Buying a Keen weapon VS taking Improved Critical [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying a Keen weapon VS taking Improved Critical [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darryl_Licke
09-14-07, 01:18 PM I don't know the cost of getting a weapon imbued with keen but in your opinion which is the better process to improve your critical threat range.

If I Keen every weapon...sure it will cost more but I free up a feat slot.

If I take IC, I use up a feat slot and almost lock me into using only one type of weapon.

Thoughts?
wonlee76
09-14-07, 01:31 PM Depends on the PC:

If its a fighter that already invested feats in WF and WS, IC makes sense since that fighter already is locked into a specific weapon.

If its a barbarian (or some other class that doesn't revolve around a specific weapon), it becomes a matter of what would you be giving up. Is that +1 weapon enhancement more valuable then the feat? Would you rather save that +1 for something else (wounding, speed, collision, thundering, flaming burst, shadowstriking, etc.)?

Is improved crit a pre-req for something that your PC would want? If so, that IC becomes more valuable (I can't think of anything other than a certain epic feat that requires IC that is actually decent but there may be a prestige class or something that needs IC).
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
09-14-07, 01:53 PM I really miss the days when these stacked...
Prator_the_Legendary
09-14-07, 03:46 PM Wait, they don't stack anymore? Damn, man, that's uncool...
Some_call_me_Tim
09-14-07, 03:57 PM Depends on the PCTwo-weapon fighting is another reason. Those dual-scimitar wielders will benefit more with the feat.

Because it applies all weapons of that type it also comes in handy if you have multiple magic weapons or weapons of special materials that you change out to fight different foes.

How much money do you have to burn. Do you have a lot of feats? It sounds like the OP has more money than feats.
Drag0nUL
09-14-07, 03:57 PM It depends what you are trying to achieve with your character. If you have plenty of feats to spare (such as many fighter levels, is somebody still does that) you could take Improved Critical. However, most non-fighter builds tend to be pretty stretched in the feat department. For them Keen is a far better option.
danielinthewolvesden
09-14-07, 07:52 PM Keen is an add'l +1 to a weapon. Thus a +1 Keen is 8000.

No need to Keen more than one, if you want more than one weapon "keened" then go for the Feat. In the case of a Fighter, ALWAYS go for the Feat, of course.
TheVatican
09-14-07, 08:02 PM Just by a scabbard of keen edges. That way you do not waste a feat or spend the +1 enchant on that and you can use it on something better.
VulcanStormwrath
09-14-07, 09:59 PM Scabbard is probably the best.
Then the feat because anyone who gets too attached to a single fancy weapon is just begging for the DM to unleash the evil sunderin' monks bolsterd by a vanguard of rust monsters.
Arbitrary Aardvark
09-24-07, 03:41 PM Scabbard is probably the best.
Then the feat because anyone who gets too attached to a single fancy weapon is just begging for the DM to unleash the evil sunderin' monks bolsterd by a vanguard of rust monsters.

That's why my 14th level barbarian has an adamantine greatsword. I took improved critical because the DM never hands out decent magic items -- about the only ones we get are those listed for the generic NPCs, so we got lots of +1 and +2 bastard swords :) Fortunately, he' s allowed us to pay for upgrading our weapons, so no my greatsword is also human-bane. (70% of our opponents are other humans. I asked him if was OK, and if there would be any legal problems, and he said no.)
goawayugh
09-24-07, 03:50 PM The thing with the feat is that you can just pick up any one's weapon and it works for you (assuming of course that it is the right kind of weapon). With keen you need your weapon. I don't like relying on material things, I like most of my power to come from me. If you have a character that relies heavily on magic items, what happens when you get thrown in jail with out all of your goodies? (yes, this tends to happen to me).
pres_man
09-24-07, 04:04 PM Another thing to think about, you can't put Keen on all weapons. For example, you can't get a keen warhammer. But you can take Improved Crit for warhammers.
goawayugh
09-24-07, 04:07 PM Another thing to think about, you can't put Keen on all weapons. For example, you can't get a keen warhammer. But you can take Improved Crit for warhammers.

I know there used to be impact (A&EG I think), which was the same thing as keen but for bludgeoning, I don't know if they ever updated it.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
09-24-07, 04:12 PM It's in the Spell Compendium.
Bat
09-25-07, 08:45 AM I know there used to be impact (A&EG I think), which was the same thing as keen but for bludgeoning, I don't know if they ever updated it.

I've seen it in the Magic Item Compendium recently. I can't remember what it was called, but I saw it because I was looking for enhancements specifically for warhammers, as that is what my character uses.
Sunblast
09-25-07, 09:47 AM Two-weapon fighting is another reason. Those dual-scimitar wielders will benefit more with the feat.
Hey, that's the character I'm introducing this friday! Not enough BAB to get improved critical just yet, but I'm thinking that buying that one feat might save me a lot of money.
Just by a scabbard of keen edges. That way you do not waste a feat or spend the +1 enchant on that and you can use it on something better.
Wha? Speak more of this. What book is that from? :confused:
Infernostrider
09-25-07, 09:49 AM take BOTH!
goawayugh
09-25-07, 09:51 AM Wha? Speak more of this. What book is that from? :confused:

You're kidding right? DMG. Or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges).
Darryl_Licke
09-25-07, 01:45 PM take BOTH!

they don't stack.

thanks for the great advice everyone. The insight in needing MY weapon if it's imbued with keen is something I had not considered. In any case the idea for my character is to get my rogue/shadowdancer to roughly somewhere in the 5d6 SA range and use TWF with two weapons I can Finesse: kukri and rapier. If they are keen/IC it doesn't matter because the whole point of my build is to get into position with my shadow jump ability, wait in hiding, then BAM!!!! two critical hits with Telling blow so my 5d6 is applied to both weapons and then multiplied by 2.

so that's 6d6x2 TWO TIMES per full attack...me likes...or soemthing to that effect.
goawayugh
09-25-07, 01:56 PM they don't stack.

thanks for the great advice everyone. The insight in needing MY weapon if it's imbued with keen is something I had not considered. In any case the idea for my character is to get my rogue/shadowdancer to roughly somewhere in the 5d6 SA range and use TWF with two weapons I can Finesse: kukri and rapier. If they are keen/IC it doesn't matter because the whole point of my build is to get into position with my shadow jump ability, wait in hiding, then BAM!!!! two critical hits with Telling blow so my 5d6 is applied to both weapons and then multiplied by 2.

so that's 6d6x2 TWO TIMES per full attack...me likes...or soemthing to that effect.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but SA doesn't get multiplied on a crit.
BowenSilverclaw1986
09-25-07, 01:56 PM You do realise that Sneak Attack damage doesn't get multiplied on a critical hit, right?
CCS
09-25-07, 02:22 PM Depends on the PC:

Also depends alot upon your specific campaign.

In the game I'm playing in on Sunday evenings, even if I had enough coin, our parties nowhere near ANY source of keen weapons, scabard of keen edges, or anyone who could upgrade our equipment.
So I had to take the feat....

And as for the idea that taking the feat locks you into only using that type of weapon? Bull.
Nothing in that feat detractsfrom your ability to use other weapons.
Yes, I may have taken IC for the weapon my character most often uses. But I'll still swing axes, maces, great swords, fight with a dagger, or fire a missle weapon, etc if circumstances warrent it. Because sometimes my favorite weapon ISN'T the right one for a job - despite its enhanced crit range.
Sunblast
09-25-07, 02:49 PM You're kidding right? DMG. Or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges).
Honestly, I had never heard of that one. Also, I suck at looking up specific items in the Magic Item Compendium if they're not specifically listed in there. :-(

Thanks for the link, BTW. That thing is awfully expensive, but it could pay off at much later levels.
goawayugh
09-25-07, 03:10 PM It's not in MIC, it's in DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide). Everything is in alphabetical order. Or you can go to the SRD and use their search bar.
Darryl_Licke
09-25-07, 03:15 PM Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but SA doesn't get multiplied on a crit.

Telling Blow. Players handbook II.
goawayugh
09-25-07, 03:27 PM Telling Blow. Players handbook II.

You are mis-reading the feat. It does not multiply SA damage on a crit. What it does is let you add your SA damage when you get a crit, even if it is in a situation where you would not normally be allowed to SA. It says right in the feat description:Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage.
Darryl_Licke
09-25-07, 03:31 PM You are mis-reading the feat. It does not multiply SA damage on a crit. What it does is let you add your SA damage when you get a crit, even if it is in a situation where you would not normally be allowed to SA. It says right in the feat description:

well aren't you just the party pooper....
goawayugh
09-25-07, 03:33 PM well aren't you just the party pooper....

I try...
Orenmir
09-25-07, 05:24 PM It's not in MIC, it's in DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide).

Every item in the DMG is also in the MIC -- Just look in the back (index).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darryl_Licke 09-14-07, 01:18 PM	I don't know the cost of getting a weapon imbued with keen but in your opinion which is the better process to improve your critical threat range. If I Keen every weapon...sure it will cost more but I free up a feat slot. If I take IC, I use up a feat slot and almost lock me into using only one type of weapon. Thoughts?
wonlee76 09-14-07, 01:31 PM	Depends on the PC: If its a fighter that already invested feats in WF and WS, IC makes sense since that fighter already is locked into a specific weapon. If its a barbarian (or some other class that doesn't revolve around a specific weapon), it becomes a matter of what would you be giving up. Is that +1 weapon enhancement more valuable then the feat? Would you rather save that +1 for something else (wounding, speed, collision, thundering, flaming burst, shadowstriking, etc.)? Is improved crit a pre-req for something that your PC would want? If so, that IC becomes more valuable (I can't think of anything other than a certain epic feat that requires IC that is actually decent but there may be a prestige class or something that needs IC).
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-14-07, 01:53 PM	I really miss the days when these stacked...
Prator_the_Legendary 09-14-07, 03:46 PM	Wait, they don't stack anymore? Damn, man, that's uncool...
Some_call_me_Tim 09-14-07, 03:57 PM	Depends on the PCTwo-weapon fighting is another reason. Those dual-scimitar wielders will benefit more with the feat. Because it applies all weapons of that type it also comes in handy if you have multiple magic weapons or weapons of special materials that you change out to fight different foes. How much money do you have to burn. Do you have a lot of feats? It sounds like the OP has more money than feats.
Drag0nUL 09-14-07, 03:57 PM	It depends what you are trying to achieve with your character. If you have plenty of feats to spare (such as many fighter levels, is somebody still does that) you could take Improved Critical. However, most non-fighter builds tend to be pretty stretched in the feat department. For them Keen is a far better option.
danielinthewolvesden 09-14-07, 07:52 PM	Keen is an add'l +1 to a weapon. Thus a +1 Keen is 8000. No need to Keen more than one, if you want more than one weapon "keened" then go for the Feat. In the case of a Fighter, ALWAYS go for the Feat, of course.
TheVatican 09-14-07, 08:02 PM	Just by a scabbard of keen edges. That way you do not waste a feat or spend the +1 enchant on that and you can use it on something better.
VulcanStormwrath 09-14-07, 09:59 PM	Scabbard is probably the best. Then the feat because anyone who gets too attached to a single fancy weapon is just begging for the DM to unleash the evil sunderin' monks bolsterd by a vanguard of rust monsters.
Arbitrary Aardvark 09-24-07, 03:41 PM	Scabbard is probably the best. Then the feat because anyone who gets too attached to a single fancy weapon is just begging for the DM to unleash the evil sunderin' monks bolsterd by a vanguard of rust monsters. That's why my 14th level barbarian has an adamantine greatsword. I took improved critical because the DM never hands out decent magic items -- about the only ones we get are those listed for the generic NPCs, so we got lots of +1 and +2 bastard swords :) Fortunately, he' s allowed us to pay for upgrading our weapons, so no my greatsword is also human-bane. (70% of our opponents are other humans. I asked him if was OK, and if there would be any legal problems, and he said no.)
goawayugh 09-24-07, 03:50 PM	The thing with the feat is that you can just pick up any one's weapon and it works for you (assuming of course that it is the right kind of weapon). With keen you need your weapon. I don't like relying on material things, I like most of my power to come from me. If you have a character that relies heavily on magic items, what happens when you get thrown in jail with out all of your goodies? (yes, this tends to happen to me).
pres_man 09-24-07, 04:04 PM	Another thing to think about, you can't put Keen on all weapons. For example, you can't get a keen warhammer. But you can take Improved Crit for warhammers.
goawayugh 09-24-07, 04:07 PM	Another thing to think about, you can't put Keen on all weapons. For example, you can't get a keen warhammer. But you can take Improved Crit for warhammers. I know there used to be impact (A&EG I think), which was the same thing as keen but for bludgeoning, I don't know if they ever updated it.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-24-07, 04:12 PM	It's in the Spell Compendium.
Bat 09-25-07, 08:45 AM	I know there used to be impact (A&EG I think), which was the same thing as keen but for bludgeoning, I don't know if they ever updated it. I've seen it in the Magic Item Compendium recently. I can't remember what it was called, but I saw it because I was looking for enhancements specifically for warhammers, as that is what my character uses.
Sunblast 09-25-07, 09:47 AM	Two-weapon fighting is another reason. Those dual-scimitar wielders will benefit more with the feat. Hey, that's the character I'm introducing this friday! Not enough BAB to get improved critical just yet, but I'm thinking that buying that one feat might save me a lot of money. Just by a scabbard of keen edges. That way you do not waste a feat or spend the +1 enchant on that and you can use it on something better. Wha? Speak more of this. What book is that from? :confused:
Infernostrider 09-25-07, 09:49 AM	take BOTH!
goawayugh 09-25-07, 09:51 AM	Wha? Speak more of this. What book is that from? :confused: You're kidding right? DMG. Or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges).
Darryl_Licke 09-25-07, 01:45 PM	take BOTH! they don't stack. thanks for the great advice everyone. The insight in needing MY weapon if it's imbued with keen is something I had not considered. In any case the idea for my character is to get my rogue/shadowdancer to roughly somewhere in the 5d6 SA range and use TWF with two weapons I can Finesse: kukri and rapier. If they are keen/IC it doesn't matter because the whole point of my build is to get into position with my shadow jump ability, wait in hiding, then BAM!!!! two critical hits with Telling blow so my 5d6 is applied to both weapons and then multiplied by 2. so that's 6d6x2 TWO TIMES per full attack...me likes...or soemthing to that effect.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 01:56 PM	they don't stack. thanks for the great advice everyone. The insight in needing MY weapon if it's imbued with keen is something I had not considered. In any case the idea for my character is to get my rogue/shadowdancer to roughly somewhere in the 5d6 SA range and use TWF with two weapons I can Finesse: kukri and rapier. If they are keen/IC it doesn't matter because the whole point of my build is to get into position with my shadow jump ability, wait in hiding, then BAM!!!! two critical hits with Telling blow so my 5d6 is applied to both weapons and then multiplied by 2. so that's 6d6x2 TWO TIMES per full attack...me likes...or soemthing to that effect. Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but SA doesn't get multiplied on a crit.
BowenSilverclaw1986 09-25-07, 01:56 PM	You do realise that Sneak Attack damage doesn't get multiplied on a critical hit, right?
CCS 09-25-07, 02:22 PM	Depends on the PC: Also depends alot upon your specific campaign. In the game I'm playing in on Sunday evenings, even if I had enough coin, our parties nowhere near ANY source of keen weapons, scabard of keen edges, or anyone who could upgrade our equipment. So I had to take the feat.... And as for the idea that taking the feat locks you into only using that type of weapon? Bull. Nothing in that feat detractsfrom your ability to use other weapons. Yes, I may have taken IC for the weapon my character most often uses. But I'll still swing axes, maces, great swords, fight with a dagger, or fire a missle weapon, etc if circumstances warrent it. Because sometimes my favorite weapon ISN'T the right one for a job - despite its enhanced crit range.
Sunblast 09-25-07, 02:49 PM	You're kidding right? DMG. Or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges). Honestly, I had never heard of that one. Also, I suck at looking up specific items in the Magic Item Compendium if they're not specifically listed in there. :-( Thanks for the link, BTW. That thing is awfully expensive, but it could pay off at much later levels.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 03:10 PM	It's not in MIC, it's in DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide). Everything is in alphabetical order. Or you can go to the SRD and use their search bar.
Darryl_Licke 09-25-07, 03:15 PM	Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but SA doesn't get multiplied on a crit. Telling Blow. Players handbook II.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 03:27 PM	Telling Blow. Players handbook II. You are mis-reading the feat. It does not multiply SA damage on a crit. What it does is let you add your SA damage when you get a crit, even if it is in a situation where you would not normally be allowed to SA. It says right in the feat description:Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage.
Darryl_Licke 09-25-07, 03:31 PM	You are mis-reading the feat. It does not multiply SA damage on a crit. What it does is let you add your SA damage when you get a crit, even if it is in a situation where you would not normally be allowed to SA. It says right in the feat description: well aren't you just the party pooper....
goawayugh 09-25-07, 03:33 PM	well aren't you just the party pooper.... I try...
Orenmir 09-25-07, 05:24 PM	It's not in MIC, it's in DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide). Every item in the DMG is also in the MIC -- Just look in the back (index).