Can my gnoll pc speak common? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can my gnoll pc speak common? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Druid of Gilbert
09-19-05, 04:53 AM I'm in the process of rolling up a 2nd level gnoll ranger, and I'm stumped as far as languages go. The Monster Manual says that gnolls only speak gnoll as an automatic language, and that common is a bonus language for them. But the Player's Handbook says that all pcs speak common- does that refer to monster pcs or only the core PH races? I'll juggle ability stats to give him a higher intelligence (if it's the only way to give him a +1 INT, and thus common as a bonus language). But if he automaticly starts out knowing common, I'd rather keep his INT low and his STR high.
JD
09-19-05, 05:40 AM I'd talk this one over with your DM. What's the gnoll's background? If he's lived among other gnolls all his life and never really been out into the wide world, it wouldn't make much sense for him to be fluent in common. However, if he's spent much time among the other races he should know a good deal of common.

Personally, I'd rule that he does know common (at least enough to get by). There's a great chance for RPing here as well: have him be unsure of certain words in common, and use makeshift compound words of his own design. Given that he doesn't have fantastic INT, that'll surely net you some roleplay XP.
nyysjan
09-19-05, 07:19 AM Gnolls speak Gnoll as by RAW (Monster Manual, pages 130-131)
Common is one of the bonus languages
Xaxor
09-19-05, 07:29 AM Don't forget that Gnoll have 2 racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment. There's a progression in Races of the Wild.
eudas
09-19-05, 10:12 AM GNOLL
...
—Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
...

The PHB rule is referring only to the PHB races.

Gnolls speak only Gnoll by default, just as humans speak only Common by default. If the character has a +1 or higher INT mod, then you can pick Common as one of the bonus languages that your gnoll knows.

eudas
Kobold Stew
09-19-05, 10:37 AM ...and herein lies one key problem with the gnolls as written:

To be viable in most campaigns, you need to speak common.
Only a gnoll with Int 12 (14 base) can learn common.
A gnoll with 12 Int can invest in three class skills; but...
Gnolls have only two class skills: they must invest cross-class.

(On other posts, I have ranted about the problems of being a "clever gnoll".)

It is very difficult to make a viable gnoll character across equal ECL when skills are penalized heavily, on top of other things.

When I have raised this on CO boards, the problem has not seemed interesting to most people there.

In your case: if you want a low Int, then you need to spend two of your precious few skill points to learn common, nd have suboptimal bonuses to Spot and Listen. the first few levels of ranger can make up for that, but, with Survival (which you will want to max for tracking) you will have little else in skills.

It's a tough life; but somebody has to lead it....
GroopaKoopa
09-19-05, 10:39 AM Or you just buy the Language for two skill points!
Some classes only need to pay one skill point though...
eudas
09-19-05, 10:51 AM ...and herein lies one key problem with the gnolls as written:

To be viable in most campaigns, you need to speak common.
Only a gnoll with Int 12 (14 base) can learn common.
A gnoll with 12 Int can invest in three class skills; but...
Gnolls have only two class skills: they must invest cross-class.

(On other posts, I have ranted about the problems of being a "clever gnoll".)

It is very difficult to make a viable gnoll character across equal ECL when skills are penalized heavily, on top of other things.

When I have raised this on CO boards, the problem has not seemed interesting to most people there.

In your case: if you want a low Int, then you need to spend two of your precious few skill points to learn common, nd have suboptimal bonuses to Spot and Listen. the first few levels of ranger can make up for that, but, with Survival (which you will want to max for tracking) you will have little else in skills.

It's a tough life; but somebody has to lead it....

Hm. Interesting.

But, let's see here.

character with 14 int goes Gnoll, which is -2 int, leaving 12 INT.
gnoll picks common for his bonus language.

character gets skill points equal to (4+1)(2+int) = 5*3 = 15.
with 2 monstrous hit die, the character can max its class skills (listen and spot) at 5 ranks each, leaving 5 skill points.

hm, i see the conundrum there.

you can just work around that by putting 1 point less into listen or spot, leaving you with 6 skill points to put into something cross class as you mention, which will result in no "wasted" skill points, and then in your later class levels bringing your listen/spot back up to max.

the numbers change if your int is higher or lower; a gnoll with 10 int gets 10 skill points and is perfectly happy speaking gnoll and maxxing spot/listen. or they can put 4 points in each and spend 2 points learning common, which isn't too bad either.

a gnoll with 16-2 = 14 int gets 20 skill points, which gives him 10 for listen/spot, 2 bonus languages, and 10 skill points to spend on cross class stuff. that's a nice even number, no wasted skill points there.

probably not surprising that the CO board wasn't terribly interested; it's not particularly a conundrum to solve on the theoretical level. the problem's solution is all going to be found locally, i.e. in the specific character's stats, or in the player's individual choices for the character... too many variances in what you could do to solve the issue makes it not really an optimization problem per se but rather just an individual character design choice.

eudas
Terraneaux
09-19-05, 12:54 PM In general when turned into a pc race most monsters pick up common as a free language. FR has some good examples of this and i would strongly suggest asking your dm to house rule this one.
eudas
09-19-05, 01:03 PM well, if you can convince your DM to house rule that you should have a flying pink pony, too, you can have one, but let's keep the discussion on what the rules state and not on what various DM's choose to allow.

eudas
amethal
09-19-05, 05:37 PM well, if you can convince your DM to house rule that you should have a flying pink pony, too, you can have one, but let's keep the discussion on what the rules state and not on what various DM's choose to allow.

eudasIf I was the DM, I wouldn't allow any PCs who couldn't speak to the rest of the party.

It appears by the rules Gnolls can't speak common.

I recommend asking the DM for common as a free language. Its hardly game-breaking.
eudas
09-19-05, 06:11 PM If I was the DM, I wouldn't allow any PCs who couldn't speak to the rest of the party.

It appears by the rules Gnolls can't speak common.

I recommend asking the DM for common as a bonus language. Its hardly game-breaking.

Common *IS* a bonus language for gnolls.
See post #5:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7290684&postcount=5

But what you said was free language, which i took to mean that you thought that they should get it, well, for free (which they don't; they have to take it either as an INT mod bonus language or pay skill points to learn it.)

Maybe just a slight miscommunication between us, but it could've also been avoided by critical reading skills.

And, no, it's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but most people (well, myself, at least) come on these boards to discuss the game as it's written. If we want to discuss "1001 house rules", then we don't really need rulebooks for that, do we?

eudas
Kobold Stew
09-19-05, 07:09 PM probably not surprising that the CO board wasn't terribly interested; it's not particularly a conundrum to solve on the theoretical level.

<snip>

it not really an optimization problem per se but rather just an individual character design choice.

eudas

Agreed! The CO problem was trying to make a viable gnoll build that is not obviously lacking (when measured across equal ECL). The problem of skill points is one reason why gnolls have it tough; I hadn't meant to suggest that was the problem as a whole.

When a half-orc sorcerer is consistently stronger than a gnoll ranger, there is some reason for concern.

:P
amethal
09-20-05, 06:53 PM Common *IS* a bonus language for gnolls.
See post #5:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7290684&postcount=5
Maybe just a slight miscommunication between usThanks, I've edited my post.
it could've also been avoided by critical reading skills.Right, I'll bear it in mind.
And, no, it's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but most people (well, myself, at least) come on these boards to discuss the game as it's written. If we want to discuss "1001 house rules", then we don't really need rulebooks for that, do we?I was discussing the problem, and suggesting a solution. You discuss what you want to discuss, and I'll continue to discuss what I want to discuss.
Phrennzy
09-20-05, 07:24 PM In my campaign - assuming that I would allow a gnoll PC (doubtful), you'd have two choices.

Take the Higher Int, to get the bonus language, and choose Common.

Or

Use skill points to buy the language. I might let you spend only one skill point at first, and know broken common, but I would expect you to speak in broken English.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Druid of Gilbert 09-19-05, 04:53 AM	I'm in the process of rolling up a 2nd level gnoll ranger, and I'm stumped as far as languages go. The Monster Manual says that gnolls only speak gnoll as an automatic language, and that common is a bonus language for them. But the Player's Handbook says that all pcs speak common- does that refer to monster pcs or only the core PH races? I'll juggle ability stats to give him a higher intelligence (if it's the only way to give him a +1 INT, and thus common as a bonus language). But if he automaticly starts out knowing common, I'd rather keep his INT low and his STR high.
JD 09-19-05, 05:40 AM	I'd talk this one over with your DM. What's the gnoll's background? If he's lived among other gnolls all his life and never really been out into the wide world, it wouldn't make much sense for him to be fluent in common. However, if he's spent much time among the other races he should know a good deal of common. Personally, I'd rule that he does know common (at least enough to get by). There's a great chance for RPing here as well: have him be unsure of certain words in common, and use makeshift compound words of his own design. Given that he doesn't have fantastic INT, that'll surely net you some roleplay XP.
nyysjan 09-19-05, 07:19 AM	Gnolls speak Gnoll as by RAW (Monster Manual, pages 130-131) Common is one of the bonus languages
Xaxor 09-19-05, 07:29 AM	Don't forget that Gnoll have 2 racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment. There's a progression in Races of the Wild.
eudas 09-19-05, 10:12 AM	GNOLL ... —Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. ... The PHB rule is referring only to the PHB races. Gnolls speak only Gnoll by default, just as humans speak only Common by default. If the character has a +1 or higher INT mod, then you can pick Common as one of the bonus languages that your gnoll knows. eudas
Kobold Stew 09-19-05, 10:37 AM	...and herein lies one key problem with the gnolls as written: To be viable in most campaigns, you need to speak common. Only a gnoll with Int 12 (14 base) can learn common. A gnoll with 12 Int can invest in three class skills; but... Gnolls have only two class skills: they must invest cross-class. (On other posts, I have ranted about the problems of being a "clever gnoll".) It is very difficult to make a viable gnoll character across equal ECL when skills are penalized heavily, on top of other things. When I have raised this on CO boards, the problem has not seemed interesting to most people there. In your case: if you want a low Int, then you need to spend two of your precious few skill points to learn common, nd have suboptimal bonuses to Spot and Listen. the first few levels of ranger can make up for that, but, with Survival (which you will want to max for tracking) you will have little else in skills. It's a tough life; but somebody has to lead it....
GroopaKoopa 09-19-05, 10:39 AM	Or you just buy the Language for two skill points! Some classes only need to pay one skill point though...
eudas 09-19-05, 10:51 AM	...and herein lies one key problem with the gnolls as written: To be viable in most campaigns, you need to speak common. Only a gnoll with Int 12 (14 base) can learn common. A gnoll with 12 Int can invest in three class skills; but... Gnolls have only two class skills: they must invest cross-class. (On other posts, I have ranted about the problems of being a "clever gnoll".) It is very difficult to make a viable gnoll character across equal ECL when skills are penalized heavily, on top of other things. When I have raised this on CO boards, the problem has not seemed interesting to most people there. In your case: if you want a low Int, then you need to spend two of your precious few skill points to learn common, nd have suboptimal bonuses to Spot and Listen. the first few levels of ranger can make up for that, but, with Survival (which you will want to max for tracking) you will have little else in skills. It's a tough life; but somebody has to lead it.... Hm. Interesting. But, let's see here. character with 14 int goes Gnoll, which is -2 int, leaving 12 INT. gnoll picks common for his bonus language. character gets skill points equal to (4+1)(2+int) = 5*3 = 15. with 2 monstrous hit die, the character can max its class skills (listen and spot) at 5 ranks each, leaving 5 skill points. hm, i see the conundrum there. you can just work around that by putting 1 point less into listen or spot, leaving you with 6 skill points to put into something cross class as you mention, which will result in no "wasted" skill points, and then in your later class levels bringing your listen/spot back up to max. the numbers change if your int is higher or lower; a gnoll with 10 int gets 10 skill points and is perfectly happy speaking gnoll and maxxing spot/listen. or they can put 4 points in each and spend 2 points learning common, which isn't too bad either. a gnoll with 16-2 = 14 int gets 20 skill points, which gives him 10 for listen/spot, 2 bonus languages, and 10 skill points to spend on cross class stuff. that's a nice even number, no wasted skill points there. probably not surprising that the CO board wasn't terribly interested; it's not particularly a conundrum to solve on the theoretical level. the problem's solution is all going to be found locally, i.e. in the specific character's stats, or in the player's individual choices for the character... too many variances in what you could do to solve the issue makes it not really an optimization problem per se but rather just an individual character design choice. eudas
Terraneaux 09-19-05, 12:54 PM	In general when turned into a pc race most monsters pick up common as a free language. FR has some good examples of this and i would strongly suggest asking your dm to house rule this one.
eudas 09-19-05, 01:03 PM	well, if you can convince your DM to house rule that you should have a flying pink pony, too, you can have one, but let's keep the discussion on what the rules state and not on what various DM's choose to allow. eudas
amethal 09-19-05, 05:37 PM	well, if you can convince your DM to house rule that you should have a flying pink pony, too, you can have one, but let's keep the discussion on what the rules state and not on what various DM's choose to allow. eudasIf I was the DM, I wouldn't allow any PCs who couldn't speak to the rest of the party. It appears by the rules Gnolls can't speak common. I recommend asking the DM for common as a free language. Its hardly game-breaking.
eudas 09-19-05, 06:11 PM	If I was the DM, I wouldn't allow any PCs who couldn't speak to the rest of the party. It appears by the rules Gnolls can't speak common. I recommend asking the DM for common as a bonus language. Its hardly game-breaking. Common IS a bonus language for gnolls. See post #5: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7290684&postcount=5 But what you said was free language, which i took to mean that you thought that they should get it, well, for free (which they don't; they have to take it either as an INT mod bonus language or pay skill points to learn it.) Maybe just a slight miscommunication between us, but it could've also been avoided by critical reading skills. And, no, it's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but most people (well, myself, at least) come on these boards to discuss the game as it's written. If we want to discuss "1001 house rules", then we don't really need rulebooks for that, do we? eudas
Kobold Stew 09-19-05, 07:09 PM	probably not surprising that the CO board wasn't terribly interested; it's not particularly a conundrum to solve on the theoretical level. <snip> it not really an optimization problem per se but rather just an individual character design choice. eudas Agreed! The CO problem was trying to make a viable gnoll build that is not obviously lacking (when measured across equal ECL). The problem of skill points is one reason why gnolls have it tough; I hadn't meant to suggest that was the problem as a whole. When a half-orc sorcerer is consistently stronger than a gnoll ranger, there is some reason for concern. :P
amethal 09-20-05, 06:53 PM	Common IS a bonus language for gnolls. See post #5: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7290684&postcount=5 Maybe just a slight miscommunication between usThanks, I've edited my post. it could've also been avoided by critical reading skills.Right, I'll bear it in mind. And, no, it's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but most people (well, myself, at least) come on these boards to discuss the game as it's written. If we want to discuss "1001 house rules", then we don't really need rulebooks for that, do we?I was discussing the problem, and suggesting a solution. You discuss what you want to discuss, and I'll continue to discuss what I want to discuss.
Phrennzy 09-20-05, 07:24 PM	In my campaign - assuming that I would allow a gnoll PC (doubtful), you'd have two choices. Take the Higher Int, to get the bonus language, and choose Common. Or Use skill points to buy the language. I might let you spend only one skill point at first, and know broken common, but I would expect you to speak in broken English.