Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salla 11-03-06, 01:14 AM	Okay ... here's what got introduced as a PC in the last game. I didn't actually SEE the sheet, but if anybody out there can figure out how this can possibly be a legal build, you'll win my eternal appreciation. Here's what I've gathered. 1. LOOKS like it should be a half-dragon. I heard the phrase 'Chaos Dragon' bandied about once or twice, and when it used its breath weapon (another indication of half-dragonry), it was apparently a random energy type. 2. Has a ridiculous strength (Either 22 or 24), and apparently has no Level Adjustment (loss of Hit Dice) since there was a wry snicker of superiority when our fighter mentioned his HP total, indicating that the creature surpassed it ... this also indicates a Con bonus, though either or both bonuses could be item Enhancement bonuses. 3. Has healing abilities of indeterminate origin (race/class). The character sheet was the Favored Soul sheet, but it may have simply been what was available at the time rather than actually indicating the class, as evidenced by ... 4. Two attacks per round at 6th level, indicating a 1:1 Base Attack Bonus progression a la Fighter. The character didn't two-weapon fight or have a bow, so she isn't a Ranger ... this more or less leaves Paladin, which judging from actions and attitudes regarding various goings-on, either she isn't one or the DM is letting her be VERY loose with the idea of honor. The only weapon used was a Scimitar. 5. Races of the Dragon was consulted at least once (a book I don't own), so I can't peruse that to see what's in it. Can *anybody* figure out how in Dolurrh this can be legal?
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 01:25 AM	I have a houserule for these situations: As long as I haven't seen your sheet, your character is a 1st-level kobold commoner with a base 8 in each ability. No other build is legal unless I see the character sheet. EDIT: The character is a chaos half-dragon (Draconomicon), and likely a barbarian (lots of hit points). If he's the same level as the other characters, then no, it's not legal. And I have no idea where the healing ability could come from.
Always-Late 11-03-06, 01:39 AM	Dragon Shaman, Scimitar of Speed. Dragon Shaman will give him d10 hit die. May have unbalanced rolls, an 18 in Str and Con and everything else can be crap, as Dragon Shaman doesn't really care about it's other stats besides a half-way decent Cha. 4d6 breath weapon at level 6, Chaos Dragon may be houseruled in; I don't think it matters so long as the weapon is random. Healing abilities come standard; 2*Cha bonus * Level per day. Has 3/4 Base Attack progression, but a weapon of speed can give him the extra attack.
wizarddog 11-03-06, 01:41 AM	Is it possible the class is a dragon Shaman (PHB2)? I belive they have fighter progression and some healing abilities-though if it's a true half dragon (D12 HD) that might be kind of redundant. wizarddog
X-Codes 11-03-06, 01:41 AM	Thats probably an Orc Dragonborn Paladin (possibly the Paladin of Freedom variant in UA). They're pretty awesome, but nothing game-breaking. While he's a fiend in combat, he's probably pretty crappy at social situations. How sure are you of his ability scores? Any chance he has only an 18 or 20 for Strength? Also, how do you roll stats? EDIT: The OP said this was a level 6 game. X of speed is highly unlikely unless favortism is involved and Dragon Shamans don't get touch of vitality until level 8. They actually don't even get MWP or full BAB. Plus, the breath weapon can apparently be of more than one energy type, which Dragon Shamans don't get (they have to pick one).
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 01:44 AM	Dragon Shaman, Scimitar of Speed. Forgot about the dragon shaman's breath weapon. Dragon shaman would also explain the healing ability. But a scimitar of speed at 6th level? A 6th-level character shouldn't be able to afford one.
Salla 11-03-06, 02:01 AM	Forgot about the dragon shaman's breath weapon. Dragon shaman would also explain the healing ability. But a scimitar of speed at 6th level? A 6th-level character shouldn't be able to afford one. Re: Your first post: I'm a player, not the DM. My 'The DM's new girlfriend is either cheating or he's playing favorites' sense is going off, however. RE: Dragon Shaman theory They don't get healing powers 'til 7th level, IIRC. RE: Scimitar of Speed Actually, she has Desert Wind (the Legacy Weapon) in its 'dormant' state; standard +1 Scimitar. Additional point, I mentioned something about the steep Level Adjustment at one point, and he said that he tried to talk her out of it, which DOES indicate half-dragonry, and I strongly suspect that one or both of them know they're cheating/screwing up, since her character sheet was face-down all game. I'm going to bring this up, and if it's not fixed, I'm walkin'. I don't play favorites with my wife when I GM for her (and vice versa ... if anything, we're a little rougher on one another in ensuring we avoid favoritism), this is just BS. In My Not So Humble Opinion.
Always-Late 11-03-06, 02:27 AM	Re: Your first post: I'm a player, not the DM. My 'The DM's new girlfriend is either cheating or he's playing favorites' sense is going off, however. RE: Dragon Shaman theory They don't get healing powers 'til 7th level, IIRC.Sorry, it's when they hit 6th, just right for your campaign.
Tyraxus 11-03-06, 03:27 AM	I'm thinking Dragon Shaman, with Chaos Dragon as the Totem Dragon. That fits everything except the two attacks per round. I agree with you, if they aren't willing to pony up the char sheet or at least explain what's going on, then I personally would find a new group to game with.
Ashheart 11-03-06, 08:43 AM	Listen, I understand that you may think that your DM or his girlfriend (not a good idea,I can say from experience) are not playing bye the book,but I have to say: Your a player yourself...and that means 2 things. 1)Your not in charge, you can NOT do anything about it. Your DM may have asked his girlfriend to play as a plot twist are for RPing a chracter that he does not want to use as a NPC. Try to go with it, thats my advice and if you really think their intentionelly cheating (even a DM can cheat) then think of this: 2) Your a player.....are you really going to tell us that you have never-ever-even-once broken the rules, strected them untill they nearly broke or "forgot" to tell the other players or even the DM something that they should have known.... The rules are (in the immortal words of some great pirate) "more like guidelines". They should be followed but can be broken with the DM's concent or without his knowledge. This may seem "evil" to you at first but I beleive that if its good for the game (and when I say game I mean RP) its ok to break the rules in character builds, spell uses, feats, skills, or anything else you can think of. What cooler than having this ultra-broke character but still getting good roleplay out of it. I DM about half of the time in my group and when I do my only rule is: if its RP it goes (no matter what the books say)
starfire311 11-03-06, 09:00 AM	Re: Your first post: I'm a player, not the DM. My 'The DM's new girlfriend is either cheating or he's playing favorites' sense is going off, however. here's your problem I'm going to bring this up, and if it's not fixed, I'm walkin'. I don't play favorites with my wife when I GM for her (and vice versa ... if anything, we're a little rougher on one another in ensuring we avoid favoritism), this is just BS. . here's your solution
Matthew77 11-03-06, 10:59 AM	Can't you just ask the character in game where all her powers are coming from? Player 1: Hi, I'm Bob, and I'm looking for adventure. Player 2: Hi Bob, come join me in my quest. Encounter with Goblins Player 2: Wow, Bob! How did you breathe lightning on all those little guys? Was it a spell? Do you have Draconic heritage? Bob heals himself Player 2: Hey Bob, are you a paladin? Those are the only guys I've ever seen heal by laying on hands like that. Can you heal me too? How often per day can you heal wounds like that? Later around the campfire Player 2: Do have any other abilities I should know about Bob? We could plan out some tactics for the next time we get attacked. If I'm going to trust my life to someone journeying with me, I'm going to be very inquisitive about their powers and abilities.
darkdragonk 11-03-06, 01:14 PM	Im not completely sure about the healing but a kobold or other dragon blood charecter can take several feats that are in races of the dragon that would give it dragon like powers plus a kobold fighter taking substatution levels gains str and i think a con bonus which would explain the full bab:teach:
Salla 11-03-06, 01:52 PM	Listen, I understand that you may think that your DM or his girlfriend (not a good idea,I can say from experience) are not playing bye the book,but I have to say: Your a player yourself...and that means 2 things. 1)Your not in charge, you can NOT do anything about it. Your DM may have asked his girlfriend to play as a plot twist are for RPing a chracter that he does not want to use as a NPC. Try to go with it, thats my advice and if you really think their intentionelly cheating (even a DM can cheat) then think of this: 2) Your a player.....are you really going to tell us that you have never-ever-even-once broken the rules, strected them untill they nearly broke or "forgot" to tell the other players or even the DM something that they should have known.... Actually, no, I haven't, at least not since I got out of high school (hey, we're all munchkins in high school). I'm usually the one who reminds the other players (and DMs) of misremembered rules, AoOs and the like. I do not cheat, because there's no point in cheating in a game without a defined win condition beyond 'have fun'. And I can do something about it ... tell him to be fair or I walk. It'll get a bit messy since we do a DM rotation where just about everybody runs for everybody else, but hey. And yes, DMs can cheat. DMs are not always right (see sig). The most important thing a DM can do, IMHO, is be fair and consistent. If player 1 can't do something (take a feat or class for which he is otherwise qualified, for instance), then neither can players 2-5, even if it would be 'cool' (a subjective term if ever there was one). The rules are (in the immortal words of some great pirate) "more like guidelines". They should be followed but can be broken with the DM's concent or without his knowledge. The rules cannot be broken without the DMs knowledge, because he sets the rules. The only downside is that some DMs set stupid rules. IMHO, Rule 0 should only be used for odd corner-cases that the books don't cover; everything else should be by the book, or covered by house rules that are fully explained BEFORE the characters are created. If everybody isn't following the same rules, then we aren't playing the same game, and confusion (which generally isn't fun) is the result. This may seem "evil" to you at first but I beleive that if its good for the game (and when I say game I mean RP) its ok to break the rules in character builds, spell uses, feats, skills, or anything else you can think of. I think of it more as 'unfair' than 'evil', per se. It's arbitrary and showing favoritism if one player can get away with more than another simply because something is 'cool'. What cooler than having this ultra-broke character but still getting good roleplay out of it. I DM about half of the time in my group and when I do my only rule is: if its RP it goes (no matter what the books say) Well, all I can say to that is ... I wouldn't play in your game. Far too unstructured for my sensibilities. :)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-03-06, 01:53 PM	Dragon shaman explains everything except the second attack, and i think I can do that with feats. But first dragon shaman Gives a breat weapon (3d6), and touch vitality at 6th level. So theres your breath weapon and healing. Also she could be using the Draconic aura of Vigor witch would give her, and allies within 30ft, fast healing 2. Now for the two attacks with a +1 simitar. She has a base attack bonus of +4, and a strength modifier of +6 or +7. Assuming she took TWF, and weapon focus scimitar she would have attacks take looked like so: Primary +8 or +9 dealing a d6 +7 or + 8, and a secondary that was similiar only that it delt half as much strength damage. This assumes at least a second scimitar of at least master work quality. A accounts for a -4 penalty to each attack, becuase the scimitar is not a light weapon. However many poeple mistake it for one, so she may be using it as a light weapon. Its a common mistake, i see it all the time. As for the strength, well a 6th level character has 13,000gp to start with according to the table in the DMG. Her +1 scimitar is worth 8,356 and guantlets of orger power are 4,000. That puts her at 12,356, leaving 644 for armour and a master work scimitar. Then all she would have to do is play a race that has a strength bonus. Lets say orc. assuming she started with an 18 strength, +4 for being an Orc, and +2 guantlets, that would give her a Strength of 24. Lets say she put her ability point for 4th level in stregnth as well. Thats a 25. She could also use the draconic aura power witch would add +2 to her damge, and make it seem like she had a higher strength. As for the Hit points, well assuming a decent con, we'll say 16. And the Dragon shamnes d10 hit dia. Her average amount of hit points should be 55.5. (assumes first Hit dia is maxed) Good rolling on her part/bad rolling on the fighters part, could account for the rest of the hit point difference. While we're at it lets assume 32 point by, 6th levl orc. Str 18 +4 22 16 Dex 14 +1 abilty score 6 Con 14 6 Int 8 -2 6 0 Wis 8 -2 6 0 Cha 12 -2 10 4 ------------------------ Tptal points used 32 Feats: Improved toughness CW, weapon focus semitar, TWF Abilities: draconic arua +2, breath wepaon 3d6, Touch of vitality, Skill focus, Draconic adaption, Draconic auras: Power, Vigor, Touchness, resistance HP: 55 (assumes average, rounded down.) ac: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 armour) Touch AC 12, flat footed 14. attacks: +1 Scimitar +8 d6+7 (+9 with vigor) crit 18-20/X2 Master work scemitar + 8 d6+3 (+5 with vigor) crit 18-20/X2 Gear: +1 scimitar 8,356, masterwork scimiatr 356, Mithral chain shirt 1,100gp 3,188gp left over. This does not show favouritism, nor does it voilate the RAW, and accounts for everything in your post. It is but one of many ways to explain what she has. Perhaps instead of assuming favouritism, and whatever else, you could calm down, pull your head out of your ass, and think about things logically. And maybe she just doesn't you to see her character, becuase shes afriad you'l meta game/ be an ass about it. Kinda like you are being now.
Salla 11-03-06, 01:54 PM	Can't you just ask the character in game where all her powers are coming from? Player 1: Hi, I'm Bob, and I'm looking for adventure. Player 2: Hi Bob, come join me in my quest. Encounter with Goblins Player 2: Wow, Bob! How did you breathe lightning on all those little guys? Was it a spell? Do you have Draconic heritage? Bob heals himself Player 2: Hey Bob, are you a paladin? Those are the only guys I've ever seen heal by laying on hands like that. Can you heal me too? How often per day can you heal wounds like that? Later around the campfire Player 2: Do have any other abilities I should know about Bob? We could plan out some tactics for the next time we get attacked. If I'm going to trust my life to someone journeying with me, I'm going to be very inquisitive about their powers and abilities. I would, but my character is an extremely devil-may-care free-spirited doesn't-plan-at-all impulsive sort. Not very 'group tactics' savvy. It'd be ferociously out of character.
Salla 11-03-06, 01:59 PM	Dragon shaman explains everything except the second attack, and i think I can do that with feats. But first dragon shaman Gives a breat weapon (3d6), and touch vitality at 6th level. So theres your breath weapon and healing. Also she could be using the Draconic aura of Vigor witch would give her, and allies within 30ft, fast healing 2. Now for the two attacks with a +1 simitar. She has a base attack bonus of +4, and a strength modifier of +6 or +7. Assuming she took TWF, and weapon focus scimitar she would have attacks take looked like so: Primary +8 or +9 dealing a d6 +7 or + 8, and a secondary that was similiar only that it delt half as much strength damage. This assumes at least a second scimitar of at least master work quality. A accounts for a -4 penalty to each attack, becuase the scimitar is not a light weapon. However many poeple mistake it for one, so she may be using it as a light weapon. Its a common mistake, i see it all the time. As for the strength, well a 6th level character has 13,000gp to start with according to the table in the DMG. Her +1 scimitar is worth 8,356 and guantlets of orger power are 4,000. That puts her at 12,356, leaving 644 for armour and a master work scimitar. Then all she would have to do is play a race that has a strength bonus. Lets say orc. assuming she started with an 18 strength, +4 for being an Orc, and +2 guantlets, that would give her a Strength of 24. Lets say she put her ability point for 4th level in stregnth as well. Thats a 25. She could also use the draconic aura power witch would add +2 to her damge, and make it seem like she had a higher strength. As for the Hit points, well assuming a decent con, we'll say 16. And the Dragon shamnes d10 hit dia. Her average amount of hit points should be 55.5. (assumes first Hit dia is maxed) Good rolling on her part/bad rolling on the fighters part, could account for the rest of the hit point difference. While we're at it lets assume 32 point by, 6th levl orc. Str 18 +4 22 16 Dex 14 +1 abilty score 6 Con 14 6 Int 8 -2 6 0 Wis 8 -2 6 0 Cha 12 -2 10 4 ------------------------ Tptal points used 32 Feats: Improved toughness CW, weapon focus semitar, TWF Abilities: draconic arua +2, breath wepaon 3d6, Touch of vitality, Skill focus, Draconic adaption, Draconic auras: Power, Vigor, Touchness, resistance HP: 55 (assumes average, rounded down.) attacks: +1 Scimitar +8 d6+7 (+9 with vigor) crit 18-20/X2 Master work scemitar + 8 d6+3 (+5 with vigor) crit 18-20/X2 Gear: +1 scimitar 8,356, masterwork scimiatr 356, Mithral chain shirt 1,100gp 3,188gp left over. This does not show favouritism, nor does it voilate the RAW, and accounts for everything in your post. It is but one of many ways to explain what she has. Perhaps instead of assuming favouritism, and whatever else, you could calm down, pull your head out of your ass, and think about things logically. And maybe she just doesn't you to see her character, becuase shes afriad you'l meta game/ be an ass about it. Kinda like you are being now. Excellent analysis ... the only major hitch is that she only has one scimitar, and that her healing powers have been represented as 'taps' (aka touches). Isn't trying to get information to come to a conclusion about something logical? That's why I posted this; to see if there's something that I don't know about that could explain what looks like a half-dragon with no LA hiking around. And this is not metagaming. This is player to DM, not 'player using player knowledge'. This is a purely OOC consideration wanting the DM to be fair to the group and not show favorites because one player is, shall we say, sharing a bed with him. Pardon the **** out of me for wanting to be treated fairly.
Kradlo 11-03-06, 02:26 PM	Perhaps the best solution is to ask the new player. For IC knowledge, you can get a detailed description of what her character looks like, what she's wearing and carrying, and you can certainly see her actions, so you'll know if she's casting spells (though not what spells she's casting without a Spellcraft check, which is trained only). For OOC information, just to make sure that she's not making errors (she might be new to D&D), you can ask about her race and class. If she's a dragon shaman (as others here have surmised), she'd have Touch of Vitality at 6th level, which uses a touch for healing (or "tap" as she's called it). The BAB of a 6th level Dragon Shaman would be +4, so no iterative attack. She might be unclear on the rules on that, so she might be making a mistake rather than deliberately cheating. Believe me, you haven't seen the more egregious effects of GM's Girlfriend. I've seen a 1st level character given a full set of mithril chainmail, a mithril sword, and a ring of power that would buy a continent. I kid you not.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-03-06, 02:27 PM	Pardon the **** out of me for wanting to be treated fairly. I would say that it is most likely still TWF, just described poorly. Still going with a the dragon shaman, its the easist right now, she gains both vigor and power, at level 1, the breath weapon at level 4. Thus she may have multi classed into something that grants an extra attacksuch as; a barbarain with the twirling rage variant from the UA. Or she could have taken 2 levels in monk, and the DM home her to be able to use the scimitar as a monk weapon, and she is flurrying. Even simplier is that she is in fact level 8. Her base attack bonus is now +6/+1, and her breath weapon is 4d6. We can play this game all day, but the point is that nothing you described seems to outragouse. I don't see any prove, or even any reason to susupect favourtism. You most likely ARE being treated fairly. My advice is to stop jumping to conclusions, and think about it rationally. There is no need for "fix it or I'll walk" as that most likely will just pick a fight. Why do you distrust your DM anyways? Is there a history of favouritism in you group? Are you jealouse of his G/F?
ChaoticGood 11-03-06, 03:12 PM	I agree with Salla. There was no need for that snide comment, Wings, especially when you didn't read his post closely enough to see that he specifically said she wasn't using TWF. It's not at all unreasonable for a player to be suspect when the DM's girlfriend shows up with a character that does everything by itself - and well - at 6th level.
Salla 11-03-06, 03:56 PM	We can play this game all day, but the point is that nothing you described seems to outragouse. I don't see any prove, or even any reason to susupect favourtism. You most likely ARE being treated fairly. My advice is to stop jumping to conclusions, and think about it rationally. There is no need for "fix it or I'll walk" as that most likely will just pick a fight. Why do you distrust your DM anyways? Is there a history of favouritism in you group? Are you jealouse of his G/F? History of poor rules knowledge (Trying to take improved critical at 1st level). History of chauvanism to female players (not PCs). Savage Shifter Barbarian with 6 Charisma are given babysitting jobs. Emotional development of a 15 year old. Takes all IC character-to-character statements personally, blows temper tantrum, walks out. Has applied Level Adjustments incorrectly before. Continually snuggles/cuddles/scritchies/necks with girlfriend in mid-game (which is disturbing and distracting). Regularly hands out far too much gear to us (which we voluntarily nerf). ANY-freakin'-way, you have, in fact, given me enough information to go on that I will simply make inquiries rather than simply assuming he's cheating or being fooled, for which you have my thanks. You have provided a reasonable, if far-fetched, possibility and I will take that under consideration. However, as far as insulting me goes, there's a very warm place you can go visit for a very long time, and take your family and pets with you. And I don't mean Acapulco.
Sim_antix 11-03-06, 04:14 PM	After reading and rereading your posts, along with the new info in your latest post I am going to recommend walking and taking all the players that are sick of a sub-par game with you.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-03-06, 04:34 PM	History of poor rules knowledge (Trying to take improved critical at 1st level). History of chauvanism to female players (not PCs). Savage Shifter Barbarian with 6 Charisma are given babysitting jobs. Emotional development of a 15 year old. Takes all IC character-to-character statements personally, blows temper tantrum, walks out. Has applied Level Adjustments incorrectly before. Continually snuggles/cuddles/scritchies/necks with girlfriend in mid-game (which is disturbing and distracting). Regularly hands out far too much gear to us (which we voluntarily nerf). ANY-freakin'-way, you have, in fact, given me enough information to go on that I will simply make inquiries rather than simply assuming he's cheating or being fooled, for which you have my thanks. You have provided a reasonable, if far-fetched, possibility and I will take that under consideration. However, as far as insulting me goes, there's a very warm place you can go visit for a very long time, and take your family and pets with you. And I don't mean Acapulco. I really didn't mean to be offensive...And you were coming off as a bit of a dork. Why are you so defensive about this anyways? And I'm trying not insulting you, I'm simply pointing out, that given the informatio you have presented here, I see no reason to suspect shinnangins. I just call it as I see it. Except for now with history you posted, assuming it is accurate. And honestly you are still sounding a wee bit jealouse of something here. Along with conceited and arrogant, never made a rules error, my ass. And further more, you yourself said you hadn't seen her sheet, how do you know what her gear is? Or is that you are interpetting something like "two attacks..." "I attack with my scemitar... and I attack with scemitar." As interive base attack. And as for you as telling me to go to hell, well if you don't like the answer to your question perhaps you shouldn't have asked it. here I'll answaer it in the way you would have preferred. "Yes she is cheating, and so is he! Why they are wrong, becuase you are right. She should leave him for you, he should rot in hell for not following the rules according to you. There is no possible that that character could be legal within the rules as writen. Becuase if you certainly can't think of the way to do it then they must be cheating. You should leave the game, for them daring to not explain everything to you, and make sure that you as a player approve of everything. We all must bow before the awsome DnD might of Salla." There will you sleep better at night now?
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 04:53 PM	Along with conceited and arrogant, never made a rules error, my ass. There's a difference between making a mistake and cheating.
Licínio Miranda 11-03-06, 05:14 PM	Since when a player can´t see other player´s sheet? Dis is somekind of house rule?
Matthew77 11-03-06, 07:14 PM	Generally, there is no reason for a Player to need to look at another Player's Character Sheet. I would consider it rude if another player inspected my character sheet without my permission. There are many reasons why a player might want to keep his abilities or personality or possessions a secret from other players. Only the DM has a right to demand to see a character sheet, and peering over someone's shoulder at their sheet is just impolite.
UltimateReality 11-03-06, 07:15 PM	Since when a player can´t see other player´s sheet? Dis is somekind of house rule?Some groups do it. I know ours did for a short while (although it was a case of "DM keeps the sheets to encourage roleplay", and decided mutually). In many play by posts or online games the players don't really share their sheets with each other either. Anyway TPK, calm down and go have one of those chocolate milkshakes you make so well. :pint: I think we've all decided the problem merits more investigation and either conclusion is reasonable at this point. No need to attack the OP personally.
Salla 11-03-06, 07:49 PM	I really didn't mean to be offensive...And you were coming off as a bit of a dork. Why are you so defensive about this anyways? And I'm trying not insulting you, I'm simply pointing out, that given the informatio you have presented here, I see no reason to suspect shinnangins. I just call it as I see it. Except for now with history you posted, assuming it is accurate. And honestly you are still sounding a wee bit jealouse of something here. Along with conceited and arrogant, never made a rules error, my ass. And if I do, if someone else in the group corrects me, I take it as a good thing. With the information I had, I couldn't come up with a legal way the character could exist. You gave me something which is only a minor screwup, and I thanked you for it. And further more, you yourself said you hadn't seen her sheet, how do you know what her gear is? Or is that you are interpetting something like "two attacks..." "I attack with my scemitar... and I attack with scemitar." As interive base attack. Because when she described the character, she said she had one scimitar and no other weapons. And as for you as telling me to go to hell, well if you don't like the answer to your question perhaps you shouldn't have asked it. Oh, I wanted an answer, and you provided it. For which I have thanked you. here I'll answaer it in the way you would have preferred. "Yes she is cheating, and so is he! Why they are wrong, becuase you are right. She should leave him for you, he should rot in hell for not following the rules according to you. There is no possible that that character could be legal within the rules as writen. Becuase if you certainly can't think of the way to do it then they must be cheating. You should leave the game, for them daring to not explain everything to you, and make sure that you as a player approve of everything. We all must bow before the awsome DnD might of Salla." There will you sleep better at night now? Yes.
Licínio Miranda 11-03-06, 08:05 PM	There is too much hatred on this thread... woow... Anyway, I see no problem someon seeing my sheet. In my group, people can see enyones sheet and no one gets angry. I don´t understand why it isn´t "polite". It´s just a sheet... it´not like it´s written "ok, I´m chaotic evil and no one will know that!"
Salla 11-03-06, 08:19 PM	There is too much hatred on this thread... woow... Anyway, I see no problem someon seeing my sheet. In my group, people can see enyones sheet and no one gets angry. I don´t understand why it isn´t "polite". It´s just a sheet... it´not like it´s written "ok, I´m chaotic evil and no one will know that!" And the hatred should subside now that TPK is on my ignore list. I agree. When another player asks me (out of character) what I do, or what spells I have, I just pass the sheet. It's faster and easier than rattling off two dozen spells and skills, and I have no reason to hide it.
TheWerg 11-03-06, 08:55 PM	Okay, ask to see the character sheet one more time, just to be fair. If denied, there are several mathematical solutions to the situation: Bathroom break+Character Sheet+Lighter Fluid+Lighter= No more problems with that character. Of course, you'll probably be killed for this or something... Chewing through a pen thing and spilling the ink all over the sheet also works. Just eliminate the sheet. Oh and if sheet-hiding is "house-ruled in" or something like that, you could always exploit the system in a similar way or do something else that will give your DM headaches, like popping over to the Character Optimization boards and saying "Give me Pun-Pun, version x."
Fatalis_902 11-03-06, 09:52 PM	There is too much hatred on this thread... woow... Anyway, I see no problem someon seeing my sheet. In my group, people can see enyones sheet and no one gets angry. I don´t understand why it isn´t "polite". It´s just a sheet... it´not like it´s written "ok, I´m chaotic evil and no one will know that!" If you think that this is too much hatred... You should see what happens when Aeromus and I get at each other's throats. Has only happened once, and you could positively feel the inferno from all the flames.
X-Codes 11-03-06, 11:33 PM	Thats probably an Orc Dragonborn Paladin (possibly the Paladin of Freedom variant in UA). They're pretty awesome, but nothing game-breaking. While she's a fiend in combat, she's probably pretty crappy at social situations. How sure are you of her ability scores? Any chance she has only an 18 or 20 for Strength? Also, how do you roll stats? EDIT: The OP said this was a level 6 game. X of speed is highly unlikely unless favortism is involved and Dragon Shamans don't get touch of vitality until level 8. They actually don't even get MWP or full BAB. Plus, the breath weapon can apparently be of more than one energy type, which Dragon Shamans don't get (they have to pick one). Bolded are gender corrections. Hilighted in red is incorrect information. Regardless, this has been entirely ingnored as a possibility, which it is. Two high rolls going towards Charisma and Strength make any paladin deadly. Anyway, any game where the DM smooches with one of the players repeatedly is a game I'm not a part of. Anyone that gets their rocks off to D&D can play a private session with an appropriate counterpart.
Salla 11-04-06, 12:06 AM	Bolded are gender corrections. Hilighted in red is incorrect information. Regardless, this has been entirely ingnored as a possibility, which it is. Two high rolls going towards Charisma and Strength make any paladin deadly. Anyway, any game where the DM smooches with one of the players repeatedly is a game I'm not a part of. Anyone that gets their rocks off to D&D can play a private session with an appropriate counterpart. She expressly stated her STR score (as another 'ha-ha', in the style of Nelson of the Simpsons, at the 18 STR elven fighter), though I can't remember if she said 22 or 24, it was definitely one of those. The stats are rolled 4d6, reroll 1s, take the top 3, but the DM doesn't monitor the process (He told us how to roll stats, and had us make the characters on our own between the previous DM's game and his). So I'm not sure if he trusts us not to cheat, or doesn't care if we do. I suppose technically I 'cheated' when I made the character by arbitrarily lowering two of my rolls 'cause I wanted a low STR and WIS and didn't get two low-enough rolls, but I doubt anybody would take me to task for it. ;)
Sim_antix 11-04-06, 12:09 AM	Are you capable of DMing or do you know another DM?
Salla 11-04-06, 12:18 AM	Are you capable of DMing or do you know another DM? We do a rotation ... there are five (now six counting the GF, but I don't know if she runs anything), and in general we change DMs in order. So, it's like me, then him, then my wife, then the other guy (the fifth guy chooses not to run).
Sim_antix 11-04-06, 12:20 AM	I suggest talking to the rest of the players and seeing if they are as fed up as you are.
Salla 11-04-06, 12:26 AM	I suggest talking to the rest of the players and seeing if they are as fed up as you are. Oh, they are ... unfortunately, it's far too much like kicking an annoying puppy. You don't want to deal with it, but you'll feel bad if you give it the boot.
Wayett 11-04-06, 12:34 AM	lol On_the_wings_of_TPK and Salla aren't getting along! well you can't like everybody! From wat has been typed, think it is either A: She is a Dragon Shaman and DM made an ability switch(traded fast healing for touchy thing of healing), changed the attack bonuses, and she took a few feats that make her attack twice. Or B: Dm likes gf more then the universe and gave her control of the game as she seduced him into oblivion, but thats a little over the top. Maybe he just wants her to have fun on her first game, or she knows some tricks with feats to get different things, one PC in our group at sixth lvl was a Swordsage/Paladin and dealt around 60-100 dmg a round to some happless kobold or orc, a little over kill, but the character wasn't good at anything else, and wasn't good at killing more then one at a time. The game DnD is flexiable, and with each new instalment something gets stronger. Just ask her to tone it down, and let others have fun(tell her to share). Thats all I have to say about this. PEACE!!(hope evrything works out 4 u)
unusualsuspect 11-04-06, 01:24 AM	My guess? Dragonborn Orc Paladin. 1. Appearance: Dragonborn look like half-dragons. Frankly, from the pictures, they look more like half-dragons then the half-dragons look like half-dragons. 2. Strength and Toughness: A Dragonborn keeps the original race's ability adjustments, and applies the dragonborn adjustments on top of those adjustments. As an Dragonborn Orc, the abilities would be adjusted like so: +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha. Thus, a dragonborn orc is going to be, on average stronger then any other race, and as tough or tougher then any other LA 0 race I know. Lets imagine your friend rolled 18, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10... high, but not impossible. Str 22, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 12. 3. Healing: Paladins gain a healing touch. It is based off cha... so limited healing, likely, but healing none-the-less. 4. Breath Weapon: An orc dragonborn who chooses the "heart" progression will gain a breath weapon of whatever damage type they chose to use at the time that deals a certain amount of damage, 3d8 to be specific. This damage can change, i repeat, on whim. Mentioning the Chaos Dragon might simply have been flavor. If the breath weapon was used more then once, this option fits even better... the ability can be used at will, every 1d4 rounds. 5. Two attacks at lvl 6: Paladins have a 1:1 bab ratio, thus a 6th level paladin would have two attacks at lvl 6, at attack bonus +6/+1. Am I missing anything? Anything i happen to be missing (Feat capabilities, perhaps?) could probably be covered by the dragonborn paladin multiclassing into a different full bab base class (or PrC... 6th level is where a few become available, no?) or judicious feat choice. Regardless, I'd say a Dragonborn Orc Paladin is probably your best bet by a longshot ASSUMING the DM's hunny-muffin was, in fact, using a perfectly legal build. And it is perfectly legal, if particularly rules-munchkinny, as the only thing the orc is giving up by going dragonborn is darkvision out to 60 ft (oh dear, the horror) and friggin' LIGHT SENSITIVITY, which is a drawback, not a benefit. Hope that helps.
High Octane 11-04-06, 11:20 AM	Heres an idea, INSIST you read the character sheet. You are honestly wondering how she got that! There is nothing wrong with asking to see. If she refuses, shes cheating.
Licínio Miranda 11-04-06, 12:30 PM	Heres an idea, INSIST you read the character sheet. You are honestly wondering how she got that! There is nothing wrong with asking to see. If she refuses, shes cheating. BE CAREFULL! It´s not polite to do that! :D :D :D :D
Sim_antix 11-04-06, 01:11 PM	Its also not polite to give your new gf a huge advantage over every other player by "cheating" for her. Yes I know a DM can't cheat (I am a DM after all) but still when it comes to PC creation everyone needs to be on the same level or it just becomes the game of "Look how cool I am and how much the rest of you SUCK!"
DarknessEternal 11-04-06, 01:33 PM	BE CAREFULL! It´s not polite to do that! :D :D :D :D What's impolite about it? It's just a character sheet.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-04-06, 01:39 PM	Apparently I'm on the OPs ignore list (darn I'll be sure to lose sleep over that one.), so this is aimed at the general audience. The OP is a player, not the DM. He does not have the right to demand anything. Whether or not the other player is playing something he approves of is none of his business. The DM allowed it. The DM in this particular campiagn allowed this other player to play this character. As two posters have now shown it is entirely possible within the RAW a multitude of different ways. Further more you can't be "cheating" if your DM allows the build in the game. I would suspect cheating if it were something outragouse, like OMG she flys, does 4,000,000 points of damge, and shoots lightning from hers with fire from her arse! But it isn't, it's a stregnth of 22, or 24 at 6th, with some from of healing, and a breath weapon. None of that is unreasonable, nor is it over powered. A paldin of equal level has a smite attack, and its own mount. Barabarain have rage, and DR, rogues deal a fire balls worth of damage when flanking, and druids, well druids are devouring Tokyo at this point. What I suspect here is that Salla's fighter has been out power gamed, and he resents her for it. Possiblely becuase it cuaght him by surprise, and he is looking for any other reason, then his character is poorly put togtehr next to his friends G/F. Perhaps he has shown favouritism in the past, and maybe he does run over powered campigns. But again I have not seen, or read evedence of it in this case. I can only call it as I see it. And what I see is someone fraking out becuase they just witnessed why fighter 6 is the suck, compared to well anything over 2nd level.
Sim_antix 11-04-06, 01:49 PM	Fighter 6 does not suck compared to everything else. It is starting to fall behind but it isn't all that noticable... yet. You can't be cheating if the DM allows it. Fine but then the DM is cheating for you and it all adds up the same. Why would she have to be in the upper stratosphere of blatant cheating for you to become suspicous? Her character probably does have some twinks to it and it is perfectly reasonable to want to see her character sheet. Player or not everyone at the table has the right to know that they are being treated fairly. When we play I won't allow my gf to even so much as put her hand on my leg. No kissing, no cuddling and without question NO FAVORITISM!
High Octane 11-04-06, 03:05 PM	Shes not just possibly cheating, shes shoving it in the other player's face.
Licínio Miranda 11-04-06, 06:13 PM	Here it is: Generally, there is no reason for a Player to need to look at another Player's Character Sheet. I would consider it rude if another player inspected my character sheet without my permission. There are many reasons why a player might want to keep his abilities or personality or possessions a secret from other players. Only the DM has a right to demand to see a character sheet, and peering over someone's shoulder at their sheet is just impolite. It isn´t polite to see someone´s else character sheet. ;) Just kidding! :D Anyway, he, as a player, has the right YES to demand ANYTHING, specillay when there is something going very WRONG with the game like it´s now happening. if I was him, I would just go to this girl and say: "hey, what is your character, anyway?" C´mon! She wouldn´t answer it? Maybe because it´s not polite to ask what the hell is my teammate in a RPG game?? :confused:
X-Codes 11-04-06, 10:13 PM	The OP is a player, not the DM. He does not have the right to demand anything. Whether or not the other player is playing something he approves of is none of his business. The DM allowed it. The DM in this particular campiagn allowed this other player to play this character. As two posters have now shown it is entirely possible within the RAW a multitude of different ways. Further more you can't be "cheating" if your DM allows the build in the game. Those who rule, rule with the permission of the ruled. In other words, if the DM is using Rule 0 to allow one character to become fantastically more powerful than another in the same group, then the group is well within their rights to stop playing under that DM. The OP simply wants to know whether or not that is the case. I would suspect cheating if it were something outragouse, like OMG she flys, does 4,000,000 points of damge, and shoots lightning from hers with fire from her arse! But it isn't, it's a stregnth of 22, or 24 at 6th, with some from of healing, and a breath weapon. None of that is unreasonable, nor is it over powered. If someone cheats like that then it becomes obvious, and nobody would want to play with her. The OP is concerned that the player in question is fudging things to gain an advantage the rest of the party doesn't have. What I suspect here is that Salla's fighter has been out power gamed, and he resents her for it. Possiblely becuase it cuaght him by surprise, and he is looking for any other reason, then his character is poorly put togtehr next to his friends G/F. Perhaps he has shown favouritism in the past, and maybe he does run over powered campigns. But again I have not seen, or read evedence of it in this case. I can only call it as I see it. And what I see is someone fraking out becuase they just witnessed why fighter 6 is the suck, compared to well anything over 2nd level. This is the stupidest Ad Hominem attack I've ever seen, and I've been following the elections. Salla JUST said that he voluntarily lowered his Strength and Wisdom, two stats that no sane Fighter would ever dump. Next, he VOLUNTARILY lowered his stats, which suggests that he wants to play a flawed character instead of a master of the universe (which is possible, at level 3 no less). If Player 1 is allowed to do something that Player 2 can't, then the game becomes less fun for Player 2 because he's being treated unfairly. Again, if the DM started schmoozing with one of the players mid-session, I'd get a new DM. It's being disingenuous to the rest of the group, saying that he's going to spend time to have fun with all his friends and then all but ignore them the entire time.
Always-Late 11-04-06, 10:35 PM	Those who rule, rule with the permission of the ruled. In other words, if the DM is using Rule 0 to allow one character to become fantastically more powerful than another in the same group, then the group is well within their rights to stop playing under that DM. The OP simply wants to know whether or not that is the case. If someone cheats like that then it becomes obvious, and nobody would want to play with her. The OP is concerned that the player in question is fudging things to gain an advantage the rest of the party doesn't have.:confused:This is the stupidest Ad Hominem attack I've ever seen, and I've been following the elections. Salla JUST said that he voluntarily lowered his Strength and Wisdom, two stats that no sane Fighter would ever dump. Next, he VOLUNTARILY lowered his stats, which suggests that he wants to play a flawed character instead of a master of the universe (which is possible, at level 3 no less). If Player 1 is allowed to do something that Player 2 can't, then the game becomes less fun for Player 2 because he's being treated unfairly.Yeah... Player 1 is allowed to not-dump-his-stats. Man, this is unfair for Player 2. If you lower your own stats, don't start complaining that everybody's stats are higher than yours.Again, if the DM started schmoozing with one of the players mid-session, I'd get a new DM. It's being disingenuous to the rest of the group, saying that he's going to spend time to have fun with all his friends and then all but ignore them the entire time.Do you have any evidence saying that the DM's going to ignore everyone else?
X-Codes 11-04-06, 10:40 PM	:confused: You, with the dumb pokemon avatar. Read the thread before you post, that might help your confusion.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-04-06, 10:50 PM	Player is playing a wizard. Player two is playing fighter. Player one can cast fire ball. Player two can't. Is player 1 cheating? Does the fighters lack of arcane ability make the game unfun for everyone else? Player 2 decides to lower his stats, for balance. Is it right that all other players adopt his style of play, and nerf themselves as well? Should the player set the balance of the campaign, or the DM? And does that play then have the right to complain that he is being under powered becuase the other players didn't nerf themselves? In this case the player simple does not want Salla to see her character sheet. Is justified? I dunno. Is it within her rights as a player, to not show her character to every else at the table, except the DM? Yes, why should she have to? Did the DM allow her build? I think we can assume so. Do we have evedence she is cheating? Not really, a little bit of cercomstancial evedence, maybe, but nothing conclusive. Is Salla having fun with this current campaign? Doesn't sound like it. Maybe him walking is best. I just don't think he should make a seen of it filled with ultimatiums and demands. When did being civil to our friends go out of style?
PSchirf 11-04-06, 11:01 PM	The job of the DM is to make an environment where the players feel the game is both fun and fair. If, as a player, you feel that one character in the group is unbalanced, then this should be talked about by the group. If the other players also feel the same way then simply ask the DM to make the game "feel" more fair in the future. There are a lot of ways that this can happen, and many don't involve a reduction of "power" in the GFs toon.
X-Codes 11-04-06, 11:04 PM	Player is playing a wizard. Player two is playing fighter. Player one can cast fire ball. Player two can't. Is player 1 cheating? Does the fighters lack of arcane ability make the game unfun for everyone else? How did I know you were going to bring up class abilities... Player 2 is perfectly able to cast fireballs, he just has to take at least 5 levels in Wizard or 6 levels in Sorcerer, which is the same requirement that Player 1 had to go through in order to cast fireballs. If you don't understand that, you really need to re-read the PHB. Player 2 decides to lower his stats, for balance. Is it right that all other players adopt his style of play, and nerf themselves as well? Should the player set the balance of the campaign, or the DM? And does that play then have the right to complain that he is being under powered becuase the other players didn't nerf themselves? He did it for flavor purposes. Superman sucks until you involve Kryptonite. By the same line of thought, having a character that does everything better than everyone else sucks because he can't be challenged. In this case the player simple does not want Salla to see her character sheet. Is justified? I dunno. Is it within her rights as a player, to not show her character to every else at the table, except the DM? Yes, why should she have to? Did the DM allow her build? I think we can assume so. Do we have evedence she is cheating? Not really, a little bit of cercomstancial evedence, maybe, but nothing conclusive. She should show him her character sheet because D&D is a collaborative game between not just the players but the players *and* the DM. Turning D&D into a competitive game sharply diminishes the experience. Is Salla having fun with this current campaign? Doesn't sound like it. Maybe him walking is best. I just don't think he should make a seen of it filled with ultimatiums and demands. When did being civil to our friends go out of style? When someone hides ultimately inconcequential information from someone else just because they can. Of course, that can still be considered being civil towards friends, since friendship implies some measure of trust obviously abscent in this game.
Always-Late 11-04-06, 11:38 PM	You, with the totally awesome pokemon avatar. Read the thread before you post, that might help your confusion. Oh, and by the way, I bow down to your avatar.I was here on the first page and brought up the Dragon Shaman in the first place. Maybe not everybody who disagrees with you hasn't read the thread.
Jell_Moo 11-05-06, 01:13 AM	The OP is a player, not the DM. He does not have the right to demand anything. Whether or not the other player is playing something he approves of is none of his business. The DM allowed it. The DM in this particular campiagn allowed this other player to play this character. As two posters have now shown it is entirely possible within the RAW a multitude of different ways. Further more you can't be "cheating" if your DM allows the build in the game. I have to disagree with this statement. All players in any given game have the right to expect the game to be run on an even playing field. Should the DM be handing out a free LA +whatever template to one player but not to others, then there is an obvious game imbalance. I, as a player, have the right to demand that the game be fair and that no favoritism is displayed to any other player by the DM. To back up that right, I have the ability to leave the game and not play with a DM that I feel is "breaking the rules". Does that mean I would get up and leave at the first hint of trouble? Of course not. I would try to calmly and rationally explain the issue and see if it can be resolved. However, if the DM decides that it is in fact ok to favor one player over others so strongly, then I would in fact pack up and leave, exercising my right to not play in a game I deem unfair. Now, is this the case in the game that the OP is describing? I have no earthly idea. Several legitimate possibilities have been mentioned as to how the character described could be created legally. My advice would be to talk to the DM and player and simply flat out ask what the character is. No need to be confrontational, but I don't see why a simple question as "So, what exactly are you playing?" should be an issue.
Sim_antix 11-05-06, 02:21 AM	I'm interested to hear what happens...
ChaoticGood 11-05-06, 02:33 AM	For those of you who keep throwing out TWF and "Orc Dragonborn" responses... The OP has said on at least three occasions that the character in question has, by her own statement, only a single scimitar as a weapon, and has said at least once, possibly twice, that the character is an ELF. That being the case, the only way for her to have two attacks per round is to either: A. Use a weapon of speed - far beyond the ability of a 6th level character to purchase with the standard wealth-by-level... Ergo, DM favoritism in handing out starting wealth. B. Have a full BAB - which is impossible if she has a correctly-done level adjustment... Ergo, player and/or DM error in figuring level adjustment. Both of these options warrant investigation and correction by the other player(s). If the former, the OP has every right to walk. If the latter, then it must be determined whether the mistake was made by accident or not. In either case, it still needs to be fixed in order to bring the character in line with the rest of the party.
X-Codes 11-05-06, 07:31 AM	I was here on the first page and brought up the Dragon Shaman in the first place. Maybe not everybody who disagrees with you hasn't read the thread. Reading the OP =! Reading the Thread Next, don't misquote people, or I'm going to start calling you a rat bastard Republican. Seriously, it's not cool at all. All a man has is his word, when you lie about what he says you insult all that he is. For those of you who keep throwing out TWF and "Orc Dragonborn" responses... The OP has said on at least three occasions that the character in question has, by her own statement, only a single scimitar as a weapon, and has said at least once, possibly twice, that the character is an ELF. I just did a quick search to make certain, but you are the first person to even mention elves in this entire thread, which means Orc Dragonborn is still in play.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-05-06, 08:43 AM	Heres an idea, INSIST you read the character sheet. You are honestly wondering how she got that! There is nothing wrong with asking to see. If she refuses, shes cheating. I don't cheat, but I would seriously laugh my ass off at someone insisting on reading my sheet.
X-Codes 11-05-06, 08:49 AM	I don't cheat, but I would seriously laugh my ass off at someone insisting on reading my sheet. Dare I ask why?
SillyRobot 11-05-06, 08:50 AM	There are lots of ways to fit this depending on what books and variants are allowed. Really, there simply isn't enough information other than to say "it may be legal depending upon your laws". I'll ignore setting-specific material in trying to find a match. Dragonblood seems to fit the appearance, and having a breath weapon. Paladin of Freedom variant from Unearthed Arcana may account for the loose code of honour while providing full BAB and Lay on Hands. As for original race, perhaps one of the Elf variants -- maybe Wood Elf (+2 Str -2 Int). So the total racial modifiers would be +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int. Assume an 18 base Str and you have 20 Str before magic items. Drop second best stat into Con and third into Cha and your are good to go. Assume +2 Gloves of Ogre Strength and a +2 Amulet of Endurance and you are matching all your observations though the Strength only hits 22. The character still has 4,800 gp to spend on other goodies. The 'Chaos Dragon' breath weapon effect applies to half-dragons and randomises the breath into one of the base 5 attack forms. It could be that the DM allowed the player to nerf the character slightly by applying that randomisation to the choice the character normally receives for the breath. That looks like a legal way it could be done, but that doesn't mean it was constructed that way. It could just as easily be a botched "Half-dragon via racial levels" where the LA is applied over time as the character hits level breaks (rules for this are also given in Races of Dragon). I say botched because those level breaks where you receive your LA adjustments you are not supposed to receive class advancement and you must take one LA advancement at 2nd level so the BAB wouldn't increase. Receiving a breath weapon via this route starts at LA +2 so BAB would max at +4. Under this scenario, the racial adjustments would be +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha (beyond the base racial adjustments). I would suggest simply asking her if she is a dragonborn, draconic template, or half-dragon.
Always-Late 11-05-06, 01:05 PM	Reading the OP =! Reading the Thread Next, don't misquote people, or I'm going to start calling you a rat bastard Republican. Seriously, it's not cool at all. All a man has is his word, when you lie about what he says you insult all that he is.When you insult my avatar you insult all that I am. :rolleyes: I read the whole thread. I still think you're wrong on the points which I already mentioned in the first post and you ignored. All I see, right now, is somebody misread the BaB on a Dragon Shaman, and there's no need to make a fuss about it.
Sim_antix 11-05-06, 01:22 PM	I don't cheat, but I would seriously laugh my ass off at someone insisting on reading my sheet. Thats nice but then again there is suspicion of twinking here and every player has the right to know they are being treated fairly. If some player and the DM sat and smirked while I voiced concerns that his character might be munchkinized they would be lucky if all I did was walk...
The White Sorcerer 11-05-06, 04:58 PM	:confused: What exactly are you confused about?
Always-Late 11-05-06, 05:01 PM	What exactly are you confused about?Check the quote above. One says that Rule 0 to make one character fantastically more powerful makes the game suck, and the other says that that sort of cheating would be obvious and wouldn't happen, namely, not fantastic.
The White Sorcerer 11-05-06, 05:18 PM	and the other says that that sort of cheating would be obvious and wouldn't happen, namely, not fantastic. The obvious cheating refers to dealing 40,000 points of damage and such. Read the post you quoted again.
Licínio Miranda 11-05-06, 05:45 PM	I think the op should go RIGHT NOW to this girl´s house, break into it, threat her and take a look at this sheet once and for all. Now it´s I that wants to know what kind of creature is this girl playing!! :D
Always-Late 11-05-06, 06:36 PM	The obvious cheating refers to dealing 40,000 points of damage and such. Read the post you quoted again.Define "fantastic" for me, then.
X-Codes 11-05-06, 06:50 PM	Define "fantastic" for me, then. It could be as simple as discount or free magic items, maxed stats, free feats, a looser interpetation of the rules... Characters can be powerful without having their power be readily obvious, especially if nobody is allowed to see the character sheet. Hell, until Pun-Pun attacks, he looks like your average, everyday kobold, if not something even more innocuous (he can be pretty much whatever he wants).
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-05-06, 07:52 PM	There are two theories here: 1) The DM is odviousely cheating on behalf of he G/F. She must have been given something that is not within the rules, and that is the source of her power. Salla, as a player, has the right to inspect her character sheet for WMD, or what have you. And once vindacated shouls trom out of the session with the rest of the players. 2) Salla is a scrub. No rules have actually been broken, and the player in question is probally sick of Salla acusing her of cheating everytime she trys to use/play a character for/as something other then what it's iconic is. Such as say a ranger not having TWF, or any character with TWF who is not a ranger, and having more HP then the fighter is unheard of. Only pladins have lay on hands, and only the half-dragon template grants a breath weapon.
X-Codes 11-05-06, 09:21 PM	The DM is possibly cheating on behalf of his G/F. She could have been given something that is not within the rules, and that is the source of her power. Salla, as a player, has the right to inspect her character sheet for favortism, and, if that is the case, has the right to ask the DM to stop showing favortism and give everyone the same opportunities. A Dragonborn based off a race with a Strength bonus with Paladin levels is not the most obvious thing in the world, and can still be fudged. I think you need to lose the superiority complex and awknowledge that, regardless of whether or not the DM is showing favortism, the secrecy is creating a negative atmosphere for the game making it less fun for the other players at the table. Nevermind that asking to see another player's character sheet is a perfectly reasonable request. You're a nerd sitting at a table with other nerds determining the path of a fantasy storyline with dice, not top-level CIA agents fighting to save the world from intelligence.
The White Sorcerer 11-05-06, 10:12 PM	CIA agents fighting to save the world from intelligence. I'll have to use this as a premise for a not-too-serious modern campaign someday.
PSchirf 11-05-06, 10:43 PM	You're a nerd sitting at a table with other nerds determining the path of a fantasy storyline with dice, not top-level CIA agents fighting to save the world from intelligence. Hey now... some of us nerds are sitting at a table with very unnerdlike family members who only play with us out of pity (in the case of our wifes) or as a ploy to get a higher allowance (in the case of our kids). I just worry about the players who actually are top-level CIA agents.
the_rooster 11-05-06, 11:15 PM	Just my 2 cents....she could be a dragon shaman who simply misunderstands what constitutes extra attacks. What I mean is, when I first learned D&D 3.0, I thought having a +6 to attack gave extra attacks (i.e. 17 STR plus a +3 BAB as opposed to having a +6 BAB). Perhaps that is why? Just a thought.
Teron Gorefiend 11-06-06, 12:45 AM	**** off, TPK. Salla just asked if there was any way a 6th level PC could match what he knows about the girlfriend's character, or whether he should make a reasonable complaint to the DM. Yet, for some reason, you've been an antagonistic jerk from your first post. Instead of contributing to the discussion, you've taken it upon yourself to convince everyone that Salla is the kind of retarded dick you're acting like yourself. Salla, just go ahead and ask the player and/or your DM what's up. They either prove they're not cheating, or you leave and find another game where you'll have more fun. TPK can pretend it's good riddance for the rest of the group if it helps him sleep at night.
X-Codes 11-06-06, 05:49 AM	Hey now... some of us nerds are sitting at a table with very unnerdlike family members who only play with us out of pity (in the case of our wifes) or as a ploy to get a higher allowance (in the case of our kids). I just worry about the players who actually are top-level CIA agents. Yes, I know... but the vast majority of us are, in fact, nerds.
Grogmir 11-06-06, 09:28 AM	I am currently a level 5 dragon shaman and at level 6 I will be able to do everything he said she could do. Except the extra attack. My first thought is that this conversation happened when he set up his GFs character. GF “Right and so I can a BAB of +3 DM “Nah that can’t be right, there a melee character and so should have 1-1 progression GF “Says here its +3 DM “Well that’s rubbish, you can assume its 1-1” I must admit to wishing that for my Dragon Shaman!. Especially with only being proficent with simple weapons! But the real reason I have this is I can sympathize with the poster is. In my game there is this Character. Half-Giant Psyonic Warrior. (Adolfa) His Stats are Str 21 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 18 Cha 10 (Dice’s rolled in secret) He ‘convinced’ the DM to allow him to TWF with two longswords at no penalty. (He only has the TFW feat) no ambidextry. Although we started as lvl 4 characters we only got ~100gp to spend on are gear (we are refugee’s) but somehow he was able to get chain mail (150gp) plus everything else. Also he seems to have 5 feats, which I’m not sure about as he wont let anyone else look at his psyonics book. There is also a pesky +1 Level Adjustment that he seems to have written down but ‘forgotten’ about. So I can understand how Salla feels. We are the two PC’s that are Melee based. It is our job to hack n slah (as well as other stuff). Currently this is xxxxxtremely boring for me. As I stand there hardly ever hitting while Adolfa mashes everything with its +8 to hit and +Silly something damage. Now the rest of the party aint bothered. They have there stick and so they just go about doing what they do well. But I feel, well pretty useless. Two Melee Characters are obviously going to have to share the lime light but heck I’m not getting any lime let alone light. We are currently 6 sessions in, having fought many battles and I have yet to kill anything. Its not like I have a lot of out of battle skills as well. Its not that im weak either I was rather pleased with my Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 15 So two weeks into our game I say “look we have lost our cleric (couldn’t commit) and I’m not overly happy with my character so I say “I know this aint good but could I start again as Druid” Instant drawing of breath. “Group and DM= “Oh… that’s against the rules”. Later that session I get rended by a troll and go down to -12 hit points. While mourning his death I was visible excited and pleased (just couldn’t help myself) and I said great now I can play that druid. DM “Eh nah sorry House rule – we play that your death point is equal to your consitution.” Nooooooo.. Eh I mean Yes great. So in summary, I can fully understand salla wanting to know what the eck has gone on. Its seems like very borderline nerfing, and I can tell you right now that it just doesn’t feel right to have others playing by other rules. I have found it very hard to get comfortable to ‘just accept and have fun’ as everyone keeps telling me to. Salla, your not the only one! Grogmir P.S nobody wants to play the sidekick!
Manic Man 11-06-06, 12:09 PM	The DM is supposed to ensure a fair playing field When 1 player appears to do everything Does not show her character sheet nor tell people what is the build/race DM gets touchy feely with said player Then the above mentioned fair playing field is now no longer in existance as with it goes the DM's perceived impartiality (note the "perceived" as the DM is likely to fudge some rolls in favor of all the players) I do not see any reason why some of the posters here are attacking the OP, as purely from the OP's description, the fairness of the playing field does have suspicions. Of course it may be a case of birds of a feather?
Licínio Miranda 11-06-06, 12:10 PM	I am currently a level 5 dragon shaman and at level 6 I will be able to do everything he said she could do. Except the extra attack. My first thought is that this conversation happened when he set up his GFs character. GF “Right and so I can a BAB of +3 DM “Nah that can’t be right, there a melee character and so should have 1-1 progression GF “Says here its +3 DM “Well that’s rubbish, you can assume its 1-1” I must admit to wishing that for my Dragon Shaman!. Especially with only being proficent with simple weapons! But the real reason I have this is I can sympathize with the poster is. In my game there is this Character. Half-Giant Psyonic Warrior. (Adolfa) His Stats are Str 21 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 18 Cha 10 (Dice’s rolled in secret) He ‘convinced’ the DM to allow him to TWF with two longswords at no penalty. (He only has the TFW feat) no ambidextry. Although we started as lvl 4 characters we only got ~100gp to spend on are gear (we are refugee’s) but somehow he was able to get chain mail (150gp) plus everything else. Also he seems to have 5 feats, which I’m not sure about as he wont let anyone else look at his psyonics book. There is also a pesky +1 Level Adjustment that he seems to have written down but ‘forgotten’ about. So I can understand how Salla feels. We are the two PC’s that are Melee based. It is our job to hack n slah (as well as other stuff). Currently this is xxxxxtremely boring for me. As I stand there hardly ever hitting while Adolfa mashes everything with its +8 to hit and +Silly something damage. Now the rest of the party aint bothered. They have there stick and so they just go about doing what they do well. But I feel, well pretty useless. Two Melee Characters are obviously going to have to share the lime light but heck I’m not getting any lime let alone light. We are currently 6 sessions in, having fought many battles and I have yet to kill anything. Its not like I have a lot of out of battle skills as well. Its not that im weak either I was rather pleased with my Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 15 So two weeks into our game I say “look we have lost our cleric (couldn’t commit) and I’m not overly happy with my character so I say “I know this aint good but could I start again as Druid” Instant drawing of breath. “Group and DM= “Oh… that’s against the rules”. Later that session I get rended by a troll and go down to -12 hit points. While mourning his death I was visible excited and pleased (just couldn’t help myself) and I said great now I can play that druid. DM “Eh nah sorry House rule – we play that your death point is equal to your consitution.” Nooooooo.. Eh I mean Yes great. So in summary, I can fully understand salla wanting to know what the eck has gone on. Its seems like very borderline nerfing, and I can tell you right now that it just doesn’t feel right to have others playing by other rules. I have found it very hard to get comfortable to ‘just accept and have fun’ as everyone keeps telling me to. Salla, your not the only one! Grogmir P.S nobody wants to play the sidekick! Sad story. ever. Your DM is horrible and it´s obvous that this hal-giant has cheated. Tell your DM that he is the JUDGE. He must know the rules, if he doens´t, it´s not allowed. Sometimens, once in your life (It happened with me), you´re capable of rolling awesome stats. Like 18, 16, 16, 17, 13, 12 or something. But that´s once in your life. And that happens in front of everybody. This guy that plays with the half-giant is cheating. FACT.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 01:10 PM	Becuase I love it when poeple tell me to :censored: off, I thought i would invite some more. Everyone seems to have drawn the conclusion that Salla has the right, as a player, to inspect anyones chaarcter sheet whenever he deems nessesary. And they have also drawn the conclusion that Player 2 in this case is cheating with colusion of the DM. I however have drawn a sightly different conclusion. So what i'll do is walk you guys through what lead me to my conclusion, and then I'll go and try and figure out if hate speech is protected by the Canadain charter of rights and freedoms. Okay ... here's what got introduced as a PC in the last game. I didn't actually SEE the sheet, but if anybody out there can figure out how this can possibly be a legal build, you'll win my eternal appreciation. It should be noted here, that at this point 3 pluasable explanations have been presented for all his problems. And yet the general concensus is that player 2 is cheating, becuase Salla can't figure out her build, and that she is the DMs G/F. I also want to make it clear that i have not dismissed the cheating throery, I just feel that we can not dismiss other possiblities first. Here's what I've gathered. 1. LOOKS like it should be a half-dragon. I heard the phrase 'Chaos Dragon' bandied about once or twice, and when it used its breath weapon (another indication of half-dragonry), it was apparently a random energy type. A breath weapon could a half-dragon, or it could be dragon shaman, of 4th level or higher, or it could be dragon born from the race of dragon, or it could a scorerer with the dragon hertiage feats from the CA. It could be a lot of things. To salla though it can only be the half dragon template applied incorrectly/ 2. Has a ridiculous strength (Either 22 or 24), and apparently has no Level Adjustment (loss of Hit Dice) since there was a wry snicker of superiority when our fighter mentioned his HP total, indicating that the creature surpassed it ... this also indicates a Con bonus, though either or both bonuses could be item Enhancement bonuses. First off strength 22, or 24 is not rediculous for 6th level. I'm playing in a game were the 4th level barabarian, could push his stregnth to 26+, and now at the lofty level of 5th, we could push it to 32 if we really wanted. Now sallas is also assuming, that a fighter should have the highest amount of hit points, simple becuase he is a fighter. He further assumes that becuase player has more hit points then the fighter, she there for has the same, or more hit dice then said fighter. I never once heard him consider the possiblity of a higher constatuition score. If it were a half-dragon, as assumed, then it would have +8 strength, and +2 con. I'd like to think that with a +8 to stregnth that someone should be able to get their str score higher then 22 or 24, but for the sake of agruement we'll say that it is indeed a 24. Now lets say that their con starts at a 18, and then gets a racial +2. (drawf would do that) then add the half-dragons +2 and the con score is 22. Thats a +6 per hit dice, even at 3 hit dice that is still +18 hit points. The half dragon template also increases the hit dice by one size. 3. Has healing abilities of indeterminate origin (race/class). The character sheet was the Favored Soul sheet, but it may have simply been what was available at the time rather than actually indicating the class, as evidenced by ... 4. Two attacks per round at 6th level, indicating a 1:1 Base Attack Bonus progression a la Fighter. The character didn't two-weapon fight or have a bow, so she isn't a Ranger ... this more or less leaves Paladin, which judging from actions and attitudes regarding various goings-on, either she isn't one or the DM is letting her be VERY loose with the idea of honor. The only weapon used was a Scimitar. Here we see that Salla has ruled out, ranger becuase only rangers use TWF, and rangers only use bows. At this point I suspect that Salla may be unwilling to give up his preconseved notions of what the classes, should and should not be able to do. I don't feel at this point it is fair to rule to rule out ranger, or TWF, as our single scemitar could still be infact a double scemitar. Also we see that the Salla has only considered two possible sources of a second attack. 1) Full base attack progression, or 2) TWF. fist of stone[/1] grants a second attack, as does the [i]haste spell. A sorcerer has access to both, and with the dragon hartiage feets, also a breath weapon. Fist of stone also provides a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, withc may also account for the high stregnth score. 5. Races of the Dragon was consulted at least once (a book I don't own), so I can't peruse that to see what's in it. They consulted a source book. The very fact they are looking up the rules that they are using indacates that cheating is unlikely. If they were cheating, why look up the rule? At this point i see that there are many posiiblities for what is going on. They include classes, races, variants, and spells. However the fact that there are several possiblities for what is happening, does not seem to occure to Salla, as he has alreqady dismissed them all becuase they are out side of his prejudgices regarding class roles. Now for what ****** me off: I'm a player, not the DM. My 'The DM's new girlfriend is either cheating or he's playing favorites' sense is going off, however. Right here we see that Salla is now unwilling to entertain any other throery other then his DM is intentially trying to screw him over. They must be cheating, and to say other wise is not going to be listened to. Additional point, I mentioned something about the steep Level Adjustment at one point, and he said that he tried to talk her out of it, which DOES indicate half-dragonry, and I strongly suspect that one or both of them know they're cheating/screwing up, since her character sheet was face-down all game. It may indactae that, or maybe he was successful in talking her out of it. Or maybe she has 3 character levels, and an LA +3. But the conclusion drawn by Salla is half-dragon template= cheating. I'm going to bring this up, and if it's not fixed, I'm walkin'. I don't play favorites with my wife when I GM for her (and vice versa ... if anything, we're a little rougher on one another in ensuring we avoid favoritism), this is just BS. In My Not So Humble Opinion. Again he has decided that his DM is playing favourites, but with no sapporting evedence, and he has decided to threaten an ultimatium, regardless of the fact there is a multitude of other possiblities. He is so convinced at this point that his DM is cheating, that even if showed a legal build he would probally insist on it being nberfed, or rebuilt. This situation has to 'fixed', not bothering to consider that there is nothing to 'fix. And lastly we get to this: (His third post here) Actually, no, I haven't, at least not since I got out of high school (hey, we're all munchkins in high school). [/b]I'm usually the one who reminds the other players (and DMs) of misremembered rules, AoOs and the like[/b]. I do not cheat, because there's no point in cheating in a game without a defined win condition beyond 'have fun'. And I can do something about it ... tell him to be fair or I walk. It'll get a bit messy since we do a DM rotation where just about everybody runs for everybody else, but hey. her we have evedence that Salla is also a rules lawyer. And most likely an anoying one at. This is were I formed my throery that the DM and player are hiding the character sheet from Salla becuase they do not want to have to explain everything two him, over and over again. While being called cheater, and munchkin, and the like. I can understand that, especially after having to agrue with the scrub in my group for 20 minutes, that yes, you may take multiple AoO with combat reflexes, and yes you provoke a seperate one from each threaten square you exsist. No reach doesn't add 5ft to your natural rewach, it doubles the squares you threaten, thus if you large with a pole arm you theaten 20ft, not 15ft, and you can't attack creatures within 10ft of you.It gets annoying really quickly. Further becuase salla is the one 'reminding' his groupo of the rules, even when he his not DM, it tells me that he has issues giving up controll when he is not the one behind the screen. I went through that myself. Salla just can't let go of the,"I would rule it like so..." Witch is why I feel he needs to see the other charscter sheet, and inspect it for cheating. And yes, DMs can cheat. DMs are not always right (see sig). The most important thing a DM can do, IMHO, is be fair and consistent. If player 1 can't do something (take a feat or class for which he is otherwise qualified, for instance), then neither can players 2-5, even if it would be 'cool' (a subjective term if ever there was one). This is fundamanetally wrong. Cheating is defined as breaking or going against the rules. However if you have the power to change the rules, as you see fit, then it is possible to break, or go against them as you can simple change them. No as for wheather or not the game is fair. Well personally I feel that Salla should have enough trust in his DM to balance, and run a fair game. If he does not , then he needs a new DM. I'm not disputing sallas right to a fiar game, I disputing sallas right to run the game from the players side of the screen. Salla is not the DM here, and wheather or not there have been errors, hous rulings, or fudgings is none of Sallas concern. Salla should trust in his DM, that he is being treated fairly, and if he string feels he is not, then he talk to the DM, not accuse the other players of cheating. Thus Ii formed my opion that salla is a scrub, and the other two players are sick of defending themselves from salla baseless accusations. Do feel they made the right discision in not showing Salla the chaarcter sheet? No, I think they should have shown Salla the character sheet, then told him to either sit down, and shut up, or take his exit. But I can understand that is difficult, I can see why they choose the corse they did. As for telling me to :censored: off. Funny how I was just as snide, and mean as I am to anyone else I feel is being dolt, but this time I get taking to task on it. Why? Not for flaming someone, heck I do that all the time. I get blasted on this one becuase I dared to go against the groups consenus. Well like I said I call it as i see it, and in this case I saw something different then everyone else. Get over it.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 01:21 PM	Sad story. ever. Your DM is horrible and it´s obvous that this hal-giant has cheated. Tell your DM that he is the JUDGE. He must know the rules, if he doens´t, it´s not allowed. Sometimens, once in your life (It happened with me), you´re capable of rolling awesome stats. Like 18, 16, 16, 17, 13, 12 or something. But that´s once in your life. And that happens in front of everybody. This guy that plays with the half-giant is cheating. FACT. I beg to differ. The Half gaint gives some imperisve ability ajustmenst, witch combined with decent rolling could account for the high scores. Next the psychic warroir gives a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, and 5th level. Plus a feat for first level, and third level, gives us 5 feats. And lastly Ambedextarity was folded into two weapon fighting with 3.5. Thus he doesn't have to take ambidexatrity for TWF. Also becuase of the half-gaints large stature the half gaint could be wielding two short sowrds made for his size his. Becuase they are large short swords they would deal a d8, and not a d6 damage. With their crit range of 19-20/X2, and a d8 damge, they would be very simmiliar to long swords. At 5th level with his base attack of +4, stregnth modifeir of +5, and weapon focus short sword and -2 for using TWF, he would have two attacks at +8. And lets us not forget that he also has psionic powers to further boost his combat out put. Thus we have a 5th level half-gaint psychic warroir, with 5 feats, TWFing with short swords, and psionic buffs. For a total of ECL 6. Not outrageouse in the least. I will however say that it does suck that the other melee character is being out shinned. I personal would allow him to make a new chaarcter, but that is a personal call on behalf of the DM, and not a writen rule anywere.
Licínio Miranda 11-06-06, 02:46 PM	I beg to differ. The Half gaint gives some imperisve ability ajustmenst, witch combined with decent rolling could account for the high scores. Next the psychic warroir gives a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, and 5th level. Plus a feat for first level, and third level, gives us 5 feats. And lastly Ambedextarity was folded into two weapon fighting with 3.5. Thus he doesn't have to take ambidexatrity for TWF. Also becuase of the half-gaints large stature the half gaint could be wielding two short sowrds made for his size his. Becuase they are large short swords they would deal a d8, and not a d6 damage. With their crit range of 19-20/X2, and a d8 damge, they would be very simmiliar to long swords. At 5th level with his base attack of +4, stregnth modifeir of +5, and weapon focus short sword and -2 for using TWF, he would have two attacks at +8. And lets us not forget that he also has psionic powers to further boost his combat out put. Thus we have a 5th level half-gaint psychic warroir, with 5 feats, TWFing with short swords, and psionic buffs. For a total of ECL 6. Not outrageouse in the least. I will however say that it does suck that the other melee character is being out shinned. I personal would allow him to make a new chaarcter, but that is a personal call on behalf of the DM, and not a writen rule anywere. Read what the guy said before you write something, please. He said that the Half-Giant has: 1) Has NO level adjustment (the player "forgot" about it) 2) He fights with two longswords (he said longswrods, not short). 3) Has very high stats, but NO ONE saw the player rolling them. 4) It has NO penalty fighting with two weapons. You could say that it was fighting with two shortswords and get that feat "oversized blah blah" from Complete Adventurer. But he said that the player of the half-giant CONVINCED the master that his character wouldn´t get a penalty. So he got for free, no feats on it. 5) Although the characters started with only 100 gp (I think that´s what he said), the half-giant had items that cost much more than that. If that´s not cheating, dude, I don´t want to see the games that YOU play. :)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 03:26 PM	Read what the guy said before you write something, please. He said that the Half-Giant has: 1) Has NO level adjustment (the player "forgot" about it) Already covered in in my post. The half gaint is an EL 6. So he is one level higher then the other player. Oh-Nooos the world is about to end! 2) He fights with two longswords (he said longswrods, not short). A long sowrd: does a d8 slashing damge, crits 19-20/X2 A large short sword: Does a d8 slashing damage, crits 19-20/X2 I don't know about you, but I'm having trouble spotting the difference. Other then the name of course. And for the record, the half-gaint can use large short easily becuase of his large stature. 3) Has very high stats, but NO ONE saw the player rolling them. Now that you mention it, his scores are a little fishy, to have his dex as high as it is, he would have had to roll a 20. Or he could have an item of Dex boost +X, not uncommon in a high magic campaign. Other then that aren't that unreasonable. I've seen higher. 4) It has NO penalty fighting with two weapons. You could say that it was fighting with two shortswords and get that feat "oversized blah blah" from Complete Adventurer. But he said that the player of the half-giant CONVINCED the master that his character wouldn´t get a penalty. So he got for free, no feats on it. Given his str score, and his base attack bonus, his attacks should be +9. The poster stated they were +8, that tells m that he is taking the penalty, and has either weapon focus, or master + weapons. perhaps the poster is referring to the minus 4 penalty that he feels the halg-giant should have, becuase he doesn't have ambidextarity. But that went out with the introduction of 3.5. 5) Although the characters started with only 100 gp (I think that´s what he said), the half-giant had items that cost much more than that. he is also a 6th level character, his starting gold should be 13,000gp. But starting gold doesn't matter...its his level of items compared to the rest of his parties that matters. We do not have that information. If that´s not cheating, dude, I don´t want to see the games that YOU play. :) Other then the questionable Dex, I see nothing here that isn't possible with an ECL 6 half-gaint, psychic warrior. Perhaps before we call something cheating, or favouritism, or what have you, we look at things critically. just becuase we do not know all of the rules, does not mean they aren't their. Just becuase we don't understand something does not make wrong, or cheating.
pukunui 11-06-06, 03:37 PM	Wow ... I am so lucky to have a group whose individual members like and trust each other enough that not only would we not consider cheating but it has also never occurred to us that asking to see each other's sheets for whatever reason might be construed as impolite. Trust is undoubtedly the most important thing for any d&d group. I realize, though, that it's harder to have trust when you're playing with strangers. My group consists of my brother-in-law, my sister-in-law, her boyfriend, and me, so I'm lucky in that respect. Oh, yeah ... respect. That's another important one too. The way I see it is: your character sheet should be open to public scrutiny. There are only two reasons someone wouldn't want you to look at their sheet: 1) they're cheating and don't want you to know or 2) they've put some sort of secret RP info on their sheet and don't want you to see it. With regards to #2, one example is the halfling beguiler in my group is using an alias and the other characters don't know his real name, so the player doesn't want the other players to know it either (but he's told me what it is). Now, he's put his character's real name on his character sheet, but I think that sort of information should go on a separate "background/history" sheet. Salla: when I was in college, I learned a bit about conflict resolution. I think you should approach your DM outside of the game and tell him how you're feeling. Don't accuse him of favoritism or of cheating or anything. Just tell him: "I feel like there's something not quite right about your GF's character. Can you assure me that it's all perfectly legit?" On a separate occasion, you might want to tell him: "When you get all cosy with your GF during the session, it makes the other players and me uncomfortable. Do you think you could tone it down or cease all together?" I actually have the opposite problem in my group -- the BF/GF team bicker a lot and so I make them sit as far apart from each other as possible. TPK: You keep saying that Salla has not presented any evidence of cheating -- but I'd say the fact that no one in the group seems to know what the GF's character even looks like is pretty fishy. Even if you don't want other players in your group to know your PC's stats and such, you should still be giving them a description of your character and a sense of what s/he can do. The fact that she keeps her character sheet facedown the entire game would make me suspicious, too -- but if it doesn't make you suspicious, that's fine.
DarkNick 11-06-06, 03:44 PM	Do you know what her character looks like? What her race is? I know elf was mentioned somewhere but see if you can get her to descrbe what she looks like. If all else fails at least you should know what she looks like. That might give you some more clues.
unusualsuspect 11-06-06, 03:54 PM	1. a 5th level psychic warrior's bab would be 3. I don't know if that was a type, TPK, and I agree with pretty much everything else you've said, but we don't want you accused to cheating and all the evil that it is associated with... :rolleyes: 2. A facedown character sheet is definitely suspicious, unless the person has an incredible memory, or has no life. Being the latter, I don't usually have to refer to my character sheet much when I'm playing... 3. A description HAS been given for the OP's problematic character... it looks like it is a half-dragon. Hence the numerous posts regarding Dragon Shamans, Half-Dragon LAs, the Dragonborn, Draconic, etc.
starfire311 11-06-06, 03:54 PM	I beg to differ. and you would be wrong The Half gaint gives some imperisve ability ajustmenst, witch combined with decent rolling could account for the high scores. Next the psychic warroir gives a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, and 5th level. Plus a feat for first level, and third level, gives us 5 feats. And lastly Ambedextarity was folded into two weapon fighting with 3.5. Thus he doesn't have to take ambidexatrity for TWF. Also becuase of the half-gaints large stature the half gaint could be wielding two short sowrds made for his size his. Becuase they are large short swords they would deal a d8, and not a d6 damage. With their crit range of 19-20/X2, and a d8 damge, they would be very simmiliar to long swords. At 5th level with his base attack of +4, stregnth modifeir of +5, and weapon focus short sword and -2 for using TWF, he would have two attacks at +8. And lets us not forget that he also has psionic powers to further boost his combat out put. Thus we have a 5th level half-gaint psychic warroir, with 5 feats, TWFing with short swords, and psionic buffs. For a total of ECL 6. Not outrageouse in the least. I will however say that it does suck that the other melee character is being out shinned. I personal would allow him to make a new chaarcter, but that is a personal call on behalf of the DM, and not a writen rule anywere. yep ECL 6 in a 5th level party, Half-giant is pretty good when you ignore LA.
ChaoticGood 11-06-06, 03:55 PM	I just did a quick search to make certain, but you are the first person to even mention elves in this entire thread, which means Orc Dragonborn is still in play. Sorry, X-Codes, I misunderstood this quote: She expressly stated her STR score (as another 'ha-ha', in the style of Nelson of the Simpsons, at the 18 STR elven fighter), though I can't remember if she said 22 or 24, it was definitely one of those. My bad. The fact the player consulted Races of the Dragon does actually make Dragonborn look like a valid option here. Here we see that Salla has ruled out, ranger becuase only rangers use TWF, and rangers only use bows. At this point I suspect that Salla may be unwilling to give up his preconseved notions of what the classes, should and should not be able to do. I don't feel at this point it is fair to rule to rule out ranger, or TWF, as our single scemitar could still be infact a double scemitar. Also we see that the Salla has only considered two possible sources of a second attack. 1) Full base attack progression, or 2) TWF. [i]fist of stone[/1] grants a second attack, as does the haste spell. A sorcerer has access to both, and with the dragon hartiage feets, also a breath weapon. Fist of stone also provides a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, withc may also account for the high stregnth score. I have to point out two holes in this particular statement. While you are correct that not only Rangers use TWF, and not all Rangers use bows, the fact remains that it is highly uncommon to witness a Ranger that doesn't use one or the other, because, "Oh, yeah!" It's a class feature. Don't get me wrong, I've built unarmored Clerics and Paladins who focused on unarmed combat, jsut to see if it could be done. But truth be told, characters who don't make use of their class features, especially combat-oriented ones, are very rarely optimal in combat, and that doesn't seem to be the case here. Ergo, it's fair to rule out Ranger if neither of the Ranger's hallmarks are present and the character is still a more effective combatant than the rest of the party. As for your alternate explanations for the high Strength and extra attack, the majority of your solutions are temporary (haste, fist of stone, rage for that "super-strength" Barbarian you mentioned), whereas the OP seems to be saying that these are the characters' base attributes. Moreover, even if such effects are the source of the character's high Strength and extra attack, the human race has not yet, to my knowledge, developed telepathy as a racial attribute. Thus, the casting of such spells still needs to be announced at the gaming table. Granted, the OP may be incorrect about some of his assumptions, but you can't assume he is in order to throw out the "most likely" explanation. Based on the information presented, it is fair to assume that something is off, the DM and the player both know it, and they are keeping a secret from the other players. Personally, I believe the girlfriend may actually be running a unique NPC as a story-twist, but if that chararacter is outshining the players and making them feel like they may as well sit back and let her do everything, then there is still a problem with the way the DM is handling the game. Smirking at the players for having lower stats than your munchkinized NPC is just plain asinine. Coming clean about the fact that she is playing a unique NPC would immediately dismiss all the charges of favoritism and cheating. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all of your assumptions are correct, and none of it had to be shared at the table because Salla is actually playing D&D with telepathic mole-people wearing human-suits over their grimy, matted, color-changing fur. Also, they have X-ray vision that lets them keep their character sheets face-down to confuse the "ape-boy." Funny how I was just as snide, and mean as I am to anyone else I feel is being dolt, but this time I get taking to task on it. Why? Not for flaming someone, heck I do that all the time. I get blasted on this one becuase I dared to go against the groups consenus. Well like I said I call it as i see it, and in this case I saw something different then everyone else. Get over it. Oh, TPK... you're such a martyr! :P
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 04:15 PM	Form the top. Psychic warroir baB being +3 and not +4. Oops my bad. a ECL 6th in a 5th level party = cheating. Not really, In my group, I and another player are both 5th level, and the third player, the DM's sister, is 6th. Does that mean that the DM, and the player are automatically cheating, with each other to screw me and the other player over? Should I get the torches, and the pitch forks? Or did my character, and the other players character just die once, and the sister get some bonus XP, possible for role play reasons? The character in the OPs group is cheating: My point isn'tt hat she isn't cheating, its that we can't assume that. I believe I stated very clearly that her cheating is a possiblity. However not the only possiblity, and should be assumed as the most likely cuase. Fact is there are many ways to explain what is happening here. What makes me wonder is why hasn't Salla camme back, and told what happen when he confornted the DM. But I'll let others draw their own conclusions. Like we have two throeries, both have merits. 1) Player 2 in Sallas group is cheating. Her and her DM B/F are dirty bastards, and deserve to rot in hell, for trying to screw over Sallas game. 2) Salla is a scrub who can not anyones else way the play D&D . If he can't think of how it can be down, it is cheating, and he refuses to listen to anyone else. Further more, he may be having trouble adjusting to being a player, and still think he has the same responciblity, and controll over the game as his DM. Me I'm not dismissing either throery, just presenting agruements in favour of the one less sapported. My second point is that instead of assuming cheating, just becuase someone types up a sob story. We look at the facts, and don't assume anything! Geesh! Why does everything have to be so black and white?
ChaoticGood 11-06-06, 04:27 PM	You're forgetting MY theory, which is that the player is playing a DM-generated NPC whose stats must be "secret" due to an upcoming plot-twist. The way this character is being handled has aroused justifiable, but not necessarily provable suspicions of cheating, and needs to be addressed by the DM with more than a smug smirk.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 04:32 PM	You're forgetting MY theory, which is that the player is playing a DM-generated NPC whose stats must be "secret" due to an upcoming plot-twist. The way this character is being handled has aroused justifiable, but not necessarily provable suspicions of cheating, and needs to be addressed by the DM with more than a smug smirk. Perfectly valid theory, and it fits the facts. The only question is though, how does the DM address it other by saying, "trust me."
pukunui 11-06-06, 04:44 PM	Perfectly valid theory, and it fits the facts. The only question is though, how does the DM address it other by saying, "trust me." By telling his GF not to rub her character's superiority in the faces of his regular players? By calling her on the whole snickering thing instead of just smirking himself or whatever it was he did/didn't do? The way Salla puts it, there's definitely an element of us (the DM and his GF) vs. them (the other players) going on in his group. Could just be that he's biased, but what he tells us is all we've really got to go on ... p.s. happy birthday in advance, TPK, in case I don't remember on the day. Here's a :gift: and welcome to the quarter-century club! :cheer:
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-06-06, 05:03 PM	p.s. happy birthday in advance, TPK, in case I don't remember on the day. Here's a :gift: and welcome to the quarter-century club! :cheer: How did you know my age, and birthday....? should I be afraid, now? And thank you
pukunui 11-06-06, 05:05 PM	How did you know my age, and birthday....? should I be afraid, now? And thank you Yes, be afraid! Be very afraid!!! :evillaugh As for how I know everything about you, I have my sources ... *cough* I looked at your public profile *cough*
Teron Gorefiend 11-06-06, 06:51 PM	Or they sick of agrueing and explaining themselves to the ape-boy, and just want to skip it by keeping him in the dark. What if the DM of this group came on here and posted: "I have this player in my group, who refuses to learn the rules, but constantly interupts play to agrue about them. He won't look in any of the source books I allow. But then insists on inspecting other poeples character sheets to make sure they fit what he rthinks is the rules. Aren't I the DM? Should I have final say on what I allow in my game? Like this one time, one of my players was playing a fighter/barbarian, with TWF, and used a bastard sword, and short sword. He accused her of being a munchkin becuase only rangers may TWF. The other time, another player played a ranger that was from the city. He preferred to use daggers, and quick draw with his TWF. Again the player agrued with him for 20 minutes that rangers can only use a bow, or short swords. Then there was the time my G/F wanted to play a elvin cleric, but this player insisted she had to were armour, and could only heal other party members, namely his fighter. Now my G/F decided that she wants to play a pladin of freedom dragonborn wild elf. She rolled well with her stats, and took improved toughness, to make up for the hit to con. Her stregth is decent, and she is using an ansestral weapon. (family heirloom). She also bought guantlets of orger power with her starting gold. Anyways becuase she is dragon born she gets a breath weapon, and becuase she is a paladin she can cast cure light wounds. She also has base attack +6/+1, and has lay on hands. But she doesn't summon her mount, no need. She was afraid that when this player inspected her character sheet he would see the C/G alignment, and the dragon born race, and accuse he and myself of cheating. We just don't think he would be able to get over the C/G paladin, nor do we think he'll be able to understand that my g/f is not a half-dragon. I told her to just play with her sheet face down, and not give him the oppertunity to inspect it, and call he a twink. But now he is insisting that I am cheating for her, and that she is a half-dragon pun-pun or something. He just won't let it go, and I don't know to do. pleas help, he's not the DM but he thinks he is!" What advice would you give him then? Again, you're assuming that Salla is retarded, while everyone else thinks, crazily enough, that Salla knows more about the game he's playing in than you do. Given your unprovoked and unrelenting insults, I'm just going to go ahead and report this thread. Salla, I hope you're satisfied with the answers you got. Again, I encourage you to just go ahead and ask the DM and/or his girlfriend about it. Tell them that the perceived situation is reducing your enjoyment of the game, and that you'll walk if they can't convince you that there's no favouritism going on.
Jell_Moo 11-06-06, 08:09 PM	Form the top. Psychic warroir baB being +3 and not +4. Oops my bad. a ECL 6th in a 5th level party = cheating. Not really, In my group, I and another player are both 5th level, and the third player, the DM's sister, is 6th. Does that mean that the DM, and the player are automatically cheating, with each other to screw me and the other player over? Should I get the torches, and the pitch forks? Or did my character, and the other players character just die once, and the sister get some bonus XP, possible for role play reasons? That is of course a definite and fine possibility. A character loses a level, a character dies, different rates of XP gain, these are all perfect examples of why characters in the same party would be at different character levels. However, that being said, the particular situation at hand seems to be more along the lines of: Ok guys, here's the info for the new campaign. Greg, Peter and Francois all start out at ECL 5, while Angelina gets to start out at ECL 6. In this case, I personally find it uncool. I like an even playing field in this regard. A LA+1 race handed out for free doesn't seem that big a deal, but it is an unfair imbalance. 1 character should not have such a unique advantage over other characters. (Now I'm not saying that this is exactly the case in the example of the PsyWar described, just voicing my opinion on the entire premise). The character in the OPs group is cheating: My point isn'tt hat she isn't cheating, its that we can't assume that. I believe I stated very clearly that her cheating is a possiblity. However not the only possiblity, and should be assumed as the most likely cuase. Fact is there are many ways to explain what is happening here. What makes me wonder is why hasn't Salla camme back, and told what happen when he confornted the DM. But I'll let others draw their own conclusions. Agreed. For me, the most important part of the thread isn't the situation itself, rather it's offering potential advice to those who may be in this particular situation. Even if the character that the OP describes is in fact not cheating, offering insight in how to deal with the possibility is certainly useful. Like we have two throeries, both have merits. 1) Player 2 in Sallas group is cheating. Her and her DM B/F are dirty bastards, and deserve to rot in hell, for trying to screw over Sallas game. Um... Not exactly how I'd phrase it, but sure. 2) Salla is a scrub who can not anyones else way the play D&D . If he can't think of how it can be down, it is cheating, and he refuses to listen to anyone else. Further more, he may be having trouble adjusting to being a player, and still think he has the same responciblity, and controll over the game as his DM. Name calling aside, the premise that the player is not cheating is also an equally strong possibility. Many people have put forth possible ways to acheive what Salla has described the character as having done. Therefore it is certainly possible that the character is legitimate. That being said, I disagree with the notion that a player has less "say" in how a game is run then the DM does. If a player does not like how things are done in a game, they most certainly have the right to voice their opinion. If they feel strongly enough that they cannot enjoy the game as it is run, they can choose not to play. I personally find the notion that the DM is an all powerful, all knowing figure with absolute control over everything and none dare judge him to be archaic and silly. Me I'm not dismissing either throery, just presenting agruements in favour of the one less sapported. My second point is that instead of assuming cheating, just becuase someone types up a sob story. We look at the facts, and don't assume anything! Geesh! Why does everything have to be so black and white? I would also like to offer a third possibility as to what is happening. The DM has made an error in interpretting how a rule, or multiple rules in fact work. Perhaps the player in question is in fact not intentionally cheating, but rather that an error has been made thus making her character "better" than it should be. Given the sheer number of supplements available now, and how many rules, classes and the like now exist, it is very difficult for one person to master and know them all.
Manic Man 11-06-06, 08:42 PM	However, that being said, the particular situation at hand seems to be more along the lines of: Ok guys, here's the info for the new campaign. Greg, Peter and Francois all start out at ECL 5, while Angelina gets to start out at ECL 6. This is one of the more common ones. If a level higher than the rest is fine for the DM's bestest friend or whatever, why not make it 2 levels, or maybe 10. Let everyone start at level 5 but the DM's pet can start at 15. 1 level is favoratism (sp), same as 10 to the neutral party. If the character came in after the campign started, then fine. Depending on the DM's campaign, it may be a fixed level, 1 level diff, no level diff or whatever. When its everybody starting the campaign at the same time, then there is no excuse
Cael 11-06-06, 08:57 PM	I don't know if this has been said. I only read the first page: Half-Dragons get natural attacks. If the lady is using a scimitar and a shield, she still have a bite attack. There is your two attacks right there. Give her Paladin levels and bang, healing with a touch. Or a Half-Dragon Druid. Or a Half-Dragon Elf Cleric. Or a Half Dragon Ranger. Half-Dragons also get bonuses to Con and a massive one to Strength. There is your 20+ Strength and ability to have lots of hit points. A "wry snicker of superiority" is your opinion. Until that is established as fact, I will ignore that.
WizO_Cat 11-06-06, 10:41 PM	Ok, just a reminder to keep the posts to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. This includes using guests as examples for point. Let's not refer to other guests and thus they won't havea reason for taking it personally. Otherwise, it is considered Baiting and will be addressed accordingly. Thank you.
Jenrock 11-06-06, 10:41 PM	As far as I can tell, here is the core of the matter. Salla is not having fun. Salla's fellow players (with the exception of the DM's girlfriend) are not having fun. D&D is a GAME. The purpose of playing a GAME is to have fun. When D&D stops being fun, there is no longer any point in playing. From what I can see, Salla is friends with everyone in his group, so he doesn't want to be a jerk and just walk out, but no one is having fun, so something needs to be done. My advice is to simply talk with DM, and request (don't DEMAND, that's just not polite) to see the character sheet. Its a piece of paper with words on it, and as such, is less important than the overall fun of the group. If she doesn't want you to look at it, be naive and assume its because she has some background-related secrets on it, and ask her to transpose her stats on a different paper. If nothing else, tell your DM about your concerns and take him to this thread and show him that you have been going about this discreetly and that you don't want to cause a major disturbance. Just remember, its only a GAME, and that kindness (which seems to be a quality you possess in abundance, Salla) can greatly aid you in maintaing the fun of the GAME.
ChaoticGood 11-07-06, 02:57 AM	Unless I'm right about this character being an NPC, all Salla really needs to know is her race/class combo. At that point, it should be clear whether or not most of these statistics are or are not possible. And honestly, there's really no reason for such basic information to ever be a secret from your fellow party members. "Hi. I want to join your party." "Um... I can't see you." "That's because I am hiding behind a thick veil of secrecy in order to obscure my basic racial features from your view. Can I join your party?" "Um... We don't even know what you look like..." "What does that matter? Are you going to make your decision on how I look? Will you reject me if I'm not pretty enough for you?" "No! It's not that at all! It's just that... OK, well... Um... How about you tell us who you are and what you do for a living?" "Whoa, what's with all the questions, pal? I just want to become an integral part of your bonded party of men and women, who must put their very lives in one another's hands every single day just to survive. I don't see why you need to know my name and all that! Just take me with you!" "How about this: What skills do you bring to our band of adventurers?" "What skills do YOU bring to your band of adventurers?" "Well, as the Rogue, I can pick locks, find and disable traps, and am friendly enough to be the party's spokesman in most situations. And since I'm a Halfling, I can also fit into small spaces to reach ares the rest of the party can't!" "Well good for you." "OK, so... your turn. What do have to offer us?" "That's none of your business. You'll just have to trust me and see what happens later." "Yeah... about that? I don't think its worth the effort to wait until 'later.' You have some major trust issues, lady... er... man... er... I don't suppose it would do any good to ask if you are male or female, would it? You have a nice life, though. Buh-bye!" Basically what I'm saying is, every party member has a right to know the physical description of the other party members and what role they serve in the party... in game terms: Race and Class. That much is basic, obvious information that is well within the expectations of "men and women who put their very lives in one another's hands every single day every single day just to survive."
Grogmir 11-07-06, 04:08 AM	Cheers for all the advice lads. (And ladys!) Well, youv’e shown me up to be the moaning stat envied freak that I am! It seems that his build was guinuine if a bit tweaked – rather than all out cheating. I guess I’m just a stickler for the rules, while others see it more as ‘guidelines’. Side note - I thought if he had a LA+1 he should therefore be only a level 4 Psyonic Warrior as we are all level 5? (All started at lvl 4, experience points are equal at ~ 11 thousand) Regards to see other peoples sheets. I don’t have a problem with it. However we have one character (playing a shady underworld type) that specifically asked us not to look and also doesn’t answer indepth questions about is PC. In this situation I have no problem with not being allowed to see his sheet. Grogmir
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-07-06, 08:56 AM	Basically what I'm saying is, every party member has a right to know the physical description of the other party members and what role they serve in the party... in game terms: Race and Class. That much is basic, obvious information that is well within the expectations of "men and women who put their very lives in one another's hands every single day every single day just to survive." And if a player is playing a changling? Asking them if they are man or female won't help you becuase they can change that. Same goes for race. As for class, you don't really need to to know. In an RP sense, the changling could lie. "What do you do for a living." Changling,"I'm a blacksmith." As a player of a changling, I can understand the want not to show everyone my character sheet. Maybe, I'm playing a charcter that is hiding the fact that it is a changling. Or maybe I revelle in the abiltiy being able to disguise myself, and assume any persona I need. And having Grok the half-witted barbarain following me around, even when I am disguised as a noble schoolar, isn't cool.
DarknessEternal 11-07-06, 10:53 AM	"What do you do for a living." Changling,"I'm a blacksmith." Then have fun slaving away in town. You're not an adventurer.
ChaoticGood 11-07-06, 12:34 PM	I have a Changeling in my party right now, as a matter of fact. In game, he kept his racial identity a secret until the second session, but there is simply no reason to do so out of game. Any decent group of players will roleplay their surprise at finding out for the first time... There's no reason to make a deal of it. And even if you are playing a Changeling who wants to keep his racial identity a secret, there's no reason not to give a physical description. The only difference is that the physical description just changes every now and then... and that needs to be announced at the table. The only reason I can come up with for hiding your Changeling heritage from the other players is if you are intentionally planning on screwing your party over later. In that case, I'm pretty sure nobody wants to play with you, anyway. As for "what you do," you'll notice that I said: "every party member has a right to know the physical description of the other party members and what role they serve in the party." Ergo, DarknessEternal is quite right that an answer of "I'm a blacksmith" will likely get you left in town. (Unless the party is entirely horseback and has need of someone to shoe their mounts - and even then, you should be getting a hireling for that sort of thing, not an adventurer.) Can you lie about your party role? Sure. But don't avoid the question entirely, and prepare to deal with the consequences. If you say, "I'm a priest of Pelor," and the party runs into a horde of zombies later, you'd better have some way to turn them or a very VERY good Bluff check to explain why you can't.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-07-06, 01:05 PM	o rlly? What about, "I'm a blacksmith" ooc: A fighter with ranks in craft arms and armour, and profession smithy. The character isn't a 'fighter' as he does not 'fight' for a living. And then,"I'm a priest of palor." Could be cleric, or could be NPC class adept. Or my favourite,"I'm a professor." Could be an expert, or it could that said professor teaches advanced evokation at the school of high arcana, and is in fact a 21st level wizard specializied as an evoker. My point stil is: If you do not trust the poeple you are with enough, that you must inspect their charcter sheets. Then you need no other reason then that, to not play with them. A player is not the DM, and as such as no authority, nor right of any kind to demand to inspect anyone character sheet. They may request it, but if they are told to bugger off, then they should do just that.
DarknessEternal 11-07-06, 01:43 PM	o rlly? I'm sorry, I only speak and read English.
starfire311 11-07-06, 02:00 PM	I'm sorry, I only speak and read English. Orly I feel sorry for you if you were unable to comprehend what he wrote. But I doubt that is the case, odds are you just chose this oppurtunity to try to make you feel better by insulting someones writing, congrats.
High Octane 11-07-06, 03:55 PM	I keep saying there is nothing wrong with asking to see another players character sheet. If shes bragging about her character, you have every right to know how she did it! Its as much a "Wow, nice job, how did you do it?" sort of admiration if it is legal, and if it isnt, shes cheating. Ask as if you honestly are wondering. Dont act suspicious.
Shaftiel 11-07-06, 04:59 PM	Not to divert too much but the whole "you should be able to look at the character sheet" thing is very strange to me. There's only ONE campaign I play in where I share my sheet, and that's a LG party where the characters have all known each other for years and I'm a min/maxed caster; every now and then ppl want to look over my spell list. In the rest of them forget it. I mean, IMO, it takes away from the RP aspect of the game. I don't even know what the stats of my RL family members are; why would I know in game? But the RP aspect also provides the solution, as ChaoticGood described. I wouldn't hang out with someone who was evasive, obnoxious, and couldn't explain why they wanted to hang out with me in real life, and I'm not even trusting them to watch my back in certain death scenarios. Why would your character hang out with them? Best case scenario they're a jerk, worst-case scenario they're an assassin, demon in human form, or other thing planted in your group. Heck, even if they're just an obnoxious paladin, if they really do outclass the other members of your group why are they slumming with you instead of hanging with their peers? Did they kill someone, steal something, fall asleep on guard duty, or otherwise get ostracized or are they just lazy? In any case this is all too much to worry about and entirely unneccesary... I'd just tell the character that they couldn't adventure with us, sorry, but best of luck to them. -Shaftiel
Always-Late 11-07-06, 05:04 PM	I have a Changeling in my party right now, as a matter of fact. In game, he kept his racial identity a secret until the second session, but there is simply no reason to do so out of game. Any decent group of players will roleplay their surprise at finding out for the first time... There's no reason to make a deal of it. And even if you are playing a Changeling who wants to keep his racial identity a secret, there's no reason not to give a physical description. The only difference is that the physical description just changes every now and then... and that needs to be announced at the table. The only reason I can come up with for hiding your Changeling heritage from the other players is if you are intentionally planning on screwing your party over later.Or maybe you think it'd be fun for other players, instead of roleplaying surprise, to actually be surprised. I mean, why doesn't the DM reveal that what they think is a friendly local sorceror is actually a changeling with a job to keep tabs on them? They can always roleplay their surprise.
Neofish 11-07-06, 05:40 PM	Salla, if your fighter has a devil-may-care atitude, then start showing it in combat. Starting charging before that other players acts, start bullrushing the enemies away from her, DO SOMETHING. I love how players often expect the DM to spoon feed them everything. "Oh look, party fighter, this monster is just for you, and look, party cleric, undead for you". Bleh. The game is what you make it, maybe she is already doing that, and maybe you should to...