Can a lawful character have respect for chaos [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a lawful character have respect for chaos [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
legolizard
11-21-04, 02:10 AM I play a paladin ( lawful good) of Kord (chaotic good). Im working him with the stronger emphisis of good and am wondering if i can belong to a organazation that is chaotic good with the emphasis of good and if I can respect chaotic good and chaotic neutral characters?
Nithendil
11-21-04, 05:48 AM If you're going "by the rules" you can be one step away from your alignment, or neutral good. Chaotic good is two steps. If I were DMing I'd allow it, as although you have a strict moral code, the overall objective is good.

Perhaps you can explain to me how a lawful character would repsect chaos? By definition they are fundamentally opposed. (not saying that it isn't possible, I'm just wondering how you would come to that conclusion.)
FriendoftheDork
11-21-04, 05:50 AM people are not alignments. A paladin of Kord (is that even allowed?) should respect the members of his church and it's traditions.
Nithendil
11-21-04, 06:24 AM people are not alignments.

Except for paladins, who are supposed to be the epitome of "good" and "moral code /ie law", at least the way they are presented.

A paladin worshiping Kord would be like an extreme conservative who's favorite president is a liberal. Could happen I suppose.
Falkus
11-21-04, 11:28 AM Except for paladins, who are supposed to be the epitome of "good" and "moral code /ie law", at least the way they are presented.

Actually, paladins good over law. Take a look at their code of conduct. They can comit chaotic acts, as long as there alignment remains lawful, but a single evil act causes them to lose all of their abilities.
Shard of Suzail
11-21-04, 01:03 PM I would not allow a standard paladin to follow a chaotic god. The unearthed arcana paladin of freedom is a good option.

As such, chaotic good gods let nothing get in the way of doing goodly things. A paladin is not just a servant of good but a servant of orderly society. It is true that he has some leeway in this, but a chaotic god has their chaos switch constantly set to "on".

Similarly, chaos is a real thing. If the god and its followers naturally generate an aura, say, of protection from law, then their presence actually opposes the paladin. He may well find that some areas sacred to his god actually treat him as kill on sight or that he cannot wield a magical item that is holy to his god.

The chaos and law difference is enough to keep the minions of evil in constant civil war.

As such, a chaotic god would ask some fairly ridiculous things of its paladin follower, one of which would be to abandon his lawful code, which would effectively remove his class right away, unless the paladin of freedom class was allowed instead.

Pick up a copy of unearthed arcana, its got just what is needed here.
Board_Rider
11-21-04, 01:20 PM I currently am playing a Paladin of Freedom (see sig). You should, as Shard of Suzail offered, look into that.
But I see no problem with what your character wants to do. Sure, if it was well roleplayed, the paladin probably just be irratated by the chaos around him...especially when dealing with chaotic neutral. As long as no real astrocities happen...should be OK.
As far as worshipping Kord..I don't know. Does he have Paladin followers or LG followers? But that is a call for your DM.
legolizard
11-21-04, 02:30 PM My gm wouldn't let me play a paladin of freedom, and I have the most chaotic neutral character ever to walk the earth on my team, a soul blade teifling. We found this thing thats called "the eye of chaos", it's just basically a walky talky to a outsider who answers any question you have for him the best he can, he's not even chaotic, or a god. but the teifling has decided to make it his god anyway, and thats basically all he talks about, and burnning things and wanting me to become a blackguard.
Callista
11-22-04, 03:41 PM If both the Paladin and the organization emphasize the Good part of their alignments, it can possibly work. For example, even a Lawful character can understand the Chaotic notion of the value of the individual; and while he will not believe the individual is the most important part of the picture, he believes that an ordered society is the best way to benefit the individual. Different outlooks, but the same goal: The good of the individual.

However, I would have the paladin get in trouble with his superiors once he decided to do something so Lawful that it annoyed the Chaotic organization. He may become a "lone warrior" type, a servant of ideals, rather than his church.

The Chaotic organization does, however, believe in Good at all costs--including hiring Lawful paladins. Chances are, if this is so, they allow the paladins to go about their own business with only nominal ties to the organization. A mutual, unspoken agreement to tolerate each other's methods for the greater good might be in order.

All in all, though, the DM must agree with this. In a world where Paladins are Lawful just as much as Good (neither takes precedence, or Law does), such an arrangement wouldn't work.
TommyBlack
11-22-04, 04:00 PM I agree that the Kordites might have a reason to let a paladin be part of their organization, as long as he doesn't stop by very much. The paladin would probably only last a couple levels and then realize there's something horribly corrupt about his church, and be in a moral dilemma. And moral dilemmas are the whole point of paladins.
Callista
11-22-04, 05:21 PM Corrupt?! Chaotic does not equal corrupt... A chaotic organization doesn't have to take bribes or show favoritism; in fact, those are both mildly to strongly evil actions.

I would lean more towards the paladin seeing the organization as either dishonorable or disorganized. He would want them to take stricter control of their followers, since he believes that's the best way to ensure the followers' safety and happiness.

Conflict of interest? Yes. Workable? Depends on the paladin (the Chaotic organization probably believes the Paladin is fine doing things his own way, even if they do think it's a little stuffy and limited.)

After all, even the most Lawful paladin should realize that he need not limit himself to allies which exactly share his philosophical and political viewpoint. If they are working towards the same end, cooperation will benefit both sides and strengthen the fight against evil. Besides, the paladin may see this as a chance to be an example to the good but misled Chaotic group.
Megrim_Lord
11-22-04, 08:27 PM of course a lawful character can respect chaos!

I can't think of a really good example on that axis right now, but perhaps this might explain what I mean.

an Evil character can respect a good character as well, lets look at this:

A band of good barbarians are ripping through an evil dragon's kobold minions in order to get to him. The evil character is angered that he is going to have to replace his minions and eventually face the barbarians, but as an evil character he could easily respect the ruthlessness of the barbarians and their tenacity in the attempt to slay him.

a rather subpar example: A lawful character could respect a chaotic character who maintains a well organized army or organization, and the chaotic character could respect the lawful character for his discipline, something the chaotic character coud never obtain.
Nithendil
11-22-04, 08:54 PM I tend to look at it as a paladin would be like someone who is obsessive-compulsive about cleanliness (representing the extreme side of order). Kord would be the sloppy roomate (chaos). Sure, they may be friends, and go hang out sometimes, but occasionally the sloppy roomate is going to annoy the hell out of the OCD.

Follows of Kord would use civil disobedience when necessary, not follow certain laws they don't agree with, and likely have a loose moral code. I think it would annoy the paladin too much to have Kord as his god, unless he was actively trying to change the church.
Felonious Monk
11-22-04, 09:13 PM Your general question - can a lawful character have respect for chaos - I'd have to say yes. The specific problem, though, is a bit stronger than that. It's not 'respect' we're dealing with, but 'worship'. If your DM is requiring you to be a LG Paladin of a CG god, I don't see how it's going to work.

I'm inclined to agree with the idea of paladins for specific gods, or 'champions' at the very least, and I have played in a campaign with a paladin of Kord (he even had a hymn to his god, which began, "I worship Kord/He is my lord"). Having said that, it seems that the paladin code as written is incompatible with the extra requirement, "Worship this CG god."
legolizard
11-22-04, 10:04 PM My paladin worships Kord because he is the god of bravery and strength. My paladin is the meat sheild of the party and thinks that ranged weapons (not reach) are for weaklings who dont want to mess up their peticure. He also likes to compete in sports. He's the way of the warrior type of paladin.
kliate
11-22-04, 10:21 PM I personally would be wary of allowing a Paladin of Kord, although a Paladin who revere's Kord is a different matter entirely.

I would see such a character being chastised by the priests and clerics of Kord to "lighten up" on a regular basis. It's perfectly alright to enjoy the physical challenges held by a temple of Kord. You might lose popularity for being too focused on the rules of the game, rather than enjoying yourself.
legolizard
11-22-04, 11:18 PM there is a cleric of kord in the party, but hes new to role playing so he dosen't act too chaotic. But your right about the little things. All the other kord followers would see me as the rules monger, theyd know that I was a good guy, but they probably avoid long contact with me.
legolizard
11-23-04, 12:09 AM I have another question, what can a paladin do about lawful evil tyrants. It says that a paladin must obey "ligitimate authority". If the miliatary im in (yes, all the characters are marines) orders me to do something a paladin wouldn't do, do I have to do it and if I don't, do I breack the code of conduct.
Nithendil
11-23-04, 12:37 AM Law doesn't necessarily mean laws of the land, it can indicate a strict moral code. Paladins, IMO, are more about good than law, so I would rule you do not have to follow the commander to do something against your code.
Callista
11-23-04, 05:47 AM Lawful evil tyrants can be deposed without loss of either honor or Good, though a dagger in the back in the middle of the night isn't going to be the method chosen. The laws of the land aren't the important thing for a Paladin, though he will obey them whenever possible; his own moral code and ideas of honor are.
Greyman
11-23-04, 06:23 AM I have another question, what can a paladin do about lawful evil tyrants. It says that a paladin must obey "ligitimate authority".No, the code only requires you to respect legitimate authority. As long as their is respect for the chain of command, you can still conscientiously oppose immoral orders. However, you must do so with honour, and openly accept the consequences, rather than chaotical invoking pretense and deception to undermine authority. Work within the system as best you can, or leave it.
Falkus
11-23-04, 12:04 PM If the miliatary im in (yes, all the characters are marines) orders me to do something a paladin wouldn't do, do I have to do it and if I don't, do I breack the code of conduct.

If they order you to do something unethical, they're not a legitimate authority anymore.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
legolizard 11-21-04, 02:10 AM	I play a paladin ( lawful good) of Kord (chaotic good). Im working him with the stronger emphisis of good and am wondering if i can belong to a organazation that is chaotic good with the emphasis of good and if I can respect chaotic good and chaotic neutral characters?
Nithendil 11-21-04, 05:48 AM	If you're going "by the rules" you can be one step away from your alignment, or neutral good. Chaotic good is two steps. If I were DMing I'd allow it, as although you have a strict moral code, the overall objective is good. Perhaps you can explain to me how a lawful character would repsect chaos? By definition they are fundamentally opposed. (not saying that it isn't possible, I'm just wondering how you would come to that conclusion.)
FriendoftheDork 11-21-04, 05:50 AM	people are not alignments. A paladin of Kord (is that even allowed?) should respect the members of his church and it's traditions.
Nithendil 11-21-04, 06:24 AM	people are not alignments. Except for paladins, who are supposed to be the epitome of "good" and "moral code /ie law", at least the way they are presented. A paladin worshiping Kord would be like an extreme conservative who's favorite president is a liberal. Could happen I suppose.
Falkus 11-21-04, 11:28 AM	Except for paladins, who are supposed to be the epitome of "good" and "moral code /ie law", at least the way they are presented. Actually, paladins good over law. Take a look at their code of conduct. They can comit chaotic acts, as long as there alignment remains lawful, but a single evil act causes them to lose all of their abilities.
Shard of Suzail 11-21-04, 01:03 PM	I would not allow a standard paladin to follow a chaotic god. The unearthed arcana paladin of freedom is a good option. As such, chaotic good gods let nothing get in the way of doing goodly things. A paladin is not just a servant of good but a servant of orderly society. It is true that he has some leeway in this, but a chaotic god has their chaos switch constantly set to "on". Similarly, chaos is a real thing. If the god and its followers naturally generate an aura, say, of protection from law, then their presence actually opposes the paladin. He may well find that some areas sacred to his god actually treat him as kill on sight or that he cannot wield a magical item that is holy to his god. The chaos and law difference is enough to keep the minions of evil in constant civil war. As such, a chaotic god would ask some fairly ridiculous things of its paladin follower, one of which would be to abandon his lawful code, which would effectively remove his class right away, unless the paladin of freedom class was allowed instead. Pick up a copy of unearthed arcana, its got just what is needed here.
Board_Rider 11-21-04, 01:20 PM	I currently am playing a Paladin of Freedom (see sig). You should, as Shard of Suzail offered, look into that. But I see no problem with what your character wants to do. Sure, if it was well roleplayed, the paladin probably just be irratated by the chaos around him...especially when dealing with chaotic neutral. As long as no real astrocities happen...should be OK. As far as worshipping Kord..I don't know. Does he have Paladin followers or LG followers? But that is a call for your DM.
legolizard 11-21-04, 02:30 PM	My gm wouldn't let me play a paladin of freedom, and I have the most chaotic neutral character ever to walk the earth on my team, a soul blade teifling. We found this thing thats called "the eye of chaos", it's just basically a walky talky to a outsider who answers any question you have for him the best he can, he's not even chaotic, or a god. but the teifling has decided to make it his god anyway, and thats basically all he talks about, and burnning things and wanting me to become a blackguard.
Callista 11-22-04, 03:41 PM	If both the Paladin and the organization emphasize the Good part of their alignments, it can possibly work. For example, even a Lawful character can understand the Chaotic notion of the value of the individual; and while he will not believe the individual is the most important part of the picture, he believes that an ordered society is the best way to benefit the individual. Different outlooks, but the same goal: The good of the individual. However, I would have the paladin get in trouble with his superiors once he decided to do something so Lawful that it annoyed the Chaotic organization. He may become a "lone warrior" type, a servant of ideals, rather than his church. The Chaotic organization does, however, believe in Good at all costs--including hiring Lawful paladins. Chances are, if this is so, they allow the paladins to go about their own business with only nominal ties to the organization. A mutual, unspoken agreement to tolerate each other's methods for the greater good might be in order. All in all, though, the DM must agree with this. In a world where Paladins are Lawful just as much as Good (neither takes precedence, or Law does), such an arrangement wouldn't work.
TommyBlack 11-22-04, 04:00 PM	I agree that the Kordites might have a reason to let a paladin be part of their organization, as long as he doesn't stop by very much. The paladin would probably only last a couple levels and then realize there's something horribly corrupt about his church, and be in a moral dilemma. And moral dilemmas are the whole point of paladins.
Callista 11-22-04, 05:21 PM	Corrupt?! Chaotic does not equal corrupt... A chaotic organization doesn't have to take bribes or show favoritism; in fact, those are both mildly to strongly evil actions. I would lean more towards the paladin seeing the organization as either dishonorable or disorganized. He would want them to take stricter control of their followers, since he believes that's the best way to ensure the followers' safety and happiness. Conflict of interest? Yes. Workable? Depends on the paladin (the Chaotic organization probably believes the Paladin is fine doing things his own way, even if they do think it's a little stuffy and limited.) After all, even the most Lawful paladin should realize that he need not limit himself to allies which exactly share his philosophical and political viewpoint. If they are working towards the same end, cooperation will benefit both sides and strengthen the fight against evil. Besides, the paladin may see this as a chance to be an example to the good but misled Chaotic group.
Megrim_Lord 11-22-04, 08:27 PM	of course a lawful character can respect chaos! I can't think of a really good example on that axis right now, but perhaps this might explain what I mean. an Evil character can respect a good character as well, lets look at this: A band of good barbarians are ripping through an evil dragon's kobold minions in order to get to him. The evil character is angered that he is going to have to replace his minions and eventually face the barbarians, but as an evil character he could easily respect the ruthlessness of the barbarians and their tenacity in the attempt to slay him. a rather subpar example: A lawful character could respect a chaotic character who maintains a well organized army or organization, and the chaotic character could respect the lawful character for his discipline, something the chaotic character coud never obtain.
Nithendil 11-22-04, 08:54 PM	I tend to look at it as a paladin would be like someone who is obsessive-compulsive about cleanliness (representing the extreme side of order). Kord would be the sloppy roomate (chaos). Sure, they may be friends, and go hang out sometimes, but occasionally the sloppy roomate is going to annoy the hell out of the OCD. Follows of Kord would use civil disobedience when necessary, not follow certain laws they don't agree with, and likely have a loose moral code. I think it would annoy the paladin too much to have Kord as his god, unless he was actively trying to change the church.
Felonious Monk 11-22-04, 09:13 PM	Your general question - can a lawful character have respect for chaos - I'd have to say yes. The specific problem, though, is a bit stronger than that. It's not 'respect' we're dealing with, but 'worship'. If your DM is requiring you to be a LG Paladin of a CG god, I don't see how it's going to work. I'm inclined to agree with the idea of paladins for specific gods, or 'champions' at the very least, and I have played in a campaign with a paladin of Kord (he even had a hymn to his god, which began, "I worship Kord/He is my lord"). Having said that, it seems that the paladin code as written is incompatible with the extra requirement, "Worship this CG god."
legolizard 11-22-04, 10:04 PM	My paladin worships Kord because he is the god of bravery and strength. My paladin is the meat sheild of the party and thinks that ranged weapons (not reach) are for weaklings who dont want to mess up their peticure. He also likes to compete in sports. He's the way of the warrior type of paladin.
kliate 11-22-04, 10:21 PM	I personally would be wary of allowing a Paladin of Kord, although a Paladin who revere's Kord is a different matter entirely. I would see such a character being chastised by the priests and clerics of Kord to "lighten up" on a regular basis. It's perfectly alright to enjoy the physical challenges held by a temple of Kord. You might lose popularity for being too focused on the rules of the game, rather than enjoying yourself.
legolizard 11-22-04, 11:18 PM	there is a cleric of kord in the party, but hes new to role playing so he dosen't act too chaotic. But your right about the little things. All the other kord followers would see me as the rules monger, theyd know that I was a good guy, but they probably avoid long contact with me.
legolizard 11-23-04, 12:09 AM	I have another question, what can a paladin do about lawful evil tyrants. It says that a paladin must obey "ligitimate authority". If the miliatary im in (yes, all the characters are marines) orders me to do something a paladin wouldn't do, do I have to do it and if I don't, do I breack the code of conduct.
Nithendil 11-23-04, 12:37 AM	Law doesn't necessarily mean laws of the land, it can indicate a strict moral code. Paladins, IMO, are more about good than law, so I would rule you do not have to follow the commander to do something against your code.
Callista 11-23-04, 05:47 AM	Lawful evil tyrants can be deposed without loss of either honor or Good, though a dagger in the back in the middle of the night isn't going to be the method chosen. The laws of the land aren't the important thing for a Paladin, though he will obey them whenever possible; his own moral code and ideas of honor are.
Greyman 11-23-04, 06:23 AM	I have another question, what can a paladin do about lawful evil tyrants. It says that a paladin must obey "ligitimate authority".No, the code only requires you to respect legitimate authority. As long as their is respect for the chain of command, you can still conscientiously oppose immoral orders. However, you must do so with honour, and openly accept the consequences, rather than chaotical invoking pretense and deception to undermine authority. Work within the system as best you can, or leave it.
Falkus 11-23-04, 12:04 PM	If the miliatary im in (yes, all the characters are marines) orders me to do something a paladin wouldn't do, do I have to do it and if I don't, do I breack the code of conduct. If they order you to do something unethical, they're not a legitimate authority anymore.