Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 12:49 AM	Butter scraped over too much bread Hi all, I'm a longtime DM, but recently started to get the urge to play again. So now my friend is going to DM a brand-new party of characters starting at 5th level. Let me summarize our issues: 1. We're only three players. 2. Since I know a lot more about the different classes (through DMing) than the other two players, I told them I'd be okay with waiting until they'd decided on their character classes before I made a decision, so I could pick up the slack in terms of what skills the party was lacking. Unfortunately, one is going to play a Barbarian 1 / Dragon Shaman 4, and the other is inclining towards either a Knight or a Monk. Which leaves me to take care of arcane spellcasting, divine spellcasting, and specialty skills (thieving, tracking, etc.). You see the problem. What should I focus on? My DM has already indicated that there will be a fair bit of investigation and problem-solving in his adventure (though there's fighting too). There is no way I can create a viable 5th-level character who can take care of all the party needs, but at the same time, I'm feeling a fair bit of (internal and self-generated) pressure to be as much of a generalist as possible. I generated my ability scores last week (4d6 x 6 , drop lowest roll, assign scores where you want): 10, 10, 12, 15, 15, 8 I came up with a few basic character options (the adventures will be set in the Forgotten Realms): Sun Elf Wizard (Diviner) 5 Pros: can cast third-level spells, divination magic helps us find out info and gives extra domain spells, lots of flexibility in spell choices, racial boost of +2 to Intelligence. Gains the 5th-level bonus feat. Cons: fragile as hell, no spontaneous casting, metamagic feats aren't yet worth the cost of higher spell slots, -2 to Constitution. Misses one feat for being nonhuman. Sun Elf Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 Pros: One level of rogue allows character to throw a bunch of skill ranks into Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, Gather Info, Knowledge (local), Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, and Move Silently. Can detect and disable traps and serve as the party face. Non-specialization allows access to more spells. Gets a few more hit points from the rogue level. Cons: Still fragile. No access to third-level spells. No 5th-level bonus feat. Misses one feat for being nonhuman. Moon Elf Rogue 5 Pros: Complete specialist. Can sneak, get info, disable traps, bluff, and open locks. Serves as the party face. Much more dangerous melee combatant. Cons: Party has NO arcane magic. Fewer feats than human. Human Sorcerer 5 Pros: Full spellcaster who can also serve as party face. Spontaneous casting allows greater flexibility in dealing with unexpected situations. Cons: Very limited spell selection. Has no specialist skills. Fragile. Metamagic feats are almost useless (higher spell slots plus extra casting time). Human Cleric 5 Pros: Lots of healing to help the party survive combat. Aid spells boost melee combatants. Able to be a decent second-line fighter. Harder to hit in battle. Cons: No arcane magic. Limited skill points mean very little specalisation. — So what do you think I should choose for my character? I've reached a point where I'm paralyzed by all the character permutations and I really need an objective outside opinion to put things in perspective. My DM is doing this for the first time, so, without any disrespect intended to him, he hasn't really been that helpful in giving me guidance. In a three-character group, character optimization is critical, but I didn't want to rain on the others' parade by suggesting one of them play a specialist or a cleric. Now I feel like if I don't pick a character that fills as many roles as the party is lacking, we're going to get slaughtered in short order. Help! Thanks in advance. weep
Zankue 04-09-07, 01:01 AM	Ok here's one point you're missing, this isnt a game of optimization it's about fun, be a class that you enjoy and see how it works out, Im not saying that being efficient isnt good, but if you have to kill yourself for it than it may not be worth it. Im not familiar with forgoten realms... but are there bards? if so than I'd say it's a good choice some arcane, some healing, he's a party face and a skill monkey, hope this helped
Rillek_Denar 04-09-07, 01:03 AM	I recommend Beguiler. You get trapfinding, plenty o' skill points, and arcane magic. Load up on your Use Magic Device, but a wand or two, and you're basically covered.
Nexilis 04-09-07, 01:04 AM	Of it were me, I'd go Rogue x/Bard x. x = however many levels you wanna put there. With that you get the ability to find and take care of traps and the like, as well as arcane magic, and healing since bards get cure spells. Also, with a high enough UMD modifier you can use any wand with ease. Also you can act as the party face, and earn some money on the side when in towns. -New
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 01:51 AM	Ok here's one point you're missing, this isnt a game of optimization it's about fun, be a class that you enjoy and see how it works out, Im not saying that being efficient isnt good, but if you have to kill yourself for it than it may not be worth it. Im not familiar with forgoten realms... but are there bards? if so than I'd say it's a good choice some arcane, some healing, he's a party face and a skill monkey, hope this helped True enough. Thanks for reminding me of that. :) I do want to play a character I enjoy, which is actually why I'm not too keen on playing a bard. For some reason, I've never dug the class, and while it might actually be the best thing to do, I just can't see myself playing a bard. Plus, at the level we're starting at (5), he really only has cure light wounds available to him, and he doesn't have the powerful combat spells of the wizard or sorcerer. Given that our party is only three characters, it just seems as if whatever he does in any given situation will never really be enough. I recommend Beguiler. You get trapfinding, plenty o' skill points, and arcane magic. Load up on your Use Magic Device, but a wand or two, and you're basically covered. I thought about this. It's a pretty good option, and the armored mage ability is great for keeping me alive in combat. As a specialist, the beguiler's great. On the other hand, while it's nice to have invisibility and suchlike, what about blasting spells? Given that my other two players are going to be playing melee combatants, shouldn't I focus on area-attack spells to kill large numbers of baddies at once?
Deathmond 04-09-07, 02:12 AM	Binder from tome of magic. That will let you take care of all of those roles at least some-what.
WolfHati 04-09-07, 02:21 AM	Just be an artificer. They can do pretty much anything--they got trap skills and can pretend to be whatever kind of caster they choose. It'll probably cost a bit so you'll only run into problems if your DM is *really* stingy with loot.
Rillek_Denar 04-09-07, 02:49 AM	I thought about this. It's a pretty good option, and the armored mage ability is great for keeping me alive in combat. As a specialist, the beguiler's great. On the other hand, while it's nice to have invisibility and suchlike, what about blasting spells? Given that my other two players are going to be playing melee combatants, shouldn't I focus on area-attack spells to kill large numbers of baddies at once? Your dragon shaman should have that aspect covered pretty well, assuming he goes for the cone. If he doesn't... God loves a man with a Wand of Fireball. Anyhow, if you're DM is worth his salt, he won't send you against something you're not equipped to deal with, like an army. It's cool to be a blaster, but it's easy to do without one.
timtao 04-09-07, 03:03 AM	Ask your DM about a 4th character to be shared by the other players. Our game group was faced with the same situation. We had 1 barbarian, 1 wizard and one fighter/rogue. Our DM's suggestion was that an NPC/PC Cleric would join the party. Basically the character an NPC controlled by the players collectively, and occasionally by the DM. It worked out well, and allowed us players to play the characters we really wanted to play, and yet gave us the healing power of a cleric. Worked out very well until a TPK befell us in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - but that's another story! ;)
Totentanz 04-09-07, 03:24 AM	How about a druid? They win at DnD. They heal, they fight, they blast, and they have a helper who is better than a single-classed fighter. The only thing they don't do is make waffle fries :mad: While I agree in theory that DnD is a game of fun, in practice I don't have fun when my group TPK's at the first goblin sorc with a good spell selection. Whether we like it or not, DnD came from a war-game, and those roots still show. Trapfinding/skill monkey, arcane casting, divine casting, and tank are alive and well. If your group is okay with it, I also second the NPC companion idea. While they are under-powered overall, Favored Souls make perfect healbots. Less paper-work = more time spent on roleplaying.
Vaelan 04-09-07, 04:29 AM	Factotum? Rogue/Something/Chameleon? Cleric with the Kobold domain?
RevIron 04-09-07, 04:51 AM	From what you've said so far, I think the second option from your original post suits you as a player best, but think it's worth considering the possibilities of a Sun Elf Rouge 2/Wizard 3 as well, maybe even a Diviner.
Merestil Haye 04-09-07, 07:39 AM	If your group has a deficiency in the skilled character department, play a Human and make sure he has a good Int. Good Int steers towards Wizards anyway (or Beguiler, which does seem to be an option). However, I would multiclass into Rogue - perhaps even take Rogue at first level. Your bonus human feat should be Able Learner from Races of Destiny. This reduces the cost of buying a rank in a skill that is not a class skill for the character to 1. Since (for the purposes of determining max ranks) Rogue skills are class skills, that will give you enough (hopefully 6 skillpoints per level is achievable for Wizard levels) to deal with some of the Rogue's roles in the information gathering and scouting areas.
Cartigan 04-09-07, 07:58 AM	Spellthief/Cleric?
arael777 04-09-07, 08:33 AM	Seconding Druid5 for 'great spellcasting' 'wildshape into awesome melee-er with full access to spells' and 'companion who's better than most any straight fighter.' Go riding dog trained for war with barding (any armor can be made into barding) and make sure you take Natural Spell.
runestar 04-09-07, 08:46 AM	You might want to ask for a reroll as well. That is the equivalent of a 22 point buy sequence you are looking at...:weep: As Merestil Haye has suggested, a human rogue1/wiz4 might be a respectable choice. With able learner, you will be able to continue maxing out key rogue skills on the cheap. Still, that is not many skills you have access to. Ask the barb and monk if they will help take over some skills such as spot, listen and sneak.
Cifer 04-09-07, 11:04 AM	I haven't really looked at it, but you might want to try the factotum from Dungeonscape (translates more or less literally into "Do-Everything") - it's got a little bit of spellcasting, a lot of skills, a little combat.
Sarrazon 04-09-07, 12:50 PM	People have said it already, but i deserves restating. Factotum, from dungeonscape. Awesome class for a party lacking a role or two. I'd also suggest Jack of all Trades as a feat (I think its from CompAdv), it allows you to use all skills as if you had one rank in them, iirc.
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 12:58 PM	First off, thank you all for your suggestions. You've been very helpful. Second, I perhaps should have mentioned what source material we're using in this campaign: Core Books Complete Warrior, Arcane, Divine, and Adventurer PH2 Forgotten Realms splat books So that kind of rules out the exotic classes and options some members were suggesting, such as artificer, binder, and able learner, unfortunately. Third, I realise that my ability scores aren't exactly stellar, but we've been using the "4d6-drop-one-die x 6, assign where you want" system for years, and I feel obliged to go with what the dice gave me. The 8 stat isn't great, but can be worked around.
Toran_A_Sunder 04-09-07, 02:10 PM	If those are the limits on your classes, I would suggest multiclassing bard and druid. You'll get all the awesome power, spellcasting and melee, of the druid, along with the skills of the bard. Plus you'll be an awesome buffer for the other two since there are three of you instead of 4 or 5. My two cps.
RainerNader 04-09-07, 02:19 PM	Here's my take: Play a cleric with the Magic domain, multiclass into rogue, and take the Shadowbane Stalker prestige class. This should give you: - Divine spells, healing - Trapfinding and skill points - Some ability to use arcane items (especially if you pump Use Magic Device with your rogue skills)
Droma 04-09-07, 03:35 PM	I would have to go with the lvl 5 druid for healing + animal companion. Or possibly go multiclass rogue 1/ranger 4. Animal companion again with healing and still a pretty good skill monkey.
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 04:51 PM	If those are the limits on your classes, I would suggest multiclassing bard and druid. You'll get all the awesome power, spellcasting and melee, of the druid, along with the skills of the bard. Plus you'll be an awesome buffer for the other two since there are three of you instead of 4 or 5. My two cps. Thanks for the advice, but one question: wouldn't I be better off multiclassing rogue and druid in that instance?
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 04:55 PM	If your group has a deficiency in the skilled character department, play a Human and make sure he has a good Int. Good Int steers towards Wizards anyway (or Beguiler, which does seem to be an option). However, I would multiclass into Rogue - perhaps even take Rogue at first level. Yeah, that's why one of my options was Sun Elf Rogue 1 / Wizard 4. My first level would be Rogue to get all the skill points. He'd have 17, then 18 INT (with the stat increment at level 4). And he'd have plenty of magic with four levels of wizard. The downside is that I'd have to allocate a 12 score to CON just so that the -2 penalty doesn't give me a CON stat with penalties. Maybe I'm better off playing a human version of the same character.
kelvinaw273 04-09-07, 05:36 PM	Bard will cover most of your bases that the others have missed. Alternatively, ask the DM if you can go Gestalt as there are only three of you.
mlund 04-09-07, 06:16 PM	Honestly, the correct solution here is to tell your table that making you carry all the spell-casting, talking, and trap-removal duties is not only unfair, but not conducive to the survival of anyone's characters. There are a couple of different ways you can go here: For conventional games, the best thing to do would probably be to offer to play a Beguiler to handle the skill-intensive stuff and the Arcane crowd control. One of them needs to step up an play a Cleric. Just take a cleric with a Thug-god who likes the War Domain and you can be a fine warrior. That'll get you through a "normal" campaign with your bases covered. The other option is to see if your table is inclined to go low-to-no magic. If the players want to thug monsters with swords and the DM is willing to put in the effort to make the game fun, you guys can basically go Conan and wreck stuff. Remember, you don't have to play an iconic game. - Marty Lund
AnonymousInternets 04-09-07, 06:36 PM	First thing's first: go Grey Elf. You need a caster who can use skills. How can you pass up +2 DEX and +2 INT for no LA? Alrighty... Your best choice is factotum (Dungeonscape). They can cast spells and can skill better than a rogue oftentimes. You'll be able to do everything well (save fighting, but that's covered) when you need to. Your second best choice is artificer (Eberron). They can function as anything due to their crafting abilities. However, artificer needs a lot of time to make things, and can't adapt on the fly like the factotum can. It's able to do everything you need, but not always when you need it. Your third best choice is druid. Wild shape will let you get through most sticky situations, and you've got nice spells to go with it. Unfortunately, you don't have skills like disable device and search, which are important for any party "skiller." It will do the situational things you need when you need it, but can't always deliver on actual skills. Your fourth best choice is spellthief (CV). They can do most of what a rogue can, and can steal and cast spells. The downside is that you'll find that you won't be nearly as readily able to cast what the party will need if you have to steal everything from other casters. It will be able to handle the tinkering and skill-related stuff, but will lack in spell adaptability. Your fifth best choice is bard. A strong number of skill points and decent spellcasting are right there. It also suffers from the same issues as the druid in that it doesn't have disable device, search, and the like. Although you'd be better at interaction, you wouldn't be very good at combat, and you wouldn't be as adaptable for non-confrontational situations as the other classes. It will be okay at handling both spellcasting and skill use, but neither will be up to par with what you could have. So yeah. Factotum would be first choice, artificer if you'd rather go for that. The others are all decent, but the first two are definitely the most suited for such a job. Of course, you can multiclass some wizard/rogue or cleric/rogue and the like, but they won't be as good as a factotum or artificer. If your DM doesn't want "exotic" classes, I'd still ask him about factotum (Artificers are from a different campaign setting, so that might be a bit much). Factotum is from Dungeonscape, which is not from another campaign setting or anything like that, and it would really complete the party.
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 06:54 PM	OK, what IS Dungeonscape? And where can I find a complete description of the factotum class?
AnonymousInternets 04-09-07, 07:17 PM	Well, you've probably heard of Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stormwreck (the environment books). Dungeonscape is kind of like one of those, just with the "dungeon environment" instead of a traditional one (although it's not structured very similarly, as it doesn't have much player stuff other than Factotum). It's mostly designed to help DM's construct dungeons. Factotum is the ultimate jack-of-all-trades. It can use inspiration points they get based on level to use per encounter to do this like add your level to a skill check as long as you have a rank in it (though you can't do this to the same skill more than once per day) and emulate the abilities of another class, all while having an adaptive spell list that goes up to level 7.
Cifer 04-09-07, 07:19 PM	OK, what IS Dungeonscape? A new sourcebook that came out IIRC last month. And where can I find a complete description of the factotum class? In Dungeonscape.
weepingminotaur 04-09-07, 08:32 PM	Well, since it's a sourcebook we don't have, we can't really use it, unfortunately.
Xavon 04-09-07, 10:00 PM	Bard will cover most of your bases that the others have missed. Alternatively, ask the DM if you can go Gestalt as there are only three of you. Seconded. If you don't have at least four people, gestalt is the best way to cover your bases.
Saberus 04-10-07, 02:00 AM	Jack of All Trades feat from CAdv, it gives you a half-rank in all skills. Go Warmage/Cleric on top of that. And if those stats hurt too much, I'll roll 4d6 drop lowest: 15, 12, 13, 12, 11, 17. I roll great on stats, but not so hot on anything else. (My spellcasters fequently miss touch AC!)
Kintara 04-10-07, 02:17 AM	I second the recommendation for Beguiler. It's a fun class that gives you spellcasting ability, trapfinding, and a lot of other skill monkey abilities. You should complement your friends pretty well, methinks.
Redclock_the_Untimely 04-10-07, 03:35 AM	The Dragon Shaman is already a part time healer, so divine magic is optional, which leaves arcane magic and skill monkey. With only three players and you as an experienced DM would you be willing to take the leadership feat at level 6 to take up party slack? If you can do that then all bases can be covered with only a temporary party gap. Just my :twocents:.
ShubNiggurath 04-10-07, 07:04 AM	I second the druid suggestion. It also helps giving you an extra meat shield and helps with your terrible scores. WIS and CON=15, all the rest... who cares? You are a druid. Specialize in summoning, and let your summons get the trap damage.
Dachannien 04-10-07, 02:26 PM	I say pick whatever class you think would be fun. If your DM is doing a good job, s/he will tailor the adventure to mesh well with the abilities you have covered, and won't inundate you with things that the holes in your skill set make you vulnerable to.
ShubNiggurath 04-10-07, 07:09 PM	I disagree with the above poster. The DM has already too much work on his hands that he should not be burdened with the additional task of tailoring the encounters to the party. The DM builds a world and places creatures and NPC. He creates the economic and sociological side of the world and that's it. The only additional work that he should be asked to do is to tailor the power (CR) of the encounter to the group (and not even always! See below), not changing his world to fit the PCs. Let me give an example, if I, as a DM, decide that there is an underground world under city X filled by undeads and commanded by a Lich and my 4 players play a group with no cleric, I should not go back and change the world so that the underground world is filled by minotaurs and goblins! If my PCs go there and are ECL 9 they will battle CR 7-11 undeads. If they insist on exploring that world they will get clues about the incredibly strong undead commander. If they seek him they die. Obviously if the PCs avoid going in the underground world in my example they may not battle an undead EVER in their career... it is their choice. But THEY must choose the battles that they can fight, they should not rely on divine (DM) intervention to move the encounters they cannot face out of the way. What is the consequence of this? A very strong (read:optimized) and balanced group will be able to have more freedom of choice in their adventures... 4 fighters will have to raid orc villages for all their career. The power of many encounter is tailored to the PCs, not the type... or even the power of pre-determined monsters-NPCs. Thus having a balanced and optimized group is strongly recommended. At least in my games.