Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atraitys 04-30-04, 01:03 PM	We are about to play in an adventure. I chose to play a Half-Orc Barbarian, and for a weapon I chose the Orc Double Axe.::D I am told that, despite there being orc blood in my PC, I still have to take the Exotic Weapon FEAT in order to use this weapon. :mad: There have been valid arguments amongst ourselves for and against this weapon being able to be used by my PC with and without this feat. :confused: Some say heritage/race has nothing to do with the ability of using the weapon, it's 'EXOTIC' end-of-story.:sad: :sad: This PC only has 1 FEAT and this would depend on my decision to use that only FEAT for Exotic Weapon, or the Two-Handed Fighting FEAT.:behold: Which brings me here. Do I/Should I have to take the EXOTIC WEAPON FEAT to use an axe of my PC's Race? or Is this something that can be looked over BECAUSE of my PC's Race? The book mentions things about tis, but only magical items, not race-related weapons. ALL answers are appreciated.
Beamup 04-30-04, 01:12 PM	The book covers racial weapons quite well. Certain races treat their racial weapons as martial instead of exotic (see Gnome, Dwarf), others get racial proficiency with some weapons automatically (see Elf). The Half-Orc does not get such an ability, so by the standard rules, you do not have proficiency. Period. But, it could be implemented as a race variant (see page 110). If your Half-Orc was raised among Orcs (if not, there's no justification for it at all) then he might have proficiency. But, you'd have to give something up for that. There's nothing in the race description that's cultural, so it's hard to see what it would be. Nevertheless, you'll have to take some significant penalty to get a free feat.
lekpic 04-30-04, 01:19 PM	I agree, the proficiency with a weapon is more about training than just being that race. I think the argument then becomes, what is the background of your PC? If raised by Orcs, then it should be available for free. But at a heavy cost. Remember also some get these types of feats for free, for example, take a cleric with the War Domain. They get a weapons proficiency in their diety's favored weapon for free, but then again that is due to the labors of learning to be a cleric. TRAINING! It is honestly up to your DM. If it were me, you justify the means... raised by orcs... then you get the feat. 'nuff said.
ehrin 04-30-04, 01:29 PM	Think of it this way... using that weapon is a skill handed down generation to generation by orcs. You aren't an Orc. Sorry, but the hard fact is, you are only half an orc at best. Perhaps no orc was around to teach you. Perhaps no orc would teach you. Racial prejudices exist against half-breeds frequently. As the others have said, it all depends on your background. Work with your DM to determine: did you grow up human, orc, neither one? that may help strengthen your argument.
Atraitys 04-30-04, 01:43 PM	I have created a backround for my character, and he had an orc father that trained him in the use of an Orc Dbl Axe. That can be established without a doubt. But It was mentioned before that I can have this 'free feat' but at a "heavy cost. What kind of "heavy cost" are we talking about here? I have established my knowledge of that particular weapon, as it would have obviously belonged to the father of the PC and that the father trained him in the use of it. I 'd understand that if this was allowed I could only be entitled to 2 weapon fighting ONLY with an Orc Dbl Axe, (after taking the 2 weapon feat), and not your typical heavy and light alotment without taking the feat again. Or have weapons restrictioned only to those the PC's father trained him with/in, such as those not there would be considered exotic. so on and so forth....
SnowbearK 04-30-04, 01:44 PM	Because all Orcs use double-axes...right. :rolleyes: It's an exotic weapon even among orcs, a weapon only their elite ranks would use. The bodyguards of the chieftain, the tribal champion, the gladiators, the berserkers (barbarians). Not common warriors, scouts, craftsmen, hunters, etc (ie, the bulk of the orc community). Falchions, Javelins, and Greataxes are the most common military weapons for orcs according to the SRD. [edit: posted at the same time. As for the character background, generally "my father (whatever)" is one of the biggest excuses to get free crap I've ever heard -- and it's done often. Your father trained you, great! That's how you became proficient in it and spent the feat for it. You don't need a free feat for it. Going by your logic, I could say "my father was a Master of the Order of the Bow and taught me everything he knows, so I should get Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, and Specialization FREE, but only with composite longbows! Training is represented by your skills and feats that you already have, you don't need freebies. Most characters pick one or two weapons and rarely IF EVER use a different weapon, so saying "these feats only apply to this one type of weapon" is a cheap load of bull]
Atraitys 04-30-04, 04:23 PM	There is no need to take that tone with me! :sad: I was asking a simple question to see if it could be allowed, OBVIOUSLY we know how you feel about it. I was just trying to make some sense about it, the backround story tries to explain/justify it, the arguments about it had valid points both ways. I have NO PROBLEM about NOT getting the "free feat", I just wanted it justified/explained, that's all. Thus, for my first feat I will take the exotic weapon feat. It's not a big deal, I was hoping for a little bit more understanding about my lack of knowledge on this particular subject.
Steelwill 04-30-04, 07:40 PM	This is an opinion, but if I were DM'ing your character, and you made it reasonable why you would be familiar with this Orc weapon (your previous post explains your Orc father taught you, good enough) then I would have no problem with you having Orc Double Axe Proficiency as a free feat. Seeing as how Dwarves get Dwarven Waraxe/Urgosh, Gnomes get Gnomish Hooked Hammer, etc... it really isn't that far fetched. I would incidently allow a Half-Elf to get the elven racial proficiencies for free too if it were a part of his backstory that he had elven parenting. My 2 cents.
Genocide 04-30-04, 09:06 PM	I do sorta agree with SnowBearK, but then again... Why the hell would someone pick that nice of a weapon to start out with... I tried to start out with a Falchion for my Druid, but i rethought about it so i changed it back to Scimitar P.S. SCIMITARS AND FALSHIONS KICK A**!:smirk:
UZI 05-01-04, 12:02 AM	I've pointed this out to others before: orcs don't get automatic proficiency with the Orc Double Axe. Quoth the SRD Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons, preferring those that cause the most damage in the least time. Many orcs who take up the warrior or fighter class also gain proficiency with the falchion or the greataxe as a martial weapon.
Thorak 05-01-04, 12:17 AM	To further add to the "orcs don't get it regardless" comments; An Orc Double Axe can be seen as the elite Orcish weapon. Kind of like the Katana is seen as the elite Rokugan weapon. Does this mean that every Rokugan human gets Katana for free? No. It means that the weapon is a symbol of their culture, but there's no special training for the typical member.
SnowbearK 05-01-04, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by Atraitys I was asking a simple question to see if it could be allowed, OBVIOUSLY we know how you feel about it. I was just trying to make some sense about it, the backround story tries to explain/justify it, the arguments about it had valid points both ways. I have NO PROBLEM about NOT getting the "free feat", I just wanted it justified/explained, that's all. Atraitys, I'm quite happy knowing I've made my opinion obvious. It cuts down on misunderstandings. My opinion however, stems from over two decades of listening to people whine about how their "superneatokewl background story" ought to give them a load of freebies, or "restricted freebies" that aren't really restricted at all. This is usually supposed to make their character special or "unique," but mostly people do this just to get something for nothing. The kind of people who saw Star Wars, then wanted to play WEG's Star Wars and start out with a lightsaber just like Luke did, because their father was a Jedi Kahniggit who died fighting the Empire, then when grilled about it, spout off lines from the movie, scenes they read in the comics/novels in order to cobble together some kind of history for this dead Jedi who inexplicably left a spare lightsaber just hanging around. The tools are built into the game already to accomodate any reasonable/original character background, there isn't supposed to be a need to start out knowing/able to do everything. If there is, then the player should probably sell of his books, buy a cheap computer, and hack game code.
Beamup 05-01-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Steelwill Seeing as how Dwarves get Dwarven Waraxe/Urgosh, Gnomes get Gnomish Hooked Hammer, etc... it really isn't that far fetched. Seeing as how Dwarves don't get Dwarven Waraxe/Urgosh and Gnomes don't get Gnomish Hooked Hammer, this argument is totally invalid. The ONLY racial proficiencies in the PHB are the elvish ones - and none of those are Exotic. "Treat as Martial" is a far cry from being proficient.
Atraitys 05-01-04, 12:33 PM	Originally posted by SnowbearK My opinion however, stems from over two decades of listening to people whine about how their "superneatokewl background story" ought to give them a load of freebies, or "restricted freebies" that aren't really restricted at all. This is usually supposed to make their character special or "unique," but mostly people do this just to get something for nothing. The kind of people who saw Star Wars, then wanted to play WEG's Star Wars and start out with a lightsaber just like Luke did, because their father was a Jedi Kahniggit who died fighting the Empire, then when grilled about it, spout off lines from the movie, scenes they read in the comics/novels in order to cobble together some kind of history for this dead Jedi who inexplicably left a spare lightsaber just hanging around. I agree whole-heartedly with you. My question was presented as a lack of knowledge on what a race benefit(s) can provide. I can also understand how the backround story idea can be abused to get freebies. My original backround story was not created to obtain freebies, such as feats, skills or weapons, it was just a story and it happened to include that the PC's father trained him in the use of an orc axe, nothing more. My understanding, wrong as it may have been at that time, was that I believed that because he was half-orc, the exotic weapon feat wasn't needed because of the "orc blood" issue and the proficiancy with an orc axe was a given because of race. This was obviously an oversight/misinterpretation on my part and I thank you for explaining it to me. I will leave this in the hands of my DM. If he allows me to have the free proficiancy on the merits of the story, fine. If NOT, I will just have to take the exotic weapon feat, it really is no big deal. My fear was taking the feat and 4-6 levels later, finding out I never had to becasue of the race issue, and be stuck with a wasted feat. Again, Thank you.
Joe Gold 05-01-04, 04:02 PM	I say give him the proficiency. He's a half-orc, isn't that enough of a draw-back already?:D
Sensei Gith 05-01-04, 05:16 PM	Half-Orcs suck, no two ways about it. So IMC, all orcs get weapon familiarity with with either the orc double axe or the bastard sword, depending on whether they were raised by orcs. The justification for the latter is that an orc raised among humans would find that he could, due to his size and strength, easily wield slightly larger weapons that humans would need special training for.
ImmortalBlueMage 05-01-04, 06:59 PM	I'm with sensai. Half-Orcs are painfully underpowered compared to the other races, with the possible exception of Humans. You need to throw the poor Orc player a bone here or there...
trapspringer 05-01-04, 10:23 PM	Take a flaw from unearthed aracana. They give you a drawback, and you get a feat for free. You could take a flaw like shaky, which hampers your ranged combat, this could represent your focusing on the complex double weapon, while ignoring your archery practice.
Slagger the Chuul 05-02-04, 05:51 AM	If you really want to give the orcs (and half-orcs) a free weapon proficiency, it would make more sense to give them proficiency with a weapon that most orcs use, like the falchion.
allenchan 05-02-04, 06:50 AM	Originally posted by Beamup Seeing as how Dwarves don't get Dwarven Waraxe/Urgosh and Gnomes don't get Gnomish Hooked Hammer, this argument is totally invalid. The ONLY racial proficiencies in the PHB are the elvish ones - and none of those are Exotic. "Treat as Martial" is a far cry from being proficient. Treating it as Martial would make a lot of characters proficient with it, since many base classes are proficient with all martial weapons. So yes, Dwarves and Elves clearly have certain advantages. Also look at page 154 in the Complete Warrior on balancing racial Weapon Familiarity. Raises interesting points on adapting things into your campaign. In any case, if I were the DM I would allow it, but not based on any conclusive facts, it just seems -right-.
rogue_lettuce 05-02-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by lekpic It should be available for free. But at a heavy cost. Hahahaha, dude, check out your amazing mental skillz. I think you may have made a small mistake there:D
Steelwill 05-02-04, 12:07 PM	Wow, I am amazed at how upset this topic is making people. I am sorry for other's who have had players act so childish that now they find themselves having to act hostile on a message board, its a shame really that it brings them down to that level in the middle of a civilized conversation. With regards to Beamup going off on my original post, 1 I stated quite clearly that it was an opinion post of the "If I were the DM" flavor, and 2 Dwarves and Gnomes receiving exotic weapon proficiencies as a free martial weapon proficiency is quite powerful of an advantage, especially for the Dwarf who is likely to play a complimentary class that would make use of such a boon, favored class for them is Fighter. I know this is not the same as the elves being proficient with swords and bows, no matter what class they are, but those are also not exotic weapons either. No class in the game gets exotic weapon proficiency as a class feature, many get simple and martial (all) as class features, so the trade off power balance wise is not too different. Thus my (balance) reasoning for why I would allow the half-orc to use the Orc Double Axe as a racial familiarity in my campaign, and again MY OPINION. I also listed a good (flavor) reason for it as well, if he was a Half-Orc with a predominantly Orcish upbringing, I even extrapolated this flavor reasoning to Half-elves in my post with predominantly Elven upbringing. From my "point of view" weapon familiarity is not genetic, but rather a cultural product, so this made sense to me. I never at any point claimed the RULE was that Orcs get Orc Double Axe, I am VERY aware that they do not. Clearly however, offering a point of view only, and some flavor to go with it, instead of driving the RULE down someone's throat, garners me some attitude on the board. If in the future you feel the need to quote and reply to my OPINION with such hostility, please rethink it and not reply. Thank you.
pokemaniacbill 05-02-04, 01:19 PM	Your DM has the final say. It seems understandable that you'd want it as a Martial Weapon (Treated as such due to racial affinity). However, no one here can really change what your DM says.
Remnant 05-02-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by pokemaniacbill Your DM has the final say. It seems understandable that you'd want it as a Martial Weapon (Treated as such due to racial affinity). However, no one here can really change what your DM says. Psshh... your "logic" has no effect on me! If I get angry enough, and type in all caps, then his DM will do exactly what I will! Anyway, even if he decides not to allow you a double-axe freebie (which isn't all that wonderful a weapon anyway, especially since you won't be starting with a compliment of dual-wielding feats), all you have to do is burn a single feat to get it.
Iron Chef Vastrox 05-02-04, 06:33 PM	I'm in agreement with Sensei Gith and Joe Gold. If you run the numbers, a Half-Orc is severely gimped when compared with all other PHB races. It was even by the admission of Andy Collins that the half-orc was intended 'a beginner race for beginner players'. There are 4/7 Core Races that receive a bonus geared toward weapons: Dwarves and Gnomes have racial weapon familiarity; Elves get outright proficiencies; Halflings receive a +1 bonus to attacks with thrown weapons. Each of these also have on-combat related skills and save bonuses/immunities. Out of the remaining 3, Humans receive a free feat (which could be used on a weapon proficiency) and bonus skill points, and Half-Elves get bonuses to skill checks and toned-down Elven resistances. Half-Orcs get Darkvision and a net -2 ability adjustment. There is nothing unbalanced in granting Half-Orcs a racial familiarity with the Orcish Double Axe. Atraitys is clearly not trying to powergame, he simply wants to have access to an Orcish Weapon justified by backstory without gimping his character build from the onset. I'm not singling Remnant out for any particular reason other than his post contains two points which I would like to make in favor of Atraitys' Half-Orc. Originally posted by Remnant a double-axe freebie ... isn't all that wonderful a weapon anyway The double axe is not the 'Spiked Chain' of Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. For the cost of a feat, you gain a light offhand weapon that deals 1 more point of damage when TWF, with the option of using it as a poor THW. all you have to do is burn a single feat to get it. A single feat is precious. Especially for a class like Barbarian which does not receive bonus feats and has class-based abilities like Rage and Damage Reduction that can be augmented by feats.
Glak 05-03-04, 12:14 PM	Half-Orcs are bit bit short on abilities but they are great at melee. So to improve the half-orc don't make his melee even stronger, give him something not related to melee. Just seems obvious.
olshanski_home 05-03-04, 12:53 PM	As a DM, I agree with Iron Chef Vastrox. Half Orcs are gimped to begin with. I usually give them Scent as a free feat at level 1. It would be perfectly reasonable to swap Scent for Exotic Weapon Proficiency [orc double-axe]. I am a very strict DM, I don't allow Miniatures Handbook rules, and very few other rules from other splatbooks. This is one of my very rare "lenient" ruling. My other "lenient" ruling is that sorcerers get the feat "eschew materials" for free at level 1, but this virtual feat only works with spells cast as a sorcerer (if they take levels of wizard or cleric, they are back to needing material components).
Sensei Gith 05-03-04, 11:16 PM	It would be perfectly reasonable to swap Scent for Exotic Weapon Proficiency [orc double-axe]. But Scent is a good, powerful feat. Half-Orcs are bit bit short on abilities but they are great at melee. So to improve the half-orc don't make his melee even stronger, give him something not related to melee. Just seems obvious. "Great at melee?" Not really. I'd take a dwarf any day of the week, for pretty much any class. I don't expect them to be good wizards, but if their schtick is melee, they'd better be damn good at it (or at least, as good as the other races).
Kary Wanzer 05-04-04, 06:08 AM	Is Scent even a feat? I was under the assumption that Scent is a racial or extraordinary ability? It seems a bit too powerful to be obtainable as a feat...
Naeron 05-04-04, 06:28 AM	Originally posted by allenchan Treating it as Martial would make a lot of characters proficient with it, since many base classes are proficient with all martial weapons. So yes, Dwarves and Elves clearly have certain advantages. Also look at page 154 in the Complete Warrior on balancing racial Weapon Familiarity. Raises interesting points on adapting things into your campaign. In any case, if I were the DM I would allow it, but not based on any conclusive facts, it just seems -right-. Many Bases Classes? Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin. The other 7 base classes are not generally proficient in martial weapons. Allowing Half-Orcs to treat the double axe as a martial weapon is not giving them much of an advantage as they will have to take the TWF Feat to utilise the weapon to its best ability. Without this the Orc Double Axe is inferior to a Great Axe.
olshanski_home 05-04-04, 12:21 PM	Scent is not a feat, but the 3.0 DMG suggested as a variant allowing half-orcs to have it at character creation. Scent is very nice... helps with knowing when an invisible opponent is nearby... it also works pretty well with tracking.
D+1 05-04-04, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by Atraitys Some say heritage/race has nothing to do with the ability of using the weapon, it's 'EXOTIC' end-of-story. [...] Do I/Should I have to take the EXOTIC WEAPON FEAT to use an axe of my PC's Race? or Is this something that can be looked over BECAUSE of my PC's Race? Note that your character is a HALF orc, not an orc. You don't get all the same benefits as a full orc any more than a half-elf should get all the benefits of their fully Elven parent. The axe is an ORC axe. So by the book, yes, you have to use the Exotic Weapon Feat. However, there's almost no decent reason why it couldn't or shouldn't be a racial ability for half-orcs. It poses no greater threat to "game balance" than using two seperate one-handed battleaxes which would have the EXACT same outcome in the game - except the use of the exotic weapon feat. But perhaps the DM doesn't see the use of the Orc Double Axe in his campaign as remotely common even among full-blooded Orcs. It's up to the DM but it's an EASY rule-0 call.
Beamup 05-04-04, 02:16 PM	Originally posted by D+1 It poses no greater threat to "game balance" than using two seperate one-handed battleaxes which would have the EXACT same outcome in the game - except the use of the exotic weapon feat. The exact same outcome except for the ability to take 1.5x damage instead of TWFing and taking an extra -2 to TWF attacks. The double weapon is substantially superior.
D+1 05-06-04, 01:18 AM	Originally posted by Beamup The exact same outcome except for the ability to take 1.5x damage instead of TWFing and taking an extra -2 to TWF attacks. The double weapon is substantially superior. It is exactly the same as using a single battleaxe - a one-handed weapon - with two hands. Using an orc double axe and TWF or using two battleaxes and TWF the combat works the same. Using an orc double axe two-handed or a single battleax two-handed the combat works the same. ...except for the exotic weapon feat. Whether using the double weapon or TWO seperate weapons all the other feats and whatnot required are identical.
Beamup 05-06-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by D+1 It is exactly the same as using a single battleaxe - a one-handed weapon - with two hands. Except that with the double axe you can choose to TWF. Double axe is more effective. Using an orc double axe and TWF or using two battleaxes and TWF the combat works the same. Except that you get an additional -2 to all attacks with the two battleaxes because they are one-handed instead of light. Double axe is superior. Using an orc double axe two-handed or a single battleax two-handed the combat works the same. Identical to your first point. Double axe wins again! ...except for the exotic weapon feat. Whether using the double weapon or TWO seperate weapons all the other feats and whatnot required are identical. Entirely wrong. Read the rules. With a double weapon you can choose to either use it two-handed and get 1.5x strength or TWF - making it strictly superior to a same-damage weapon used two-handed. When you TWF it is treated as one-handed and light, making it strictly superior to two same-damage one-handed weapons. In one style choice, you get the same effect with a battleaxe but are locked into that choice instead of having flexibility. With the other style choice, you take an additional -2 to all attacks. In all situations the orc double axe is superior to battleaxe(s).
markhaus 05-06-04, 12:52 PM	Half-orcs are obviously to powerful as is, i mean, they get a +2 str while ONLY losing 4 points from other stats. AND they get darkvision. I mean, sheesh they put the dwarve's ability to find traps, +2 con at the cost of -2 cha, 2 exotic weapons treated as martial, bonus to crafts, darkvision, bonus against giants, bonus to orcs and goblins and encumbrance rules to shame. I almost forgot, they are treated as orcs so they can use ALL the weapons with orc only description (im sure there is one in this DMG somewhere....) (that was sarcasm to those who may think that half orcs are overpowered) :looloo:
markhaus 05-07-04, 10:29 AM	Almost forgot to mention that the Urgosh is a double weapon.