Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin2004 01-21-05, 07:44 PM	Is it possible to use 2 Sheilds, one in each hand? muhahaha walking Spikey Metal Box? Can you use any 2 sheilds or do they have to be smaller than tower? if so wah tare the rules , ty
Fabian Le'Trou 01-21-05, 07:46 PM	Shield bonuses don't stack, as far as I know.
obrysii 01-21-05, 07:49 PM	You can. But you don't gain the shield AC bonuses from both. You can two-weapon fight with a Heavy shield and a Light shield, if you wish. They're treated as a one handed, and a light weapon, respectively.
Shadowmagyk 01-21-05, 09:19 PM	You can. But you don't gain the shield AC bonuses from both. You can two-weapon fight with a Heavy shield and a Light shield, if you wish. They're treated as a one handed, and a light weapon, respectively. The shield part of the bonus doesnt stack, but you can still receive the magical benefits of the shield. If you are using the shields as weapons, does the magical plus to AC count for plus to attack and damage? Can you put offensive capabilities on a shield?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-21-05, 09:25 PM	There are forms in Wu Shu for fighting with 2 shields (roughly between a buckler and a small round shield in size).. They offer a lot of defensive options as well as surprisingly effective attacks. They also gives you a psychological advantage because of the rarity of the style. Everybody know how to fight against a swordman (we've all seen a lot of movies/exhibitions and fought using sticks as kids), but how can you predict the moves of an unfamiliar weapon? From a D&D point of view, I'd say you could stack 2 shields' bonus to AC when in full defense. You'd only receive a single shield's bonus to AC when attacking. Of course, you'd have to take exotic weapon profiency (exotic style proficiency?), 2 weapon fighting and improved shield bash to use them. They'd also have to be small shields or bucklers. No monkey-griped twin tower shields... Those were my 2 cents.
Draco Strang 01-21-05, 10:00 PM	I for one, think that this is pretty cool. The next fighter opponent my players face will be dealing with this. Thanks for the idea.
Gurv 01-21-05, 11:35 PM	Want something worse? Create a monk using two shields. Monks don't need to have their hands free to attack.
GoodTeletubby 01-22-05, 12:43 AM	Want something worse? Create a monk using two shields. Monks don't need to have their hands free to attack. yeah, if only it weren't for When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Thorak 01-22-05, 12:59 AM	And if it weren't also for; Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Replace "light" with "heavy", and the text is identical for heavy shields. Point being, a shield is forced to be an off-hand weapon. You can't wield two off-hand weapons. So, there's no way to shield bash with two shields at once.
Snommelp 01-22-05, 01:23 AM	If you are using the shields as weapons, does the magical plus to AC count for plus to attack and damage? Can you put offensive capabilities on a shield? No to the first part. Magical AC bonuses and magical Attack bonuses are seperate things. A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
mcnoo 01-22-05, 02:11 PM	d&d says you can't get more than one shield bonus. Bollocks to that says I, i LARP a lot and 2 shields makes you an unassailable fortress, an utter god of the battlefield, but it just so happens you can't attack anything. A pair of bucklers however is an amazing bit of kit, plus you can effectively use a weapon and a buckler on the same arm, no matter how much the PHB may lie to you.
neilthrun 01-22-05, 04:56 PM	Or you could use double dwarven buckler axes. I believe thats in Complete Warrior or arms and equipment. I also seem to remeber some turtle shell thing witha spike on it thats was a shield/weapon as well.
Snommelp 01-22-05, 05:08 PM	two things, mcnoo: 1) we are not interested in how things work in LARPs, or in your vendetta against DnD's shield system which came about from LARPing 2) slightly contradicting what I just said by talking about your LARP experience: I'm guessing when you LARP that you use the standard padded weapons and shields, which do not weigh nearly as much as the real thing. Therefore, your LARP experience says nothing about whether the -1 penalty for using a buckler on the same arm as a weapon is accurate.
crazysamaritan 01-22-05, 05:14 PM	Point being, a shield is forced to be an off-hand weapon. You can't wield two off-hand weapons. So, there's no way to shield bash with two shields at once. Buckler and armor spikes..... I'd say those were two off-hand weapons, wouldn't you?
Paladin2004 01-22-05, 05:20 PM	Wow, an arguement on a thread I started, I'm so proud :P
Thorak 01-22-05, 05:30 PM	Buckler and armor spikes..... I'd say those were two off-hand weapons, wouldn't you? No, I wouldn't. Because armor spikes aren't required to be an off-hand weapon, they can just as easily be a primary one. And because you can't use a buckler as a weapon. You can only Bash with light and heavy shields, not bucklers nor tower shields. So even if it were a light shield and armor spikes, the spikes are the primary weapon and the shield the off-hand. No problem.
Edymnion 01-22-05, 05:34 PM	you can effectively use a weapon and a buckler on the same arm, no matter how much the PHB may lie to you.Um, the PHB says you can use a buckler and a weapon with the same arm at the same time just fine. Only drawbacks are a -1 to hit because you've got a pizza pan strapped to your arm, which gets in the way, and that you can't use the buckler for defense at the same time that you are swinging the weapon in that hand, which makes perfect sense. You can use a buckler and a weapon in the same hand quite effectively in D&D...
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-22-05, 06:03 PM	two things, mcnoo: 1) we are not interested in how things work in LARPs, or in your vendetta against DnD's shield system which came about from LARPing 2) slightly contradicting what I just said by talking about your LARP experience: I'm guessing when you LARP that you use the standard padded weapons and shields, which do not weigh nearly as much as the real thing. Therefore, your LARP experience says nothing about whether the -1 penalty for using a buckler on the same arm as a weapon is accurate. I, for one, am interested in reading about real-life experience pertainning to a rule question. The point is, if it can REALISTICALY be done, it should be possible to do it in D&D, using a houserule or something. Did you think that maybe, just maybe, the penalty has more to do with the use of the buckler-arm to attack instead of defense? A buckler is so small that you have to actively block with it (as opposed to a larger shield, who seems to attract hits :D). If you're attacking with a sword in the same arm, it's harder to block using your forearm (just try to block a blow with your forearm while wielding a weapon offensively in the other...) than if you held nothing in said hand. The reverse is also true :) As for the weight issue, the weapons I use in LARPs and REALISTIC medieval weapons weight about the same thing: about 4-5 lbs. forget the old preconception that medieval swords were just heavy cleaving 40lbs piece of badly sharpened metal. The average soldier was inteligent enough to understand that he needed a weapon he could A): carry with him without risking to break his back B): actually wield. This stupid assumption is often held at the same time as "katanas are superior to medieval swords. (To all asian-centrics: This is NOT the point here, so please, no flames on this). forget the replicas you can buy in store, they are made to be beautifull, not fight-worthy (is hat a word?).
Snommelp 01-22-05, 06:12 PM	@ Ze_Mighty_Vegetable: the weapons I used when I LARPed never weighed more than 1 pound. If yours were of a more believable weight, more power to you. As for your first point: reality sometimes gets thrown out the window in DnD. The easiest example is magic, but there are others as well, like people surviving a fall from the upper stratosphere. And finally, to respond to your second point, it's the PHB that first mentioned weight, which is why I mentioned it.
Draco_Whitewind 01-22-05, 06:29 PM	one of my favorite shield combos gets very nice, namely when you do it right. Large shield, +5, animated. leaves your hands free. but what's better, stick spikes onto the shield, and make them +5, defending, and always devote the full attack bonus to the defense bonus. 2 free hands, and +7 shield bonus, as well as an always stacking +5 additional armor bonus. I love to dual weild with that combo, it's devastating. ~Draco
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-22-05, 10:00 PM	LARP rant:I hate latex weapons :) I said realistic, not real, as in "as real as possible while maintaining play-balance and fun. For the weight part, you're completly right. Oops :D My mistake. But I still stand by my argument about how hard it is to use bucklers while attacking with a weapon in this hand on the sole basis of coordination. Of course, I'll also concede weight :( Now, for the most important of your text... If yours were of a more believable weight, more power to you. I wholeheartedly agree. more power to me is definatly a good thing.
fdnickerson 01-22-05, 10:12 PM	Yes You can use 2 shields, but it isn't an effective combination. ASFAIK you can't use the shield to attack and defend in the same round. It's either/or.
Thorak 01-23-05, 12:01 AM	I just posted this on another similar thread, but I'll post the same thing here (though in different words, I'm rewriting not copy-pasting) since it applies well; A good realistic reason why you can't gain two shield bonuses to AC is that, for any given attack, you're only going to be using one shield. You can't block a sword strike with both shields at the same time. If you try that, you'll either block it with the one in front, making the one in behind useless, or you'll have them at the same distance out, and the sword will go right through the middle. On any given attack, only one shield will apply. D&D is kind in letting you get the best shield bonus, period. As for the LARPers comments; you, frankly, probably have the combat ability of a 1st or 2nd level Fighter. Even if you've got a black belt in some martial art, that probably puts you at level 6 or 7. At those levels, a shield makes a huge difference to how easily you hit someone. So, of course the guy with two shields seems supremely tanky. If he knew what he was doing with one, though, he'd be just as tanky, assuming he knew what he was doing. Though he'd look less tanky, but that's just appearance. I
Konal 01-23-05, 01:37 AM	funny that, this thread. see last week two members in my group asked this same exact question. after much discussion and a burger and much fries later we came up with a new feat. it lets you use two shields at once, getting the ac from both of them, its got some prerequisites which i dont remember what they are but yeah. ooh, also, it cant be used with tower shields
Alcari Ambaron 01-23-05, 04:43 PM	Thorak is absolutely right, you cant physically block a hit with 2 shields at the same time, but the magic force field thingy from the second shield should be counted. in game terms...2 shields each with a +2 enchantment could only give you the shields normal bonus to AC +2 +2(for the second shield), and maybe protect you from flanking. but it wouldn't work with bucklers. although, come to think of it, you could block an axe or sword hit with two bucklers.... but bucklars give you the abilty to wield swords at -1. ouch real problem here.
Thorak 01-23-05, 07:46 PM	Thorak is absolutely right, you cant physically block a hit with 2 shields at the same time, but the magic force field thingy from the second shield should be counted. in game terms...2 shields each with a +2 enchantment could only give you the shields normal bonus to AC +2 +2(for the second shield), and maybe protect you from flanking. but it wouldn't work with bucklers. although, come to think of it, you could block an axe or sword hit with two bucklers.... but bucklars give you the abilty to wield swords at -1. ouch real problem here. I disagree. That bonus is an "enhancement" bonus. It enhances that specific shield. I see no reason why both would apply if both shield bonuses don't. As I've shown, at least IMHO, that they probably shouldn't.
CycloneRanger 01-24-05, 06:10 PM	I have often wondered about this myself. The current rules do not support it. Two shield bonuses (and enhancement bonuses on those shields) do not stack. At all. Period. I think you could, technically, dual-wield shields to gain the benefits of their special abilities, if they have any. A +1 shield that protects you from fire could be used in conjunction with your normal +3 shield, and you would gain the AC benefit of the +3 shield and the fire resistance of the +1 shield. This is of questionable utility in most circumstances, however.
Thorak 01-24-05, 11:44 PM	I think you could, technically, dual-wield shields to gain the benefits of their special abilities, if they have any. A +1 shield that protects you from fire could be used in conjunction with your normal +3 shield, and you would gain the AC benefit of the +3 shield and the fire resistance of the +1 shield. This is of questionable utility in most circumstances, however. Oh, I dunno. A defensive, +5 shield of Heavy Fortification, enchanted weapon-wise with +5 Defending. If you want to tank up, you wield that as your off-hand, and boost the +5 attack bonus into +5 AC. +12 AC bonus from a heavy shield, booya. And, at the same time, you've got the offensive shield. A light +5 (offensive) shield of Bashing, with an additional +5 in weapon enhancements, and +9 (IIRC, Bashing is a +1) in Shield powers as well. Thinks like Blinding, Resistances, Etc. You always get the +7 AC from the Heavy Shield, because you never make the bash attack with it. If you want to tank up, you get +5 more from Defending. You wield the offensive shield as your normal off-hand, getting +10 in weapon enchantments and +10 in special shield enhancements, including Bashing. And for your primary hand, Armor Spikes. I won't say it's an optimal build, and it's heavy on the magic items, but you can get some horrendous numbers of bonuses, considering you've got armor, and two handheld items, each enchanted as a +10 defensive and a +10 offensive weapon, giving you effectively 6 items where most characters have 3.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-25-05, 01:04 AM	I think that it would make a memorable fighter, both as a pc and a npc. Even if the rules say you can't, screw the rules and bring a NPC dual shield fighter in your game. The sheer shock will be worth it. After all, we DMs like to have our players mention a memorable NPC or encounter they found different from the usual stuff. For that reason only, do it.
penchant 01-25-05, 01:52 AM	I play 3.0 and unless they changed something, a regular shield bonus only counts toward one opponent. The benefit I could see in using two shields is that you could count the shield bonus towards multiple opponents. If you had two large shields (specially crafted) you could also declare that you are using them together against one target and they count as a single tower shield for the round. The highest enchantment is counted. When you are using them as separate shields then attacks on the side of the nearest shield count for that shields bonus. Ex Right arm +3 shield, Left arm +2 shield Rd 1 fighting 3 men, 1 in front and 2 flanking. The man on the right and in front are facing a +5 shielf bonus (+2 large, +3 ench) and the man on the left is facing a +4 shield bonus (+2 shield, +2 ench). They all miss. Your archers behind you take down the man on the left and right. Rd 2 fighting 1 man. You decare that you are holding the shields infront of you making 1 tower shield. You get the +3 enhancement plus concealment bonus.
Snommelp 01-25-05, 02:06 AM	I play 3.0 and unless they changed something, a regular shield bonus only counts toward one opponent. I can't find that in the 3.5 PHB or the 3.0 PHB. Where is this stated for 3.0 rules?
ShadowDragon8685 01-25-05, 03:36 AM	My favorite thing to do with shields is to get an Animated Tower Shield and use a two-handed sword in conjunction with it. :) You get all the bennies of a 2h sword, and you get to keep your board. :) That said... If you were willing to use two shields, I'd let their bonuses stack. Of course, remembering that you cannot make an ATTACK with an arm that's wielding a shield, lest you lose it's shield bonus. So yeah, you can have ungodly Armor Class, but not only is your attacking going to suck, but when you do attack, AC plummits. Given that, sure, you can have two shields...
HomebrewedMonster 01-25-05, 05:23 AM	Thorak is absolutely right, you cant physically block a hit with 2 shields at the same time, but the magic force field thingy from the second shield should be counted. in game terms...2 shields each with a +2 enchantment could only give you the shields normal bonus to AC +2 +2(for the second shield), and maybe protect you from flanking. but it wouldn't work with bucklers. although, come to think of it, you could block an axe or sword hit with two bucklers.... but bucklars give you the abilty to wield swords at -1. ouch real problem here. Thorak is incorrect, the enhancement bonus increasing the shield bonus, there is no enhancement bonus to AC. So whichever shield bonus he wishes to apply is granted to your AC. Also granting new abilities just for wielding two shields its ridiculious, there's a reason for feats. He wouldn't be protected from flanking, unless he had uncanny dodge or eyes in the back of your head feat.
HomebrewedMonster 01-25-05, 05:26 AM	That said... If you were willing to use two shields, I'd let their bonuses stack. Of course, remembering that you cannot make an ATTACK with an arm that's wielding a shield, lest you lose it's shield bonus. So yeah, you can have ungodly Armor Class, but not only is your attacking going to suck, but when you do attack, AC plummits. Given that, sure, you can have two shields... Well you must enjoy unbalancing the game if you do so. All you need to do is take one feat and your insane shield bonus stacking stays in effect when you bash. Improved Shield Bash, bam, now you can have three pieces of armor that all stack with each other. Well why not throw game balance out the window? While we're at it let mage armor and bracers of armor stack too, this way the DM won't hit any of the characters in the party.
Draco_Whitewind 01-25-05, 03:45 PM	okay, people, cool down. 1: two shields don't stack in the core rules. you can't use shield bash, or an attack with a shield and retail the AC. bucklers give a -1 to hit always if worn on an arm with a weapon. 2: shields work, with the exception of the tower shield in every direction against every opponent. ~Draco
Snommelp 01-25-05, 04:16 PM	okay, people, cool down. I AM CALM!!!!! :hoppingma In all seriousness, though, I am currently starved for a good debate, so I apologize now for any past or future heatedness in my posts.
Shard of Suzail 01-25-05, 06:26 PM	Using two normally weighted, real, shields must be the hardest and most impractical thing ever. I could understand it if it was two very small shields that you hold with the hand, but larger shields tend to be strapped to the arm itself and you present them to the opponent by facing him side on. I dont think there is even room in front of you for two shields to be held side by side. Not to mention the fact that it would be so awkward and the balance so poor that it would leave you vulnerable to attacks at any other point of your body (say behind you or to the side). In combat a shield works by being in the opponents main arc of combat while you move your weapon arm in a dangerous manner. Take the large round shield that Boromir uses in the fellowship of the ring film. You mainly dont move the shield to block, instead *you position yourself behind the shield* to dodge blows. Basically, you treat the shield like a static object and fight *around* it. Bucklers and weapons with a massive guard fitted, well, i think thats workable, but a proper pair of shields, well, that just aint gonna work right. And by god, if you give the opponent a nimble blade like a katana or a weapon that (if you believe them to be real) is designed to get around a presented shield, like a ball and chain and you are in real trouble. There are some fighting styles that didnt catch on...for a reason.
Thorak 01-25-05, 08:01 PM	Thorak is incorrect, the enhancement bonus increasing the shield bonus, there is no enhancement bonus to AC. So whichever shield bonus he wishes to apply is granted to your AC. Also granting new abilities just for wielding two shields its ridiculious, there's a reason for feats. He wouldn't be protected from flanking, unless he had uncanny dodge or eyes in the back of your head feat. Did you even read my posts? I specifically said, in response to that same post you're replying to; "I disagree. That bonus is an "enhancement" bonus. It enhances that specific shield. I see no reason why both would apply if both shield bonuses don't. As I've shown, at least IMHO, that they probably shouldn't." Since I'm saying the same thing you are, I don't see how that means I'm incorrect. The enhancement bonus from each applying was entirely Alcari's idea, not mine, nor did I ever suggest it.
HomebrewedMonster 01-25-05, 10:31 PM	Did you even read my posts? I specifically said, in response to that same post you're replying to; "I disagree. That bonus is an "enhancement" bonus. It enhances that specific shield. I see no reason why both would apply if both shield bonuses don't. As I've shown, at least IMHO, that they probably shouldn't." Since I'm saying the same thing you are, I don't see how that means I'm incorrect. The enhancement bonus from each applying was entirely Alcari's idea, not mine, nor did I ever suggest it. More along the lines of skimmed. Sorry, I was commenting on the enhancement bonus stacking that Al was saying and remembered your post mentioning enhancment bonuses.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-25-05, 11:02 PM	I play 3.0 and unless they changed something, a regular shield bonus only counts toward one opponent. You are playing 3.0 wrong, you are thinking of how tower shields worked in 3.0, regular shields added their bonus to AC against all opponents. I suggest you check the rules again.
penchant 01-26-05, 03:34 AM	I could be wrong. I may be confusing that with Dodge I'll look it up when I get home. Nice that noone cares when you have a creative idea, but they line up if you get a rule factually wrong. :P Incidentally there is an african throwing bar called a Kbinga that is designed to circumvent shields. The bar has spikes in different directions and when thrown one spike hits the shield, it leverages the bar around the shield hitting the person behind it. It comes from the fact that tribal africans used the shield as primary defense and had little to no armor. I've never seen it written up anywhere but I have it in my game.
eudas 01-26-05, 10:26 AM	using 2 shields is, except in very specific exceptional circumstances, just about the dumbest idea i've ever heard, second only to trying to convince someone that you know what you're talking about because you LARP. eudas
EarthForce 01-26-05, 03:53 PM	Hmm... Most magic items take up a slot. But they don't seem to have any rules on that for shields. So while you could possibly use two(And gain magic bonuses from both), it is up to what your DM allows. Rules or no rules. Just remember shield bashes usually aren't all that great.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-27-05, 12:55 PM	using 2 shields is, except in very specific exceptional circumstances, just about the dumbest idea i've ever heard, second only to trying to convince someone that you know what you're talking about because you LARP. eudas Ok. so, it's dumb to say that you PERSONALY tried it, only to have it work (with various degree of success). Must be better to speak only theoreticaly, without knowing what you're speaking about, without really trying to see if it would be doable. Even if it's the stupidest idea you've ever heard, there is a form in Wu Shu for 2 shields fighting (more like 2 small shields, kinda buckler-like). So, in FACT, it's possible. Please, when you post, try to post something that will either add something for the debate going on, or at least write respectfully.
Snommelp 01-27-05, 04:36 PM	Physician, heal thyself. I've never heard of Wu Shu, but I'm guessing that the 2 shield combat style you're referring to would translate into DnD as a PrC for a monk that allows shields and can make shield bash attacks as unarmed strikes. Doesn't change the fact that, if the shields block, only one shield will be blocking the opponent's weapon at any given time.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-27-05, 05:37 PM	Physician, heal thyself. I've never heard of Wu Shu, but I'm guessing that the 2 shield combat style you're referring to would translate into DnD as a PrC for a monk that allows shields and can make shield bash attacks as unarmed strikes. Doesn't change the fact that, if the shields block, only one shield will be blocking the opponent's weapon at any given time. Physician, learn to read. Where, pray tell, did I say you can use BOTH bonuses? I merely said that in real life, a style for 2-shield fighting DO exist. As for Wu Shu, it's a martial art covering a lot of styles (kinda kung fu... in fact, many consider it the "modern" kung fu). a style for 2-shields fighting should be covered in feats, not Prc. Exotic weapon proficiency fit the bill, as it's used to simulate knowing how to fight well with a strange (uncommon) weapon.
Snommelp 01-27-05, 06:39 PM	Physician, learn to read. Thank you, you proved my point most eloquently. Where, pray tell, did I say you can use BOTH bonuses? I merely said that in real life, a style for 2-shield fighting DO exist. I started reading this thread from the beginning, and the arguments from either side quickly began blurring together. Doesn't help that today's a busy day for me. As for Wu Shu, it's a martial art covering a lot of styles (kinda kung fu... in fact, many consider it the "modern" kung fu). Thanks. Now I'm one fact less stupid than I was. Maybe soon I'll be able to consider myself smart. a style for 2-shields fighting should be covered in feats, not Prc. Exotic weapon proficiency fit the bill, as it's used to simulate knowing how to fight well with a strange (uncommon) weapon. Perhaps. However, in order to keep from being unbalanced it would require several feats, or perhaps one feat with several pre-requisites, including Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense. Probably a BAB prerequisite as well. Apart from that, how exactly would the feat read? Because that could add more prerequisites, as well.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-28-05, 12:35 AM	Thank you, you proved my point most eloquently.. ??? Huh, ok. glad to help :) Still don't understand how.. Perhaps. However, in order to keep from being unbalanced it would require several feats, or perhaps one feat with several pre-requisites, including Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense. Probably a BAB prerequisite as well. Apart from that, how exactly would the feat read? Because that could add more prerequisites, as well. Right. Since I'm now in this discussion, let's ad my grain of sodium...What would you think of that? 2-shields fighting Prerequisite: Improved buckler defense, 2-weapons fighting, Improved shield bash, combat expertise, BAB +6 Benefits: You can fight with 2 buclkers. Treat each bucklers as a light weapon. You gain the full bonus of the off-hand shield and half the bonus of the "normal" hand shield (round down, minimum of 1). You can only use this feat if wearing medium or light armor (just light?). would that be balanced? I know there are rules for creating feats somewhere, but I personnaliy never read them. Is this feat ok?
Snommelp 01-28-05, 12:45 AM	Looks pretty good, except that bucklers don't have a damage listing for shield bash attacks. Likely nobody was expecting this sort of thing, or thought it possible. And make it just light or no armor. The fighting style fits a monk type better, and we want to preserve that.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-28-05, 01:00 AM	Agreed for light or no armor. For the buckler damage, I'd say D6. D4 would be more appriopriate, but I think D6 represent a shield bash more accuratly (and beside, since it's mostly for monks, it's a trade down from their usual damages). I think this would be cooler for a NPC to have, due to powergaming potential (NO Monkey Griped-Jotenbruded large tower shield sillyness... ). But it would make a fun foe to meet, just to break routine.
eudas 02-09-05, 01:06 PM	For the buckler damage, I'd say D6. D4 would be more appriopriate, but I think D6 represent a shield bash more accuratly (and beside, since it's mostly for monks, it's a trade down from their usual damages). I'd disagree, unless the PRC power or feat specifically gave them an ability to do more damage. Just to be complete, I'll quote the Shield Bash text (which, stupidly, is in the Equipment file under Shields instead of the Combat file under Combat Maneuvers). Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. Shield, light special 1d2 1d3 x2 — special Bludgeoning Spiked shield, light special 1d3 1d4 x2 — special Piercing Shield, heavy special 1d3 1d4 x2 — special Bludgeoning Spiked shield, heavy special 1d4 1d6 x2 — special Piercing I'd say that if a light shield only does 1d3 for a medium character, then a buckler would probably do even less. Buckler special 1d1 1d2 x2 — special Bludgeoning If the buckler was spiked, that *might* move it up so that it was like light shield, except Piercing instead of bludgeoning. Spiked Buckler special 1d2 1d3 x2 — special Piercing That's just IMO. Like I said, Wu Shu or not, fighting with two shields is, except in exceptional circumstances, a pretty dumb idea IMO. It looks good in a kung-fu action movie starring Jackie Chan or Jet Li or something, but swords are more popular than shields (as weapons) for a reason. :/ eudas
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-09-05, 01:15 PM	Like I said, Wu Shu or not, fighting with two shields is, except in exceptional circumstances, a pretty dumb idea IMO. It looks good in a kung-fu action movie starring Jackie Chan or Jet Li or something, but swords are more popular than shields (as weapons) for a reason. :/ Ever fought someone wielding a bat, a sword, a club or something like that? You probably have. You'll know how to fight against such a weapon. Try fighrting a foe who's wielding 2 shields. As you know nothing of his style, his attacks are harder to predict, therefore, you're at a disadvantage. Reason they are more popular: Ease of use. Reach. Cutting power. IMO, there's no such things as a "superior weapon" (better than the rest). you have a good warrior and a better warrior. You say twin-shield fighting is a dumb idea except under exceptional circumstances. Hum. Why? Did you ever SEE such a style in action? did you ever TRIED it? Did you ever FOUGHT against it? If you answer no to all these question, what are you basing this biased opinion on? I have to tell you from experience that's it surprsingly effective. to be very technical, shields ARE more popular than swords. If you had everybody who fought with a shield, you'd have more than those who fought with swords. Why? Axe and shield, mace and shield, spear and shield, etc... :)
fdnickerson 02-09-05, 01:52 PM	I don't understand the argument for two shield fighting. Sure you can hit someone with a shield, but its easier and usually far more effective to hit him with a sword. I can't think of anything you can do with 2 shields that you can't do with a sword and a shield. The only advantage a shield gives you is its defensive qualities and you cant use those if you're attacking with it. I'm not saying the idea is stupid, I just don't see any advantage in it.
fdnickerson 02-09-05, 02:11 PM	If you don't have any problems with using 3rd party sourcebooks, Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide has an exotic weapon called the tiger steel shield that lets you attack with it and still retain your AC bonus if you're proficient in it. Also, I think it lets you keep your monk abilities. This might make a 2 shield technique more feasible.
Ginyu549 02-09-05, 05:29 PM	Just adding my 2 coppers worth. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't use 2 shields. But... according to the rules you will not get the shield bonus from both because they are the same kind of bonus and thus do not stack. The same is true for the enhancement bonus since that is a part of the shield and not a seperate effect. Yes, you can have other abilities on the shields that may help. That's according to the rules... Now, from there it just depends where your DM will let you take it. "realistically" one "wu-shoo" guy fighting with some crazy oriental dagger buckler may be effective against some other oriental fighter or small group of fighters, but I kinda doubt it would work very well on a battlefield. I'm not super up on oriental battle history, but I don't remember hearing of anything like this making a difference in any battle I know of. "realistically" I can't see too much offensive capability in such a manuver. The only real "battlefield" use for such a thing as I see it is maybe for some kind of special shield bearers to come up and block arrows or something for the other troops (and I'm pretty sure such troops were used in several battles in both europe and asia). But they were solely defensive trrops meant to keep the big hitters from getting wasted before they got to hit someone. So, to sum up- realistically - maybe feasable for a monk or extremely limited fighter type - but mostly defensive. Now, that said, I don't see why the shields shouldn't stack when you are fully defensive. Certainly you won't block one attack with more than one shield, but you should at least get a cover bonus (especially against ranged attacks) for hiding behind two shields. An attacker might miss one of your shields, but hit the other one, thus defensively two shields should be better b/c you have twice the chance to block the attack, and the attacker cannot see your vital areas as easily. At any rate I refuse to believe that weilding two shields does nothing for your AC (which is how the rules are). Offensively I just can't justify two shield weilding. Let me enumerate the reasons: 1:- weapon qualities must be seperately enchanted on your shield, costing you twice as much for one piece of equipment, and leaving you vulnerable to a sunder attack which can remove both your primary defensive item and your primary offensive weapon at the same time. 2:- Damage sucks. 3:- It is debateable if two weapon fighting is really any better than a 1d10 weap and a shield. The dam. potential vs. hit ratio is pretty even. 4:- By the rules there is no defensive benifit. If you choose to alter the rules most likely any defensive benifit you reap will necessitate a full defence action which means you can't attack at all. 5:- Fighting with two weapons requires spending feats to get good. Feats that could be used for other things. Not to mention all the improved Buck def, Improved Shld bash, etc... 6:- If you use the monk option you will be giving up your better than average unarmed attacks for a crappy 1d2or3+ST, and loose a bunch of monk abilities. (again by the rules). I'm sure there are more reasons I am forgetting, And I see a lot of posts regarding ways to get around this, so if you don't like my comments please disregard them. Don't think I am all against this concept either, I thought long and hard about it at one point b/c I had a character who could have done the same thing. (a gnome no less - stupid sm weap dam - even worse for shiled bash) but instead I decided to just use one shield with two hands (a much better tactic in my opinion with no rules complications) once you get power attack you can really start building up the damage, even with a gnome (since most of the damage from those shield bash crappy is ST dam anyway.) Well, have fun all!!! hmmm...I should work on a signature... :plotting:
Kobold Horde 02-09-05, 06:09 PM	IMO, two shields could be used on one enemy (although with a few penalties, like not being able to run), weather or not they were tower shields. However, I would say that you couldnt attack while using both of them on one unit. ( :( ) however, my idea is probably bogus and should not be trusted without further confirmation.
fallabel 02-09-05, 07:57 PM	I just don't see how you could use two (non-buckler) shields to guard against a single attack. With any shield larger than a buckler, it'd be impossible to even have both shields on the same side of your body. If you want to use your whole turn for a full defense action, hiding behind two shields, why not just carry a tower shield and take cover behind it instead? As far as using shields for attack, I have an idea of a modified buckler. Throughout history, shields have been used that had sharpened edges. They were light enough to be wielded easily (so in DnD terms, bucklers). I'd say it would make sense for a monk to wear a sharpened buckler on each arm. The AC bonuses would stack, since a buckler does not cover much of your body, so two would be better defensively. Further a monk (or a martial artist in general), could punch and deal slashing damage with a single move. Try it yourself: throw a hook punch, and after (pretending to) connect with your fist, bend your elbow a bit more and slice across with your forearm. Just an idea, but I'd say it would be feasible.
fdnickerson 02-09-05, 08:04 PM	As far as using shields for attack, I have an idea of a modified buckler. Throughout history, shields have been used that had sharpened edges. They were light enough to be wielded easily (so in DnD terms, bucklers). I'd say it would make sense for a monk to wear a sharpened buckler on each arm. The AC bonuses would stack, since a buckler does not cover much of your body, so two would be better defensively. Further a monk (or a martial artist in general), could punch and deal slashing damage with a single move. Try it yourself: throw a hook punch, and after (pretending to) connect with your fist, bend your elbow a bit more and slice across with your forearm. Just an idea, but I'd say it would be feasible. See post #54
fallabel 02-09-05, 08:05 PM	Ah, ok. I wasn't sure about what exactly a 'tiger steel shield' was.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-10-05, 01:32 AM	Just adding my 2 coppers worth. "realistically" one "wu-shoo" guy fighting with some crazy oriental dagger buckler may be effective against some other oriental fighter or small group of fighters, but I kinda doubt it would work very well on a battlefield. I'm not super up on oriental battle history, but I don't remember hearing of anything like this making a difference in any battle I know of. "realistically" I can't see too much offensive capability in such a manuver. The only real "battlefield" use for such a thing as I see it is maybe for some kind of special shield bearers to come up and block arrows or something for the other troops (and I'm pretty sure such troops were used in several battles in both europe and asia). But they were solely defensive trrops meant to keep the big hitters from getting wasted before they got to hit someone. So, to sum up- realistically - maybe feasable for a monk or extremely limited fighter type - but mostly defensive. You're right. As with most exotic weapons, they were not used on the battlefield, the spear ruled the asian battlefield. They were used as ceremonial weapons, martial art exhibition, tournament, practice, or by rare warriors who used a strange weapon (and gained more fame for it...). Offensively I just can't justify two shield weilding. Let me enumerate the reasons: You're right. It's not really advantageous to a PC. On the other hand, a dual-shield wielding monk or fighter could be a memorable NPC, as he would be unlike anything they have faced before (from a lfavor point of vue...). I think it's more for NPCs. hmmm...I should work on a signature... :plotting: join us!! But try to restrain yourself to a few lines. nothing's clustering these boards more than overly long signatures. Ok, your quotes MAY be clever, but what's the saying? Good things come in small packages? :D If you REALLY have to have a long sig, use a spoiler. That way, those who want to read it will be able to and you won't take too much space.
Zao Fato 02-10-05, 07:53 AM	The main reason that people even think about this is that the idea is kinda cool. I seen this series called Samurai Jack, and on Multiple occasions he used two shields to defend himself, and it was really cool, sure Jack was like Master of all fighting styles, but the point still remains. On rules, you can use two Shields, as they are counted as One Handed Weapons, a Buckler cannot attack as it is too small to do damage. Light Shields, and Large Shield (Like the Roman Shields) where use in Shield Bash attacks across history. If you have a light Shield and a Heavy Shield, you take the same penalties as fighting with a one handed weapon and a light weapon. You only gain the greater of the two AC bonuses, but any special abilities stack, unless of course they won't, like two Fire Resistance Shields would not stack. Two fight with two shields, you need a few feats and two weapon fighting, it is more of a cool concept than a hard character, although I know a few ways to improve that. And with an Artificer in your party you can change those two +5 Enchantment Bonus Shields into a +5 Enchantment Bonus, and a +5 Circumstance Bonus to AC, although the standard +2 for the Heavy Shield will override the other shield as that is unchanged.