Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spencemeister 12-11-05, 01:27 AM	We're in the midst of a battle that we're finishing up, however there are about a dozen row boats with 20 orcs each in them headed toward shore to reinforce our foes. Each boat is about 20 feet long. Wood. Nothing special about them. My plan is to use my Summon Monstor VII scroll to summon up a Celestial Balean Whale to attack the boats. I figure if I can get the whale to breach and come down on the boats, then I could capsize them and the orcs would go into the drink and drown. My problem is I don't know what process to use. There's nothing that says that the whale can't breach. I can't find any stats on the weight or balance of row boats or what it might take to flip one over, so I'm having a difficult time making case for what kind of roll it might take to accomplish it. I've thought about bull rush, but it isn't quite right either. Any thoughts? Thanks, Spence
kuhTHOOloo 12-11-05, 01:30 AM	I'd use damage from weight falling. If they're wooden normal boats, sundering comes to mind.
Auburn 12-11-05, 02:48 AM	The whale will smash what it lands on. If it hits the boats leaving the water while it breechs that'd probably flip the boat over.
DarknessEternal 12-11-05, 04:22 AM	The process I would use is that a whale could do this once a round, assuming it's normal swim speed would get to the boat. That whale would obliterate a boat that size. I wouldn't even make attack/damage/anything else rolls.
Cymraegmorgan 12-11-05, 10:31 AM	Once upon a time, while fishing out of Portland, Oregon, a friend of mine was almost lost overboard when a whale swamped a sixty foot vessel. Any great whale can easily trash a twenty foot boat. Or several at once. Have each boat make a save versus capsize(DC 30) within 100 feet of where the whale reenters the water after making one of those magnificent leaps that you see on National Geographic specials.
Braekor Dragonfang 12-11-05, 11:23 AM	this is one of those rare instances where D&D and real world physics should be completely compatible, take advantage of it
DrWorm 12-11-05, 07:53 PM	Once upon a time, while fishing out of Portland, Oregon, a friend of mine was almost lost overboard when a whale swamped a sixty foot vessel. Any great whale can easily trash a twenty foot boat. Or several at once. Have each boat make a save versus capsize(DC 30) within 100 feet of where the whale reenters the water after making one of those magnificent leaps that you see on National Geographic specials. Uh...was there a whale in the Willamette or prehaps the Columbia? I've lived here all my live and have never heard of that. Nevermind the fact that there is no salt water for 100 miles or so. Though I agree that this would be easy for a whale to do. I would probably not require a roll at all.
^Graff_EpsilonIX 12-11-05, 07:55 PM	As previous posters have said. Drop the whale on the boat. Crunch....
CryoSilver 12-11-05, 08:38 PM	You can't summon the whale in the air... But it's pretty easy to see a whale capsizing a 20 foot rowboat. I've seen 14 and 16 foot dories (fishing rowboats) nearly capsize in 3 foot seas with 4 people in them (their rails went under, even if just barely). A whale coming up? Probably 6 to 8 foot waves easily.
Spencemeister 12-11-05, 08:51 PM	Thanks everyone. Hopefully, the DM will be a little more open-minded after seeing the overwhelming response here.
Tibs 12-11-05, 09:40 PM	Yeah, I'd figure that if a whale was intent on capsizing a 20ft. rowboat, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that he's going to be able to do it.
Feor 12-11-05, 11:54 PM	Ask if you can get a sperm whale instead of a baleen. Then see if he'll let you summon it 5km above the surface of the water. Then cast detect thoughts on it for fun. If you roll a natural 20 on anything, you should demand that a pot of petunias gets summoned beside the whale. God I'm a nerd...
Lincoln Hills 12-12-05, 01:39 PM	My problem is I don't know what process to use. There's nothing that says that the whale can't breach. I can't find any stats on the weight or balance of row boats or what it might take to flip one over, so I'm having a difficult time making case for what kind of roll it might take to accomplish it. Breaching and Crushing You will find the rules for a Crush Attack in the MM under "Dragon". Although whales do not have Jump as a class skill, they do have a Strength substantial enough to ensure quite a leap out of the water (especially since their swim speed will multiply the "high jump" distance.) The secondary effect of such an attack should be an expanding ring-shaped wake which can be simulated with the rules for a burst effect. A Profession (sailor) check must be made by the pilot of any vessel whose size category is less than that of the whale: failure indicates that the vessel has swamped and begins to sink. Larger vessels are swept with water, requiring all characters on that deck to make a Balance check (DC 10) or be knocked prone and swept along with the water (further Strength, Climb or Swim checks may be necessary as the DM rules.) Ramming from Below There are rules for vehicle ramming in the Arms and Equipment Guide and in Stormwrack: if neither is available, the whale can use a charge action on the boat (which will generally have AC 3 for being a Huge target with 0 Dexterity, hardness 5 for being made of wood, and - if I recall correctly - 10 hp per inch of thickness. Small boats have as thin a hull as is safe at sea, so 1 inch seems about right.) The whale suffers half of the damage rolled. Balance checks (similar to those for a "wake circle") should be required from the crew. If the whale misses on an attack from below, its sudden surfacing draws attacks of opportunity but should also require a Profession (sailor) check from the pilot to avoid capsizing (as with the "wake circle").
WhiteRaven810 12-12-05, 03:14 PM	We're in the midst of a battle that we're finishing up, however there are about a dozen row boats with 20 orcs each in them headed toward shore to reinforce our foes. Each boat is about 20 feet long. Wood. Nothing special about them. My plan is to use my Summon Monstor VII scroll to summon up a Celestial Balean Whale to attack the boats. I figure if I can get the whale to breach and come down on the boats, then I could capsize them and the orcs would go into the drink and drown. My problem is I don't know what process to use. There's nothing that says that the whale can't breach. I can't find any stats on the weight or balance of row boats or what it might take to flip one over, so I'm having a difficult time making case for what kind of roll it might take to accomplish it. I've thought about bull rush, but it isn't quite right either. Any thoughts? Thanks, Spence Although I don't have any advice (Lincoln Hill's sounded intelligent), I gotta compliment your Dungeon Master on the scenario, as well as yourself for such a genius way of over coming the impending attack. The advice I do have, if you have another Summon Monster Scroll (or a Druid with a few spell slots left over), gather yourself a few sharks or a giant octopus to finish the job.
SnowbearK 12-13-05, 12:34 AM	It's already been said, but I'll add my two cents: I don't care what the skill of the sailor is, a 20ft rowboat that is rammed by a whale, or landed on by one breaching, is going to be utterly destroyed. Unless it's made of adamantite, in which case it becomes bent, everyone dies from the combination of crushing damage and, unless they can breathe underwater, drowning because they're pinned inside the boat. If they can breathe underwater, they still die from crushing damage. Win win. :D Baleen whales have been known to capsize with great ease fully-seaworthy vessels 3 times the size of these little wooden rowboats. And those were relatively modern ships as well, with all the nifty engineering that entails. No, you don't get full XP. You do get some bonus XP for being quite clever, but really, it wasn't much of a challenge.