Post/Author/DateTime	Post
assre 01-22-07, 10:38 AM	Hi, I just had an argument with my DM. My lvl8 sorc was just "snatched" by a mature adult black dragon and dropped to a swamp from 150ft. Needless to say he died. Later, after the gaming session, I was talking about making a new character. So the DM said: "So you don't want to get raised from the dead? Not that it's up to you, what the rest of the players decide to do with your remains". So I replied that, indeed it's up to me. I can always refuse the raise dead/resurrection/reincarnate as it says in the PHB. So he claims, that if I refuse to be raised from the dead and instead make a new PC, my old dead sorc becomes a NPC, that he can resurrect from the dead, if he wants to. I told that he can't do that, because dead or alive, in or out of campaign, it will always be my PC and he cannot steal it. So I want to ask from the community, what's your position on this. If a PC exits a campaign (by dying or just walking away) and is replaced by a new PC, is the old PC free game for the DM, or will it always remain as a property of the player who created it?
Need_A_Life 01-22-07, 10:45 AM	Depends on how it's done... having a character make an appearance later can be fun... But if he's doing it out of spite or out of boredom, then tell him to stay on his side of the GM screen.
Edymnion 01-22-07, 10:50 AM	By the RAW, no, if you say the soul is not willing to return, then it is not willing to return and nothing the DM can say can change that. The real problem here is that the DM thinks that he gets to keep the PCs and do whatever he wants with them. I've encountered these before, and I have found that there is only one good answer for it. If after talking to them and explaining why you don't want it to happen, and they still say they're going to do it if you like it or not, then pack your bags and walk out on the game. The DM is controlling, does not respect your rights as a player, and doesn't care if you're having fun or not. Which makes him a bad DM in my book. Tell the other players what happened, and then walk out. Its amazing how fast even the worst DM will see the error of his ways when he suddenly has no players because he's been acting like an ass.
Darkwolf71 01-22-07, 10:56 AM	PCs belong to the players. That's it. Period. End of debate. Now, then. Unfortunately. The campaign setting and everything in it belongs to the DM. So technically, if your DM wishes to be a complete jerk, there's not much you can do about it. Personally, I think I'd give him a punch in the nose for this. But, I have a bit of a temper. :angelhide
Oblix 01-22-07, 11:14 AM	Can he force you to return your soul to your body and have you play it? No. Can he bring your sorcerer back to life as an NPC undead/wraith through necromancy? DM Rule 0. All of these zombies that you come upon in campaigns and carelessly slaughter. Do you think they CHOSE to become a flesh devouring zombie? Probably not. Your dead body is now the property of the DM, and he shall do with it what he pleases if you choose not to be resurrected.
Merestil Haye 01-22-07, 11:17 AM	What has been said is accurate, and covers about 99% of the ground. The dead character can refuse to return from the dead, and nothing and nobody in the game can overrule that and decide that the character does return. Except (and this is the 1%) a deity. If the Resurrection spell is cast by a being with divine rank, a mortal cannot refuse to return to life. And who runs the deities? (That's a rhetorical question. No-one need answer.) The thing is that if the DM brings an ex-PC back to life like that he'd better have a good reason, and either be using the character with the player's agreement or have long since lost contact with the character's player. Otherwise the concerns which Edymnion raised become very likely indeed.
PhaedrusXY 01-22-07, 11:21 AM	I don't see what the big deal is. If you're not playing the character, then it isn't a PC anymore, and the DM can do whatever he wants with it. I don't see why you'd even care if the DM wants to use it as an NPC, if you don't want to play it.
User5127 01-22-07, 11:25 AM	well if the DM really wanted to be an ass he coulc jsut create a carbon copy of your PC as an NPC and then claim that this character existed already and does everything your character would have done. he didn't really resurect you, jsut create a replicat NPC.
Oblix 01-22-07, 11:27 AM	I don't see what the big deal is. If you're not playing the character, then it isn't a PC anymore, and the DM can do whatever he wants with it. I don't see why you'd even care if the DM wants to use it as an NPC, if you don't want to play it. Some folks get attached and sentimental about their characters. Especially ones that have progressed through, literally years of campaigns. To see a character man handled and sullied by a jerk of a DM who isn't respecting the bond the player might have with the character is a bit low. That said, I think it'd make for a great story.
TwistedPuppy 01-22-07, 12:41 PM	I'd say it depends on how the DM is using the character as an NPC. If he hasn't done it yet, and you don't know what his plans are, why not give the DM the benefit of a doubt that he might make it interesting? Assuming the DM and the OP are friends, the OP needs to wait and see how it is handled. I told that he can't do that, because dead or alive, in or out of campaign, it will always be my PC and he cannot steal it. This part of the OP's post - specifically the use of the word "steal" - sends up red flags. It sounds to me as if he and the DM have an adversarial relationship to begin with. If you are convinced ahead of time that the DM is just going to use the now-NPC to shaft the party, why are you gaming with him? In this case, isn't it also just possible the OP is being a bit vindictive toward the DM because his character was killed? Remember that unless the other party members dispose of the body in a fashion that makes it impossible to bring back to life, some other entity could inhabit the body at a later point. The DM has every right to do that. I'm not going to say the DM is right in this case, but we don't have his side of the story, either. OP - I'm not saying you are being vindictive, or that your attitude isn't justified. I'm saying that none of us on the boards were there when you spoke to your DM, and we don't know exactly why he said what he did. I do suggest you examine your own motives carefully before you throw your DM under the bus. For all I know he deserves it; but then again, maybe not.
zzakk2to2 01-22-07, 12:42 PM	Life And Death Prerequisites Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability. Benefit The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life. Notes This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability. If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant. This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped, provided the soul is not held by a deity of higher rank than the one using this ability. This ability cannot restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability of a deity with a higher rank. Rest After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected. Deities whose portfolio includes death do not have to rest after using this ability. Suggested Portfolio Elements Death, supreme. Mass Life And Death Prerequisites Divine rank 16, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability, Life and Death salient divine ability. Benefit The deity can designate any number of mortals and snuffs out their lives. Or the deity can designate any number of dead mortals and restore them to life. Notes No two mortals affected by a single use of this ability can be more than one mile apart per rank of the deity. The ability is otherwise identical with the Life and Death salient divine ability. Rest After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per levels or Hit Dice of the creatures affected. Suggested Portfolio Elements Death, supreme. no a diety cant bring you back unwillingly.
Kursk 01-22-07, 12:54 PM	Hi, So I want to ask from the community, what's your position on this. If a PC exits a campaign (by dying or just walking away) and is replaced by a new PC, is the old PC free game for the DM, or will it always remain as a property of the player who created it? The DM can do whatever he wants with dead PC's. If you don't want him dead then resurrect. Otherwise take another character.
Gnorish 01-22-07, 12:59 PM	Your DM cannot resurrect your character against your will but there is nothing stopping him bringing him back as undead. He could have an NPC create undead with your character's corpse and then awaken the undead. He could do it but why he would do it...I have no idea.
Salla 01-22-07, 01:19 PM	Technically, the DM can do whatever he bloody well wants. A DM who abuses this power, however, is likely to be short of players. So, yes, he can resurrect your character without your permission. However, if you want to be a counter-jerk, you can always have your character take this as a divine sign that he's indestructible, and thus do incredibly STUPID things because he now has 'proof' that he can't be killed. "I'm going to jump down the dragon's mouth and fireball it from the inside!" The more reasonable approach, of course, is to say that you don't want to play the character ... he died, that's cool, you're not mad, it happens, and you'd like to do something else. If he forces the issue, though ... well, control freak DMs are always a problem.
zzakk2to2 01-22-07, 01:36 PM	If the DM obviously wants your character alive ask why. maybe there is a good reason for this and if there is not play you guy like someone who does not care wether they live or die and turn him into the equivalent of a suicide bomber.
Valthonis 01-22-07, 02:15 PM	Can he do it. Yes Should he do it. No The character is yours and the DM souldn't use it without your approval. This is of cousre just a personal opinion. He could always say that another Rez was attempted after you refused and made another character and that your old character decided to come back on the second Rez. If I were doing this I would ask my player first, but that's becuse I see the character as an idea dreamed up and brought to life by my player. My friends and I have done things like this in the past. Most of the time, he DM asks the player if h can use his old character in the session and it usually makes a good story twist.
Falln 01-22-07, 02:19 PM	If you don't wnat to play the PC any more, it becomes a NPC. Maybe the DM has some story that needs to be finished. Maybe your PC had some unfinished buisiness so it's you the player who doesn't wnat the PC to come back and not the PC. Our DM does the same once in a while, we sometimes meet anti-hero's. The opposite of a hero we played. It can be fun once in a while, if it doesn't happen over and over again.
xandros2000 01-22-07, 02:32 PM	Well according to the rules the pcs cant res. an unwilling dead character. I also understand the bond between a player and his characters (even the dead ones). I have never let another player or DM play my character if I was unable to play, and I always discouraged others from doing so when I DM. But it seems like maybe he wants the sorcerer to remain in the game for some plot purpose. He may have a great destiny planned for that character in his storyline. It might be worth it to find out. Great things may be in store for that character.
Pippa 01-22-07, 03:19 PM	I'm more biassed towards saying that no, the DM shouldn't do this if the character's player doesn't like it, but consider this: Perhaps the reason why the DM would go through the trouble of declaring your dead PC an NPC and getting him ressurected, is that there is some important plot point or other attached to your sorcerer's persona, something he cannot transfer to any other PC. Perhaps you should ask your DM if it is essential for his storyarc/plot if your sorcerer lives (even though he was killed by an NPC dragon). Figure out the upsides and downsides, and then decide what you do. I don't know what's your DM like or what he 'd do in your situation, but if I can give you one all-round advice, it's talking. Sure the DM 's allmighty, but as persons everybody's equal, and if you personally would feel uneasy seeing your ex-sorcerer being NPC'ed around, your DM should respect that, as well as on the other hand players should allow their DM to be unorthodox if the situation desires it. Strictly answering your question, "If a PC exits a campaign (by dying or just walking away) and is replaced by a new PC, is the old PC free game for the DM, or will it always remain as a property of the player who created it?", I must say it depends. It depends on how much I liked that particular PC, how he re-enters the game (zombified, posessed or just ressurected), and his role throughout the campaign. Most certainly I would like to have a word with my DM in advance, to rule one thing or other out. For example, I can imagine myself enjoying a cameo of an ex-PC in some cases, but not all, and most likely I will not like it when the NPC stays with the party my new Pc is in. That just don't feel right.
assre 01-22-07, 03:47 PM	DM is a good friend of mine, so I'm not really going to do anything counter-productive. Having a tandrum and acting like I'm indestructible would be pretty ****** for the rest of the players. It might be, that he probably wants me to keep playing the sorc, because I'm the only arcane caster in the group. I know that characters die and I have no problem with dying, but my group is ****** poor and raise dead is going to bring them to bankruptcy. Plus I think making and playing a new character can be a lot of fun. I was talking about building my new character so I won't have to waste time on it during our next gaming session. And he said that I might not have a choice if the group decides to raise me. And the way he put it out, was that group is going to resurrect him whether I like it or not and if I refuse, my PC will then be a NPC. To me it's a matter of princible. DMs own the world, but players own their characters, it's the only thing we can control. Living or dead it's not upto the DM to decide behalf the PCs what to do with their characters. If I say my PCs soul is not willing to return. It's not just something he can overrule and say that now he does, because I abandoned the character and now it belongs to him. Raising him as an undead (cool idea btw) would be perfectly ok for me, because then his soul wouldn't really be present. In my opinion DMs should follow the game rules just as much as the players. I have no objections for ad hoc rules, if it keeps the story going, but I don't like the "because I can - god complex". I might be a bit "bitter", because I had just recently picked greater invisibility, for my rogue friend, instead of dimension door that dimension door would have saved me. But instead I was crushed by a huge dragon and forced to a grapple, where only a natural 20 could have saved me from certain death. Maybe I'll cool off and settle for a reincarnate, hopefully resulting in something fun. Just wanted to hear your insight on the subject.
Edymnion 01-22-07, 04:33 PM	Really, just flat out tell your DM that you do not want the character coming back in any shape, form, or fashion. That you are not okay with it. The DM then has to either accept it, or prove himself a complete and utter ass. I would also make sure the rest of the players know this, because if they pay for that ressurection, then its paid for. The costly material components get used up reguardless of whether or not the soul actually returns. Which means they could be completely broke *AND* down a party member. Also, if they know you don't want to play that character anymore, they will more than likely side with you to keep him dead.
Issabella 01-22-07, 05:22 PM	when I Dm...which has always been the last 4 years....grrr lazy players, I wantta game too!.....errr I always have the player decide if they want to be rezzed, its their character
Hack and Smasher 01-22-07, 05:26 PM	I would assume, before attempting to raise, res, reicarnate at least a speak with dead to check if you want to come back since its cheaper than res. Can yes, should no.
Mock26 01-22-07, 05:50 PM	I would say that once you decide to create a new character that you, the player, give up all control of the old character. Once you give up that control then the character becomes an NPC. But, that is the way that I look at it, not you nor others.
zzakk2to2 01-22-07, 05:54 PM	I disagree. would you like your (insert fondly remembered PC) turned into an evil smuck out to screw you party over eventualy making you kill him/her? No you want to remember them as a great adventurer that settled down, died, or kept on adventuring.
User5127 01-22-07, 10:40 PM	Life And Death Prerequisites Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability. Benefit The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life. Notes This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability. If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant. This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped, provided the soul is not held by a deity of higher rank than the one using this ability. This ability cannot restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability of a deity with a higher rank. Rest After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected. Deities whose portfolio includes death do not have to rest after using this ability. Suggested Portfolio Elements Death, supreme. Mass Life And Death Prerequisites Divine rank 16, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability, Life and Death salient divine ability. Benefit The deity can designate any number of mortals and snuffs out their lives. Or the deity can designate any number of dead mortals and restore them to life. Notes No two mortals affected by a single use of this ability can be more than one mile apart per rank of the deity. The ability is otherwise identical with the Life and Death salient divine ability. Rest After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per levels or Hit Dice of the creatures affected. Suggested Portfolio Elements Death, supreme. no a diety cant bring you back unwillingly. And A deity with Alter Reality can shut that down. Since Alter Reality can do pretty much anything you want. so a god grabs your body, alters reality to allow him to res you against your will and bam your up and walking around. then makes you immortal so you can't go kill yourself out of spite.
Falln 01-23-07, 03:14 AM	I disagree. would you like your (insert fondly remembered PC) turned into an evil smuck out to screw you party over eventualy making you kill him/her? No you want to remember them as a great adventurer that settled down, died, or kept on adventuring. Would you prefer other stuff like: An evil necromancer steals some parts of your PC's body (like the head) to create a flesh Golem or some other kind of freak. Your PC gets some kind of curse on him, so his soul can't rest and he returns like a ghost to haunt the party. An evil priest changes your dead epic character in a very weak zombie. ... A lot can happen and maybe the DM in the OP isn't planning to do something "evil" with the PC. He probably only needs the PC for the plot. An other possibility is that the PC's friends can't possibly know if the PC wants to return or not. So they will spend money to try to return him. This is the moment the DM says, the soul doesn't want to return. IF the player says this to the other players, then everyone is metaplaying.
zzakk2to2 01-23-07, 09:01 AM	I was not talking about the topic but the post where the person said that once you start another PC the old ones are fair game for the DM. If the DM wants you back in control of it well ask what for then decide because it might be fun.
MindLich 01-23-07, 01:08 PM	The PC is no longer a PC when it is dead. It is no longer in the control of the Player, unless someone decides to revive it. If somehow an evil NPC tricks the character that he is good and wants to revive him, the player is not allowed to contradict the DM. If he wants, he gets mad, he leaves, etc. But he isn't allowed to negate the action took by the DM. Even if I don't understand why a player could get mad if something like that happened (it is very cool to confront a Paladin who was revived and fell out of grace by creating an alliance with the BBEG for example) but the player has all the right to do it, and so does the DM.
starfire311 01-23-07, 04:12 PM	IMO, once you stop playing a character, in a game world, then that character becomes an NPC, even if it is dead, and has chosen to not come back to life. I ahve had DMs bring back a character before after it died, adn I had moved on to another character, it was actually rather cool, we suffered a huge defeat and lost all but 1 PC, so 4 dead PCs and 1 live PC, we choose to roll up 4 new PCs, the BBEG rezes the 4 ex-PCs to fight us.
Nytmare 01-23-07, 04:19 PM	Death is not the end. In my game, when a character dies, attempting to raise or ressurect them is a decision left up to the other party members, with no input from the dead guy short of a "speak with dead". If we have time, and if the player is interested and the character has enough history behind them, I always try to do a bit of solo afterlife fluff. The campaign I run is a heavily religous Scarred Lands campaign with a lot of "heaven" info sprinkled about the different books. For the most part, a party is going to try to do everything they can to raise a fallen comrade. You have to wonder about the kind of people who wouldn't. Death is, for all intents and purposes, a horrible thing that your average person is going to avoid, and not bringing someone back from the dead is akin to not saving their life in the first place had you been given the option. On the flip side of that, there usually has to be a good reason why someone wouldn't want to come back. Of course, there are good reasons, but for the most part the reasons you hear tend to involve more metagaming than motivation. When we play, raising a friend from the dead is something that the characters just have to try do. You don't leave a friend behind, dead or alive, and you don't leave them dead without the option of coming back. But, just because your character gets raised doesn't mean that you have to keep on playing them. A just-back-from-the-grave adventurer has just as many, if not more, reasons to retire as anyone else. All that being said however, a retired character, dead or alive, is an NPC, and therefore, out of your control. A dead character might decide not to come back, but there is nothing to say that they didn't change their mind later on. In the end, as others have said before, what it really boils down to are the underlying motivations. Are you miffed that the DM is raising the character cause you're a control freak? Is the DM raising the character because he's purposefully trying to tick you off? If it's because the character meant a lot to you, why did you decide to stop playing them? You would have every reason in the world to wonder why a character you left in their afterlife of choice has come back from the dead, it's the DM's job to have a good reason.
Merestil Haye 01-23-07, 04:54 PM	There is a divine ability that will restore a creature to life against its will - it's called Gift of Life.This ability can restore a creature to life against its will, but only with the permission of whatever deity rules the underworld or the divine realm where the mortal’s soul resides.It is a bit conditional, however. Ti be honest, I didn't remember it as a Divine Salient Ability - I thought it was a general condition applying to all deities using any kind of life-restoring spell. But my Deities & Demigods is not immediately available and I haven't got the time to search. It may well be that I'm misremembering Gift of Life.
kelvinaw273 01-23-07, 05:38 PM	To an extent it does rely on the other players - if the other PCs want to spend the cash on getting your character raised you have no way of telling them that you dan't want that. What I would do is RP the afterlife (which depends on the character's piety and alignment) while the other PCs find your body (after a 150' fall into a swamp this may not be easy) and make a decision on whether to loot your stuff or get you raised. If they decide to get you raised they take you away, pay and convince a priest to do the deed ... and then you choose. Bear in mind, the players may not appreciate you wasting their cash if you look up from the comfy afterlife and say "Nah, I'm good hear thanks!" On the other hand, the opportunity to live again might not look so bad as you are suspended above the vats to recycle your soul down to lemur-chow ... in fact, it may inspire a lot of <ahem> soul searching if you are!
Rivelstraz 01-23-07, 08:16 PM	I'd personally don't bring back the character unless the player agrees with it. As a player, I'd feel uncomfortable (I think). Now, I've seen two cases of this (Perhaps more, but I remember those) A player lost his character fighting some vampires alone (he was very unlucky, but well) and he should have turned into a vampire by RAW. What I did is keep the character and left him with the unknown if his character had become a vampire or not. He was very attached to that character (his first character ever) but understood how hard it would be for the party to recover the body and all that, and made a new character. Some months later or even a year (life-time) I asked him if I could make his character return. He thought he was going to be a vampire, probably a villain, and saw the interesting twist in it and agreed. His character did, in fact, not become a vampire and the players rescued him. He had the chance to change back to his old character, but kept the new one and his old one became a NPC that would help them (with potions and wands) time to time, and that's it. Now, there's another case, but it's probably unrelated for personal reasons. There was a player (I was not the DM now) who well, just played D&D to be with us (his friends) and well, he tried to understand the rules but well, he was a bit slow and all that (no problem, he at least tried playing) but had to quit for a while (girlfriend :)) and the DM used his character, a human barbarian, as NPC. The barbarian, since the DM was playing him carelessly (right word?) eventually died and some weeks later he returned as an undead who seeks revenge (no idea about the name, it's in Monsters of Faerun) and we had to kill him, while the DM was mocking the player who left. Not much ago, this friend said he wanted to play again, and asked about his barbarian. I have no idea how he felt when the DM was laughing and saying "Woah, they have killed him like 6-7 times already" (He came back for revenge over and over). That's a very bad use of the "dead character = NPC" 'rule'.
Xavon 01-23-07, 08:47 PM	The DM can resurrect you against 'you' against your will. If he deems a god or a high-level spell can force you back to life, it does. After all, why should the soul be able to deny resurrection, and not trap the soul, gate, or other spells that force souls to cross planar boundries they might not wish to cross. However, even if the DM raises the character against your will, he cannot force you to play the character. You can drop a character at any time, for any or no reason. In one campaign I DMed, I added a 9th level Death domain spell that could resurrect a person against his or her will. But this spell was also available to the PCs, and they used it to interrogate the BBEG's henchman. Though we don't have the side of the DM in question, it sounds like in this case, the DM was trying to be a power-monger.
Regular_K 01-23-07, 08:52 PM	I say that once you stop playing a character, either by death, or just being bored with it, It becomes an NPC. I've raised characters from the dead, and brought them back as liches, zombies, and even demon possesed. My players have never had a problem with it, and they find it fun to see their once loved characters being their hated enemies. If my DM wanted my character after I was done with it, I wouldn't care. It's not like I'll ever use it again. So I rule in favor of your DM.
mcnoo 01-23-07, 08:55 PM	And who runs the deities? Wizards of the coast, who own the copyrights to the standard ones.