Can a familiar gain levels??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a familiar gain levels??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Petiepablox75
03-29-05, 10:49 PM Ok here we goooo...

The question is presented; can a familiar gain levels? It doesnt say anywhere that they cant, and if they cant what if they are polymorphed (transformed or what have you)?

Heres what i was thinking. Instead of playing a fighter and having to buy expensive magic items at the risk that you might never get something you want, why not have your familiar transformed into an unstopable fighting machine that you control the mind of (in a nutshell) as a wizard or socerer and utalize your "share spells" bond thing so you can cast spells like tenser's transformation on yourself (and in turn on to him) doubling his fighting potential. this way you can be alot more powerful at lower levels and spend most of your cash on weapons and upgrades. I was figuring that you could follow your familiar in the etheral plane (while hes on the material) or something or somehow live in its body doing a sybiotic thing. I am kinda against playing two charaters so this was the next best thing i could think of.

"Combat is everything...especially when its governed by little tiny plastic dice" -Me
CerberusDreaming
03-30-05, 12:59 AM A question close to my heart. I think the answer is probably no though... :weep: another way to gimp spellcasters (who needs game balance anyway :rolleyes: ). I would like to hear some rationalizations as to why a creature that starts out with 6 int can't rationally decide to learn things on its own to complement the abilities of it's master. Something beyond its just the nature of the bond between master and familiar.
BladeBoy
03-30-05, 01:01 AM No, they can't. There have been long discussions about this. Just like animal companions can't. If they're 'awaken' they can, but then they cant be animal companions, or familars.
CerberusDreaming
03-30-05, 01:12 AM What are the rules for an awakend animal companion/familiar? And what are they given in?
SnowbearK
03-30-05, 01:25 AM Only animals may be animal companions. Awaken changes this to magical beast.

Awaken only works on animals (or plants, but that's not germain to the topic at hand, really). Familiars are Magical Beasts.

Only normal, unmodified animals may become familiars. When they become a familiar, they become magical beasts.

If you absolutely need to see it in print, check the spell, AWAKEN, the druid section for ANIMAL COMPANIONS, and the Sorcerer section for FAMILIAR.
UltimateReality
03-30-05, 01:25 AM What are the rules for an awakend animal companion/familiar? And what are they given in?Once the animal is awakened it's no longer a companion or familiar. It's friendly to you, but there's no empathic link, nothing, nada. You awaken an animal or plant by using the Awaken spell, as described in the PHB.
Plastik
03-30-05, 01:41 AM Once the animal is awakened it's no longer a companion or familiar. It's friendly to you, but there's no empathic link, nothing, nada. You awaken an animal or plant by using the Awaken spell, as described in the PHB.

And if you Awaken it, then Polymorph it into a human, it would not only take fair shar of EXP, but it would want fair share of treasure too. It would be interesting for you to "create" a human life this way only for it to be overcome by greed and murder you.

EDIT: I just got and idea for a BBEG!
Nom
03-30-05, 01:41 AM I would like to hear some rationalizations as to why a creature that starts out with 6 int can't rationally decide to learn things on its own to complement the abilities of it's master.You mean in addition to the fact that it may use the HD, hp (well, half), BAB, saves, and skill ranks of the master and gains additional special abilities to boot? Considering that they are a class feature (and thus require no XP or extra feats), familiars gain more than enough abilities without further enhancing them via house rules.
Petiepablox75
03-30-05, 02:27 PM So after my dreams have been crushed by other "players?" (are there any wizards employees among you? no disrespect by the way, i like my info to be official) is there any way to to control someone with a medium to lowish level spell so you can be their brain pretty much and have like a spell link with them!
I need to think of a way to combine a fighterish class with a spellcaster class gaining all the benifits with no drawbacks (except for sharing EXP between the two "characters"), its perfectly fair as long as it follows the rules. I dont care about being unbalenced or too powerful..thats the point, buttt it has to be official. Basically two charaters controlled by one mind and housed in the same body?
Any ideas?
Thorak
03-30-05, 04:39 PM I need to think of a way to combine a fighterish class with a spellcaster class gaining all the benifits with no drawbacks (except for sharing EXP between the two "characters"),
Option A; convince your DM to play a Gestalt campaign, where everyone has 2 simultaneous classes (and then cannot multiclass or prestige class). Then, play a fighterish spellcaster. All the benefits, no drawbacks, not even sharing XP.

Option B; play two characters.

Option C; take the Leadership feat, and get a cohort. He's not mind-controlled, but he's loyal. And heck, not being mind-controlled can be a GOOD thing.

Oh, and as for "official", how's the official SRD?
"An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount."
The PHB contains the same line.

As to the greater issue; no, you can't get all the benefits of a Fighter and a Spellcaster on the same character without paying for it in some way. Stop being a raving munchkin and recognize that you don't get to be better than everyone else just because you want to be.
Rocketmonkey
03-30-05, 04:58 PM I think the in-game reason is that the same mystical link that allows the familiar to use its master's BAB, skills, share spells and so on also prevents it from being independent enough to develop its own skills and abilities (ie, gain levels in a class).

Besides, if a familiar could take levels of wizard, then get a familiar of its own, which took levels of wizard... yikes.
Petiepablox75
03-30-05, 05:44 PM well thanks for the help everyone, ill see what i can come up with. I never did say anything about the awaken spell though.

CASE CLOSED! ;)
Solais
04-05-05, 09:46 PM So a spellcaster cannot make his familier advanced (monster or characer levels) using the leadership feat. ie 18 lvl sorcerer w/ improved familier, leadership (allowing a 16 lvl cohort) have a 16HD earth elemental familier.
Gahidus
04-05-05, 10:07 PM While an awakened animal can't be a familliar, familliar's don't have to be animals. With improved Familliar outsiders and dragons can be familiars. The improved familiar/feadershp combo should work, perhaps even without improved famillair it would be balanced.
BladeBoy
04-05-05, 10:46 PM Your familiar can't be your cohort..
Uber Goblin
04-06-05, 02:53 AM Your familiar can't be your cohort..

*stamps his foot* Ya, who cares if the characters have improved familure feat that states they can take new creature types and if they take the Leadership feat and the familure is at max one level lower then the caster as in accordance with the Leadership feat or even if there is no textual evidence that states or infers that with this progression you are not able to make your familure your cohort! Bladeboy must be right!
Gemstone
04-06-05, 05:01 AM Ok here we goooo...

The question is presented; can a familiar gain levels? It doesnt say anywhere that they cant, and if they cant what if they are polymorphed (transformed or what have you)?

Heres what i was thinking. Instead of playing a fighter and having to buy expensive magic items at the risk that you might never get something you want, why not have your familiar transformed into an unstopable fighting machine that you control the mind of (in a nutshell) as a wizard or socerer and utalize your "share spells" bond thing so you can cast spells like tenser's transformation on yourself (and in turn on to him) doubling his fighting potential. this way you can be alot more powerful at lower levels and spend most of your cash on weapons and upgrades. I was figuring that you could follow your familiar in the etheral plane (while hes on the material) or something or somehow live in its body doing a sybiotic thing. I am kinda against playing two charaters so this was the next best thing i could think of.

"Combat is everything...especially when its governed by little tiny plastic dice" -Me
Mayhap possible, but as a druid who can take powerful animal companions, a familiar with class levels would reduce your effective character level when calculating its bonuses depending on your level :D
MrkGrismer
04-06-05, 04:24 PM Rules:

A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

and:

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: If the creature’s type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

A creature with class levels is a modified creature.

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.
Delfedd
04-06-05, 05:48 PM Familiars technically can gain class levels. For example, the raven familiar of the 20th level wizard who dies keeps his intelegence bonus. The freed familiar could then take its freedom and progress in any class they'd like. They don't keep HP however. If the wizard was raised again however, the familiar would be back under there control.
MrkGrismer
04-06-05, 06:04 PM For example, the raven familiar of the 20th level wizard who dies keeps his intelegence bonus.

Where do you get that from?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Petiepablox75 03-29-05, 10:49 PM	Ok here we goooo... The question is presented; can a familiar gain levels? It doesnt say anywhere that they cant, and if they cant what if they are polymorphed (transformed or what have you)? Heres what i was thinking. Instead of playing a fighter and having to buy expensive magic items at the risk that you might never get something you want, why not have your familiar transformed into an unstopable fighting machine that you control the mind of (in a nutshell) as a wizard or socerer and utalize your "share spells" bond thing so you can cast spells like tenser's transformation on yourself (and in turn on to him) doubling his fighting potential. this way you can be alot more powerful at lower levels and spend most of your cash on weapons and upgrades. I was figuring that you could follow your familiar in the etheral plane (while hes on the material) or something or somehow live in its body doing a sybiotic thing. I am kinda against playing two charaters so this was the next best thing i could think of. "Combat is everything...especially when its governed by little tiny plastic dice" -Me
CerberusDreaming 03-30-05, 12:59 AM	A question close to my heart. I think the answer is probably no though... :weep: another way to gimp spellcasters (who needs game balance anyway :rolleyes: ). I would like to hear some rationalizations as to why a creature that starts out with 6 int can't rationally decide to learn things on its own to complement the abilities of it's master. Something beyond its just the nature of the bond between master and familiar.
BladeBoy 03-30-05, 01:01 AM	No, they can't. There have been long discussions about this. Just like animal companions can't. If they're 'awaken' they can, but then they cant be animal companions, or familars.
CerberusDreaming 03-30-05, 01:12 AM	What are the rules for an awakend animal companion/familiar? And what are they given in?
SnowbearK 03-30-05, 01:25 AM	Only animals may be animal companions. Awaken changes this to magical beast. Awaken only works on animals (or plants, but that's not germain to the topic at hand, really). Familiars are Magical Beasts. Only normal, unmodified animals may become familiars. When they become a familiar, they become magical beasts. If you absolutely need to see it in print, check the spell, AWAKEN, the druid section for ANIMAL COMPANIONS, and the Sorcerer section for FAMILIAR.
UltimateReality 03-30-05, 01:25 AM	What are the rules for an awakend animal companion/familiar? And what are they given in?Once the animal is awakened it's no longer a companion or familiar. It's friendly to you, but there's no empathic link, nothing, nada. You awaken an animal or plant by using the Awaken spell, as described in the PHB.
Plastik 03-30-05, 01:41 AM	Once the animal is awakened it's no longer a companion or familiar. It's friendly to you, but there's no empathic link, nothing, nada. You awaken an animal or plant by using the Awaken spell, as described in the PHB. And if you Awaken it, then Polymorph it into a human, it would not only take fair shar of EXP, but it would want fair share of treasure too. It would be interesting for you to "create" a human life this way only for it to be overcome by greed and murder you. EDIT: I just got and idea for a BBEG!
Nom 03-30-05, 01:41 AM	I would like to hear some rationalizations as to why a creature that starts out with 6 int can't rationally decide to learn things on its own to complement the abilities of it's master.You mean in addition to the fact that it may use the HD, hp (well, half), BAB, saves, and skill ranks of the master and gains additional special abilities to boot? Considering that they are a class feature (and thus require no XP or extra feats), familiars gain more than enough abilities without further enhancing them via house rules.
Petiepablox75 03-30-05, 02:27 PM	So after my dreams have been crushed by other "players?" (are there any wizards employees among you? no disrespect by the way, i like my info to be official) is there any way to to control someone with a medium to lowish level spell so you can be their brain pretty much and have like a spell link with them! I need to think of a way to combine a fighterish class with a spellcaster class gaining all the benifits with no drawbacks (except for sharing EXP between the two "characters"), its perfectly fair as long as it follows the rules. I dont care about being unbalenced or too powerful..thats the point, buttt it has to be official. Basically two charaters controlled by one mind and housed in the same body? Any ideas?
Thorak 03-30-05, 04:39 PM	I need to think of a way to combine a fighterish class with a spellcaster class gaining all the benifits with no drawbacks (except for sharing EXP between the two "characters"), Option A; convince your DM to play a Gestalt campaign, where everyone has 2 simultaneous classes (and then cannot multiclass or prestige class). Then, play a fighterish spellcaster. All the benefits, no drawbacks, not even sharing XP. Option B; play two characters. Option C; take the Leadership feat, and get a cohort. He's not mind-controlled, but he's loyal. And heck, not being mind-controlled can be a GOOD thing. Oh, and as for "official", how's the official SRD? "An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount." The PHB contains the same line. As to the greater issue; no, you can't get all the benefits of a Fighter and a Spellcaster on the same character without paying for it in some way. Stop being a raving munchkin and recognize that you don't get to be better than everyone else just because you want to be.
Rocketmonkey 03-30-05, 04:58 PM	I think the in-game reason is that the same mystical link that allows the familiar to use its master's BAB, skills, share spells and so on also prevents it from being independent enough to develop its own skills and abilities (ie, gain levels in a class). Besides, if a familiar could take levels of wizard, then get a familiar of its own, which took levels of wizard... yikes.
Petiepablox75 03-30-05, 05:44 PM	well thanks for the help everyone, ill see what i can come up with. I never did say anything about the awaken spell though. CASE CLOSED! ;)
Solais 04-05-05, 09:46 PM	So a spellcaster cannot make his familier advanced (monster or characer levels) using the leadership feat. ie 18 lvl sorcerer w/ improved familier, leadership (allowing a 16 lvl cohort) have a 16HD earth elemental familier.
Gahidus 04-05-05, 10:07 PM	While an awakened animal can't be a familliar, familliar's don't have to be animals. With improved Familliar outsiders and dragons can be familiars. The improved familiar/feadershp combo should work, perhaps even without improved famillair it would be balanced.
BladeBoy 04-05-05, 10:46 PM	Your familiar can't be your cohort..
Uber Goblin 04-06-05, 02:53 AM	Your familiar can't be your cohort.. stamps his foot Ya, who cares if the characters have improved familure feat that states they can take new creature types and if they take the Leadership feat and the familure is at max one level lower then the caster as in accordance with the Leadership feat or even if there is no textual evidence that states or infers that with this progression you are not able to make your familure your cohort! Bladeboy must be right!
Gemstone 04-06-05, 05:01 AM	Ok here we goooo... The question is presented; can a familiar gain levels? It doesnt say anywhere that they cant, and if they cant what if they are polymorphed (transformed or what have you)? Heres what i was thinking. Instead of playing a fighter and having to buy expensive magic items at the risk that you might never get something you want, why not have your familiar transformed into an unstopable fighting machine that you control the mind of (in a nutshell) as a wizard or socerer and utalize your "share spells" bond thing so you can cast spells like tenser's transformation on yourself (and in turn on to him) doubling his fighting potential. this way you can be alot more powerful at lower levels and spend most of your cash on weapons and upgrades. I was figuring that you could follow your familiar in the etheral plane (while hes on the material) or something or somehow live in its body doing a sybiotic thing. I am kinda against playing two charaters so this was the next best thing i could think of. "Combat is everything...especially when its governed by little tiny plastic dice" -Me Mayhap possible, but as a druid who can take powerful animal companions, a familiar with class levels would reduce your effective character level when calculating its bonuses depending on your level :D
MrkGrismer 04-06-05, 04:24 PM	Rules: A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar. and: Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: If the creature’s type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate). A creature with class levels is a modified creature. Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.
Delfedd 04-06-05, 05:48 PM	Familiars technically can gain class levels. For example, the raven familiar of the 20th level wizard who dies keeps his intelegence bonus. The freed familiar could then take its freedom and progress in any class they'd like. They don't keep HP however. If the wizard was raised again however, the familiar would be back under there control.
MrkGrismer 04-06-05, 06:04 PM	For example, the raven familiar of the 20th level wizard who dies keeps his intelegence bonus. Where do you get that from?