Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hell_Gell 06-11-06, 10:01 PM	Hi everyone, umm I had an odd thought today when I was selecting spells for my character. Mage Hand, and lift up to 5lbs. right, so what if u levatated a 5lb. rock over someones head. Therefor it can do damage. anyone else think of that? But heres my question, how much damage would it do? thanks :tiphat: ~Hell_Gell~
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-11-06, 10:14 PM	According to Falling Objects in the DMG (page 303), a 5 lb object does 1d6 damage for each 70' it falls, up to a maximum of 20d6. Considering Mage Hand has a range of 75' when cast at 20th level, it's not really worth it. Now, if you wanted to use the spell to drop a lit match on somebody who was doused in flammable oil, on the other hand, that might be pretty cool. :mage:
ressurrector 06-11-06, 10:39 PM	Just to tell ya, if you tried to lift a 5lb rock with magehand, it wouldn't move up with any sort of speed. 5lb of "weight" means that something is constantly under a force of gravity of 5lb. 5lb down, and 5lb up, means it weighs nothing, but it still needs more force to accelerate it upwards. I suppose you could take a 1lb rock up to 75 feet, if you wanted to manage it in a single round and not a few minutes.
Neratos 06-11-06, 11:51 PM	Just to tell ya, if you tried to lift a 5lb rock with magehand, it wouldn't move up with any sort of speed. 5lb of "weight" means that something is constantly under a force of gravity of 5lb. 5lb down, and 5lb up, means it weighs nothing, but it still needs more force to accelerate it upwards. I suppose you could take a 1lb rock up to 75 feet, if you wanted to manage it in a single round and not a few minutes. I think you are applying physics a bit much to it. By 5lbs i believe it has the capacity to lif/manipulate objects up to that weight. As in it is just strong enough to lift a 5lb weight or lower, like a hand could. And since it states it can lift it, then it can move anything up to 5lbs in any direction the character wishes.. How much movement it can cover in a round though, i don't know. Personally as a DM i would say you could do a ranged attack with at a +0 attack doing 1d6 dmg. It certainly would not result in anything game breaking, more along the lines of amusing. Now if you carried around spoiled eggs to use as ammo for it, then i would quite amused lol.
ressurrector 06-12-06, 02:49 AM	Well, 5lb is actually a measure of force. the mass of the object would be 5 Sluggs in the American (English) measurment system. All 5lb of force does is reduce the downward acceleration to 0. There is no leftover force to give the rock upwards acceleration unless the rock weighs less than 5lbs. And yes, I am an Engineer, and I know far too much about physics, but the point stands. As far as the spoiled eggs, I believe scatterspray is a tad more appropriate. (1d8 lethal or subdual, depending on objects, as a collection of objects explode outwards in a radius) magical stink bomb anyone?
Another Gnome 06-12-06, 03:11 AM	What are you talking about? :confused: The spell supports an object weighing up to 5 lb. In addition, it allows for moving said object 15 feet in any direction as a move action for as long as the caster concentrates on it and the object remains withing range of the caster. There is no given limit on how much force the spell actually applies to propel the object, save that it can't exceed the minimum required to achieve constant upward velocity of about 7 mph for 3 seconds, in a gravitational field roughly equal to Earth.
Zaku 06-12-06, 04:57 AM	I'm not so sure with this one. I myself attempted to use a dagger with mage hand and stab someone. Could someone advise me on this?
Cifer 06-12-06, 08:04 AM	I'm not so sure with this one. I myself attempted to use a dagger with mage hand and stab someone. Could someone advise me on this? If that someone is helpless, you probably can do it. Otherwise, 15 feet per round would be nowhere near the speed a knifefighter uses for stabbing someone.
Azezel 06-12-06, 08:22 AM	As much as I like the idea of aplying actual physics to this (or any other spell) I don't think it's acutally warented. Id est, Mage had can manipulate an object weighing five pounds. Weight, not mass. Five pounds, not five slugs or 2.2 kilos. If Gravity on your world is sufficiantly different you could Mage Hand a battleship. This five pound (or less) object can be moved up to fifteen feet as a move action. This is about 5 f/s. No Acceleration is mentioned, but I cannot imagine that it is more than about 1.5m/s/s (Anybody know how to do superscript in these forums?). Oh, and Ressurrector gets five Azezel points for being the last person on Earth to use the slug in a (semi)serrious context.
Pangeon 06-12-06, 02:03 PM	Thought just occured to me. In a plane with no gravity (and thusly no weight,) you could theoretically move anything with a Mage Hand spell. (Say that Battleship. :D ) Also, if you had multiple casters, all casting mage hand, you could move things at a pretty good clip (15 ft/round per Mage Hand.) Just think... I've known people to use Mage Hands as a delivering device for flasks of Alchemist's Fire strapped to small bombs. Boom! :)
Pegasos989 06-12-06, 03:15 PM	Sure, the spell can be used for attacking with weapons. Just the restrictions: -nothing over 5lbs. No greataxe for you. -No BAB -STR 1 (-4 penalty) -It is left to interpration if the mage hand is profient with the same weapons as Wiz. So the best situation: -4 to attack (+0 bab, -4 STR), 1d4-4 DMG. The worst: -8 to attack (+0 BAB, -4 STR, -4 Non profiency)), 1d4-4 DMG Is this seriously something you WANT to use? :D
Azezel 06-12-06, 04:08 PM	Thought just occured to me. In a plane with no gravity (and thusly no weight,) you could theoretically move anything with a Mage Hand spell. (Say that Battleship. :D ) Also, if you had multiple casters, all casting mage hand, you could move things at a pretty good clip (15 ft/round per Mage Hand.) Just think... As a DM I would indeed allow a player to Mage Hand a battleship - or any other object in a plane with no gravity (Note for Spelljammers - in space, there is gravity, and thus weight). However - multiple casters could not, in my game, increase the acceleration or range of movement.
Thiez 06-12-06, 04:38 PM	"Id est, Mage had can manipulate an object weighing five pounds. Weight, not mass. Five pounds, not five slugs or 2.2 kilos." It just occured to me: If kilos describe mass, not weight, then what unit do we europeans use to describe weight? Weight was in newton, right? But pounds are mass, just like kilos, right? Huh? :confused:
Eladimir 06-12-06, 05:39 PM	As a general rule where I play is that a lvl 0 spell just can be useful. Anytime we propose using little lvl 0 spells to give us an advantage we get ruled down on the fact that as a lvl 0 spell it should really do anything Power lvl of a cantrip
Magitek 06-12-06, 06:06 PM	Weight was in newton, right? But pounds are mass, just like kilos, right? Weight is actually the force the object puts on whatever is trying to hold it up. Newtons (metric) and pounds (english) are units used to measure weight. Newtons are used to measure force in the metric system. Grams (including kilograms) are a measure of mass (how much matter is in the object) in the metric system. I don't know if there is a seperate unit for mass in the english system. As for relevancy to the spell, I am trying to clarify the units to people who don't know them. In my opinion, any limits on a spell that uses pounds is meaning how much force is needed to move it. Since Mage Hand can lift a 5 pound object, it can provide a little more than 5 pounds of force. Even in a weightless environment, force is still required to move (or stop) an object. So that boulder or battleship getting moved by Mage Hand is out of the question, unless you continued the spell constantly for a very very long time.
Pegasos989 06-12-06, 06:18 PM	As a general rule where I play is that a lvl 0 spell just can be useful. Anytime we propose using little lvl 0 spells to give us an advantage we get ruled down on the fact that as a lvl 0 spell it should really do anything Power lvl of a cantrip Detect magic and read magic are possibly the best spells in the game. :)
ImmortalBlueMage 06-12-06, 10:20 PM	You know I've had to answer this question for every Wizard in every campaign I've ever DMed. It gets very old. When considering this issue, I go the shelf, take out one of my old physics textbooks, study up as much as I can on gravity and the rules of falling objects, then I throw the whole stupid thing in the trash and decide based on the rules in the DM's Guide.
Azezel 06-13-06, 12:34 AM	In Europe they typically use kilos as a measure of weight - because, so far as most people are concerned the kilo is a easure of weight. It's not acurate, but that's life... Here in Britain (which is not part of Europe) we mostly use pounds, but due to legal rubish, have to buy things by the kilogram. As for Mage hand, it is magic. MAGIC Whe it says five pounds, it means five pounds. It does not excert a little over five pounds of force - it exerts exactly as much (or as little) force as is necassery to move the object the given distance in the given time (15 feet in three seconds or so) - no matter the mass of the object. OR, that's how it works in my game. I like to have a few loopholes for clever players. If my players do ever end up on a gravityless plane and the Wizard wants to clobber something with a mountain then I'll let him - I'll probably give him 1% bonus xp for being clever. Magic and physics are both fun - but never the twain should meet. So, OP, yes, yes Mage Hand can deal damage (Even in the RAW) but you've got to put some thought into it. (Sorry for hijacking the thread)
Tharivol 06-13-06, 01:36 AM	Well, 5lb is actually a measure of force. the mass of the object would be 5 Sluggs in the American (English) measurment system. All 5lb of force does is reduce the downward acceleration to 0. There is no leftover force to give the rock upwards acceleration unless the rock weighs less than 5lbs. And yes, I am an Engineer, and I know far too much about physics, but the point stands. Sorry, but no, no it doesn't. Not at all. You're right, of course, that 5 lb is a measure of force. I don't see how that's remotely relevant. The spell does not say "exerts a force of 5 lb" it says that it targets an object weighing up to 5 lb and that it lifts and propels that object.
Pangeon 06-13-06, 02:54 AM	As a DM I would indeed allow a player to Mage Hand a battleship - or any other object in a plane with no gravity (Note for Spelljammers - in space, there is gravity, and thus weight). However - multiple casters could not, in my game, increase the acceleration or range of movement. That's fair. I really want to play a plane-hopping campaign now. :)
ressurrector 06-13-06, 03:02 AM	"Id est, Mage had can manipulate an object weighing five pounds. Weight, not mass. Five pounds, not five slugs or 2.2 kilos." It just occured to me: If kilos describe mass, not weight, then what unit do we europeans use to describe weight? Weight was in newton, right? But pounds are mass, just like kilos, right? Huh? :confused: The unit of mass in the English system (as used by America) is the Slugg, however everyone uses pounds, since as long as you are on earth, they are the same numerical value. Pounds are a measure of force, and are therefore dependant on gravity for measuring the "weight" of an object. This is why things are sometimes described in pounds of force/thrust, but never in kilograms of force/thrust. Sorry, but no, no it doesn't. Not at all. You're right, of course, that 5 lb is a measure of force. I don't see how that's remotely relevant. The spell does not say "exerts a force of 5 lb" it says that it targets an object weighing up to 5 lb and that it lifts and propels that object. It's relevant because pounds are not a measure of mass in any way. It is relevant because of the equation relating Mass, Force, and Acceleration. Force=Mass x Acceleration. In this case, we have: 5lb up(positive)+5lb down(negative, weight of rock)=Mass X Acceleration so 5lb - 5lb(opposite directions)=0=Mass x Acceleration. It is quite clear in this equation that if the object has any mass, there is no acceleration unless imparted by a third force. This is a basic application of physics.
Throg 06-13-06, 03:37 AM	The unit of mass in the English system (as used by America) is the Slugg, however everyone uses pounds, since as long as you are on earth, they are the same numerical value. Pounds are a measure of force, and are therefore dependant on gravity for measuring the "weight" of an object. This is why things are sometimes described in pounds of force/thrust, but never in kilograms of force/thrust. It's relevant because pounds are not a measure of mass in any way. It is relevant because of the equation relating Mass, Force, and Acceleration. Force=Mass x Acceleration. In this case, we have: 5lb up(positive)+5lb down(negative, weight of rock)=Mass X Acceleration so 5lb - 5lb(opposite directions)=0=Mass x Acceleration. It is quite clear in this equation that if the object has any mass, there is no acceleration unless imparted by a third force. This is a basic application of physics. This is all fine and dandy, but you aren't looking at the spell Target: One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb. You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range. It's clear as day that it effects up to a 5 pound object. Then, that object is moved. It doesn't say anywhere how much FORCE is applyed to the object, just says it will move any object that weighs up to 5 pounds. From this we can only conclude that there is enough force there to move the object far enough as the spell states, no more then that, no matter what weight the object actually is. No where in the spell description does it say it applys a 5 pound force. I'm afraid you are wrong.
somethings90 06-13-06, 01:53 PM	Sure, the spell can be used for attacking with weapons. Just the restrictions: -nothing over 5lbs. No greataxe for you. -No BAB -STR 1 (-4 penalty) -It is left to interpration if the mage hand is profient with the same weapons as Wiz. So the best situation: -4 to attack (+0 bab, -4 STR), 1d4-4 DMG. The worst: -8 to attack (+0 BAB, -4 STR, -4 Non profiency)), 1d4-4 DMG Is this seriously something you WANT to use? :D I agree
lukelightning 06-13-06, 02:52 PM	Sure. There you are, in the tavern, and your stupid elfy paladin compatriot is at the bar going "blah blah blah goodness blah blah blah law." And then you notice that right next to him is Gorecrush the Barbarian. So it's simple...you use mage hand to spill Gorecrush's drink; he'll assume the stupid elf did it and then hilarity will ensue.
Millennium 06-13-06, 04:37 PM	Another way to interpret this is that mage hand just throws physics completely out the window. Rather than moving an object by applying force, it just somehow causes the object to change its position. Aside from this, it applies no force to the object at all, and so a dagger wielded with mage hand could not cut anything; it would simply halt when it made contact with the object. However, interpretations of force aside, there's another problem with using mage hand to wield a dagger: it's way too slow. 15 feet per round is 2.5 feet per second, which about the pace of a slow walk. That's just not fast enough to fight effectively if your opponent is aware of you: evading something that slow is trivial. You might argue that it could attack an unaware opponent, though.
Bane 06-13-06, 06:00 PM	If physics mattered for Mage hand, then couldn't you just kill people by accelerating a grain of salt to truly incredible speeds? If you can move 5 lbs. of salt 30' in a round (15' per move action), shouldn't 1 lb. of salt move 150' per round? And 1 grain would probably be nearing relativistic speeds (can I get data from someone regarding number of grains of salt in a pound?) I'm imagining a salt based rail gun, and I'm not enjoying the thought.
BruisedOoze 06-13-06, 07:30 PM	In regards to mass and weight, it doesn't help that, at least here in Canada, when you go to the grocery store you find "weights" listed in lbs (a weight but not metric) and kilograms (metric but not weight). I'm not sure how that came about exactly but it is certainly a source of confusion. I know a few Europeans who were confused by this who actually receive goods in Newtons. Not sure how many European countries do this though.
BruisedOoze 06-13-06, 07:49 PM	If physics mattered for Mage hand, then couldn't you just kill people by accelerating a grain of salt to truly incredible speeds? If you can move 5 lbs. of salt 30' in a round (15' per move action), shouldn't 1 lb. of salt move 150' per round? And 1 grain would probably be nearing relativistic speeds (can I get data from someone regarding number of grains of salt in a pound?) I'm imagining a salt based rail gun, and I'm not enjoying the thought. Well, depending on design, you could mage hand this grain of salt at an acceleration on the order of 3*10^6 m/s^2 if the hand does apply 5lbs of force (which it doesn't given the spell description. It would exceed or be less depending on the circumstances). Throwing over an extent of ~5 metres ad hoccing the mage hand distance limit. We could impose a time constraint on it instead which would produce much higher values ie 1 second you would see 3*10^6m/s. However that hand would be throwing for about 1.5*10^6 meters or rather a thousand miles. 5 metres would produce a velocity of about 4000m/s. Far from 3*10^8m/s.
Soel Griffin 06-13-06, 08:43 PM	Im one of my adventures, a pc used Mage Hand to lift a burning stick from a fire and manuver it directly under a standing opponent and between its legs. OUCH!
Hariman 06-13-06, 10:14 PM	The spell "Greater Mage Hand" from the Spell Compendium would be much better for an "Attack with Mage Hand" tactic. 40 pounds of weight and medium range are much more effective. The only flaw is that you have to concentrate to move the item, thus negating your spellcasting ability. Use Telekinesis instead. Mage Hand (Even Greater Mage Hand) is for too situational to be consistently useful.
Bane 06-13-06, 11:05 PM	Well, depending on design, you could mage hand this grain of salt at an acceleration on the order of 3*10^6 m/s^2 if the hand does apply 5lbs of force (which it doesn't given the spell description. It would exceed or be less depending on the circumstances). Throwing over an extent of ~5 metres ad hoccing the mage hand distance limit. We could impose a time constraint on it instead which would produce much higher values ie 1 second you would see 3*10^6m/s. However that hand would be throwing for about 1.5*10^6 meters or rather a thousand miles. 5 metres would produce a velocity of about 4000m/s. Far from 3*10^8m/s. 4 km/s is still an impressive velocity, and would certainly tear through flesh. The most reliable rail gun we have shoots about that fast.
Far_Traveler 06-14-06, 03:44 AM	Sure, the spell can be used for attacking with weapons. Just the restrictions: -nothing over 5lbs. No greataxe for you. -No BAB -STR 1 (-4 penalty) -It is left to interpration if the mage hand is profient with the same weapons as Wiz. So the best situation: -4 to attack (+0 bab, -4 STR), 1d4-4 DMG. The worst: -8 to attack (+0 BAB, -4 STR, -4 Non profiency)), 1d4-4 DMG Is this seriously something you WANT to use? :D Silly person! Str: 1 is a -5 penalty, not -4!
tharivol266 06-14-06, 11:00 AM	barring like the firey stick or like pulling the pin on a grenade or something like that id say the only way id let mage hand do damage is through oh say a 100 on a d20 or something(okay maybe on d100 if i liked the group) and then it would deal 1 point subdual by way of a nasty purple nurple.
Missing Minds 06-14-06, 02:39 PM	Well, 5lb is actually a measure of force. the mass of the object would be 5 Sluggs in the American (English) measurment system. All 5lb of force does is reduce the downward acceleration to 0. There is no leftover force to give the rock upwards acceleration unless the rock weighs less than 5lbs. And yes, I am an Engineer, and I know far too much about physics, but the point stands. Incorrect. The spell would add X lbs of force in ADDITION to the normal forces already acting upon the object. I say X because the force value would vary such to allow all object of 11.023 kg or less to have the same movement rate. (Movement rate because once an object is moving at a constant speed, it has an acceleration of 0.) Assuming only a vertical direction (just to make it simple). The way you are taking the spell, it replaces an objects normal force with a force in the opposite direction of gravity in the value of 5 lbs. The spell is cast upon the book. Suddenly my 11.023 kg (5 lb) book now weighs only 0 lbs. Now this would be great for air hocky but obviously the spell means for the book to actually be lifted into the air. Just remember it is MAGIC. It is supposed to BREAK what we call the laws of physics.
The man they call Boxhead 06-14-06, 03:01 PM	Really, all physics aside, the fact of the matter is that you can move the rock 15 feet per round, the spell's range hits 75' at level 20 and the spell moves a 5 pound object. As was already pointed out, you could drop a 5 lb rock from 75' and it will do 1D6 damage, it takes 5 rounds to get it up there and you need to be 20th level. So yes, Elminster can waste plenty of time to do damage with mage hand.