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| TelinArtho11-22-04, 01:31 PM | This might be better received in the character development board, but since I don't frequent that board often, I figured I'd post it here instead. My current character is preparing himself to be able to a) find a castle (less so a keep or tower) to attack and b) take over said castle and c) become a local lord to a settlement. In order to do so, I am preparing him to build up a reasonable sized army, train them and provide equipment - siege weapons included. However, logistically and statistically don't necessarily meet on my character. Here's some specifics: 1. Stats: S 17 (19 with Gauntlets of Ogre Power) D 13 C 15 I16 W 8 Ch 8 2. NG Human Fighter 6 / Wizard 3 / Spellsword 1; Owl Familiar 3. Skills: Swim, Ride (horse), Handle Animal, Climb, Wilderness Lore, Intimidate, Spot, Knowledge (arcane), Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), Concentration 4. Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Expertise, Dodge, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialist (scimitar), Mobility, Scribe Scroll, Still Spell, Alertness (from familiar) 5. Next feat will be Improved Critical - my character has been focused on that goal for a while... Before I get too far - realize that I am using 3.0 and the Spellsword from Tome and Blood (not Complete Warrior). So the first thing that strikes to me is the charisma of 8. He's not the most personable of persons. Building on charisma wouldn't hurt in itself, but at the same time, I wouldn't be increasing my other stats. I have ability increases at 12th, 16th and 20th coming up - so the best I could assume (barring wishes) is to improve it up to "average." Next on the list is leadership. My DM has already said that he was willing to forego the need for leadership as a feat as long as I was willing to roleplay it out (which I am more than willing to do). However, for a single cohort - I could see this working. To start working up an army - having leadership as a character-defining feat seems reasonable. Going along with the assumption that I am going to be building a small army of trained men and women - what would you do with remaining level increases, ability increases, skill selection, and feat selection? My current ideas include: Level advancement: 11th (Spellsword 2), 12th (Spellsword 3), 13th (Wizard 4), 14th (Spellsword 5), 15th (Spellsword 6), 16th (Wizard 5), 17th (Spellsword 7), 18th (Spellsword 8), 19th (Wizard 6), 20th (Spellsword 9). This would bring me to a caster level of 10 and a BAB of +15. Ability increases: 12th (str), 16th (cha), 20th (cha) Skills: pick up Knowledge (siege engineering), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility), Sense Motive; Improve - Craft (calligraphy) and Intimidate Feats: 12th (improved critical - scimitar), 15th (leadership?), 16th (bonus from wizard) (craft wand), 18th (mounted combat), 20th (bonus from Spellsword) (ride-by-attack) In addition, for the current quest, my party members and I are compensated GREATLY for our tasks. Although we have the option for monetary payment, we usually opt for magic items. As far as I know, we are on the last leg of that quest, so I may only be able to request one item or one sum of gold. In the past I have requested a Scabbard of Keen Edges (15kgp) and improved armor (Dwarven Plate +2 (14.5kgp)). I think we can probably get something up to around 25kgp if there's a decent reason for it, but most of the items I have been thinking of are more of the combat-oriented type things that I am likely to need (improve my scimitar or armor or otherwise make me harder to hit (such as cloak of displacement). However, going on this build an army bent - what items would you recommend? For reference material, I have the PHB, DMG, MMI, MMII and Fiend Folio. If you suggest something that's not in one of these books - a quick note on what they would do would be great. /d |
| Mikal11-22-04, 01:41 PM | Take the Might makes Right Feat from Races of Faerun if your DM allows it. strength mod rather then cha mod when taking the feat leadership. that should handle your cohorts and core followers. Beyond that, have your cohort be a high charisma/wisdom type(specifically seek him out), and have him be the poster boy, while you start kingdom building, with him advising you. |
| lantzer11-22-04, 02:16 PM | I agree that your character is not suited to be a leader without some improvements. He can overcome his deficiency in charisma with attention to the appropriate skills. First, define why he has a low charisma: 1) Remember that charisma is a measure of the force of personality of the character. Is he a shy, self-effacing sort? A self-absorbed standoffish person? A buffoon that nobody takes very seriously? Is his manner merely distracting, like a man with a crossed eyes and a nasal whine? Whatever you choose, don't take it too far - an 8 is only a -1, after all. 2) Social skills can make up for a lot. If your character is serious about becoming a leader of men rather than just a thug, here are some skills that would be a good investment for skill points: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Perform (oratory), Knowledge (finances). Other skills may also help in separating a born ruler from the biggest thug in town. One thing that a lot of fighter players overlook is the usefulness of the feat Skill Focus. You don't get a lot of skill points, but you _do_ get a lot of feats. As for items - anything that boosts charisma or wisdom. Bear in mind that you need to decide for yourself how to grow your character - the best leaders aren't always the biggest, baddest Mofos. When it comes to money - It's better to lead through reputation and charisma than through having lotsa cash. Mercenaries are expensive, fickle, and loyal only to the paymaster, and only as long as they're likely to keep living to get paid. 3) And something every smart gang leader and feudal lord learns eventually - to earn loyalty, you have to give loyalty. |
| Board_Rider11-22-04, 02:20 PM | Take the Might makes Right Feat from Races of Faerun.. Damn...beat me to it!! If you are really bent on building that army and, depending on your DM's style, how realistic/hard he makes it I would reccomend dropping those magic items as repayment for your quests. Take the money. Armies cost lots of money. Weapons/armor, food, lodging and training all eat up resources quick. Secondly you will probaly want to get skills in Diplomacy pronto so that people don't think that your new army is not meant as invaders as well as having the added benefit of dealing with lords for agreements. Again, depends on campaign style and how much your character will be used once the army is built. If you take Improved Critical as a Feat you will not need the scabbard. Check this, but I think Keen and this Feat do not stack...not sure though. Oh if you want get a Cloak of Charisma if you can. |
| TelinArtho11-22-04, 02:50 PM | Just to start off quickly - Board Rider - I'm using 3.0 - so Improved Crit and Keen do stack. Wasn't aware of the Might Makes Right feat - allows you to use Str over Cha, but in what circumstances? If it is just Leadership - I don't know that I'll be taking it. Regardless, my character really isn't really a "thug" as it is, but he's a bit over the top on bravado, and has a tendency to overtalk himself (this is how I've explained my lack of Charisma). If someone takes exception to him, he's more likely to talk trash then to pull out his sword to flay him... but he's capable to do so if need be... In any case, I definitely missed some of the skills that would make sense. I may have to substitute the cloak for a shirt of Charisma (as I'm currently torn between two other cloaks - Cape of the Mountebank (Dimension Door 1/day) and the Cloak of Displacement (20% or 50% miss chance continuously)). Really, while I don't feel my charisma is horrible, it will certainly be more difficult to build an army if I don't improve it. Leadership, similarly, will be taken because it will help with the idea of my character wanting a small army. I am definitely thinking about taking the money, instead of the item for this next leg of the quest. If it truly is a lot, I do have a bag of holding to store it in while I work up to it. Armies do cost quite a bit and my character, at the moment that is, is notoriously broke... I'm not sure of the viability of getting skill focus. Yes it would indeed be useful, but at what level? At 12th, I'm already spoken for - then I've got 15th and 18th only. If I pick up leadership, then I've got one shot at it. Luckily, with my character's high intelligence and being human, I get 6 skill points/level - which is a big help. If I was planning on picking up more fighter levels, it wouldn't really make much of a difference, as I'd only open up one slot to take the skill focus in (as it isn't one of the options for selection), unless Leadership is one of the warrior feat options (I don't remember). Lastly, my goal isn't to "buy" an army, but rather to build one up through reputation and good will. My character (and his party members) have been on a fairly high-profile quest through many of the lands on the continent, and have the option to call in "favors" from some of the lesser lordships around. In addition, after the current quest is over, my character and one of the others (Barbarian Sorceress) are planning to find and take out a giant that wronged us not too long ago. If I can get a small contingent built up for that endeavor (say a small strike force of 5), I think I'd have a solid foundation to build upon. I'd probably look about for a bard to adequately chronicle my conquests as well... |
| Jefuri no Oni11-22-04, 03:56 PM | Here's an idea. Try PAYING your army. You don't need the leadership feat to have an army if you have enough money. The leadership feat only represents people who are complete fanatics about you and who will follow you thorugh thick and thin and continue to follow you even if your coffers run dry. Even then you should be paying your followers so they stay happy. Not every lord in the world has the leadership feat or even a high charisma (or intelligence and wisdom for that matter quite a few of them are down right stupid), many were born into their position or have a lot of money often both. Your character is a leg up on those types of leaders already because he has a high intelligence. Just hire some professional soldiers to be your army and try to talk the most charismatic of the other party memebers into being the field commander. This person is the one most of the grunts will have the most contact with and could be the person who gives morale boosting speaches. You can than take advantage of your character's superior intellect and be a more behind the scenes style general. You will come up with the battle plans and possibly cast a battle turning spell once in a while. Even still a cloak of charisma +2 to bring you up to average can't hurt. |
| TelinArtho11-22-04, 04:25 PM | Well obviously I'd be paying my army. However, I disagree that the leadership feat gives you fanatic followers - they are simply followers. They will leave if they are treated poorly (either by my character or by the circumstances my character puts them in). Hiring an army is an option - but even then, I will need some amount of diplomacy, in order to effectively convince them that joining my army now (where I have no one) is better than whatever they are doing currently. I need incentives. Money is one thing that could be used. Reputation, glory and past acts are other alternatives. I'm hesitant to get the other party members involved in my schemes to make an army. The Barbarian Sorceress is bent on retrieving a lost artifact that she and some of the other party members encountered that allows the domination of dinosaurs - she wants a dinosaur army... She's definitely the most charismatic, but has personality quirks aside. She's in agreement with me about the quest to kill the giant because she actually died in that battle (she's died a few times...). The next character is a pure sorceress - but she's new to the party and while her charisma is good - my character isn't quite sure about her yet. There is an NPC (PCNPC) cleric that I run on the side when we don't have a fourth player (which is pretty common these days), and while he may be willing to help - his charisma is as poor as mine (ironically enough - 8 as well...). Other characters who show up infrequently: (scaredy-cat) elf rogue (had 11hps at 7th level because he has a -2 Con modifier...), gnome dog-rider fighter, human cleric (this character agrees with mine frequently, but he hasn't shown up for a game in months...), monk/barbarian/something else - don't know much about him (he generally doesn't trust my character...), and a master wizard (that is, he's only taken wizard levels) - but I've never been in the game session with him - so I don't know his goals... I'm less likely to be a leader from the back ranks than a front-line commander. Maybe after I've truly built up a force, I'll ensure my line by taking the back line - chessboard control type role. -------------------------------- Okay, so how about the army itself? What would any of you want in a personal army? (remember - my character is NG - so creatures should be similarly aligned...) /d |
| Board_Rider11-22-04, 04:34 PM | Yeah, wasn't sure about Keen and Improved Critical in 3.0. I play 3.5. While your group of 5 may want to serve out of loyalty, awe, to latch onto you or whatever an "army" will want payment of some sort. An award winning personality (which you say your character doesn't have anyway) and the belief of your beliefs can carry an army so far. Add to the fact your "notoriously" broke and some may want, and probably will, fight with/for you but I can only imagine for a short time. Take a look at todays armed forces as an example. I did my stint for patriotism and adventure, then for the guys around me but ultimately, in the begining, I wanted money and things for school. Kind of the same thing here. Sure they'll join for the prestige of riding with you but, hey, a soldier needs gold to get drunk and shake the fuzz off. How many people were you going for chief? Just the 5, or more? |
| TelinArtho11-22-04, 04:50 PM | I'm hoping to get five to start with - I'd imagine all first level fighters or something similar. I've got time to recruit them, and time to build up some funds. With the five, I hope I can bring them to my first real conquest - which is to go after this giant that has wronged my party and I (specifically by killing one of our party members and by taking a good chunk of our items and equipment). While I realize the low-level fighters will have no business fighting a giant, the giant has orcs and other underlings to help him out - which are little more than a nuissance to the current group. (and just for the record - if I have the option of getting higher level people, I will take it. I just figure that 1st level, maybe 2nd is all I can start off with...) Even if I am broke most of the time, my party and I are paid very handsomely for the things we do. It will not be a difficult thing to build up enough money to take care of my initially small contingent. After I start building a following, I surely will need to look into permanent forms of income, but I'll have to burn that bridge when I get there. Giving some more thought to the group of 5, I'm thinking mounted cavalry would be a good starting point. I've got the extra horses at my disposal and I've got a fair amount in the ride skill (just no riding feats). Another option would to be for a good mix of underlings - such as a fighter or two, a cleric, a spellcaster, etc. As I said before - I'm going to try to get a bard to help out with the reknown thing too... |
| Jefuri no Oni11-22-04, 06:00 PM | Well obviously I'd be paying my army. However, I disagree that the leadership feat gives you fanatic followers - they are simply followers. They will leave if they are treated poorly (either by my character or by the circumstances my character puts them in). Well obviously they leave if you treat them poorly. That's what the -2 modifyer to leadership score for cruelty and cuasing the death of other followers is for. Only a foolish leader endangers his most loyal followers by putting them in the front lines (unless he's really really desperate). Your followers are your top administrators, accountants, lieutenants, the men in charge of the security at your stronghold (or future stronghold), and other important people in positions of trust. I have a question. If you don't think the leadership feat gives followers that are extremely loyal, than how are they different from another joe you hire to do the same job? Why would a PC ever want to burn a feat to get something that he could get by burning a couple gold pieces? |
| TelinArtho11-22-04, 10:19 PM | Well, I guess I'm reading more into your use of the word "fanatic" - as that is usually applied to those who will in fact follow their leader, purpose, cause to the death... That would not necessarily be the case of the followers received by leadership. Yes, leadership would be giving a relatively better crew that has its loyalty - but I would hardly label them as fanatic. Just a matter of semantics then. As to why someone would burn a feat on it - I'm not really sure. In the campaign in which I play, I'm not required to have it as long as I'm willing to roleplay it. I'll probably take it anyway as a character development angle (to help justify the followers even though I've got a low Cha modifier). In my campaign - it is the same. As long as the players are willing to work for it - I don't necessarily require the feat (unless of course they are looking for a truly fantastic cohort - but that's another thing entirely...) /d |
| Jefuri no Oni11-22-04, 11:05 PM | As to why someone would burn a feat on it - I'm not really sure. In the campaign in which I play, I'm not required to have it as long as I'm willing to roleplay it. I'll probably take it anyway as a character development angle (to help justify the followers even though I've got a low Cha modifier). In my campaign - it is the same. As long as the players are willing to work for it - I don't necessarily require the feat (unless of course they are looking for a truly fantastic cohort - but that's another thing entirely...) /d I guess I'm also envisioning a much bigger organization than you did too. I always thought the purpose of the Leadership feat was so that you could have cohorts who are really out there (yes you can actually have more than 1 no where in the DMG does it say you are limited to 1) and so that you could lead the equivelent of a small country. Your followers are your administrators, accountants, advisors, top military officers, and other forms of managment that you need to run a big organization. The rest of the thousands in your army would be paid soldiers, and other people like that. That is what you burn a feat for. Anyway I suppose since your killing a giant and taking a keep you really don't need that many followers. Probably for you the cloak of charisma mercenary route is the best way to go. |
| allenchan11-22-04, 11:22 PM | Ive had a lot of experiance with leadership NE characters can have Leadership, too. And, obviously, they would treat their followers poorly. You dont have to pay your followers, thats what makes them different then Mercs, and the feat so good. the -2 is only a one time deal, it does not stack. Also note the -2 is only for your Cohort's death, not followers'. A warlord isnt going to be punished because he takes soldier out onto the battlefield and they die, they expected it. A LE tyrant wouldnt be punished for sacrificing his followers to Bane on an alter, they were expecting it. etc etc |
| TelinArtho11-23-04, 09:35 AM | Actually, I do envision myself with a significant army at some point. Right now, however, my character is only 10th level and is still traveling heavily - which makes raising an army more difficult. The quest to take care of the giant is but one thing that my character wants to do. There are a number of other quests I could partake in, and one of them, in my character's mind, is to take a castle by force. Allenchan - I understand that a NE or LE character may choose not to pay his followers, but I don't think that's too relavent here - as I'm going to be paying my followers and my character is NG. As far as having multiple "cohorts" - I'd probably hesitate against this, unless the leadership score is significant, which in my case it won't be for quite a while. The implication is that the cohort would be a trusted personal advisor. If the character has more than one - one cohort would be at odds with the other cohort(s). I don't think it would be a healthy relationship really. I suppose exceptions do exist - but I think my character will be staying away from it. When the character has a high leadership score, I could see having multiple cohorts to control various groups of your followers. /d |
| TelinArtho11-23-04, 04:06 PM | Alright - I'm starting to get a little apprehensive about what I will need in order to form and maintain my small army (to begin with) and to help it grow and expand. To some, this plan will seem slow I'm sure - but there's still plenty of planning I will have to go through. Step One: Small Strike Force This will be the initial force I use to take care of the [insert expletive] giant that wronged my party and I in the recent past. I expect these will be all low-level and probably pretty restricted to the standard PHB races. Given this, I have other guidelines: a. 2-3 fighter types (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and to a lesser extent Paladin) b. one main spellcaster type (arcane or divine) c. one cleric (if the spellcaster above is arcane, I will definitely need a separate cleric. If not, then these are combined) d. one bard - less as a fighting member, more as a herald of my great deeds to help me recruit later. Obviously the bard will help bolster the rest of the troops too though. e. Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Human, but not Gnome or Halfling. Half-orcs are a possibility, but probably will be a rarity. f. No Monks, rogues or druids. Personally I hate monks; Rogues will be useful later on, but for this group I don't think they will fit too well. Druids are similarly fine later on, but I don't think they will be fitting here. g. All should be able to ride horses proficiently. The front line fighters will have heavy warhorses, the spellcaster(s) and bard will have light warhorses. Eventually, they will become my elite cavalry. Now that I have that started, here's where the money comes in. If anyone was wondering just how expensive an army is - remember I'm working with 5 people here... (Assuming 3 Fighters, 1 Cleric, 1 Bard) Initial Costs: Starting incentives: 100gp/follower = 500gp 3 Heavy Warhorses @ 400gp/horse = 1200gp 2 Light Warhorse @ 150gp/horse = 300gp 3 Heavy Horses @ 200gp/horse = 600gp 3 military saddles @ 20gp/saddle = 60gp 2 Riding saddles @ 10gp/saddle = 20gp 3 Pack Saddles @ 5gp/saddle = 15gp 8 Bit & Bridle @ 2gp/set = 16gp 3 Chainmail Barding @ 600gp/barding = 1800gp 2 Studded Leather barding @ 100gp/barding = 200gp 3 Heavy Lances @ 10gp/lance = 30gp 3 Long Swords @ 15gp/sword = 45gp 3 Light Maces @ 5gp/mace = 15gp 3 Daggers @ 2gp/dagger = 6gp 1 Heavy Mace @ 12gp/mace = 12gp 1 Heavy Crossbow @ 50gp/crossbow = 50gp 50 bolts @ 1gp/10 bolts = 5gp 1 Comp. Long Bow @ 100gp/bow = 100gp 50 arrows @ 1gp/20 arrows = 2.5gp 1 Quarterstaff @ 0gp/staff = 0gp 5 Scale Mail @ 50gp/armor = 250gp 4 Lg. Wood Shields @ 7gp/shield = 28gp Total Costs = 5,254gp, 5sp Weekly costs: 8 extra horses: feed, stabling, general care @ 6sp/day/horse (5sp stabling, 5cp feed, 5cp general care) = 33gp, 6sp/week 5 followers @ 1gp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 35gp/week Total per week = 68gp, 6sp/week |
| TelinArtho11-23-04, 05:22 PM | Step Two: Build Medium Force This will be my main infantry and will be the setup to take on the castle. While I build up this faction and train them with actual experience, I will be investigating possible areas that would be good to lay siege to. I will probably hire a few experts to research the areas I’m interested in to help my situation. Also, I’ll be getting a crew to man two ballistae that I plan on purchasing. Each ballista will need a heavy horse to roll it onto the battlefield This force will be comprised of 20 individuals, most of which will be warriors and fighters. I will probably pick up at least one character of a special type (a good ogre or a centaur for instance), but that’s not required. Also, I’ll be expanding my magic possibilities with at least 1 more arcane caster and 2-3 clerics. When I am ready to build this force, the original five will receive a raise for their continued service to 1gp, 1sp/day/person. Initial costs: (assuming 15 warriors, 3 clerics, 1 wizard and 1 rogue, also 2 siege engineers, 2 experts on geography, nobility, local history) Starting Incentives: 25gp/warrior, 50gp/other = 825gp 15 short swords @ 10gp/sword = 150gp 15 glaives @ 8gp/polearm = 120gp 16 daggers @ 2gp/dagger = 32gp 3 heavy maces @ 12gp/mace = 36gp 1 quarterstaff @ 0gp/staff = 0gp 1 rapier @ 20gp/sword = 20gp 4 Light crossbows @ 35gp/crossbow = 105gp 200 bolts @ 1gp/10 bolts = 15gp 18 studded leather @ 25gp/armor = 450gp 1 leather armor @ 10gp/armor = 10gp 18 small wooden shields @ 3gp/shield = 45gp 2 Ballistae @ 500gp/ballista = 1000gp 100 Ballista bolts @ 1gp/bolt = 100gp 2 Heavy Horses @ 200gp/horse = 400gp 2 Bit & Bridle @ 2gp/set = 4gp Total New Costs = 3,437gp Weekly costs: 15 warriors @ 8sp/day/person (3sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 84gp/week 5 new followers @ 1gp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 35gp/week 2 experts, 2 siege engineers @ 1gp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 28gp/week 5 followers @ 1gp, 1sp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 1-3sp personal) = 38gp, 5sp/week 10 extra horses: feed, stabling, general care @ 6sp/day/horse (5sp stabling, 5cp feed, 5cp general care) = 42gp/week Total per week = 227gp, 5sp/week |
| TelinArtho11-23-04, 05:22 PM | Step Three: Build up superior force At this point, I hope I’ve got a steady income, because otherwise, I may need to find a way to cut costs – and wages would be one possibility. I’m assuming with the above force, I’ll be able to take on a small area – maybe even work out an agreement with a local lord to help pay for things. Depending on what kind of financial support I have will be the major factor in determining the size of my growing army. At this point, I should have a castle and a supporting town to build me items and to pay taxes. Given the size of the army, I’m probably looking at a sizeable city to be honest – so maybe this isn’t so realistic. Let’s work it out though – just so I have a frame of reference. In addition to the regular troops, I’d be adding a couple of catapults and ballistae to complement my army. Siege towers and rams are not out of the question either. I’m assuming that some of the original two groups will have some emerging leaders to take up 5 separate units of 20 people. Initial costs: (assuming 100 warriors, 3 clerics, 3 wizards, 4 rogues, 5 siege engineers, 20 siege crew) Starting incentives: 25gp/warrior, crew member; 50gp/other = 3750gp 120 short swords @ 10gp/sword = 1200gp 100 glaives @ 8gp/polearm = 800gp 100 daggers @ 2gp/dagger = 200gp 3 heavy maces @ 12gp/mace = 36gp 3 quarterstaff @ 0gp/staff = 0gp 4 rapier @ 20gp/sword = 80gp 7 Light crossbows @ 35gp/crossbow = 245gp 350 bolts @ 1gp/10 bolts = 35gp 103 studded leather @ 25gp/armor = 2575gp 24 leather armor @ 10gp = 240gp 103 small wooden shields @ 3gp/shield = 309gp 2 Heavy Catapults @ 800gp/catapult = 1600gp 2 Light Catapults @ 550gp/catapult = 1100gp 1 Ballista @ 500gp/ballista = 500gp 50 ballista bolts @ 1gp/bolt = 50gp 5 Heavy Horses @ 200gp/horse = 1000gp 5 Bit & Bridle @ 2gp/set = 10gp Total costs = 13,730gp Weekly costs: 120 warriors, siege crew @ 8sp/day/person (3sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 672gp/week 15 warriors @ 9sp/day/person (3sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 1-3sp personal) = 94gp, 5sp/week 15 new followers @ 1gp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 105gp 5 followers @ 1gp, 1sp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 1-3sp personal) = 38.5gp/week 5 new siege engineers @ 1gp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 0-2sp personal) = 35gp 2 experts, 2 siege engineers @ 1gp, 1sp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 1-3sp personal) = 30.8gp/week 5 elite cavalry @ 1gp, 2sp/day/person (5sp lodging, 3sp food/5sp rations, 2-4sp personal) = 42gp/week 15 horses: feed, stabling, general care @ 6sp/day/horse (5sp stabling, 5cp feed, 5cp general care) = 68gp/week Total per week = 1085gp, 8sp/week |
| TelinArtho11-25-04, 01:09 AM | The Saga Continues... So I've worked out some specifics and with a player I know, sat down and tested my 5-person army led by my character up against the hill giant and 10 of his ogres. Admittedly, we both made errors in how it was played, but I am amazed how much of a difference my character has undergone. In the original battle, it was myself (Fighter 6/Wizard 1), and two other players (Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 5 and Cleric 7) against the hill giant and a dozen or so of the ogres. The battle started at quite a distance, and none of us had horses or significant cover - so the giant just threw boulders at us. The barbarian ran up and got pommelled by the ogres and by the time my character had joined up - he was downed in the next round and I was surrounded by 7-8 ogres. I surrendered and was lucky to make it out of there with just some of my more precious belongings taken away (about 7k worth of stuff). In my test scenario, I am now a 10th level character (Fighter 6/Wizard 3/Spellsword 1) and I was using my five hired men to work with me. I outfitted them as I had planned (heavy warhorses in barding for the fighters, light warhorses for the cleric and the bard; reasonable equipment for 2nd level characters. I knew (after I saw my stats) that I'd be able to defeat the encounter if it got down to straight fighting (I'll explain why in a minute), but my goal of the encounter was to take the 11 opponents down without losing a member of my group. As it turns out, it seems I should have had the five of them run away... In the original encounter, my AC was 20 - but I had expertise and dodge to work with - to boost it up to 26 in melee (against one opponent - 25 versus the rest). The giant has 2 attacks at +16/+11 - meaning he was hitting me quite regularly once we got into melee (which by the way - we never did in that first battle). In fact, his ranged attack (+8/+3 with boulders) was good enough to knock down my HP low enough that I wasn't too esctatic about a face to face fight... In this new encounter, I now sport a 26 AC to start with (which can be boosted to 32). At a 32 AC - even his +16 attack is likely to miss... The ogres needed natural 20s the whole way. In all fairness to my group of five - they very effectively took out 7 of the 10 ogres on their own, while my character dealt with the giant. However, as might be implied by the fact that they didn't get all 10 - all of them died in the end. Something about only being able to take a single hit in most cases (the fighters could take two each - unless the ogres rolled the maximum or near to it... which they did...). So a couple of thoughts on how to make my small group survivable in this situation: 1. Improve their AC. The fighters were sporting Scale mail, Lg. Shield and a Dex bonus of +1 for a total of 17. I did get the cleric to successfully cast Bane on the opponents which affected all but one of the ogres (but did get the giant too) - but in the end, the fighters were just too easy to hit. In order to fix this though is a large expense (to boost up to 18 would be an extra 300gp (chain mail), to 21 would be an extra 4350 (full plate). AC21 seems reasonable, but that more than doubles my initial outlay for the group of five - so I don't think it is terribly reasonable. 2. The damage dealing power of Heavy Lances from horseback is IMPRESSIVE. I've never had the opportunity to use charge with a lance from horseback - now that I have, I like the idea of dealing 20 damage with a non-crit from a 2nd level fighter without doing anything too tricky. 3. The ranged damage dealing power of a Cleric is minimal when dealing with long range and a heavy crossbow (or even a light one). At the starting range, he had a -8 to hit because of 4 range increments - so he effectively needed a 20; when the battle was closer - they were rushing up to him and he didn't even have much of a shot. 4. The bard's singing is effective, but not very important to me... He also missed on every shot he made (4 in all). However, since his inclusion is more to chronicle my group's progress and to earn my group reknown - I think I'll keep him in there. |
| TelinArtho11-28-04, 12:03 AM | Further thoughts: What's a "fair" wage for my hired people. Even if you don't consider them mercenaries - and thus have a small amount of loyalty to me - I do plan on paying them to the best of my ability. Unfortunately, I'm looking at the DMG, and the people I have to reference have the following: Mercenary 2sp (1st lvl warrior) Mercenary Horseman 4sp (1st lvl warrior) Mercenary Leader 6sp (2nd lvl warrior) These costs are per day. In my case, I'm providing the horses and equipment, but as near as I can tell, I can't get the price down to that kind of level. In each of my cases, I break out how much is paid to each character per day depending on if they are in town or out in the field. However, I have a hard time believing that an experienced adventurer would be willing to work with a 1-2sp take home to start with. I was thinking it might be best to give them a partial share of my treasure - but I'm not sure if that would be enough either. At the start - I'm getting 1/4 to 1/3 of the treasure (because there is usually 2-3 other players). If I set aside half of my treasure for the initial five - I'm looking at giving them 1/10th of my treasure or 1/40th -1/30th of the treasure overall. How much of a difference does it make if I intend on providing them the better equipment that they will want/need (so they will not need to worry about saving up for improvements, etc)? /d |
| Yade11-29-04, 12:40 AM | Rember that "Money talks BS walks". An army of mercenary soldiers are interested in being paid not how friendly or charismatic you are. Tell your DM that CHA based leadership is assuming that you are a nice guy and care what your "hirelings" think. Use your knowlegde skills and your profession to hire soldiers to follow you and treat it like a miltary situation; where a person's CHA might be 3 and they could be the commander of a large company of men. Remember that CHA 8 is about the same as most convention going D&D players, so you are not a leper you're just a little gruff with people and not so concerned with how they feel about it. |
| TelinArtho11-29-04, 10:32 AM | Well, as I said before, I'm obviously going to be paying my army. Hopefully, I can figure out what a good "wage" is for each member as well. I don't think my character's CHA is necessarily the problem with getting an army. However, the method around it is really to exert my character's reknown and good will to build up a following - which is very much in line with the leadership feat and a reasonable CHA. That being said, I think it will just take my character a longer amount of time to build up his forces, because of his lack of CHA, and that it will follow, more or less, the chart for leadership as indicated by my character. So any thoughts on what a "good" wage is for my first group of five? I was originally thinking they would be 3 1st lvl fighters, 1 1st lvl cleric and 1 1st lvl bard - but now I'm thinking they would all be 2nd level. /d |
| TelinArtho11-29-04, 04:05 PM | Well, after thinking about this all weekend, I have come up with a more "streamlined" starting crew. I've provided stats for all of them, assuming they will all be human and of 2nd level and have the exact skills I require. I realize that the real world situation may not be as perfect - but this is just for example... One note about the entry for "supplies" - this is more of a method for transporting supplies, rather than the supplies themselves. As noted in each person, there is a food item - so assuming I'd have a good idea of the number of days I'd be out with them, the horses would likely be carrying that kind of baggage as well as the tents, any torches, etc. In later steps, I will be grabbing wagons and carts to transport the supplies of larger groups, but for the 6 characters (mine plus these 5) three horses should be more than enough. I upgraded the cleric's and the bard's horses to heavy warhorses because I found they were getting so encumbered before that they were hardly moving faster than regular speed. As it stands, with the lighter barding I've provided (more because of cost than because I was trying to lighten the load), the fighters and the cleric will still lightly encumber their horses. Given the situation, it might be reasonable at a later date to equip each of the horses with some form of strength improvement magic item (a saddle or something similar). With my costs adjusted, the difference here is not very significantly different from my original listing. The original listing was about 800gp more and had a weekly cost of 68gp, 6sp. I've already done some estimating on the later steps and have found significant savings there - mostly in terms of the weekly costs. However, this also assumes that my living wage that I provide is enough to make the people happy... 3 Mounted Fighters Per fighter: 1 Hvy Warhorse (400gp), 1 Military Saddle (20gp), 1 Bit& Bridle (2gp), 1 Studded Leather Barding (100gp), 1 Hvy Lance (10gp), 1 Long Sword (15gp), 1 Lgt Mace (5gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Banded Mail (250gp), 1 Lg. Wooden Shield (7gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Fighter, HD 2d10+4; hp 20, 18, 17; AC 19; init +1; speed 20ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 13 (+1) W 10 Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+5/R+1/W+0; Skills: Ride (5 ranks) +8, Handle Animal (5 ranks) +4, Climb (5 ranks) -1, Jump (5 ranks) -1; Feats: Mounted Combat, Weapon Focus (Lance), Power Attack, Ride-by-Attack; Hvy Lance +5 hit (1d8+2, x3) or Long Sword +4 hit (1d8+2, 19-20/x2); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 24, 31, 29; AC 17; init +1; speed 50ft (35ft in barding); S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg) Cost per fighter: 821gp Total cost of 3 fighters: 2463gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town:3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 17gp, 8sp, 5cp for one week in field; 25gp, 2sp in town 1 Mounted Cleric Per cleric: 1 Hvy Warhorse (400gp), 1 Military Saddle (20gp), 1 Bit & Bridle (2gp), 1 Studded Leather Barding (100gp), 1 Hvy Mace (12gp), 1 Hvy Crossbow (50gp), 50 Bolts (5gp), 1 Scale Mail (50gp), Lg. Wooden Shield (7gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Cleric, HD 2d8+4; hp 16; AC 15; init +3; speed 20ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 15 (+2) Ch 13 (+1); Saves: F+5/R-1/W+5; Skills: Ride (2 ranks) +1, Healing (4 ranks) +6, Concentration (4 ranks) +6, Spellcraft (3 ranks) +3; Feats: Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace); Hvy Mace +3 hit (1d8+1) or Hvy Crossbow +0 hit (1d10. 19-20/x2, 100ft); Spells [0th - 4] Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic [1st - 3+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith (x2), Bless; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Sun (Greater Turning), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 21; AC 17; init +1; speed 50ft (35ft in barding); S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per cleric: 656gp Total cost of 1 cleric: 656gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 5gp, 9sp, 5cp for one week in field; 8gp, 4sp in town 1 Mounted Bard Per bard: 1 Hvy Warhorse (400gp), 1 Military Saddle (20gp), 1 Bit & Bridle (2gp), 1 Studded Leather Barding (100gp), 1 Quarterstaff (0gp), 1 Composite Long Bow (100gp), 50 arrows (2gp, 5sp), 1 Studded Leather Armor (25gp), 1 Tent (10gp), Harp (5gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Bard, HD 2d6; hp 9; AC 14; init +1; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 13 (+1) C 10 I 14 (+2) W 12 (+1) Ch 15 (+2); Saves F+0/R+4/W+4; Skills: Ride (2 ranks) +3, Perform (5 ranks) +7, Knowledge (arcana) (5 ranks) +7, Use Magic Device (5 ranks) +7, Sense Motive (5 ranks) +6, Gather Information (5 ranks) +7, Diplomacy (5 rank), +7, Intuit Direction (1 rank) +2; Feats: Expertise, Point Blank Shot; Quarterstaff +0 hit (1d6-1) or Comp. Long Bow +2 hit (1d8, x3 crit, 110ft); Spells: [0th - 3] Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Daze, Flare [1st - 1] Expeditious Retreat, Grease; Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate); Heavy Warhorse HD 4d8+12; hp 30; AC 17; init +1; speed 50ft; S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per bard: 664gp, 5sp Total cost of 1 bard: 664gp, 5sp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 5gp, 9sp, 5cp for one week in field; 8gp, 4sp in town Supplies 3 Hvy Horse (200gp per), 3 Pack Saddles (5gp per), 3 Bit & Bridles (2gp per) Total cost of Supplies: 621gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 3gp, 1sp, 5cp for one week in field; 10gp, 5sp in town Total cost of 5 combatant units and supplies: 4404gp, 5sp Total Weekly Upkeep: 32gp, 9sp for one week in field; 52gp, 5sp in town |
| TelinArtho11-29-04, 04:59 PM | Again, these are all stats assuming I'd be able to find the "perfect" human for the job. I'm not sure about warriors, but would you use the standard array for them? It doesn't make much difference to me. Also, for the expert, I used (6 + int mod + 1 human) skill points/lvl to assign skills. For some reason in the 3.0 SRD I don't see the number of skills they get - so I just had to wing it. Obviously I'd cut it down if I've put too many. Also, the choice of skills is kind of arbitrary - as I'm not sure what other skills a siege engineer might have... Instead of upgrading to Chain Shirt barding, I could easily make it scale barding for the three mounted fighters and the cleric. This would drop my costs by 800gp for a meager 5 lbs gain on each of the horses. 3 Mounted Fighter Per fighter Upgrades: 1 Chain Shirt Barding (400gp), 1 Full Plate Armor (1500gp), 1 Lg. Steel Shield (20gp) Stat Block: 3rd lvl Fighter, HD 3d10+6; hp 26, 25, 23; AC 21; init +1; speed 20ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 13 (+1) W 10 Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+5/R+2/W+1; Skills: Ride (6 ranks) +9, Handle Animal (6 ranks) +5, Climb (6 ranks) +0, Jump (6 ranks) +0; Feats: Mounted Combat, Weapon Focus (Lance), Power Attack, Ride-by-Attack, Quick Draw; Hvy Lance +6 hit (1d8+2, x3) or Long Sword +5 hit (1d8+2, 19-20/x2); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 24, 31, 29; AC 18; init +1; speed 50ft (35ft in barding); S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg) Cost per fighter: 1920gp Total cost of 3 fighters: 5760gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 18gp, 4sp, 8cp for one week in field; 25gp, 8sp, 3cp in town 1 Mounted Cleric Per cleric Upgrades: 1 Chain Shirt Barding (400gp), 1 Full Plate Armor (1500gp), 1 Lg. Steel Shield (20gp) Stat Block: 3rd lvl Cleric, HD 3d8+6; hp 21; AC 19; init +3; speed 20ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 15 (+2) Ch 13 (+1); Saves: F+5/R+0/W+5; Skills: Ride (3 ranks) +2, Healing (4 ranks) +6, Concentration (4 ranks) +6, Spellcraft (3 ranks) +3, Knowledge (religion) (1 rank) +1; Feats: Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace), Brew Potion; Hvy Mace +4 hit (1d8+1) or Hvy Crossbow +1 hit (1d10, 19-20/x2, 100ft); Spells [0th - 4] Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic [1st - 3+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith (x2), Bless [2nd - 2+1] (Spiritual Weapon), Aid, Sound Burst; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Sun (Greater Turning), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 21; AC 18; init +1; speed 50ft (35ft in barding); S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per cleric: 1920gp Total cost of 1 cleric: 1920gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 6gp, 1sp, 6cp for one week in field; 8gp, 6sp, 1cp in town 1 Mounted Bard Per bard Upgrades: 1 Chain Shirt Barding (400gp) Stat Block: 3rd lvl Bard, HD 3d6; hp 12; AC 14; init +1; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 13 (+1) C 10 I 14 (+2) W 12 (+1) Ch 15 (+2); Saves F+1/R+4/W+4; Skills: Ride (3 ranks) +4, Perform (6 ranks) +8, Knowledge (arcana) (5 ranks) +7, Use Magic Device (5 ranks) +7, Sense Motive (6 ranks) +7, Gather Information (6 ranks) +8, Diplomacy (6 ranks), +8, Intuit Direction (2 ranks) +3; Feats: Expertise, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot; Quarterstaff +1 hit (1d6-1) or Comp. Long Bow +3 hit (1d8, x3, 165ft); Spells: [0th - 3] Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Daze, Flare, Prestidigitation [1st - 2] Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Protection from Evil; Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Competence); Heavy Warhorse HD 4d8+12; hp 30; AC 18; init +1; speed 50ft; S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per bard: 400gp Total cost of 1 bard: 400gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly Cost: 6gp, 1sp, 6cp for one week in field; 8gp, 6sp, 1cp in town 15 Warriors Per warrior: 1 Glaive (8gp), 1 Short Sword (10gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Studded Leather (25gp), 1 Tent/2 (10gp/2) Stat Block: 1st lvl Warrior, HD 1d8+2; hp 10 (x15); AC 14; init +1; speed 30ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 13 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+4/R+0/W+1; Skills: Intimidate (4 ranks) +3, Ride (4 ranks) +5, Jump (4 ranks) +6 Feats: Quick Draw, Power Attack; Glaive +3 hit (1d10+3 dmg) or Short Sword +3 hit (1d6+2 dmg, 19-20/x2); Cost per warrior: 50gp Total cost of 15 warriors: 750gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 1sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 2sp lodging, 5cp personal Weekly Cost: 63gp for one week in field; 57gp, 7sp, 5cp in town 3 Clerics Per cleric: 1 Hvy Mace (12gp), 1 Lgt Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 1 Studded Leather (25gp), 1 Sm. Wooden Shield (3gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Cleric, HD 1d8+2+3; hp 13 (x3); AC 13; init -1; speed 30ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 15 (+2) Ch 13 (+1) Saves F+4/R-1/W+4; Skills: Heal (4 ranks) +6, Concentration (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (religion) (2 ranks) +2, Spellcraft (2 ranks) +2; Feats: Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace), Combat Casting, Toughness; Hvy Mace +2 hit (1d8+1 dmg) or Lgt Crossbow -1 hit (1d8, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells [0th - 3] Guidance, Light, Detect Magic [1st - 2+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith, Doom; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Strength (feat of strength 1/day), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)) Cost per cleric: 90gp Total cost of 3 clerics: 270gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly Cost: 14gp, 7sp for one week in field; 14gp, 7sp in town 1 Wizard Per wizard: 1 Quarterstaff (0gp), Light Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 2 extra spells (200gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Wizard, HD 1d4+1; hp 5; AC 10; init +0; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 10 C 13 (+1) I 15 (+2) W 14 (+2) Ch 12 (+1); Saves F+1/R+0/W+4; Skills: Concentration (4 ranks) +5, Spellcraft (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (arcana) (4 ranks) +6, Scry (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (local history) (2 ranks) +4, Alchemy (2 ranks) +4; Feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation); Quarterstaff -1 hit (1d6-1 dmg) or Light Crossbow +0 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells: [0th - 3] (all in PHB) [1st - 2] Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Message, Comprehend Languages, Alarm Cost per wizard: 250gp Total cost of 1 wizard: 250gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly Cost: 4gp, 9sp for one week in field; 4gp, 9sp in town 1 Rogue Per rogue: 1 Rapier (20gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Light Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 1 Leather Armor (10gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Rogue, HD 1d6+1; hp 7; AC 14; init +2; speed 30ft; S 10 D 15 (+2) C 13 (+1) I 12 (+1) W 8 (-1) Ch 14 (+2); Saves F+1/R+3/W-1; Skills: Appraise (1 ranks) +2, Balance (2 ranks) +4, Bluff (2 ranks) +4, Climb (1 rank) +1, Disable Device (2 ranks) +3, Disguise (2 ranks) +4, Escape Artist (2 ranks) +4, Forgery (2 ranks) +3, Gather Information (2 ranks) +4, Hide (3 ranks) +5, Jump (2 ranks) +2, Listen (2 ranks) +1, Move Silently (4 ranks) +6, Open Lock (2 ranks) +4, Read Lips (2 ranks) +3, Search (2 ranks) +3, Sense Motive (1 rank) +0, Spot (2 ranks) +1, Tumble (2 ranks) +2, Use Magic Device (2 ranks) +4; Feats: Dodge, Mobility; Rapier +0 hit (1d6 dmg, 18-20/x2) or Light Crossbow +2 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2); Special: Sneak Attack +1d6 dmg; Cost per rogue: 82gp Total cost of 1 rogue: 82gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly Cost: 4gp, 9sp for one week in field; 4gp, 9sp in town 2 Siege Engineers Per engineer: 1 Ballista (500gp), 50 Ballista bolts (50gp), 1 Hvy Horse (200gp), 1 Bit & Bridle (2gp), 1 Tent (10gp); 1 Leather Armor (10gp), 1 Light Mace (5gp), 1 Dagger (2gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Expert, HD 1d6+1+3; hp 10 (x2); AC 13; init +1; speed 30ft; S 10 D 13 (+1) C 12 (+1) I 14 (+2) W 15 (+2) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+1/R+1/W+3; Skills: Profession (siege engineer) (4 ranks) +8, Knowledge (engineering) (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (geography) (4 ranks) +6, Craft (weaponsmith) (4 ranks) +6, Intuit Direction (4 ranks) +6, Swim (4 ranks) +4, Climb (4 ranks) +4; Feats: Skill focus (profession (siege engineer)), toughness; Light Mace +0 (1d6 dmg); Ballista (3d6 dmg, x3, 120ft, 3 round reload) Cost per Engineer: 779gp Total cost of 2 engineers: 1558gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal, 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly Cost: 11gp, 9sp for one week in field; 16gp, 8sp in town Supplies 1 Wagon (35gp), 1 Cart (20gp) Total cost of Supplies: 55gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 5sp stabling Weekly Cost: 3gp, 1sp, 5cp for one week in field; 10gp, 5sp in town Total cost of upgrading 5 combatant units, 22 new units and supplies: 11045gp Total Weekly Upkeep: 99gp, 4sp for one week in field; 99gp, 5cp in town |
| Board_Rider11-29-04, 06:12 PM | You are being very helpful to all those DM's out there who need armies... ;) It looks as if you have planned this out very well. Good Luck...you sure deserve it after all that prep. |
| TelinArtho11-29-04, 09:24 PM | I'm not sure I'm being helpful to DMs necessarily - these stats are really bare bones for the level of player I'm working with. The biggest thing that I've noticed is the fact that I have no concept of what an "acceptable" wage is - the wages that are listed for hirelings theoretically wouldn't be enough to live off of (if they lived in inns all their lives - which is not necessarily true - but how many mercs' are able to afford houses...? I am glad I took the time to work some of this out now, before I fully talk to my DM about it - as it will truly require some preparation that I haven't started on yet. ... And if you think these last two steps were impressive - you should see step 3 rewritten... /d |
| TelinArtho12-01-04, 11:51 AM | At each step, I've decided I will likely not only give the more experienced units a small raise (1-3 cp/day) but also will upgrade their equipment. As can be seen in step two - I upgraded the first five people with better barding, and with exception to the bard - better armor and a better shield. For step 3, I intend on doing this again, but I'm at a loss as to what to actually give the initial five as well as what to do with the remaining 20+. Armor upgrades are usually the main focus, but equipment improvement isn't totally out of the question - maybe masterworked weapons and armor? For the mounted people, I'm actually thinking it might be best to give them each a small selection of potions - Bull's Strength, Cure Critical Wounds, Endurance, and Heroism are all likely candidates. Later on I hope to incorporate Horseshoes of Speed, Magical weapons, Magical armor and maybe some lesser wondrous items. For the clerics and wizards, wands are always solid options and the bard can make use of some of the improved instruments as well as a magical bow. In any case, magical equipment would have to be pretty low level for step 3 - a couple of potions or maybe a magical shield/magical armor are probably the limits (1-1.5k) per person. The group of 15 can have improved armor - up to chainmail probably. That single improvement is a significant cost though (15 * 150 = 2250). By the time they are second level, they are definitely more valuable to me - but upgrading them all might be cost prohibitive. My intent is that trained units are much more valuable to me than the new hires. As such, I am willing to spend more in upgrades, even if those upgrades are going to be expensive (just picture how expensive it would be for me to upgrade in step IV...). Presumably, if I get to step 3, I'll have a method of producing items on my own as well as a steady source of income to provide for the army. If I don't, it is likely I wouldn't ever get to step 3, and its unlikely I would actually proceed to step 2 either. |
| TelinArtho12-01-04, 05:23 PM | 3 Mounted Fighter Upgrades: Chain Mail barding (600gp), Masterwork Lance (310gp), Masterwork Long Sword (315gp) Stat Block: 4rd lvl Fighter, HD 4d10+8; hp 36, 34, 31; AC 21; init +1; speed 20ft; S 16 (+3) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 13 (+1) W 10 Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+6/R+2/W+1; Skills: Ride (7 ranks) +10, Handle Animal (7 ranks) +6, Climb (7 ranks) +2, Jump (7 ranks) +2; Feats: Mounted Combat, Weapon Focus (Lance), Power Attack, Ride-by-Attack, Quick Draw, Spirited Charge; Hvy Lance +9 hit (1d8+3, x3) or Long Sword +8 hit (1d8+3, 19-20/x2); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 24, 31, 29; AC 19; init +1; S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg) Cost per unit: 1225gp Total cost: 3675gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 6cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 6cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 19gp, 1sp, 1cp for one week in field; 26gp, 4sp, 6cp in town 1 Mounted Cleric Upgrades: Chain Mail barding (600gp), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50 charges) (750gp) Stat Block: 4th lvl Cleric, HD 4d8+8; hp 29; AC 19; init +3; speed 20ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 16 (+3) Ch 13 (+1); Saves: F+6/R+0/W+7; Skills: Ride (3 ranks) +4, Healing (5 ranks) +8, Concentration (5 ranks) +7, Spellcraft (3 ranks) +3, Knowledge (religion) (2 ranks) +2; Feats: Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace), Brew Potion; Hvy Mace +5 hit (1d8+1) or Hvy Crossbow +2 hit (1d10, 19-20/x2, 100ft); Spells [0th - 5] Guidance (x2), Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic [1st - 4+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith (x3), Bless [2nd - 3+1] (Spiritual Weapon), Aid, Sound Burst, Endurance; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Sun (Greater Turning), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)); Heavy Warhorse, HD 4d8+12; hp 21; AC 19; init +1; speed 50ft; S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per unit: 1350gp Total cost: 1350gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 6cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 6cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 6gp, 3sp, 7cp for one week in field; 8gp, 8sp, 2cp in town 1 Mounted Bard Upgrades: Masterwork Harp (100gp) Stat Block: 4th lvl Bard, HD 4d6; hp 15; AC 15; init +2; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 14 (+2) C 10 I 14 (+2) W 12 (+1) Ch 15 (+2); Saves F+1/R+6/W+5; Skills: Ride (3 ranks) +6, Perform (7 ranks) +11, Knowledge (arcana) (7 ranks) +9, Use Magic Device (7 ranks) +9, Sense Motive (6 ranks) +7, Gather Information (6 ranks) +8, Diplomacy (7 ranks), +9, Intuit Direction (2 ranks) +3; Feats: Expertise, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot; Quarterstaff +2 hit (1d6-1) or Comp. Long Bow +4 hit (1d8, x3, 165ft); Spells: [0th - 3] Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Daze, Flare, Prestidigitation [1st - 3] Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Protection from Evil [2nd - 1] Tongues, Invisibility; Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Competence); Heavy Warhorse HD 4d8+12; hp 30; AC 18; init +1; speed 50ft; S 18 (+4) D 13 (+1) C 17 (+3) I 2 (-4) W 13 (+1) Ch 6 (-2), Saves F+7/R+5/W+2; Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7 Feats: Scent; 2 Hooves +6 hit (1d6+4 dmg) and bite +1 hit (1d4+2 dmg); Cost per unit: 100gp Total cost: 100gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 6cp personal; 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 6cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 6gp, 3sp, 7cp for one week in field; 8gp, 8sp, 2cp in town Supplies Upkeep/day on the field: 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 3gp, 1sp, 5cp for one week in field; 10gp, 5sp in town 15 Warriors Upgrades: Chain shirt (150gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Warrior, HD 2d8+4; hp 16 (x15); AC 14; init +1; speed 30ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 13 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+5/R+0/W+1; Skills: Intimidate (5 ranks) +4, Ride (5 ranks) +6, Jump (5 ranks) +7; Feats: Quick Draw, Power Attack; Glaive +4 hit (1d10+3 dmg) or Short Sword +4 hit (1d6+2 dmg, 19-20/x2); Cost per unit: 150gp Total cost: 2250gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 1sp, 2cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 2sp lodging, 7cp personal Weekly cost: 65gp, 1sp for one week in field; 59gp, 8sp, 5cp in town 3 Clerics Upgrades: Chain shirt (150gp), Lg. Steel Shield (20gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Cleric, HD 2d8+4+3; hp 19 (x3); AC 13; init -1; speed 30ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 15 (+2) Ch 13 (+1) Saves F+5/R-1/W+5; Skills: Heal (5 ranks) +7, Concentration (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (religion) (3 ranks) +3, Spellcraft (3 ranks) +3; Feats: Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace), Combat Casting, Toughness; Hvy Mace +3 hit (1d8+1 dmg) Lgt Crossbow +0 hit (1d8, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells [0th - 4] Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic [1st - 3+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith, Doom, Cause Fear; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Strength (feat of strength 1/day), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)) Cost per unit: 170gp Total cost: 510gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 15gp, 3sp, 3cp for one week in field; 15gp, 3sp, 3sp in town 1 Wizard Upgrades: 2 new spells (200gp) Stat Block: 2nd lvl Wizard, HD 2d4+2; hp 8; AC 10; init +0; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 10 C 13 (+1) I 15 (+2) W 14 (+2) Ch 12 (+1); Saves F+1/R+0/W+5; Skills: Concentration (5 ranks) +6, Spellcraft (5 ranks) +7, Knowledge (arcana) (5 ranks) +7, Scry (5 ranks) +7, Knowledge (local history) (2 ranks) +4, Alchemy (3 ranks) +5; Feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation); Quarterstaff +0 hit (1d6-1 dmg) or Light Crossbow +1 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells: [0th - 4] (all in PHB) [1st - 3] Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Message, Comprehend Languages, Alarm, Burning Hands, Color Spray, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat, Cause Fear, Detect Secret Cost per unit: 200gp Total cost: 200gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 5gp, 1sp, 1cp for one week in field; 5gp, 1sp, 1cp in town 1 Rogue Stat Block: 2nd lvl Rogue, HD 2d6+2; hp 10; AC 14; init +2; speed 30ft; S 10 D 15 (+2) C 13 (+1) I 12 (+1) W 8 (-1) Ch 14 (+2); Saves F+1/R+4/W-1; Skills: Appraise (1 ranks) +2, Balance (2 ranks) +4, Bluff (2 ranks) +4, Climb (1 rank) +1, Disable Device (2 ranks) +3, Disguise (2 ranks) +4, Escape Artist (2 ranks) +4, Forgery (2 ranks) +3, Gather Information (2 ranks) +4, Hide (5 ranks) +7, Jump (2 ranks) +2, Listen (4 ranks) +3, Move Silently (5 ranks) +7, Open Lock (2 ranks) +4, Read Lips (2 ranks) +3, Search (5 ranks) +6, Sense Motive (1 rank) +0, Spot (4 ranks) +3, Tumble (2 ranks) +2, Use Magic Device (2 ranks) +4; Feats: Dodge, Mobility; Rapier +1 hit (1d6 dmg, 18-20/x2) or Light Crossbow +3 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2); Special: Sneak Attack +1d6 dmg, Evasion; Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 5gp, 1sp, 1cp for one week in field; 5gp, 1sp, 1cp in town 2 Siege Engineers Stat Block: 2nd lvl Expert, HD 2d6+2+3; hp 14 (x2); AC 13; init +1; speed 30ft; S 10 D 13 (+1) C 12 (+1) I 14 (+2) W 15 (+2) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+1/R+1/W+4; Skills: Profession (siege engineer) (5 ranks) +9, Knowledge (engineering) (5 ranks) +7, Knowledge (geography) (5 ranks) +7, Craft (weaponsmith) (5 ranks) +7, Intuit Direction (5 ranks) +7, Swim (5 ranks) +5, Climb (5 ranks) +5; Feats: Skill focus (profession (siege engineer)), toughness; Light Mace +1 (1d6 dmg); Ballista (3d6 dmg, x3, 120ft, 3 round reload) Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp, 3cp personal, 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp, 3cp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 12gp, 3sp, 2cp for one week in field; 17gp, 2sp, 2cp in town 80 Warrior Per warrior: 1 Glaive (8gp), 1 Short Sword (10gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Studded Leather (25gp), 1 Tent/2 (10gp/2) Stat Block: 1st lvl Warrior, HD 1d8+2; hp 10 (x15); AC 14; init +1; speed 30ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 13 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+4/R+1/W+1; Skills: Intimidate (4 ranks) +3, Ride (4 ranks) +5, Jump (4 ranks) +6; Feats: Quick Draw, Power Attack; Glaive +3 hit (1d10+3 dmg) or Short Sword +3 hit (1d6+2 dmg, 19-20/x2); Cost per unit: 50gp Total cost: 4000gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 8cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 2sp lodging, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 29gp for one week in field; 26gp, 5sp in town 20 Archers Per archer: 1 Long Bow (75gp), 50 Arrows (2gp, 5sp), 1 Short Sword (10gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Studded Leather (25gp), 1 tent/2 (10gp/2) Stat Block: 1st lvl Warrior, HD 1d8+2; hp 10 (x15); AC 15; init +2; speed 30ft; S 12 (+1) D 15 (+2) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 13 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+4/R+2/W+1; Skills: Intimidate (4 ranks) +3, Ride (4 ranks) +6, Jump (4 ranks) +5; Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot; Long Bow +3 hit (1d8 dmg, x3, 100ft) or Short Sword +3 hit (1d6+1 dmg, 19-20/x2); Cost per unit: 119gp, 5sp Total cost: 2390gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 8cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 2sp lodging, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 11gp, 6sp for one week in field; 10gp, 6sp in town 3 Cleric Per cleric: 1 Hvy Mace (12gp), 1 Lgt Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 1 Studded Leather (25gp), 1 Sm. Wooden Shield (3gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Cleric, HD 1d8+2; hp 10 (x3); AC 13; init -1; speed 30ft; S 12 (+1) D 8 (-1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 15 (+2) Ch 13 (+1) Saves F+4/R-1/W+4; Skills: Heal (2 ranks) +4, Concentration (2 ranks) +4, Knowledge (religion) (2 ranks) +2, Spellcraft (2 ranks) +2; Feats: Weapon Focus (Hvy Mace), Combat Casting; Hvy Mace +2 hit (1d8+1 dmg) Lgt Crossbow -1 hit (1d8, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells [0th - 4] Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic [1st - 2+1] (Magic Weapon), Shield of Faith, Doom; Special: Turn Undead, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Abilities (Strength (feat of strength 1/day), War (bonus Weapon Focus feat)) Cost per unit: 90gp Total cost: 270gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly cost: 6gp, 3sp for one week in field; 6gp, 3sp in town 4 Wizard Per wizard: 1 Quarterstaff (0gp), Light Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 2 extra spells (200gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Wizard, HD 1d4+1; hp 5; AC 10; init +0; speed 30ft; S 8 (-1) D 10 C 13 (+1) I 15 (+2) W 14 (+2) Ch 12 (+1); Saves F+1/R+0/W+4; Skills: Concentration (4 ranks) +5, Spellcraft (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (arcana) (4 ranks) +6, Scry (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (local history) (2 ranks) +4, Alchemy (2 ranks) +4; Feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation); Quarterstaff -1 hit (1d6-1 dmg) or Light Crossbow +0 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2, 80ft); Spells: [0th - 3] (all in PHB) [1st - 2] Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Message, Comprehend Languages, Alarm Cost per unit: 210gp Total cost: 840gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly cost: 8gp, 4cp for one week in field, 8gp, 4sp in town 4 Rogue Per rogue: 1 Rapier (20gp), 1 Dagger (2gp), 1 Light Crossbow (35gp), 50 bolts (5gp), 1 Leather Armor (10gp), 1 Tent (10gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Rogue, HD 1d6+1; hp 7; AC 14; init +2; speed 30ft; S 10 D 15 (+2) C 13 (+1) I 12 (+1) W 8 (-1) Ch 14 (+2); Saves F+1/R+3/W-1; Skills: Appraise (1 ranks) +2, Balance (2 ranks) +4, Bluff (2 ranks) +4, Climb (1 rank) +1, Disable Device (2 ranks) +3, Disguise (2 ranks) +4, Escape Artist (2 ranks) +4, Forgery (2 ranks) +3, Gather Information (2 ranks) +4, Hide (3 ranks) +5, Jump (2 ranks) +2, Listen (2 ranks) +1, Move Silently (4 ranks) +6, Open Lock (2 ranks) +4, Read Lips (2 ranks) +3, Search (2 ranks) +3, Sense Motive (1 rank) +0, Spot (2 ranks) +1, Tumble (2 ranks) +2, Use Magic Device (2 ranks) +4; Feats: Dodge, Mobility; Rapier +0 hit (1d6 dmg, 18-20/x2) or Light Crossbow +2 hit (1d8 dmg, 19-20/x2); Special: Sneak Attack +1d6 dmg; Cost per unit: 80gp Total cost: 320gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal Weekly cost: 8gp, 4cp for one week in field, 8gp, 4sp in town 5 Siege Engineers Total: 2 Hvy Catapult (1600gp), 2 Light Catapult (1100gp), 1 Ballista (500gp), 50 Ballista Bolts (50gp); 5 Heavy Horses (1000gp), 5 Bit&Bridle (10gp), 5 tents (50gp); Per Engineer: 1 Leather Armor (10gp), 1 Light Mace (5gp), 1 Dagger (2gp) Stat Block: 1st lvl Expert, HD 1d6+1+3; hp 10 (x2); AC 13; init +1; speed 30ft; S 10 D 13 (+1) C 12 (+1) I 14 (+2) W 15 (+2) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+1/R+1/W+3; Skills: Profession (siege engineer) (4 ranks) +8, Knowledge (engineering) (4 ranks) +6, Knowledge (geography) (4 ranks) +6, Craft (weaponsmith) (4 ranks) +6, Intuit Direction (4 ranks) +6, Swim (4 ranks) +4, Climb (4 ranks) +4; Feats: Skill focus (profession (siege engineer)), toughness; Light Mace +0 (1d6 dmg); Hvy Catapult (5d6 dmg, no crit, 200ft, 8 round reload - 10 minutes to aim) or Lgt Catapult (3d6 dmg, no crit, 150ft, 5 round reload - 5 minutes to aim) or Ballista (3d6 dmg, x3, 120ft, 3 round reload) Total cost: 4395gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 2sp personal, 5cp feed for horse, 1sp general care Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 3sp lodging, 1sp personal, 5sp stabling Weekly cost: 29gp, 7sp, 5cp for one week in the field; 42gp in town 10 Siege Crew Per Siege Crew: 1 Light Mace (5gp), 1 Leather (10gp), 1 tent/2 (10gp/2) Stat Block: 1st lvl Warrior, HD 1d8+2+3; hp 13 (x15); AC 12; init +1; speed 30ft; S 15 (+2) D 12 (+1) C 14 (+2) I 10 W 13 (+1) Ch 8 (-1); Saves F+4/R+0/W+1; Skills: Intimidate (4 ranks) +3, Ride (4 ranks) +4, Jump (4 ranks) +6 Feats: Toughness, Power Attack; Lgt Mace +3 hit (1d6+1 dmg); Cost per unit: 20gp Total cost: 200gp Upkeep/day on the field: 5sp rations, 5cp personal Upkeep/day in town: 3sp meals, 2sp lodging, 3cp personal Weekly cost: 38gp, 5sp for one week in the field; 37gp, 1sp in town Total cost of recruiting, upgrading and maintaining units: 20,500gp Total Weekly Upkeep: 269gp, 9sp, 2cp for one week in the field; 296gp, 5sp, 2cp in town |
| TelinArtho12-07-04, 02:18 PM | Well, its about time to scrap this original idea and go back to basics. I just learned that my foes WERE a hill giant and a bunch of ogres. What I neglected to remember (blocked it out...), was that the Hill giant was actually the leader of a hill giant TRIBE... which when he defeated us, he was on his way back to reclaim. So: 1. The hill giant probably isn't a standard one - probably has class levels... 2. The hill giant probably has multiple hill giants at his disposal 3. There probably are many more ogres... Time to do some better strategizing... Stay tuned... /d |
| TelinArtho12-07-04, 02:58 PM | So given the new complications, here are some of the things I'm having to deal with: 1. The AC of my hirelings is FAR too low. With Full Plate and a large Shield plus 1 point from dex (AC21), the regular hill giants will hit with their first attacks on a 5 or better. (80%). If I can get the AC up to 26 - I'll feel a little better. 2. The HPs are similarly a difficulty. Hits are not going to be rarities - so increasing HPs is important. Without magical means, that means increasing their levels (by hiring better people). If I can get the avg HPs of the fighters up to 30+, I'll be much happier - 50 would be even better. 3. The HPs and ACs of giants are much higher than ogres - the BAB I was working with was +5 (+7 with a charge). If I can get it up to +7 (+9 with a charge) - I think it will make a huge difference. Higher is of course better. To handle the bigger HPs, it is even more important to have spirited charge. All of this means one major change: MORE MONEY! To get the AC up to 26, I'd have to give the fighters with a +1 DEX mod the following: Full Plate +2 (5650gp) Lg Steel Shield +1 (1170gp) Ring of Protection +1 (2000gp) Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000gp) Making the shield +2 isn't out of the question for another 3k. I'm looking at boosting the levels of the fighters up to 3rd or 4th to start. As well, I'm adding a few mounted archers and an extra cleric or two. In all, my cheap first 5 is now my expensive first 10... |
| TelinArtho12-07-04, 05:08 PM | It seemed to me to be pretty important to have an idea of survivability of my newer group. Its still in a morphing stage, but these calculations will serve as a basis for some of the changes I'm making: 1. Giants (+16/+11 with Huge Greatclub) vs. Fighters w/ AC23 a. A Single giant will hit AC23 70% of the time and miss 30% of the time. Average damage per hit (with the first attack) is 12.5 damage. b. The second attack will hit 45% of the time and therefore does 8.0 damage. c. Therefore, a single giant will do 20.5 damage/round on average 2. If the fighter has Shield of Faith at CL 2 or 3 (AC25) a. The first attack will hit 60% of the time, doing 10.7 damage. b. The second attack will hit 35% of the time, doing 6.2 damage c. Therefore with Shield of faith, the giant would do 16.9 damage At 3rd level, the average hit points of a human fighter with a CON of 14 is 27. In both cases, the fighter would be down in less than 2 rounds of full attack from the giant. Key is to not allow a full attack (hence the Ride-by-attack feat). Also, the other side is to take out a single giant as quickly as possible, so it is important to know my own damage dealing capability: 1. 3 Fighters (masterwork lance, 3rd lvl, +2 Str) (+8 hit) charging with spirited charge against a Giant (AC20) and 3 Archers (mighty bow, 3rd lvl, +2 Str/+2 Dex) (+5 hit) a. The fighters will hit 45% of the time and do 9.1 damage per attack each b. The archers will hit 30% of the time and do 2.1 damage per attack each c. The total for a single round is 33.6 damage 2. As above, but with Magic Weapon (+1 dmg for fighters, +1 hit/dmg for archers), Bless (+1 hit) and the bard's Inspire Courage ability (+1 hit/dmg) a. The fighters will hit 55% of the time and do 14.6 damage per attack each b. The archers will hit 45% of the time and do 4.2 damage per attack each c. The total for a single round is 56.3 damage According to the SRD, the average Hill Giant will have 102 hp. In the first case, that means it will take just over 3 rounds to take one down and in the second case, just under two. The biggest problem of course is the fact that I'm not likely to be dealing with a single giant at a time - and therefore, with a marginal increase in the number of giants (from 1 to 3) - the whole force would likely be decimated. And this is even presuming that I'm able to take full advantage of ride-by-attack, spirited charge, etc. So AC is still clearly a glaring problem. Shield of Faith is deflection AC, as is Protection from Evil (a suggestion I was given offline) - so they wouldn't stack. An amulet of natural armor is 2k for a +1 bonus and increasing the shields to +2, would be 3k. This would put the starting AC at 25 and the boosted AC to 27. That would surely make a difference, but I don't know that it is enough. Comments? Suggestions? /d |
| TelinArtho12-09-04, 10:06 AM | After so much thought about this army and my quest to take out the giant tribe, it appears that the army will either be too expensive to start because of the expense of the equipment for a small group or it will be too expensive because of the potential loss of life with a large group. I've played around with numbers on this (far too many numbers...) and with a small group of 4th lvl followers - we'd get trounced after 4-5 giants. With a large group of 1st-2nd lvl followers - we'd get trounced after 4-5 giants... Most of this has to do with how long it would take for my character to be taken out. I don't know how many giants I'd be dealing with - but I suspect it would be more than 4-5. However, having a small force for the giants' underlings - the ogres, bugbears and orcs - still is reasonable. And since I've got time before I am actually to go on this quest, I'm going to start building - and I am actually going to get 1-2 cohorts of 5th-6th level (if my DM allows it anyway). Lastly, to Jefuri no Oni who had mentioned about the number of cohorts isn't specifically restricted in the DMG. I actually found a sentence that specifically says that you CAN have as many as you want - but that it just takes time to get them. It is in the hirelings section of the DMG (3.0 at least). Just figured I'd let you know. So now, I'm getting 1-2 cohorts - now I need to start thinking about what to get... *thinking* ... ... |
| Coalminer12-22-04, 11:26 AM | What page does it say that you can get more then one? I'm interested in having a look. |
| TelinArtho12-22-04, 11:43 AM | As I said, it is in the 3.0 DMG in the section under "Hirelings" (I think in the campaign or adventuring chapter). When I get home, I'll look up the exact page number. /d |