| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Snazzomancer05-01-07, 05:23 PM | I suppose it's iconic, having you ranger/wildsperson be a ranged attacker. Maybe this is why I hesitate in what I may do. I'm planning on joining a game as a melee ranger (TWF and 2 handed weapons) and I just wanted to know, what is your opinion on them. If one joined your party, would you feel they were "taking up a slot" another type of character could be better using? In terms of playstyle, do you think they're too weak to be on the frontlines? Thanks to all who reply in advance. |
| Johnny_Angel05-01-07, 05:33 PM | I don't see why a TWF ranger wouldn't be welcome in a group. After all, you can still use a bow if you need to; just because you focus on TWF doesn't mean you forget how to use ranged weapons. Furthermore, I think the vision you have of your character should guide you more than the expectations of others. I'd welcome a melee ranger into my group just as readily as a ranged ranger. |
| RainerNader05-01-07, 05:35 PM | Just a few thoughts off the top of my head my head: As a 2WF fighter, you'll get a lot of attacks. The best thing to do is find abilities or items that can increase damage per attack besides just a 1d8 longsword. So it may be worth considering dipping into levels of rogue (getting sneak attack damage for each attack) and stuff like that. Also, you still get other feats! Use those feats you get at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc on archery feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. That way you can do both. |
| Snazzomancer05-01-07, 06:13 PM | Johnny_Angel: I love my concept so far (Still in the works), but I'm not sure if the other players will. As much as I hate Legolas, I can't help but thinking I'm stepping on other players toes if I make this character. RainerNader: I thought about doing both, but may stats are going to spread thin aa they are(28 point buy, 4 14's and 2 10's cover most of the ranger bases). While I imagine in investing in some ranged-feats in the future, I'd much rather be spending them for more melee oriented talents (Which I still might have trouble getting since my stats are so low) |
| Verdande05-01-07, 06:18 PM | Instead of a Legolas ranger, think of an Aragorn ranger. Master of the wilderness, instead of master of shooting things cinematically. Everybody likes the tracker/wilderness skill monkey. The rogue's useless outside of town, as they say. |
| Donovan Morningfire05-01-07, 06:18 PM | It would depend on what sort of group the Ranger was joining I would think. If the TWF ranger is joining a group that's already chock full of melee-types, then perhaps, especially if one of them is a Fighter that's focused on TWF. But if joining a group with minimal melee-types, then having one more won't hurt. That said, having played a 3.5e Ranger focusing on range, never let it be said that a well-timed arrow attack on an enemy caster is wasted effort. Especially if you crit ;) |
| Kitaki05-01-07, 06:51 PM | A 2WF Ranger is not a bad thing, considering it is a specialization that Rangers normally get. |
| mlund05-01-07, 07:04 PM | The only problem with Two Weapon Fighting is that is it completely inferior to fighting with a Two Handed Weapon in the D&D 3.5 Combat System. Damage Reduction, Disarming, and the Power Attack rules just completely school the guy who chose to go Longsword + Shortsword over Greatsword. No, attacking with separate hands only works as a fixed class ability for Monks and for Claw, Claw, Rend sequences for the DM's pets. You've got to be at least 11th level with 15 Dex just to qualify for Two-Weapon Rend and you get piddling return for your investments. Kind of sad considering Claw, Claw, Rend is a perfectly "fair" attack pattern for CR4 monsters, but not for CL10 Fighters. :P - Marty Lund |
| Nephlite05-01-07, 07:40 PM | Johnny_Angel: I love my concept so far (Still in the works), but I'm not sure if the other players will. As much as I hate Legolas, I can't help but thinking I'm stepping on other players toes if I make this character. RainerNader: I thought about doing both, but may stats are going to spread thin aa they are(28 point buy, 4 14's and 2 10's cover most of the ranger bases). While I imagine in investing in some ranged-feats in the future, I'd much rather be spending them for more melee oriented talents (Which I still might have trouble getting since my stats are so low) Best damage-wise: Greatsword/Scythe with an offhand of armor spikes. Makes good TWFing damage. Eventually, You'll need to buy the elemental damage abilities (extra damage is helpful with each swing). |
| Snazzomancer05-01-07, 08:07 PM | Verdande: I actually wanted my character to be the mobile kind of fighter, using his own abilities to suprise and take advantage his opponents (An example of someone similar would be Cloud from Advent Children). How much of a skillmonkey can you be with INT 10? Donovan Morningfire: I'm not so much worried about group make up as to what the group will think of me when they want me to shoot something and realize I haven't been spending all my moolah on the best ranged weapon and don't have all the "good" ranged feats there are. Kitaki: How I'm going to specialize is part of this issue, thus I ask the general opinion of what people think about when they hear "melee ranger" MLund: Rangers don't get a two-handed weapon fighting chain unfortunately. As to 2-hand>Dual wielding, nothing like trips or feints to make a day Nephlite: I imagine I will be using a 2 handed weapon/ "2 handing" a one handed weapon until level 2 (We're starting 1st level). After that I may pick up an offhand. I usually pick up armor spikes on most of my chars ASAP. Edit:I would go With Combat expertise, but my INT isn't high enough (14 STR,14DEX,14WIS,14CON,10 INT, AND 10 CHA) Still time for stat arrangement so if you think there's something wrong with this give me a heads up. Keep the responses coming |
| Aminvelos05-01-07, 08:58 PM | You know the whole reason they added two-weapon fighting to the ranger and such and is because of the duel-wielding ranger drow called Drizzt in DND forgotten Realms books... That should tell you something right there. Go Duel-wielder |
| Sarrazon05-01-07, 09:15 PM | You know the whole reason they added two-weapon fighting to the ranger and such and is because of the duel-wielding ranger drow called Drizzt in DND forgotten Realms books... That should tell you something right there. DON'T Go Duel-wielder Fixt. I jest. Kinda. It is true that TWF was added because of Drizzt, but as long as you aren't DWing Scimitars, I've got no beef. Additonaly, to quote the 10 Commandments of Optimization "Thou shalt not Dual Wield excepting that thou has some source of additional damage such as sneak attack" |
| Zankue05-01-07, 09:48 PM | I don't see any problem with duel wielding as a ranger. This thread could easily have been the opposite, I'm a fighter that wants to use ranged attacks. Both classes are allowed to use either choice of fighting. The problem in our D&D society today is that stereotypes like this are hurting people and it's up to you to :help: us get rid of these stereotypes :dancin: :cheer: :clap: :w00t: :clap: :cheer: :dancin: WOOT. This Public Service Announcement has been payed by Don't Need ... Da stereotypes or DND...S |
| FeceMan05-01-07, 11:05 PM | Rangers are awesome. Skillpoints, spells, class features...I'd say to take the archery path but use your other feats to enhance your melee prowess (if going the THF route). |
| PhaedrusXY05-01-07, 11:11 PM | You don't need Dex with a TWF melee ranger. If you're in a low stat game, that can be a pretty big advantage. Take Oversized TWF, use two longswords, and take Power Attack. Focus on having a high Strength. Get as many things as you can to boost your attack bonus, and turn that into damage. Add on as many things as you can that go directly to damage, also. |
| Rerecros05-01-07, 11:14 PM | If your into TWF, grabbing a double weapon proficiency is the way to go. |
| tahngarth4005-01-07, 11:53 PM | bastard sword, weapon focus, power attack, oversized TWF, *whoops, thats what I get for taking someone's word for it again* |
| serow_#R05-02-07, 12:44 AM | 28pt buy and TWF? Focus on Str :) |
| Vaelan05-02-07, 01:36 AM | bastard sword, weapon focus, power attack, oversized TWF, dip in to exotic weapon master for 1 level for Uncanny Blow and if you get your to hit high enough you'll have some nice damage Uncanny Blow doesn't do anything unless you wield the weapon in two hands. |
| Stormbrand05-02-07, 02:04 AM | I suppose it's iconic, having you ranger/wildsperson be a ranged attacker. Maybe this is why I hesitate in what I may do. I'm planning on joining a game as a melee ranger (TWF and 2 handed weapons) and I just wanted to know, what is your opinion on them. If one joined your party, would you feel they were "taking up a slot" another type of character could be better using? In terms of playstyle, do you think they're too weak to be on the frontlines? Thanks to all who reply in advance. Fine. Personally I ignore Combat Styles entirely and just give rangers bonus feats. Rangers are at a slight disadvantage at defence - less HP and armour. That will be a disadvantage, and your combat style is typically offence focused (no shield to compensate). This can be crippling for a front-liner. A melee ranger is fine, only usually better as the 'mage-killer' or strategic targeting than he is at the front-line tank role. Use Hide to disappear in combat, then appear behind enemy lines and unleash mass damage. While you lack sneak attack you will have a higher general damage output than the rogue, so you can stay a major threat once you sneak past enemy defences. Best damage-wise: Greatsword/Scythe with an offhand of armor spikes. Makes good TWFing damage. Eventually, You'll need to buy the elemental damage abilities (extra damage is helpful with each swing). Excellent. Very clever. Only one problem, the combat style is light armour only - can you spike leather or chain shirt? |
| DrMorganes05-02-07, 03:27 AM | Verdande: I actually wanted my character to be the mobile kind of fighter, using his own abilities to suprise and take advantage his opponents (An example of someone similar would be Cloud from Advent Children). How much of a skillmonkey can you be with INT 10? Sounds like you may find the Scout (detailed in Complete Adventurer to be more to your liking. They get either 6 or 8 skill points per level, most of the rogue class skills (Disable Device is glaringly absent, though they do get Trapfinding as a class feature), and several movement-related class features. It's the latter which truly make the scout unique. First up, they gain bonuses to their base land speed. I think it's +10' every 5 levels, but I'll need to check. Next is Battle Fortitude, which adds a bonus to AC and Saving Throws in rounds where they move. Finally, and the icing on the cake, is their Skirmish class feature. This works like Sneak Attack in that it's precision damage, but the scout applies it to every attack made in any round where they move at least 10'. Scouts also gain several bonus feats from a fairly large list. Track is one choice, and Survival is a class skill. I've been playing around with a scout concept. Ranged feats like PBS and Precise Shot, Crossbow Sniper (which allows precision damage from up to 60'), Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow). This puts the scout on the periphery of most combat, but allows him to fire into melee without issue. I haven't thought it through completely yet, and am not sure whether one could eschew the Shot on the Run feat tree effectively... |
| DrMorganes05-02-07, 03:32 AM | About the skillmonkey with an INT of 10: First off, go human. That extra skill point equates to one more skill you can keep at max ranks for the duration of your career. Next, pick a class with lots of skill points. Bards and rangers get 6. Rogues get 8, and now that I think about it I'm pretty certain Scouts get 8 as well. Finally, toss in the feat Open Minded once or twice. You get +5 skill points each time. |
| JulesCARV05-02-07, 03:40 AM | Personally, I like the idea of an archery-style ranger who concentrates favored enemy on undead, and mainly uses a sling instead of a mighty composite bow. Specialized in damaging skeletons, liches, and the like, obviously. |
| tahngarth4005-02-07, 04:59 AM | Disable Device is glaringly absent, Check the errata, its there now |
| northern_bear05-02-07, 07:46 AM | I suppose it's iconic, having you ranger/wildsperson be a ranged attacker. Maybe this is why I hesitate in what I may do. I'm planning on joining a game as a melee ranger (TWF and 2 handed weapons) and I just wanted to know, what is your opinion on them. If one joined your party, would you feel they were "taking up a slot" another type of character could be better using? In terms of playstyle, do you think they're too weak to be on the frontlines? Thanks to all who reply in advance. Having the parties main melee fighter suck at melee isn't a problem with a good DM. The DM just uses monsters with less melee oomph. It's like having a rogue that isn't good at finding traps, or a cleric who doesn't cast healing spells very much. There's nothing wrong with having a character that isn't very good at doing what he does. What is a problem though, is if there is one character who does what you do a lotter better than you do. One terrible melee fighter is not a problem. One good fighter, and one weak fighter, that's a problem. The good fighter will be way more effective, and the weak fighter will just be wasting space. The question you need to be asking is not "is this character too weak to go into melee?" It is "is this character signficantly weaker than other characters who are going to be going into melee?" |
| Brehon05-02-07, 08:01 AM | Sounds like you may find the Scout (detailed in Complete Adventurer to be more to your liking. They get either 6 or 8 skill points per level, most of the rogue class skills (Disable Device is glaringly absent, though they do get Trapfinding as a class feature), and several movement-related class features. Current errata grants Scouts the Disable Device skill. |
| Tibs05-02-07, 10:51 AM | As a great lover of dual-wielding rangers, I can only tell you what works for me. For myself, I concentrate less on damage and more on AC, mobility, and multiple/specialty attacks. The way I see it, the fighter has the damage area covered. The ranger (as a secondary melee figure) should try and fill the gaps the fighter leaves behind, as well as set up situations the fighter can take advantage of-tripping, disarming, etc. Take your highest stat in DEX, for the extra AC. Pick up dodge and (when/if you can) two weapon defense. If your off-hand weapon is light, and you meet the requirements (and your DEX is higher than your STR), pick up weapon finesse. The extra feat and skill points of a human are a good advantage, especially if you decide you want to be the party's point man (scouting ahead, listen/spot) and survival guide. You might also want to invest in feat trees, such as the one that leads to the 'whirlwind' feat. With enough preparation, thought, and creativity, you should be able to play a straight, TWFing ranger without having to take any levels in another class (that "thou shalt not TWF without a source of extra damage" thing is four-day-old fish to me: I don't buy it). Above all, I'd say that the most important thing is to let your character concept ultimately take precedence over numbers. Optimization is great, but only when it serves what you want your character to be. Anyway, that said, good luck, and have fun. |
| TwistedPuppy05-02-07, 11:09 AM | Like RainerNader said, there's no reason you can't be proficient with both TWF and ranged attack. If you make your DEX 16 and at first level (I'm assuming the character is human) take weapon focus: short sword and weapon finesse. I personally go for a higher INT than you have, but that's just because I have trouble picking my skills if I don't get the bonus points.:D |
| ShadowDragon868505-02-07, 11:12 AM | I think you're going about this the wrong way. If you want to play Cloud from Advent Children, none of the Core classes will suit you. Cloud from Advent Children isen't about sword and sorcery, he's about swordery - taking a REALLY BIG SWORD and swinging it like a sword a third it's size, and doing REALLY COOL STUFF with it... And frankly, there are no provisions in Core D&D for that kind of stuff. No, what you, my friend, need, is the Tome of Battle. You are looking for a Swordsage. |
| Nephlite05-02-07, 12:01 PM | Rangers are at a slight disadvantage at defence - less HP and armour. That will be a disadvantage, and your combat style is typically offence focused (no shield to compensate). This can be crippling for a front-liner. Excellent. Very clever. Only one problem, the combat style is light armour only - can you spike leather or chain shirt? There are spiked clothes in real life so I assume it is possible to so to armor. But ignore real life. Actual rule-wise: Armor spikes doesn't prohibit it to metal armors (padded spiked armor hehe). And Chain shirt works with spiked armor if DM only allows metal armors with it. |
| FeceMan05-02-07, 12:10 PM | Ignore the guy who suggested taking Open Minded, unless you want a ******, gimped character. (What is it with people who are really bad with optimization and giving others optimization advice?) |
| daggeroflath05-02-07, 04:15 PM | I'm curious. Why do you want to play a ranger? Why a TWFing one? Are you considering other character classes? Who else do you have in your group? Knowing the answers to these questions will help me advise you further. |
| primemover00305-02-07, 04:32 PM | You know the whole reason they added two-weapon fighting to the ranger and such and is because of the duel-wielding ranger drow called Drizzt in DND forgotten Realms books... That should tell you something right there. Go Duel-wielder Patently not true... Rangers were TWF in 2nd edition and Drizzt was based of the class not the other way around. |
| Metafictional05-02-07, 05:21 PM | Honestly, look at the rest of the group. How many players are trying to attack at range, and how many up close and personal? Consider two groups: Alpha Strike: Barbarian Rogue Cleric Sorceror Chances are the Cleric is going to be stuck with limited ranged options, and will need to heal and buff. Rogue ranged combat is very short range, so in this group, I'd go Ranged Ranger. Beta Strike Bard Druid Scout Warmage Bards can melee, but their weak HD is a definite downside. Note that this group would normally force the Druid to be a melee combatant, which, while scarily viable, cuts down on available healing, buffing, and debuffing (environmental spells are a Druid specialty). Scouts are skirmishers, never making more than one attack per turn if they can help it (and Shot on the Run or Multishot is usually a better choice than melee). With the Warmage handling ranged offense, I'd say Melee Ranger. But other than that, ANYONE who complains about a melee Ranger needs to stop thinking this is World of Warcraft. I used to hear complaints about "melee Hunters" all the time, and then it was an occasionally viable build. Rangers have more support for melee by far. Especially with animal companion flanking! Plus there are some amazing Ranger spells in the splatbooks that make up for your limited Feat choices. |
| Holy_Beholder05-02-07, 05:48 PM | I think you're going about this the wrong way. If you want to play Cloud from Advent Children, none of the Core classes will suit you. Cloud from Advent Children isen't about sword and sorcery, he's about swordery - taking a REALLY BIG SWORD and swinging it like a sword a third it's size, and doing REALLY COOL STUFF with it... And frankly, there are no provisions in Core D&D for that kind of stuff. No, what you, my friend, need, is the Tome of Battle. You are looking for a Swordsage. Speaking of which, I calculated that assuming that the greatsword in D&D is about 66 inches long, and 1.5 inches wide, then it is only 99 inches square. Clouds sword on the other hand is about 6.5 ft, so 78 inches long, and 7 inches wide, making it 556 inches square. That means that it is over 5 and a half times as large as a greatsword. Since he wields it in one hand half the time, then it is more like a bastard sword, which is more like 3/4 inch wide and 50 inches long, making it 32.5 inches square, so clouds sword is nearly 14 times as large. Assuming the width is about equal, and a bastard sword is 4 lbs(I changed the weight some) then Cloud is wielding a 56 pound sword. |
| SilverFoxKnows05-02-07, 06:15 PM | If you like TWF, go for it. I would probably go for Oversized TWF. That way if you end up taking Improved Crit., it applies to both weapons. I'd also use martial instead of exotic, you're more likely to find a magical long sword or battle axe than a spiked chain or two bladed sword. Be aware of your strengths and weaknesses and you'll be fine. You'll have a higher move than the tanks so use that to pick where, or even if, you make your stand. You won't have massive hit points or AC so flank for the tank. Double team foes and take 'em down quick. Use your spells. Entangle can take a foe out of the fight long enough to even the odds. Or save a healing spell while you're scouting ahead, and away from the cleric. Longstrider to close the gap quickly and keep a foe from escaping. Your animal companion may not be as tough as a Druids but it is an extra set of eyes and ears at night. It can scout, hunt, track, guard or fetch things. A common animal you can keep with you more places. A big, tough dog will be allowed into more towns than a dire bear. The bear can only do more damage in a fight only if it's with you. And while your skill selection isn't quite as good as the Rogue, it's not bad and you get a lot of points. Focus on Spot & Listen to avoid ambushes. Survival & Search to follow tracks to the BBEG's lair. |
| Snazzomancer05-02-07, 06:47 PM | Wowza, that's alot more responses than I expected. WARNING: Large Block of Text incoming!!!:fight!: Aminvelos: All because of Drizzt eh? Never knew Sarrazon: If I had an O'rly bird I'd put one up here Zankue: I agree, but not everyone else does. At my table in real life whenever someone says wizard/sorcerer the others usually assume it's a blaster/damage dealer PhaedrusXY: I have 14 in Dex for now for AC/ranged attack power Rerecros: I have yet to try this, probably because most weapons like this are exotic tahngarth40: A feat for 1 damage on average (Extra kewl factor but still) serow_#R: See Phaedrus. Not to mention, I'm not sure if strength focus steps into barbarian/fighter/cleric territory Vaelan: Have not a clue what this is Stormbrand: I always go with bucklers. Hide-and-ambush is useful, but doesn't always work. This is where I hope the better HP (d6 VS d8) and saves could help out. How could I get a higher damage output than a rogue? Higher BAB of course, but SA dice can add up. DrMorganes: Scout sounds interesting. I'll look into it. Already human, but I have yet to use a skill feat (Not many are very good IMO). Open-Minded doesn't sound to horrible, but is it worth spending a valuable feat on (Albeit, weapon specialization helps lower the pressure of feat selection)? JulesCARV: Slings are cool weapons, but the damage is rather sub-par in comparison to other ranged weapons northern_bear: I'm not quite sure if I'm the "main" fighter at the moment. As to how weak my character is in comparison to others, I'm not really sure. We may have a few clerics, a wizard, barbarian, perhaps even a psion! No idea as of now. Tibs: Personally I love tactical feats, but as of now I lack the intelligence score (My character, not me; dur) to take CE and I'm not sure what stats I should sacrifice for more points. Full ranger doesn't sound bad, but I am thinking about multi-classing in Horizon Walker for more viability. TwistedPuppy: I could if I had more points, and if I did this, I would have to either lower some stats or make some 8's(Nothing like negatives on a skill you have no points in). ShadowDragon8685: I hardly expect to do anything he does in the movie. Were it translated, just about everything done is in epic proportions. My character is just similar in style of fighting (Ex.Lots of jumping, tumbling, taking advantage of terrain etc) I have yet to make a ToB character (Looking forward to it) but unfortunately, the book isn't allowed in this game. Nephlite: More likely going to hurt yourself with metal spikes on clothing than your enemy. FeceMan: See DrMorganes daggeroflath: Well, I wanted to do something other than the run-of-the-mill TWF rogue but retain somewhat of an "agile" characteristic so to speak. People are sill coming up with characters, so I can't give you exact details on groups makeup. primemover003: Well what do ya know? The gaming world really doesn't revolve around Drizz't Do'urden :) Metafictional: I don't know the party makeup, but there will be 6 people. I wish there were more melee hunters in WoW (I play rogue :)). Useful Ranger spells you say? Where:tongue:? Holy_Beholder: Once again, I do realize Cloud is of epic proportions. SilverFoxKnows: All very valid tactics i plan putting to use. Where is oversized TWF from? |
| Crusher Nate05-02-07, 06:52 PM | For a hard-hitting TWF Ranger, you might find this build worthwhile... Scout 4/ Ranger 12/ Singh Rager 4 Key feats: Swift Hunter (from The Complete Scoundrel), Iron Will and Ki Shout (required for Singh Rager). He doesn't get Greater TWF automatically, so you may want to spend a feat on that. This character skirmishes for +4d6, and gets Pounce from Singh Rager. Thus, he can make a full attack on a charge and add his skirmish dice on each swing. He has 19 BAB and pretty good saves. He has four favored enemies, and gets to use his skirmish dice against them even if they're normally immune to precision damage. He can also rage, and he's immune to fear. Singh Rager is found in Oriental Adventures. |
| nastynate05-02-07, 07:32 PM | For a hard-hitting TWF Ranger, you might find this build worthwhile... Scout 4/ Ranger 12/ Singh Rager 4 Key feats: Swift Hunter (from The Complete Scoundrel), Iron Will and Ki Shout (required for Singh Rager). He doesn't get Greater TWF automatically, so you may want to spend a feat on that. This character skirmishes for +4d6, and gets Pounce from Singh Rager. Thus, he can make a full attack on a charge and add his skirmish dice on each swing. He has 19 BAB and pretty good saves. He has four favored enemies, and gets to use his skirmish dice against them even if they're normally immune to precision damage. He can also rage, and he's immune to fear. Singh Rager is found in Oriental Adventures. Why bother with Singh Ranger? Rangers get lion's pounce as a second level spell, and 2nd level pearls of power are very cost effective. I'd rather have the scout 4 / ranger 16 combo with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish for +7d6 skirmish damage and full 20th level ranger favored enemy bonuses. Throw in some boots of speed, and go nuts with 8 attacks of pure nasty. |
| FeceMan05-03-07, 12:06 AM | Snazzomancer, whatever you do: DO NOT SPEND A FEAT ON OPEN-MINDED. Tell us a little more about the campaign--stat distribution, starting level, what you want your character to do (be exact), etc. |
| Snazzomancer05-03-07, 07:50 PM | I'm sure I mentioned some of this in that large mound of responses. -Party will be of 6 people -Starting at level 1 Campaign summation: Goblins(And their pals) are invading the townsfolks land and destroying everything in sight. It's up to us to help stop them. To be honest, I really don't know much more than that. Main character goals: -Two weapon Fighter (Won't have trouble wielding other weapons in case anything happens to said weapons) -Use skills to help self/others in/out combant (Flanking,ambushes,decoying, to tracking and being the one person in the party with ranks in swim) -Deal good amounts of damage -Tough enough to frontline when things get dire Pretty much all I can think of so far |
| Holy_Beholder05-03-07, 09:43 PM | Wowza, that's alot more responses than I expected. WARNING: Large Block of Text incoming!!!:fight!: Aminvelos: All because of Drizzt eh? Never knew Sarrazon: If I had an O'rly bird I'd put one up here Zankue: I agree, but not everyone else does. At my table in real life whenever someone says wizard/sorcerer the others usually assume it's a blaster/damage dealer PhaedrusXY: I have 14 in Dex for now for AC/ranged attack power Rerecros: I have yet to try this, probably because most weapons like this are exotic tahngarth40: A feat for 1 damage on average (Extra kewl factor but still) serow_#R: See Phaedrus. Not to mention, I'm not sure if strength focus steps into barbarian/fighter/cleric territory Vaelan: Have not a clue what this is Stormbrand: I always go with bucklers. Hide-and-ambush is useful, but doesn't always work. This is where I hope the better HP (d6 VS d8) and saves could help out. How could I get a higher damage output than a rogue? Higher BAB of course, but SA dice can add up. DrMorganes: Scout sounds interesting. I'll look into it. Already human, but I have yet to use a skill feat (Not many are very good IMO). Open-Minded doesn't sound to horrible, but is it worth spending a valuable feat on (Albeit, weapon specialization helps lower the pressure of feat selection)? JulesCARV: Slings are cool weapons, but the damage is rather sub-par in comparison to other ranged weapons northern_bear: I'm not quite sure if I'm the "main" fighter at the moment. As to how weak my character is in comparison to others, I'm not really sure. We may have a few clerics, a wizard, barbarian, perhaps even a psion! No idea as of now. Tibs: Personally I love tactical feats, but as of now I lack the intelligence score (My character, not me; dur) to take CE and I'm not sure what stats I should sacrifice for more points. Full ranger doesn't sound bad, but I am thinking about multi-classing in Horizon Walker for more viability. TwistedPuppy: I could if I had more points, and if I did this, I would have to either lower some stats or make some 8's(Nothing like negatives on a skill you have no points in). ShadowDragon8685: I hardly expect to do anything he does in the movie. Were it translated, just about everything done is in epic proportions. My character is just similar in style of fighting (Ex.Lots of jumping, tumbling, taking advantage of terrain etc) I have yet to make a ToB character (Looking forward to it) but unfortunately, the book isn't allowed in this game. Nephlite: More likely going to hurt yourself with metal spikes on clothing than your enemy. FeceMan: See DrMorganes daggeroflath: Well, I wanted to do something other than the run-of-the-mill TWF rogue but retain somewhat of an "agile" characteristic so to speak. People are sill coming up with characters, so I can't give you exact details on groups makeup. primemover003: Well what do ya know? The gaming world really doesn't revolve around Drizz't Do'urden :) Metafictional: I don't know the party makeup, but there will be 6 people. I wish there were more melee hunters in WoW (I play rogue :)). Useful Ranger spells you say? Where:tongue:? Holy_Beholder: Once again, I do realize Cloud is of epic proportions. SilverFoxKnows: All very valid tactics i plan putting to use. Where is oversized TWF from? Speaking of which, I got a decent look at the side of clouds sword, it is at least 2 1/2 inches. Assuming the average bastard sword is 1/4 inch(roughly) that makes the weight of clouds weapon an additional 10 times as heavy as I figured it out earlier, upping the weight from 56 pounds to 560 pounds. Of metal. I can't even lift 560 pounds, let alone wield it as a sword in one hand at high speed. I don't think anyone alive can. |
| RellenMarn05-03-07, 10:57 PM | How about going Dervish (Complete Warrior), it is one heck of a PRC for a twfer. Consider switching the 14 you have in strength to 14 intelligence and taking three levels of swashbuckler the going into Dervish. Swashbuckler 3/ Ranger 3/ Dervish 10/ Tempest The Dervish abilities are awesome, get to make a full attack and move your speed with fast movement, yes please! Good luck with your character! |
| FeceMan05-04-07, 01:26 AM | I'm sure I mentioned some of this in that large mound of responses. -Party will be of 6 people -Starting at level 1 Campaign summation: Goblins(And their pals) are invading the townsfolks land and destroying everything in sight. It's up to us to help stop them. To be honest, I really don't know much more than that. Main character goals: -Two weapon Fighter (Won't have trouble wielding other weapons in case anything happens to said weapons) -Use skills to help self/others in/out combant (Flanking,ambushes,decoying, to tracking and being the one person in the party with ranks in swim) -Deal good amounts of damage -Tough enough to frontline when things get dire Pretty much all I can think of so far Race and stats, though? Also, you're going to have problems in doing damage with TWF unless you have some sneak attack dice. Unfortunately, TWF just doesn't have the damage output of THF. I know there's a feat in PHB II that lets you do a mini-rend with TWF, which helps some. However, it's just not enough unless you design a character that has lots of extra dice of damage on each hit and/or forces some sort of save with each hit. The only upside to this is that you'll be able to do a bit of extra damage against your favored enemies (I believe there's a feat in CWar that gives a +3 to damage against all of them). |
| Hydryh05-04-07, 11:29 AM | I love melee rangers! This (http://choujin.mpage.jp/capcomvssnk/snk/SamuraiSpirits_03_Galford+.gif) guy, for example... |
| Stormbrand05-04-07, 06:11 PM | Stormbrand: I always go with bucklers. Hide-and-ambush is useful, but doesn't always work. This is where I hope the better HP (d6 VS d8) and saves could help out. How could I get a higher damage output than a rogue? Higher BAB of course, but SA dice can add up. Rangers tend to have more STR and place for of a focus on weaponry. A small increase to your damage output. Sneak Attack is a one-shot damage increase, since your presence is revealed after you sneak attack. After that, then you will be doing more damage (higher BAB and combat style feats = viable TWF). So the rogue only does more damage the round he strikes from hiding. You can come out and still be a major threat. Another possibility that I used (with a Paladin with Boots of Elvenkind) was Power Attack. When I struck from hiding, I got one attack at my highest bonus (was high level) against their flat-foot AC - so I could afford to pour Power Attack into my 2H weapon. |
| Nephlite05-04-07, 07:17 PM | Rangers tend to have more STR and place for of a focus on weaponry. A small increase to your damage output. Sneak Attack is a one-shot damage increase, since your presence is revealed after you sneak attack. After that, then you will be doing more damage (higher BAB and combat style feats = viable TWF). So the rogue only does more damage the round he strikes from hiding. You can come out and still be a major threat. Another possibility that I used (with a Paladin with Boots of Elvenkind) was Power Attack. When I struck from hiding, I got one attack at my highest bonus (was high level) against their flat-foot AC - so I could afford to pour Power Attack into my 2H weapon. You do realize Rogues get Sneak attack on all attacks made while flanking: including when TWFing. Granted, you need a buddy to flank with. |
| Stormbrand05-04-07, 07:40 PM | You do realize Rogues get Sneak attack on all attacks made while flanking: including when TWFing. Granted, you need a buddy to flank with. I do. But to Hide and creep past enemy lines for a surprise attack assumes detatching oneself from the rest of the party, so having a buddy in such a position is unlikely. And for Rogues, reduced BAB combined with TWF penalties can make those attacks unreliable. |
| Snazzomancer05-04-07, 08:00 PM | FeceMan: Human, 28 point buy. Right now I have the setup as 14 Strength,14 Constitution,14 Dexterity,10 Intelligence,14 Wisdom,10 Charisma but that can change since we haven't started yet. Hydryh: Your link isn't working for me Stormbrand: Okay. I was thinking about my stats being 14,14,13,12,13,10 so that I can pick up Combat Expertise and move from there for manuvers. Disarm,trip,sunder,and feint are all great fun(I suppose feint is more useful for rogues). Which reminds me. How am I going to deal with the fighter/barbarian/brute when we run into the first pair of Gauntlets of Ogre power? |
| Nephlite05-04-07, 08:14 PM | I do. But to Hide and creep past enemy lines for a surprise attack assumes detatching oneself from the rest of the party, so having a buddy in such a position is unlikely. And for Rogues, reduced BAB combined with TWF penalties can make those attacks unreliable. I wasn't thinking of surprise attacks: that was just you. I was thinking you wait/ready to charge enemy as enemy closes toward him. |
| Johnny_Angel05-05-07, 03:32 PM | Instead of a Legolas ranger, think of an Aragorn ranger. Master of the wilderness, instead of master of shooting things cinematically. Everybody likes the tracker/wilderness skill monkey. The rogue's useless outside of town, as they say. good examples, but I was think more along the lines of the centaur general from The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe; he's a good example of a 2-weapon fighter. |
| Sarrazon05-05-07, 03:45 PM | Sarrazon: If I had an O'rly bird I'd put one up here I'm Sigging that. |
| Mootpoint05-06-07, 02:43 AM | TWF ranger later rolled into a tempest = unsavory doom for all that oppose... |
| Snazzomancer05-06-07, 10:10 AM | Johnny_Angel: True Sarrazon: Thanks Mootpoint: What book is the Tempest from? As for the people showing me all these multi-class monsters, are you taking into account the EXP penalties? I mean sure, you might get a bunch of more abilities, but is a 40% penalty on your experience worth that? |
| Wolf7205-06-07, 11:34 AM | Patently not true... Rangers were TWF in 2nd edition and Drizzt was based of the class not the other way around. check your sources again ... The Crystal Shard came out during 1e Unearthed Arcana days where the drow were ambidextrous and able to become rangers. 2nd Edition came out after that, a while after that iirc. whether or not TWF rangers were based off drizzt is another story, I don't think they were |
| WolfHati05-06-07, 08:00 PM | I think TWF rangers (and rogues) were added so that there wouldn't be so darn many drow running around. Investing in stuff like combat expertise, improved trip, improved disarm, and the like could be good if you're fighting human-ish type opponents. A sickle off-hand can be used to make trip attacks, and a main hand flail is good at both tripping and disarming people--disarming prone characters is especially effective, with the +4 to attack rolls vs. prone characters and -4 for melee attack rolls from prone. |
| loaba05-06-07, 11:49 PM | I'd say a TWFing Ranger/Scout would be welcome in any group that didn't already have a second-tier melee goon. |
| Rerecros05-07-07, 02:07 AM | Rerecros: I have yet to try this, probably because most weapons like this are exotic I know, you gotta spend a feat or play a dwarf (urgosh), but it's worth it. compair doing 1d8+str and 1d6+half str for a longsword/shortsword combo. with doing 1d8+str and a half with each attack for a double edged sword. It makes oversized TWF a wast of a feat. |
| Salla05-07-07, 02:19 AM | If I make a ranger*, I would definitely do the archery track, for a few reasons. 1. Light Armor means a generally poor AC, and you can't use a shield as a TWFer (unless you're shield-bashing). You don't want to spend a lot of time taking full attacks from melee-friendly monsters. 2. TWF is generally a weak option; just TWF is okay, but the feat chain gives steadily weaker and weaker benefits as you progress. Most of those attacks are just going to give you a sore dice-wrist. 3. Using a bow leaves a hand free to cast spells, whereas a TWF Ranger has to stow a weapon (move action that provokes) to get a free hand to cast a spell in the middle of a fight. *The Scout completely trumps the Ranger to my personal gaming sensibilities, though. So, really, if I'm doing an outdoorsy type ... I'm doing a Scout. :) |
| Nathreet05-07-07, 02:25 AM | I was going to post something but Salla already said it. Good points. |
| serow_#R05-07-07, 08:46 AM | Using PHB2? Instead of Improved and Greater TWF, substitute for TW Pounce and TW Rend instead. At least it's more fun :D |
| Snazzomancer05-10-07, 07:41 PM | Sorry I haven't posted in so long. Game starts the 20th so you're welcome to keep replying. WolfHati: Damage Versus Utility; could be much better than the good old long/short sword combo Loabo: Thanks for your opinion Rerecros: I have yet to find a wepon worth exotic weapon proficiency (Please no spiked chain cheese) and I think they're usually better when a it comes as a racial ability (IE. Dwarf Waraxes) Salla: 1) This is true. 2) Althugh I hate to admit it, this is also somewhat true. Unless you take the chain into epic (Perfect TWF=Ouchies) then the low rolls on those extra attacks don't often do much. 3) I never knew you could cast spells with one hand (Someone else confirming this would be nice). I think it's safe to say that most early ranger spells are buff/utility spells used after battles or in that special situation. I may look at Scout this weekend Serow_#R: I'll be looking at alot of non-core stuff over this weeked, so we'll see. |
| Salla05-11-07, 05:51 PM | 3) I never knew you could cast spells with one hand (Someone else confirming this would be nice). I know you said 'someone else', but from d20srd.org: "A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component." |
| Ashen_Child05-12-07, 07:36 AM | Why don't you go with the sheild bash? Large spiked sheild + bashing + light weapon for 'off hand' Rangers have sheild proficiency, so there's no point not using it. |
| Splendide05-12-07, 07:59 AM | I've never had an issue with someone playing a TWF ranger in my group. I'd rather that than a TWF fighter. |
| Nephlite05-12-07, 10:51 AM | Why don't you go with the sheild bash? Large spiked sheild + bashing + light weapon for 'off hand' Rangers have sheild proficiency, so there's no point not using it. Shields always count as offhand weapons for TWFing so it would make more sense to go Longsword + Spiked shield. |
| Nessaj05-12-07, 07:16 PM | Rangers are quite possibly my favorite class, so I feel the need to throw in my own 2 cents here. Firstly, there's nothing wrong with a TWFing Ranger. Are Rangers better at Archery IMO? Yes, yes they are. But full base attack and a free feat? It can be done; just do something about the armor issues. I prefer Longsword and Dagger, just because daggers are versatile and I like the mental image, but there are plenty of options here. A double weapon gives significant advantages; Weapon Focus, for one is easier, and a particularly damaging weapon (prob. exotic) can make up for the fact that off-hand weapons are light. I like quarterstaves too, but that's just me since they're hardly optimal :rolleyes: And now for a slight rant. Feel free to scroll past if you don't care. Scouts make better Rangers than Rangers do I have to disagree that scouts make better rangers than rangers do. Especially as archers. Although it's always bugged me that scouts get all of the abilities Rangers should get earlier and then some (flawless stride, trackless step, evasion, camouflage, hide in plain sight), Rangers are hardly outclassed. Skirmish gets you higher damage. For one shot. Unless you care to invest in two feats to get Greater Manyshot (well more, really, but Point-blank and precise shot are a given for an archer) and remain within 30 feet. Rangers, however, are Machine-gun snipers at high levels. Full Base Attack makes a huge difference, especially when playing around with Manyshot and Rapid Shot, and they are slightly less feat-intensive to get some excellent damage. Full attacking a Favored Enemy is quite comparable to the xd6 damage a scout gets for their one shot at a lower attack bonus. Scouts AND Rangers get 5 bonus feats, however 3 Rangers get in their first 3 levels, the other at 6th and the last at 11th. Scouts are spread out over 20 levels. Playing a 13th level halfling ranger right now, in fact, with a melee human scout-dervish in the same group. Straight Ranger, no dips. Slightly miffed that the scout can ignore difficult terrain and I can't Track her, but when combat starts it's the Ranger sniping a Range increment away that not only hits more often but does more overall damage because of it. The spellcasting in particular (assuming your DM allows for Spell Compendium) really spices up the class and not only keeps the Ranger from being overshadowed, but trumping the Scout in many areas. And it's the Ranger with the CMW wand that comes to clean up the mess after the fight's over and people are hurting cuz they have to be within 30ft to use their class abilities :cool: |
| Snazzomancer05-12-07, 08:27 PM | Many good arguments here. Some of them are almost persuading me back into archery. Ashen_Child: Shield TWF. Nice idea, I will have to try it some time Splendide: Why? Nessaj: Alright, lots of very good stuff in this post here. Once again I usually don't take double weps because A) They're usally exotic and B)Cost lots of $$$ at low levels. Q-Staves are for that weird guy who wears a hood in that dark corner of the bar. I'll have to see if one of my friends has a Spell Compendium. Deadline Changed, is now the 15th, keep responses coming! |
| Ashen_Child05-12-07, 09:01 PM | Shields always count as offhand weapons for TWFing so it would make more sense to go Longsword + Spiked shield. I read in dragon magazine that it was okay ...of course, that was the same magazine that said that greatsword and armor spike was also a legitimate option, so i'm wondering about the legitimacy. (i always wondered about that 'off-hand' bit. I thought it was just 'fluff text' since it leads to the question about what happens if you only attack with the sheild) |
| Nessaj05-12-07, 09:50 PM | Q-Staves are for that weird guy who wears a hood in that dark corner of the bar. You mean the creepy guy with the eyepatch asking if anyone's seen the man who killed his wife and took his eye? What class do you think he is, I wonder? :P |