Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrGrass 08-01-06, 04:17 PM	I think this will mostly end up being a rant, but I also want to get some outside perspective to make sure I'm not just being a stubborn mule. A little background first. The DM has run a few campaigns so I've seen his style before. He goes off on tangents very easily. Usually if the players ask a question the DM's first response is a joke or some sort of attack that he roles dice for but once it's done he says he was just fooling around. This has really irked me because it inhibits the game, but I've tried to press through. He also has always had an NPC named Bane. Bane is a shifter that pretty much leads the party. He's also the one that deals the most damage. In other words, bane is a DMPC. So we're starting a new campaign, though I apparently missed one session because the rest of the party was already in this tower. Since I'm trying to build up experience playing all the different classes I decided to try playing a paladin, which I'd never done before. Today we fought and vanquished a vampire and went up the next level in the tower. We searched around the level and discovered an illusuory wall. Bane's psuedodragon pet flew in and came back out, indicating the room was clear (though after the DM joked that it came out as a skeleton). We all walked in to find a "brightly lit room". One of the other players cast detect magic and sensed magic. What happened next was about like this. DM: Detect Evil? Me: What does the room look like? DM: Just do Detect Evil. Me: I want to know what the room looks like before I decide to Detect Evil. Another player: Why are you being stingy with an ability you can use for free? Me: Well I'll only use it if I have a reason too. If the room is just empty I probably won't use detect evil. If it looks like a library with bookshelves or something I'll probably use it. DM: Bane comes over, sticks his hand up your butt, and uses you like a puppet. Just use Detect Evil. Me: Just tell me what the room looks like before I do. At this point the DM started to make fun of me for getting angry. I got fed up, packed up my things, and left. On my way out I heard one of the players ask what the room looked like and the DM told him to "Make a Spot check, that's all you had to do." I just want to make sure I didn't overreact. I try to have fun and joke around when playing D&D, but the DM's constant fooling around and faking me out just had me on edge. And when he put me through all of that junk when I tried to ask what a room looked like it just snapped the last nerve I had. Was I justified or am I just being a baby?
Sulaco 08-01-06, 05:03 PM	You don't need a spot check to see what a room looks like. The DM is an idiot.
Stumm_Dolch 08-01-06, 05:04 PM	I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it went just as you say. Your DM sounds like a bit of a tool. I think you did the right thing because no matter what you weren't going to have a good time the rest of the night. I would suggest you show up for the next session. Perhaps try to get some alone time with the DM before the game and tell him what's bothering you but he's not gonna change... he may lighten up on you a little bit but, but he's the type that must railroad the party. Telling a player to Detect Evil? OMFG that is the last thing I'm gonna tell my Paladin to do. I jump for joy if he forgets to do it and my encounter actually surprises the players. With his style you may aswell sit down at the table and say Ok DM, what happened in tonight's adventure?
Hospitaller 08-01-06, 05:13 PM	Was I justified or am I just being a baby? Is your DM very new to the game? It might explain his behavior if, you know, it was maybe his second session and he's all of twelve years old. If not, then you're entirely justified. It's DMs like this that end up ruining the hobby for a lot of newer players, shamefully.
DarknessEternal 08-01-06, 05:19 PM	Never play in a game with a DM using a DMPC unless you're doing some kind of socialogical experiment. No entertainment can come of it.
Toloran 08-01-06, 06:10 PM	Never play in a game with a DM using a DMPC unless you're doing some kind of socialogical experiment. No entertainment can come of it. DMPCs aren't ALWAYS bad but it is often too tempting for a DM to make their PC overshadow the other PCs. In any case, you did the right thing leaving that game. That DM is either A) New or B) A jerk (or perhaps even both). DMs (both new and experienced) often expect players to do something and when they don't they get testy. Like expecting your players to help some NPC and then they instead kill it (on purpose). However, your DM seems to have just been trying to be a smart*****. As someone else said, you don't have to make a spot check just to see what a room looks like. Spot checks are for noticing invisible creatures, traps, hidden enemies, or anything that one wouldn't generally notice on a casual glance about a room (however, my group often jokes about how when rolling a natural 1 on a spot check means you've basically gone blind briefly). Just a casual glance about a room wouldn't need a spot check.
MrGrass 08-01-06, 06:13 PM	He's older than I am (I'm 24). He's pretty experienced. He knows the rules really well but it's like when he's running a campaign EVERYTHING is a joke. There are times where he does something that seems really strange and we ask if he's serious. He says yes and once we start writing down damage we're taking he says he's kidding :confused: . I wouldn't mind if that was something that happened now and then, but he does it ALL THE TIME!!! :banghead:
Toloran 08-01-06, 06:19 PM	He's older than I am (I'm 24). He's pretty experienced. He knows the rules really well but it's like when he's running a campaign EVERYTHING is a joke. There are times where he does something that seems really strange and we ask if he's serious. He says yes and once we start writing down damage we're taking he says he's kidding :confused: . I wouldn't mind if that was something that happened now and then, but he does it ALL THE TIME!!! :banghead: Oh, if thats the case he just has maturity issues and needs to grow up.
Hospitaller 08-01-06, 06:31 PM	He's older than I am (I'm 24). He's pretty experienced. He knows the rules really well but it's like when he's running a campaign EVERYTHING is a joke. There are times where he does something that seems really strange and we ask if he's serious. He says yes and once we start writing down damage we're taking he says he's kidding :confused: . I wouldn't mind if that was something that happened now and then, but he does it ALL THE TIME!!! :banghead: Chances are, if you're getting annoyed by it (and I would be too), the other players will likewise be sick of it. You can either grin and bear it (or not), or perhaps confront the DM about it if it's concern. Perhaps offer to DM a game or two? I can tell you as a DM, nothing comes off worse than a burned out DM being forced to game, but I highly doubt this is the cause. It just seems your DM is out for a powertrip, and as someone else said, needs to grow up. As an aside, the rest of the group is remarkably tolerant to this, especially the DMPC. Of which, I must admit, I'm fond of using, but this is a ridiculous usage.
Balseraph 08-01-06, 06:53 PM	Gah! Again, taking everything you've said at face value, then yeah, you were justified in leaving. Maybe it's time to point at the DMPC and say "either he goes or I do". Sometimes in the games I play in or run, we remind one another of abilities our characters have (like familiars. We always forget that our spellcasters have or should have them) but we don't ever tell someone what to do with their character. Well... not seriously anyway :P As a DM the last time I had a DMPC it was a heal/tank-bot essentially because the party explicitly went out to find someone who could heal a little while soaking up some damage on the front line. So I made a cleric/fighter for them, intentionally focussed on healing rather than fighting. He could assist in keeping them alive while not overshadowing their glory. I made certain that he regarded them properly (his employers) and only ever offered tentative suggestions, none of which were acted upon because I made sure that they were less than brilliant :) If there is a DMPC who is hogging the spotlight, perhaps it's time to ask the DM privately why he feels it neccessary? It may also be time to talk to him in private and say that you get irritated by constant levity when the situation doesn't demand it. Just make sure it's not a big confrontation and talk to him like the adult he should be.
Ics 08-01-06, 07:23 PM	between the joking and the DMPC, he really just seems like a player who has a secondary duty of DMing. Unless you are not willing to do so, I'd suggest DMing a few games, and if it works, go from there. If he's as bad as you say, the other players will only welcome the change of pace.
WayneTheGame 08-01-06, 07:48 PM	Sounds like the DM needs a good dose of the Hammergun. Have you thought about DMing yourself?
Endarrion 08-01-06, 08:17 PM	I must admit that I use the "You're walking down the road and all of a sudden the Tarrasque jumps out and eats you," joke, or a variation of it, every session I DM, but it seems like your DM is taking it to another level entirely (my group, especially my gf has told me that they don't appreciate the joke-deaths, so I'm going to try to stop). It sounds like this Bane character is the bane of the gaming group. The DM should know better than to use a DMPC like that if he's as experienced as you say. Maybe he is of the opinion that this is what the group wants - a really light hearted joke-cracking none too serious campaign. If he is wrong then someone, probably you in conjunction with any other players who agree with you, should tell him so. Hopefully he'll listen and change his tune.
TRCEttin 08-01-06, 09:43 PM	Do the other players have a problem with this too? If so, turn the tables: Every time they enter a room, all the players make Spot checks to see what it looks like. When someone approaches, all the players make a Spot check to see what they look like and argue that this logically follows from having to do the above. Whenever a player (particularly and especially Bane) says something or a noise is made, all the players make a Listen check to see if they heard it. If something obviously important appears or happens, all the players make a Search or Spot check as appropriate to see if they notice it. If players have Knowledge skills, they roll Knowledge checks on everything to see if they can learn anything. If the DM gives them something that relies on visual evidence, the player rolls a Spot check to see if they notice it. The players randomly declare that they insult/attack/urinate on important NPCs, Bane and each other, then insist they were only joking. When he gets fed up, says "yeah, yeah" and ignores it, the players insist that they mean it this time until he caves in and allows it. Then, the players insist they were joking. At random points during combat, players say things like "I take out my +5 dancing vorpal axiomatic flaming holy bastard sword and attack. Oh hey, natural 20! And I confirmed the crit! He's dead. .... Just kidding!" Every single round. And make Spot checks to see if they notice the enemy.
Morphey 08-01-06, 09:53 PM	that reminde me of one DM i had who didnt want to tell us what was in the room if we didnt enter it first! Half the player left is game after only a few weeks.
Dolo 08-01-06, 10:25 PM	This has to be a first that a DM would tell a Paladin to use DE and the Paladin is saying he dosent have a reason to do it. He proably had some shrine to an evil god sitting in there and you would have gone blind or passed out from the pain of just looking at it.
Lafarallin 08-01-06, 11:03 PM	I absolutely hate it when a DM has a character play in the adventure. It is one thing if it is a henchman or retainer of a character that was roleplayed. When the DM keeps dropping their old "UBER CHARACTER" from when they played 10 years ago...that is the end of the line for me in the group.
aceland 08-02-06, 12:45 PM	double post Sorry
aceland 08-02-06, 12:46 PM	I agree with you that the joking would get old. You could try Dming, leave or try to talk to him about it. Those are the only options I can see for you to do. As far as the spot check maybe there was a guy hiding and he wanted to see if you noticed him before he gave the description of the room. rough example: Such as you enter a 30' by 20' room made of smooth stone. The only light source comes form the torch scorn beside you. In this room there are several mounds of rubble scattered in the room. (If player rolls over a 18 he notices a humanoid hiding behind the mound on left. If players rolls over a 22 he notices the humaniod is a goblin aiming a something at the party. If the player rolls over a 25 he notices that the goblin is aiming a wand at the party.) Since I would describe the first part and then hand notes to the rest of the party depending on what the rolled for spot.
Tristan 08-02-06, 01:21 PM	Do the other players have a problem with this too? If so, turn the tables: Every time they enter a room, all the players make Spot checks to see what it looks like. When someone approaches, all the players make a Spot check to see what they look like and argue that this logically follows from having to do the above. Whenever a player (particularly and especially Bane) says something or a noise is made, all the players make a Listen check to see if they heard it. If something obviously important appears or happens, all the players make a Search or Spot check as appropriate to see if they notice it. If players have Knowledge skills, they roll Knowledge checks on everything to see if they can learn anything. If the DM gives them something that relies on visual evidence, the player rolls a Spot check to see if they notice it. The players randomly declare that they insult/attack/urinate on important NPCs, Bane and each other, then insist they were only joking. When he gets fed up, says "yeah, yeah" and ignores it, the players insist that they mean it this time until he caves in and allows it. Then, the players insist they were joking. At random points during combat, players say things like "I take out my +5 dancing vorpal axiomatic flaming holy bastard sword and attack. Oh hey, natural 20! And I confirmed the crit! He's dead. .... Just kidding!" Every single round. And make Spot checks to see if they notice the enemy. hehe DM:Just detect Evil You:Did you say something? I keep failing my listen checks. :rolleyes:
Toloran 08-02-06, 01:22 PM	I agree with you that the joking would get old. You could try Dming, leave or try to talk to him about it. Those are the only options I can see for you to do. As far as the spot check maybe there was a guy hiding and he wanted to see if you noticed him before he gave the description of the room. rough example: Such as you enter a 30' by 20' room made of smooth stone. The only light source comes form the torch scorn beside you. In this room there are several mounds of rubble scattered in the room. (If player rolls over a 18 he notices a humanoid hiding behind the mound on left. If players rolls over a 22 he notices the humaniod is a goblin aiming a something at the party. If the player rolls over a 25 he notices that the goblin is aiming a wand at the party.) Since I would describe the first part and then hand notes to the rest of the party depending on what the rolled for spot. When I DM I do something similar to that. I instead describe the basics of the room and then ask for the spot check (no matter what they roll though, I always tell them something. If they all roll low its usually something stupid. Sometimes even when they roll high there is nothing for them to see so I still tell them something stupid).
pres_man 08-02-06, 02:22 PM	Life is too short to game with morons.
utilitarian 08-02-06, 03:17 PM	DMG. Across the face. Corner first. This is a classic case of the "I've got something cool!" DM outlook, where the DM has something cool he wants to do "You are blinded by the overwhelming force of evil in this room!" yada yada yada and can't wait for you or another member of the party to do the appropreate thing to let him go on his speil. It's similar to a DM who designs a puzzle or trap and refuses to awknowledge any solution other than the one obscure path which he thinks is very clever for thinking up and keeps going "man you guys are going to kick yourselves when you find out what the solution is, it's so simple!" If he's not going to describe a room to you, point out what Detect Evil wouldn't be of much use, since your character clearly has his EYES CLOSED.
Sulaco 08-02-06, 04:14 PM	DMG. Across the face. Corner first. This is a classic case of the "I've got something cool!" DM outlook, where the DM has something cool he wants to do "You are blinded by the overwhelming force of evil in this room!" yada yada yada and can't wait for you or another member of the party to do the appropreate thing to let him go on his speil. It's similar to a DM who designs a puzzle or trap and refuses to awknowledge any solution other than the one obscure path which he thinks is very clever for thinking up and keeps going "man you guys are going to kick yourselves when you find out what the solution is, it's so simple!" If he's not going to describe a room to you, point out what Detect Evil wouldn't be of much use, since your character clearly has his EYES CLOSED. Precisely. The DM is the eyes, ears, nose and throat of the PCs. He is their window into the world. A DM who refuses to give simple information like what a room looks like is essentially telling you your PC is blind. The sad truth is that this DM is playing with himself - in every sense of the phrase - and you poor sods are just along for the ride.
Zheon 08-02-06, 09:51 PM	i encountered something a little similar lately. we wanted to just fight, so one of my friends started running an arena fight. we walk through the gates. Situation 1: Me: "okay, what do i see?" DM: "make a spot check." Me: "dude.. you dont need a spot check to *see*" DM: "okay.. you see something." Me: "what kind of something?" DM: "something something." *5 minute fight about him being an idiot.* DM: (obviously feeling annoyed) "okay. you see something on four legs with wings." *after fight* DM: "it was a gryphon btw." Me: " *really*? wow it could have been all of ANYTHING. be more specific next time." situation 2: DM: "the gates open" Me: "i walk through, what do i se--" DM: "whats your AC?" Me: "uhh.. 17 i think." DM: *roll, roll, roll, roll. roll roll roll.*.. "..okay.. take 32 damage." Me: "dude.. im playing a level one." ..continue for an hour before i suggest we stop. DMs like that SUCK. either teach him how to play, or DM yourself.. or you could get one of your friends to DM. just.. figure something out.
Dead_Karma 08-03-06, 01:21 AM	hehe DM:Just detect Evil You:Did you say something? I keep failing my listen checks. :rolleyes: lol, i like that. ont the other hand i'd say i've the opposite with the description. i think my dm has a 12 page front back description for all the rooms. plus i've to deal with the dm wanting us to play tomb raider. going to have to redesign some stuff for the modern i run. eh oh well. i like dm's that tell me what i see based on answering this question. do i see anything of import, than a brief description of what if anything, then let me search and, or spot.
a_psh 08-03-06, 01:56 AM	Never play in a game with a DM using a DMPC unless you're doing some kind of socialogical experiment. No entertainment can come of it.Moreover, never play in a game where the DM even jokingly contemplates forcibly inserting things up your character's butt.
pres_man 08-03-06, 10:29 AM	Moreover, never play in a game where the DM even jokingly contemplates forcibly inserting things up your character's butt. Indeed, if any of the other players ask why things ended like they did, tell them you didn't feel comfortable with the DM putting his repressed sexual issues on you.
Thelandrach 08-03-06, 02:55 PM	I'm still trying to figure out how the DM figured a Spot check and a Detect Evil check were interchangeable... do all Evil things have a black aura, or do the bad guys just write "EVIL" across their foreheads to make it easy for the non-paladins? And, in either case, how is either a requirement to find out what a room looks like?
BopLouie 08-03-06, 03:07 PM	I'd go out on a limb and say whatever the DMPC attacks is what's evil. But back to the OP, I'm with everyone else on this. The DM sounds like an immature prat who's more concerned with amusing himself than running a game you can all enjoy. You however sound like you've got an idea of what a proper game should be. Look a setting one up yourself.
DMsDelight 08-03-06, 03:36 PM	Wow, I've never been THAT bad, even my very first session. I try not to force characters into situations, unless for crucial backstory, and even that has a justifiable in-game reason (my group is now out for blood on the thing that is imprisoning them and playing his sick little game). In fact, I allow just about anything, even other setting stuff, if a) It's on the same power level and b)I can find a fit in my world, somehow, someway. Also, I let my characters do what's needed, even if it screws up my ENTIRE adventure. A good DM can roll with the changes, and can accomadate different playing styles. Though I have about 10-12 people in my campaign, so balance is starting to get screwy, but I'm overcoming that. My sugestion: Leave that group, or DM your own, or, if you live near me, join my camppaign or one of the three others I play in. You'll actually enjoy this. And I'm curious, I want to see the DM's perspective on this...
Guroth the Forsaken 08-03-06, 03:36 PM	Do the other players have a problem with this too? If so, turn the tables: Every time they enter a room, all the players make Spot checks to see what it looks like. When someone approaches, all the players make a Spot check to see what they look like and argue that this logically follows from having to do the above. Whenever a player (particularly and especially Bane) says something or a noise is made, all the players make a Listen check to see if they heard it. If something obviously important appears or happens, all the players make a Search or Spot check as appropriate to see if they notice it. If players have Knowledge skills, they roll Knowledge checks on everything to see if they can learn anything. If the DM gives them something that relies on visual evidence, the player rolls a Spot check to see if they notice it. The players randomly declare that they insult/attack/urinate on important NPCs, Bane and each other, then insist they were only joking. When he gets fed up, says "yeah, yeah" and ignores it, the players insist that they mean it this time until he caves in and allows it. Then, the players insist they were joking. At random points during combat, players say things like "I take out my +5 dancing vorpal axiomatic flaming holy bastard sword and attack. Oh hey, natural 20! And I confirmed the crit! He's dead. .... Just kidding!" Every single round. And make Spot checks to see if they notice the enemy. Yeah, I'd do exactly this, if I didn't outright leave the group. Your DM is quite the d!ck. Tell him to read this thread, if he doesn't believe you.
Sulaco 08-03-06, 03:54 PM	Yeah, I'd do exactly this, if I didn't outright leave the group. Your DM is quite the d!ck. Tell him to read this thread, if he doesn't believe you. Or even better, just get this t-shirt and wear it to the game: http://www.warehouse23.com/img/covers/owd45007.jpg
Aterum 08-03-06, 04:08 PM	Or even better, just get this t-shirt and wear it to the game: http://www.warehouse23.com/img/covers/owd45007.jpg Where can I get this?! :eek:
green_yawgmoth 08-03-06, 04:15 PM	I need that shirt. OP, you were completely justified. I've had DMs that seemed to have this urge to railroad us whenever we didn't do exactly what he expected us to do, including the ever-present "you attack (bad guy) while he's talking? Okay, you die. He's really a god. So do you others do what he wants you too? good." Every. Freakin'. Time. Sounds like this kid needs to learn that some jokes are fine some of the time, but making a joke at every possible pass and twice on sundays gets really old. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Righter8 08-03-06, 04:28 PM	My opninion: You start DMing. At the same time this jack-ass is running his game. On the same day too. Invite the entire group. Except him. If you feel like talking to him ever again, tell him to run a solo campaign with Bane. Tell him to roll up 4 npc's as lackeys for Bane. Have him roll a listen check. If he gets a 1 or better, tell him he hears if players walking away. Good luck, you deserve better.
Sphyre 08-03-06, 04:36 PM	You don't need a spot check to see what a room looks like. The DM is an idiot. The DM calls for spot checks, the player decides to do search checks. That's the difference between the two. I second that your DM is an idiot.
Sulaco 08-03-06, 04:55 PM	The DM calls for spot checks, the player decides to do search checks. That's the difference between the two. I am well aware that they are not the same thing. You need a Spot check to notice something specific, hidden, unusual, noteworthy, or out of the ordinary, not to simply see what a fracking room looks like. The DM is the character's senses. By withholding commonplace, essential information he is blinding and deafening the PCs. He is their window into the world and idiots like this DM leave the curtains drawn. Let's say a party opens a door and enters a room... No check required: The room appears to be a library. Tall shelves of books line the walls and dust is thick over everything. Spot check: The dust in one area of the floor is scraped away, suggesting there might be a secret passage behind. Search check: You find a hidden lever behind a thick volume on the history of lacemaking. With a loud click the section of the bookcase swings aside revealing a passge behind. This DM is refusing to give the players information that their PCs possess (what the room looks like). He is an idiot. The difference between Spot and Search checks has nothing to do with it.
ToxicWiz 08-03-06, 05:37 PM	OP: I thought i had it bad... totally justified. i'd recommend the T-shirt, TRCEttin's advice, or the DM guide approach. by the sound of it, a concussion will be an improvement. I would stay and dm, this guy needs to see it done right. it's late, so sorry for spelling ect in advance :)
Arctigear 08-03-06, 06:19 PM	Ouch, not a fun story. I can see that your DM is a bit of (well, maybe a lot of) a moron. That said, I think you overreacted. Do any of the other players have a problem with the constant joking? Have you tried to talk to the DM seriously outside the campaign with the other players and see if you can resolve it? I know thats probably not what you wanted to do at the moment you left, but leaving creates two-way annoyance, as opposed to you just disliking the DM. He does sound stupid, but I don't think any DM would actually want the players to hate his campaign.
hollow_ghost 08-03-06, 07:50 PM	This is a case of asking yourselves: "IS he even a DM?" link to my such story, where I didn't do a spot check and where Scouts take 20 on hide and move silently (long): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9558900#post9558900
Guroth the Forsaken 08-03-06, 08:14 PM	I am well aware that they are not the same thing. You need a Spot check to notice something specific, hidden, unusual, noteworthy, or out of the ordinary, not to simply see what a fracking room looks like. The DM is the character's senses. By withholding commonplace, essential information he is blinding and deafening the PCs. He is their window into the world and idiots like this DM leave the curtains drawn. Let's say a party opens a door and enters a room... No check required: The room appears to be a library. Tall shelves of books line the walls and dust is thick over everything. Spot check: The dust in one area of the floor is scraped away, suggesting there might be a secret passage behind. Search check: You find a hidden lever behind a thick volume on the history of lacemaking. With a loud click the section of the bookcase swings aside revealing a passge behind. This DM is refusing to give the players information that their PCs possess (what the room looks like). He is an idiot. The difference between Spot and Search checks has nothing to do with it. :thumbsup: I'd LOVE to have this person read this and explain the reason he thinks his 'style' makes for enjoyable gaming for others.
Erloas 08-03-06, 08:57 PM	Well if Bane was leading the group, when you go into the room, he asks for detect evil... you are obviously going to see something. Since he acted like there was nothing in the room to see you can just assume Bane is the cause of the evil aura (since there is nothing else in the room to notice) and attack Bane.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-06, 10:16 PM	Never play in a game with a DM using a DMPC unless you're doing some kind of socialogical experiment. No entertainment can come of it. This is patiently untrue. The DMPC is an advanced tool that a DM really needs to earn by becomeing a good roleplayer on both sides of the screen to have the knowledge required to properly use one. When properly used however, they are an invaulable tool for creating further emersion and emotional attachment to the game.
utilitarian 08-03-06, 10:43 PM	A DMPC can actually be an extremely useful tool to AVOID this kind of situation. Rather than trying to force a player to perform a certain action in order to trigger an event or advance the plot, he can use his PC to make subtle (SUBTLE) actions which steer the campaign in the needed direction.
Sphyre 08-03-06, 11:08 PM	I am well aware that they are not the same thing. You need a Spot check to notice something specific, hidden, unusual, noteworthy, or out of the ordinary, not to simply see what a fracking room looks like. just fyi, I wasn't responding to your post, but rather using yours to further detail what you didn't outline, making your point even stronger. I figured you would realize that when i said that I seconded your opinion :)
Righter8 08-04-06, 04:29 AM	The DMPC is an advanced tool ... I agree, the DMPC is usually a TOOL :rofl:
Sulaco 08-04-06, 09:20 AM	just fyi, I wasn't responding to your post, but rather using yours to further detail what you didn't outline, making your point even stronger. I figured you would realize that when i said that I seconded your opinion :) Assume nothing. The ability of even smart people to miss something that seems blindingly obvious in retrospect can never be underestimated. ;)
Sulaco 08-04-06, 09:24 AM	This is patiently untrue. The DMPC is an advanced tool that a DM really needs to earn by becomeing a good roleplayer on both sides of the screen to have the knowledge required to properly use one. When properly used however, they are an invaulable tool for creating further emersion and emotional attachment to the game. No, they aren't. A DMPC is an NPC to which the DM has too much emotional attachment. They should be avoided like the rotting corpse of a dead dog. A complex and advanced NPC is fine, however. I suggest sticking with them. http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/gmpc.jpg
green_yawgmoth 08-04-06, 01:16 PM	No, they aren't. A DMPC is an NPC to which the DM has too much emotional attachment. They should be avoided like the rotting corpse of a dead dog. A complex and advanced NPC is fine, however. I suggest sticking with them. [IMG-gmpc.jpg]So is it safe to assume that you just hate the title of DMPC, rather than the concept of the DM using a character to help the party along? I use recurring NPCs when the game and events warrant it. They're usually a mix of pain-in-the-ass, sarcastic, and irritatingly useful. I gotta get in my smartass remarks to the PCs somehow. :P http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-04-06, 03:02 PM	So is it safe to assume that you just hate the title of DMPC, rather than the concept of the DM using a character to help the party along? "I don't like the term 'chainsaw' It implies bondage, also, I heard one guy cut off another guy's arm with one. Just call it a saw." ^ Pretty much the argument and the logic of hating DMPCs.
Sulaco 08-04-06, 03:07 PM	So is it safe to assume that you just hate the title of DMPC, rather than the concept of the DM using a character to help the party along? I use recurring NPCs when the game and events warrant it. They're usually a mix of pain-in-the-ass, sarcastic, and irritatingly useful. I gotta get in my smartass remarks to the PCs somehow. :P Not just the term. The term DMPC (Dungeon Master's Player Character) implies a whole raft of things quite different than just a persistent NPC. This, however, is another discussion altogether and one we shoudl take to another thread rather than derailing this one any further.
Sulaco 08-04-06, 03:12 PM	"I don't like the term 'chainsaw' It implies bondage, also, I heard one guy cut off another guy's arm with one. Just call it a saw." ^ Pretty much the argument and the logic of hating DMPCs. Just cos you do not agree with me please do no belittle me or the reasoning behind my position, Vaal. I know you are better than that. "Sure I'm the referee but that doesn't stop me from actually playing the game" is a far more apt analogy. PCs are characters controlled by players. NPCs are every other chracter in the universe, controlled by the DM. What kind of megalomaniac needs to play every single other entity in the universe and a PC as well?
getgoldcardsoul 08-04-06, 05:10 PM	At this point the DM started to make fun of me for getting angry. I got fed up, packed up my things, and left. On my way out I heard one of the players ask what the room looked like and the DM told him to "Make a Spot check, that's all you had to do."Wow. That's low. I imagine he sounded snotty when he said that? Besides being just plain wrong, if the DM was actually trying to rib you on your way out then he is also a huge jerk. I mean how're you supposed to effectively respond to something like that? How you did respond seemed best; it's good you kept walking, since it could've gotten worse if you turned around. Still, the satisfaction of self-defense is lost. Then again, it would have probably had been lost on someone like that anyway, someone who would have probably just kept mocking you as you try to talk back (something "classic" like, "Cry me a river, you whining baby!"). It's sort of like going into a chat room and then having someone announcing that they're ignoring you and then proceeding to insult you anyway. Not even a chance to defend yourself. That's low.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-04-06, 05:13 PM	Just cos you do not agree with me please do no belittle me or the reasoning behind my position, Vaal. I know you are better than that. But the reasoning requires belittling. You're afraid of a word Not even a word, an aconym. But not what it represents. "Sure I'm the referee but that doesn't stop me from actually playing the game" is a far more apt analogy. PCs are characters controlled by players. Because it needs to be in the hugest letters simply to make sure people realise it: The DM IS a player. What kind of megalomaniac needs to play every single other entity in the universe and a PC as well? What kind of insecure attention seeker won't let thier friend play in a game they put hours a week into making for the sake of enertaining the whole group? DM's shouldn't be the other players' Playstation substitute. We're just as active players in the game as they are. At least the good ones.
Bulletproof_Condom 08-04-06, 05:51 PM	Giant Text!Yeah, but he's not a party member. He's everybody that isn't the party. If he wanted to play a party member, he should let someone else DM. There's nothing wrong with having NPCs follow the party on a regular or semi-regular basis. The problem comes in when it's the same NPC who regularly overshadows all the PCs, solves all the puzzles, does all the work, leads them around by the nose, never needs help, always survives... when the game becomes a DM playing with himself so his friends can watch, it's not fun anymore. If at any point a DM refers to any of the NPCs in the first person, you may have a problem.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-04-06, 06:09 PM	Yeah, but he's not a party member. He's everybody that isn't the party. If he wanted to play a party member, he should let someone else DM. It is completely possible for a DM to play a party member and do it well. There is no reason he shouldn't if he can. The problem comes in when it's the same NPC who regularly overshadows all the PCs, solves all the puzzles, does all the work, leads them around by the nose, never needs help, always survives... when the game becomes a DM playing with himself so his friends can watch, it's not fun anymore. This can be said of any player and is not an inherent attribute of DMPCs. If at any point a DM refers to any of the NPCs in the first person, you may have a problem. This is absurd.
Always-Late 08-04-06, 06:20 PM	Man, I totally love arguments that have anything to do with paladins/babies/alignment/fudging/optimization/psionics. They are always awfully productive. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=635185 In any case, I think this thread has been derailed from it's original course. Another thread would be good. But we can all come to the agreement that this DMPC sucked, and that's what counts.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-04-06, 06:43 PM	But we can all come to the agreement that this DMPC sucked, and that's what counts. Ban sucks, but that's because his player sucks, not because his player has additonal responsabilities in the game. If the DM sucks as a player, he shouldn't be DMing, much less DMPCing. He's probably the kind of guy that players my way or the highway types when he doesn't have the DM job anyway.
danielinthewolvesden 08-04-06, 08:20 PM	This is patiently untrue. The DMPC is an advanced tool that a DM really needs to earn by becomeing a good roleplayer on both sides of the screen to have the knowledge required to properly use one. When properly used however, they are an invaulable tool for creating further emersion and emotional attachment to the game. Patiently? :confused: Sometimes the best tools are those which are rarely used. The DMPC belongs in there with the adze or the frow. This DMPC described here is the typical DMPC, not the exception. You personaly think DMPC's are wonderful as you say you always run one. Perhaps you are tiny bit biased? Back to the OP. Talk with the other players. See what they say and feel. Then, if you have them behind you, sit down and talk to the DM. Tell him "no more Bane, and we'd like a game that is a little bit more serious." However, i admit this likely won't work. You might have to go with Righter8 's idea. :D But if so: do invite your ex-DM. Maybe if he sees how a real D&D game is run, he'll learn.
Sphyre 08-06-06, 07:04 PM	Assume nothing. The ability of even smart people to miss something that seems blindingly obvious in retrospect can never be underestimated. ;) Heh. It's a difference of communication styles. I've been reveiwing up my japanese, a language that allows you to say whatever you mean, and then the listening party has the responsibility of truely figuring out what you meant by what you said. Sorry... I just hadn't switched back to an american english mindset yet :( My bad. But all is good, you eventually knew what I was saying.
kelvinaw273 08-06-06, 07:27 PM	As a DM the last time I had a DMPC it was a heal/tank-bot essentially because the party explicitly went out to find someone who could heal a little while soaking up some damage on the front line. So I made a cleric/fighter for them, intentionally focussed on healing rather than fighting. He could assist in keeping them alive while not overshadowing their glory. I made certain that he regarded them properly (his employers) and only ever offered tentative suggestions, none of which were acted upon because I made sure that they were less than brilliant :) That is not a DMPC. That is a significant NPC. There is a major, major difference between the two. If you see "DMPC" in the post, you can almost tell what is about to unfurl. This post answers all the questions of those that query whether DMs should have PCs, and it is a resounding NO.
kelvinaw273 08-06-06, 07:50 PM	Because it needs to be in the hugest letters simply to make sure people realise it: The DM IS a player. What kind of insecure attention seeker won't let thier friend play in a game they put hours a week into making for the sake of enertaining the whole group? DM's shouldn't be the other players' Playstation substitute. We're just as active players in the game as they are. At least the good ones. Wrong. If the DM cannot gain enjoyment from the act or creation and the art of storytelling, he should not be a DM. The job of the DM is to referee the actions of all parties, interpret the rules, create the world, design the adventure and play "everyone else". There are some RARE DMs that can pull off playing a PC as well, but the important word there is RARE. In fact, make that VERY RARE. Problem is, it needs to be combined with a gaming group that is very mature and clear-headed or else even if he does not favour his character or hog the limelight, he will likely have players think he is from time to time. Bad DMPCing can ruin everyone's campaign, bad playing ruins just one player's campaign. Big, just so that you understand it very clearly: The DM is NOT a player. If the DM sucks as a player, he shouldn't be DMing, much less DMPCing. Also wrong. I have known DMs that sucked as players but were fantastic DMs. Some of the best DMs I have ever played with were like this - they were so good at DM mindset that they couldn't leave it behind. HEALTH WARNING: DMPCing is bad for your gaming group. If you feel you are in danger of DMPCing, are tempted to DMPC or actually ARE DMPCing, then you should hand in your DMG to the next DM and ask him to give you a break. Play as a player until the urge to DMPC has completely gone. In extreme cases you may have to have your ego surgically removed - don't panic, it is for your own good as your ego has clearly become cancerous.
Zheon 08-06-06, 08:18 PM	My opninion: You start DMing. At the same time this jack-ass is running his game. On the same day too. Invite the entire group. Except him. If you feel like talking to him ever again, tell him to run a solo campaign with Bane. Tell him to roll up 4 npc's as lackeys for Bane. Have him roll a listen check. If he gets a 1 or better, tell him he hears if players walking away. Good luck, you deserve better. Oh. My. God. I second, third, fourth, and fifth this. Do it. This is the best, awsomest, funniest, most brutal idea Ive heard in a while. Do it. To Righter8: :cookie: I hope its good.
LCD2YOU 08-06-06, 08:50 PM	What a bunch of whiney players. What the DM allowed you to convince them that you actually had your eyes open as a matter of fact? What's wrong with a DC of 15 to check if your PC actually put on their armor that day? Did you, the whiney player, tell your DM directly that is what you did? Don't even get me started on those worthless players who run spellcasters.
Rab-Ka-La 08-06-06, 09:46 PM	I have been playing since 1979 and DMing since about 1985. I have only seen one DM play a DMPC without being irritating. Most of the time I DM. I don't like running extra NPC's. When I can't get the players to run one properly, I tend to make the NPC completely cowardly or useless until a player does it or it's gone. I would stick my hand up this DM's arse and puppet him to the curb.
FangsofChaos 08-06-06, 10:44 PM	Me and the guy I share this account with (we share a puter and are just too lazy to keep switching) used to run a campaign that we took turns Dming and eventually just decided to start DMPCing our characters when it was our turn to dm. We had a hell of a time and it's one of our most fondly remembered campaigns. With that being said though I don't think I will ever bother dmpcing agian. I found that talkinig to myself is very annoying as is having another character to worry about every battle. I don't mind if the Dm does it as long as I don't have to take second stage to him but over all it's just a waste of time. Other wise your DM sounds like a complete moron. I agree with the post about starting your own campaign and forgetting about this guy. Obviously he's just using this campaign to toot his and Bane's own horns, and should therefore be ignored.
danielinthewolvesden 08-06-06, 11:36 PM	Me and the guy I share this account with (we share a puter and are just too lazy to keep switching) used to run a campaign that we took turns Dming and eventually just decided to start DMPCing our characters when it was our turn to dm. We had a hell of a time and it's one of our most fondly remembered campaigns. With that being said though I don't think I will ever bother dmpcing agian. . I have said that a major exception to the *general* rule on "no DMPC's" is when the players/DMs take turns playing/DMing. Esp. in a small group.
iKitten 08-07-06, 04:53 AM	To the original poster: I'd say, based on what you've said, you did the right thing. I've only walked out on one game, and that was after 3 years of gaming with a half dozen different groups and some conventions. When I have a problem with a player or a DM/GM, I take it to the two of them (or one when it's the case of a DM). Let the jokers know they need to be more serious. Let the jerks know they need to reign it in. Never threaten to leave a game, but don't deny yourself the opportunity either. Personally, nothing ruffles my feathers more than a player who threatens to leave a game if he doesn't get his way. At the same time, I recognize it as a right of every person in my games. The same is true when I play. A DM can't run a game if he runs off his players, and the egotists who hide behind their screens giving the rest of us a bad name need to understand that. Being a jerk is easy. Being a good DM is not, but it begins with trying your hardest to not be a jerk.
Sulaco 08-08-06, 12:22 PM	But the reasoning requires belittling. You're afraid of a word Not even a word, an aconym. But not what it represents. Because it needs to be in the hugest letters simply to make sure people realise it: The DM IS a player. What kind of insecure attention seeker won't let thier friend play in a game they put hours a week into making for the sake of enertaining the whole group? DM's shouldn't be the other players' Playstation substitute. We're just as active players in the game as they are. At least the good ones. I am not afraid of the word - indeed I am not "afraid" of any of it - I do, however, disagree entirely with the psychology implicit in the word. Yes the DM is a player - as in a person playing the game with his friends - but he is not a Player (note the uppercase P) cos that is the name for everyone involved in the game who is not the DM. The DM is playing the game but he is not a Player. As a DM he has elected to play the game in a specific role and with specific responsibilities. Any DM who is unsatisfied with playing the game in the role of DM - such as one who insists on also playing a PC - should not DM at all. Period. Screaming at me and deprecating me does not change that. Once again I would ask that you please have some respect and not belittle me simply cos I disagree with you.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-08-06, 02:03 PM	I have said that a major exception to the *general* rule on "no DMPC's" is when the players/DMs take turns playing/DMing. Esp. in a small group. Agreed. We do it in our large group, as we rotate the DM duties. I'm lucky, as no one in the group knows how to run them in that situation.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-08-06, 02:06 PM	But the reasoning requires belittling. Wrong. No opinion on these boards requires belittling. Certainly not Sulaco's. If you see one you can't stand? Ignore it.
Rab-Ka-La 08-08-06, 10:58 PM	I am not afraid of the word - indeed I am not "afraid" of any of it - I do, however, disagree entirely with the psychology implicit in the word. Yes the DM is a player - as in a person playing the game with his friends - but he is not a Player (note the uppercase P) cos that is the name for everyone involved in the game who is not the DM. The DM is playing the game but he is not a Player. As a DM he has elected to play the game in a specific role and with specific responsibilities. Any DM who is unsatisfied with playing the game in the role of DM - such as one who insists on also playing a PC - should not DM at all. Period. Screaming at me and deprecating me does not change that. Once again I would ask that you please have some respect and not belittle me simply cos I disagree with you. I wholly agree with Sulaco here. The DM must find his joy as storyteller, world builder, referee, judge, jury, mentor, friend, and the needed bit players. Sometimes they can even find some fun vicariously through the other players. They can never be a Player in the same sense. Any DM who can not find enjoyment with all that they are given, has no business being a GM. I have said that a major exception to the *general* rule on "no DMPC's" is when the players/DMs take turns playing/DMing. Esp. in a small group. I have only seen this once. It was even worse than most DMPC's. The two guys pandered to each others characters with only the thinnest veil of impartiality. Soon the DM's both had characters who were not only higher in level, but also completely decked out in ultimate magic items. The rest of the group was nothing comparatively. The whole group walked out on them about 4 months into the campaign.