Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 06-24-05, 05:58 PM	This isn't a normal complaint, and it's one that's liable to get me beaten with sticks around here, but... I think my stats are too high! We generated characters with the usual 4d6 drop lowest. Through no fault of my own -- sheer luck -- I managed to roll two 18s and a 17, and no scores below 10. I was happy about it at first, but now we've finished one module and are moving into a second, and I'm starting to feel weird about this. My character's stats add up to the equivalent of 60 points if we were using point-buy. I have stupid high stats! I'm playing a barbarian... who uses two kukri. It's a sub-optimal build, which may offset the insane stats to some degree. What do you think? Compared to all but one other player, I'm crazy powerful. We're playing with a first-time DM, and I've been considering suggesting that the whole party rebuild their characters with 25 or 28 point buy. To some degree, I feel strange having a character who is essentially superhuman -- my race gives me a +2 Dex, so I have 20 Dex and 18 Str. We're playing an EBERRON campaign, too, where the heroes are supposed to be less like superheroes and more like normal people in exceptional circumstances. What do you think? Is it possible for one character to have stats that are just too high? What should I do? Just shut up and sit down? Continue taking numerically weak choices for weapons and such, so that they balance out the high scores? Should I go ahead and try to get everyone on a point-buy system?
Retinal Haze 06-24-05, 06:09 PM	i had a high level damage monkey that had 47 str, when he did the right things. I would say its fine for you to have high stats, just be sure to roleplay them correctly. Or you could take a hit to one or two of your stats and roleplay that out. The brute without much wis/int or whatever
Lord Schpungus 06-24-05, 06:10 PM	No. Your stats are fine. If anything your DM just needs to throw harder things at you. The TWF-kukri action definitely keeps you from doing anything powerful, or even really useful. Talk to the other players about nerfing them before you tell on yourself to your DM. I have a feeling that they might be angry if you up and took away their rolled stats without discussing it.
Mikal 06-24-05, 07:26 PM	This isn't a normal complaint, and it's one that's liable to get me beaten with sticks around here, but... I think my stats are too high! We generated characters with the usual 4d6 drop lowest. Through no fault of my own -- sheer luck -- I managed to roll two 18s and a 17, and no scores below 10. I was happy about it at first, but now we've finished one module and are moving into a second, and I'm starting to feel weird about this. My character's stats add up to the equivalent of 60 points if we were using point-buy. I have stupid high stats! I'm playing a barbarian... who uses two kukri. It's a sub-optimal build, which may offset the insane stats to some degree. What do you think? Compared to all but one other player, I'm crazy powerful. We're playing with a first-time DM, and I've been considering suggesting that the whole party rebuild their characters with 25 or 28 point buy. To some degree, I feel strange having a character who is essentially superhuman -- my race gives me a +2 Dex, so I have 20 Dex and 18 Str. We're playing an EBERRON campaign, too, where the heroes are supposed to be less like superheroes and more like normal people in exceptional circumstances. What do you think? Is it possible for one character to have stats that are just too high? What should I do? Just shut up and sit down? Continue taking numerically weak choices for weapons and such, so that they balance out the high scores? Should I go ahead and try to get everyone on a point-buy system? Point buy is sucktastic. There's nothing wrong with having stats that high. If you wern't meant to, then there'd be a rule against it, wouldn't there.
Cymraegmorgan 06-24-05, 07:55 PM	Point buy is sucktastic. There's nothing wrong with having stats that high. If you wern't meant to, then there'd be a rule against it, wouldn't there. Absolutely. If you were not meant to have a chance at all eighteens, then your DM would have been using a point buy. Best not to complain about having good luck, lest the Gods of Luck curse you with natural 1s on all of your combat rolls. :D
HappyDragon 06-24-05, 08:04 PM	Man, I'm absolutley ecstatic whenever I roll anything over 14. :rolleye2: Where's my stick..... :D Seriously though, be happy with the rolls you got. It's nice to want to try and keep things on equal footing for the rest of the group, but as a group it's nice to have someone around that can take a bit of abuse. Being the Barbarian in the group I'd say you'll be needing it, if you are the main meatshield you'll be needing all the help you can get. The fact that you're actually asking this type of question leads me to believe you are not the type to start abusing the power you have with the better stats either. The only problem may be with the DM if he is a first timer, and may not know how to balance encounters to challenge you without completely annihilating the rest of the party. Talk with him and if he can hadle it, no worries. I can understand your concern with the Eberron theme, but as normal as Eberron characters are....they are still meant to be the heroes, you just have a slight advantage over some others. Not to mention there's more than enough things in Eberron that wont care what your stats are. Especially when it comes to more social settings, your character could be at a loss....roleplay those flaws and you could equal the playing field there as well. If your group makes it to higher levels I would think all involved in your party will be glad for your higher stats. There's some nasty things out there, don't hinder yourself now so you wont be able to deal with them in the future. Out of curiousity, are you playing a Shifter? If so you could suggest to the DM to play up in socal settings the negative stereotype many people have towards that race. Hope it goes well though. :)
Dunelord 06-24-05, 08:06 PM	Run with it man, point buy sucks goat. If the other players have an issue with it they should have said something before they rolled up characters. I mean I for one would rather have a pal who is powerful then one who wasn't.
Iron Cobra 06-24-05, 08:18 PM	As long as you can count above 10, no stat is too high ;)
vaskoff 06-24-05, 08:19 PM	no way, as long as you roleplay/ the dm throws hard enough stuff you should be ok. I too roll insanly high. My stats for rolling are usually like 18 17 15 14 13 12.
Salla 06-24-05, 08:21 PM	I use point buy exclusively, not because I fear someone winding up with high stats like these, but because I would rather someone not get saddled with stats that are too low. Truthfully, as a DM, if I did random roll and a player came up to me and said, "I'd like to lower a couple of my stats," I'd not have a problem with it. The original D&D game (in the red box ... yes, I'm THAT old) let you lose 2 points from one stat to boost another by one point (STR goes from 12 to 10, DEX from 16 to 17, for example), which I don't think is a bad rule for rolled stats. Sometimes, your character concept calls for a low stat.
Jarric 06-24-05, 08:37 PM	Play the game with the stats you rolled. If for osme reason you find it to make you too powerful and take away from the game suggest to the DM that you should encounter some ghouls who could steal part of your soul and some of your stats. Also, you could break and leg and have it not heal properly and lose some on of your dex.
Nom 06-24-05, 08:39 PM	Congratulations. You have discovered one of the risks of using a high-variance system to generate ability scores. The difference is that you seem to consider getting "lucky" to be a quirk rather than a right. Purely from a balance and challenge perspective, I'd strongly recommend using 25 point buy. Especially with a new DM. With 25 points, you're at the correct point for CR balancing and designed power level. With more (or less!), the DM needs to compensate when designing encounters, and by rights should also adjust XP awards (if a level 5 party gets fewer XP than a level 3 party, a character with +8 ability score bonus should too - this is what LA tries to calibrate). If you or your group are willing to rebuild on 25, do so. Aside from being balanced, it adds a lot more challenge to the game playing with lower scores. As you've seen, it can take away the feeling of achievement when you knowing that you've won because of a handicap (35 pts in your case), not because you've done well. If not... If it were me, I'd rather accept an LA than deliberately make poor choices. But that's a personality thing. Of course, LAs have their own issues, especially with low level characters.
Molitor 06-24-05, 10:53 PM	Wow those ARE some good rolls. I would not say or do a thing about them. In real life if you are a musclebound, genius, Adonis are you going to complain. This is essentially "deal with what life gives you". If you really want to pull your own teeth, multiclass till it hurts. By the way I've noticed the better stats your guy has the less lucky he is. Tell me if this is true with you, would ya?
solbergb 06-24-05, 10:57 PM	What I tend to do in a situation where I roll much better than my party members is assign stats to non-optimal things. Oh sure, max my strength on a barbarian and give him a decent (but not insane) constitution, and put the lowest stat in intelligence for roleplay, but crank his charisma and wisdom. Now you've got a barb who can make a will-save, who can listen REALLY well and is an intimidation and animal handling machine :) Or you can be like Roy Greenhilt in Order of the Stick and be the party fighter whose combined intelligence and wisdom outscore anyone else in the party. Another way to go is the multiclass route, kinda like in old-D&D dual-classing. If you make a mystic theurge or arcane trickster, the multiclass mechanics in and of themselves will soften up the character. The very high die rolls just even up the score a little that you're losing with the caster levels.
braindead345 06-25-05, 12:33 AM	"No stat below 10" is a problem for me. You have every right to have a 3 in the stat of your choice. A low stat is not a handicap unless you make it one. Think of the role-playing potential for a fighter with only a 7 Constitution. With the +1 Ablitity score /4 levels, there is room for eventual improvement to average.
Mirikon 06-25-05, 12:45 AM	This isn't a normal complaint, and it's one that's liable to get me beaten with sticks around here, but... I think my stats are too high! We generated characters with the usual 4d6 drop lowest. Through no fault of my own -- sheer luck -- I managed to roll two 18s and a 17, and no scores below 10. I was happy about it at first, but now we've finished one module and are moving into a second, and I'm starting to feel weird about this. My character's stats add up to the equivalent of 60 points if we were using point-buy. I have stupid high stats! I'm playing a barbarian... who uses two kukri. It's a sub-optimal build, which may offset the insane stats to some degree. What do you think? Compared to all but one other player, I'm crazy powerful. We're playing with a first-time DM, and I've been considering suggesting that the whole party rebuild their characters with 25 or 28 point buy. To some degree, I feel strange having a character who is essentially superhuman -- my race gives me a +2 Dex, so I have 20 Dex and 18 Str. We're playing an EBERRON campaign, too, where the heroes are supposed to be less like superheroes and more like normal people in exceptional circumstances. What do you think? Is it possible for one character to have stats that are just too high? What should I do? Just shut up and sit down? Continue taking numerically weak choices for weapons and such, so that they balance out the high scores? Should I go ahead and try to get everyone on a point-buy system? What do I think? You have a confluence of good luck and a class that is easily one of the biggest damage dealers out there. I'm going to assume you're still in the low levels. If that's the case, you're still in the 'melee classes own everyone' part of the game. Around level 5 the spellcasters start to shine. By level 10, you're falling behind, especially if you're not breaking through DR. By level 15, you're gonna be kissing your lucky stars for the high stats, because that and rage are all that's gonna be keeping you in there, with things like Stoneskin and creatures with big ACs and big damage potential themselves. What to do about the imbalance now? Chat with the DM. Get him to include things that will help the other characters to shine. More RP situations, for instance. Or incorporeal creatures. Or perhaps your character has a phobia about lycanthropes, that you haven't told anyone about, and the next arc is about wererats? Before you ask people on the boards for help, first chat with the DM, and see if there isn't anything you two can't work out.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-25-05, 03:35 AM	Wow. I've never heard a player complain about having stats that are too high before. I, personally, would just run with it. If you're really that concerned about it, which you appear to be, talk to your DM about it.
Odimax 06-25-05, 04:39 AM	One of my current characters has very high ability scores, also. Smirk S'milee Human Rogue, level 3 Strength 14 Dexterity 18 Constitution 13 Intelligence 15 Wisdom 14 Charisma 17 These are the highest scores I have ever rolled. I took Improved Initiative, so now my initiative modifier is a +8. I'm up to third level now, and my sleight of hand skill is up to +14. Plus, I have several other good skills, such as hide, spot, move silently, appraise, escape artist, diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff. I love this character's personality and I have done a lot of cool things with him already, so I really hope he doesn't die, because I kind of doubt I will ever have another character with scores this high. My response to Keenath is this: As long as you are working together with your party members to achieve success as a team, I don't see why anyone would mind your high ability scores. In fact, it actually helps the party to have a powerful ally. I always try to use my talents to improve the strength of our group.
R-man 06-25-05, 05:12 AM	If it is bothering you then it is easy just start looking at some more unusual builds that you wouldn't normally look at. Skald perhaps (Bard/Barbarian)? Also remember if the campaign is going into higher levels then the factor that you are a melee-monkey will eventually downgrade your effectiveness vs the spellcasters anyway and your high stats will have less of an effect. If fact the higher the level of the party the less that high stats matter for party balance and the more that the build and the equipment matter.
Keenath 06-25-05, 11:34 AM	If fact the higher the level of the party the less that high stats matter for party balance and the more that the build and the equipment matter.This is what I sensed, really -- if you have super-high scores, that still won't make a ton of difference by level 10 -- the difference between a 14 and an 18 is only +2, which is easily lost in the magic-item noise. What I tend to do in a situation where I roll much better than my party members is assign stats to non-optimal things. Oh sure, max my strength on a barbarian and give him a decent (but not insane) constitution, and put the lowest stat in intelligence for roleplay, but crank his charisma and wisdom.Funny you mention it -- I put my 17 in charisma, which means a 15 after racial adjustment (yeah, she's a shifter), and I'm the second most charismatic person in the party. There are two problems, and Nom has put his finger on one of them. Our DM is a first-timer, and we're playing through the prepublished modules (Next up: Whispers of the Vampire's Blade), but we have 5 people in the party, and two of us have ungodly stats (though I'm a bit better than the other super-statter). The DM let some of the other players re-roll stats after seeing mine, just on the theory that they needed to be somewhat closer to what I had. So, my problem? We absolutely tore up the first module. To be fair, the DM neglected to make all the encounters 25% harder to account for having five PCs, but of those five, three are melee types (I'm a barbarian, and then we have two monks, a kalashtar psion, and a warforged artificer), which tend to be strong at early levels. And with our ability scores -- which, again, are a particularly big bonus at early levels -- we're not challenged by the fights we have. Honestly, I don't trust the DM to work out how to keep it balanced; he's still in the stage of being afraid to change what's on the printed page. I remember being that way when I DMed the first time; it took until I sat down and wrote my own campaign for the first time that I got used to using a module as source material, but changing anything I want to on a whim. I think, as Nom said, we'll be more balanced for our level at 25 point buy, or possibly 28 (if the DM wants to let us keep a LITTLE of the power we rolled up). And since somebody mentioned this above -- don't be silly. Obviously it'd have to be the entire group agreeing to accept this plan. I'm not going to get the DM to just declare by fiat that everyone has to redo their character. Heck, I'm gonna miss the 18 strength if we do this. I liked having a climb stat so high that I could go up any wall. I'm going to miss having dex so high that I practically can't wear armor. I just think it'll be better for the group to do it this way. (By the way, do you really think two-kukri fighting is so far underpowered compared to a two-handed weapon? If I hit with both, I still deal 1.5x STR and 2d4, and with two rolls I'm pretty likely to crit on at least one... The only disadvantage is that I can't use power attack, but I'm taking feats that go a different direction anyway.)
Bobitron 06-25-05, 12:07 PM	I prefer a point buy to minimize the balance issues that can come up in these situations. I think it is very responsible to think of the situation in this way, Keenath. As has been stated, a character with extremely high stats at low levels throws off the adventure by creating a character who has an abilty level much higher than that of the party. Saying the the DM should just throw more difficult challenges at the player is unfair and unrealistic. The party overcomes encounters as a group, not as 4-6 individuals each with their own challenge to fight.
Baph Methis 06-25-05, 12:28 PM	I was in a group for awhile where every one had high stats due to loaded rolling methods. When every character in the group has at least 1 18 and probably 2 or 3 16-17's, it becomes very difficult for the DM to balance encounters. Monsters of our CR or even a little higher were just incredibly easy, but if he went even higher, we would just get crushed. I don't know if only one character in the group having high stats would matter that much though.
Mikal 06-25-05, 01:13 PM	[QUOTE=braindead345]"No stat below 10" is a problem for me. You have every right to have a 3 in the stat of your choice. A low stat is not a handicap unless you make it one. Think of the role-playing potential for a fighter with only a 7 Constitution. [QUOTE] That's bull. There's equal 'roleplaying potential' for any stat, either high or low. One doesn't need a handicap for a good roleplaying opportunity :rolleyes:
wonlee76 06-25-05, 01:28 PM	High Stats for a PC is not a huge problem and you shouldn't worry about it in the long term. In the short term (from level 1 to level 10), presuming the rest of the group has "normal" stats in comparison to yours, they will probably feel a bit useless. Also makes it tougher for a DM to tailor encounters that challenges your PC since you are a more difficult PC to kill compared to the others. In the long term, the disaparity will go away. That's why I like point buy or some kind of point buy system. Everyone gets an equal amount of stat points to distribute. Nice, simple, and no stat envy from other players.
Bobitron 06-25-05, 01:33 PM	One doesn't need a handicap for a good roleplaying opportunity :rolleyes: Nor do they need high stats to be interesting, either. Good point.
Mikal 06-25-05, 01:49 PM	Nor do they need high stats to be interesting, either. Good point. Exactly! People need to get off this worry about stats and just enjoy em.
Keenath 06-25-05, 03:18 PM	Exactly! People need to get off this worry about stats and just enjoy em.Well, I'd agree, except that a bizarre stat set (either amazingly high or very low) makes the player effective (or ineffective) out of proportion to the party's level. Yes, the effect will become smaller over time, but until that happens, the party is lopsided and the DM is having trouble providing proper challenges. It's a problem when it turns out that, because of an amazingly high strength, one of the PCs almost can't miss the BBEG, and as a result the encounter isn't climactic -- it's just another fight.
HappyDragon 06-25-05, 04:12 PM	It could also just be a very good learning experience for the first-time DM. Often the best way to learn is to make mistakes. Over time he'll start to realize what the problems are and make the necessary adjustments. Give him time, no one gets it 100% right the first time, have faith in the DM and give him a chance to discover things himself along the way.
Callista 06-25-05, 04:52 PM	you're a non-magic-user, so you'll be glad for those high stats when you get up to a higher level; but right now they're just making the party unbalanced... right? So, why not ask your DM if he can find a way of temporarily reducing your stats? My own idea would be to give your character a cursed item which he can't drop unless he breaks the curse (or via Wish/Miracle). Obviously, breaking the curse is a perfect plot hook for whatever your DM wants you to do... :)
Mikal 06-25-05, 06:22 PM	Well, I'd agree, except that a bizarre stat set (either amazingly high or very low) makes the player effective (or ineffective) out of proportion to the party's level. Yes, the effect will become smaller over time, but until that happens, the party is lopsided and the DM is having trouble providing proper challenges. It's a problem when it turns out that, because of an amazingly high strength, one of the PCs almost can't miss the BBEG, and as a result the encounter isn't climactic -- it's just another fight. Except that if you're fighting a BBEG, if all he has is a semi high AC he's pathetic. One minor magic item or spell can cause that super high str character to miss quite a bit. Just give the BBEG or whatever something that confers upon him a miss chance and viola: It's a team game again! A one note BBEG isn't a true BBEG. He's just another fight, no matter what the PC's are packing. (not to mention various 2nd level wizard spells can be cast on the other characters to bring their stats up to the level of the high statted person for when it matters the most.)
RogerWilco 06-25-05, 07:28 PM	I think that because you ask this question here you'll be fine. Give the DM some feedback about that he should make the encounters a little harder. I can only relate to my own experiene playing a rogue with stats(8, 15, 11, 9, 9, 4) in a party that also had a ranger with (18, 17, 14, 15, 16, 14). The ranger had no trouble with encounters the rest barely survived, until he decided to play with a low AC. My group prefers Point Buy, because of this. In second Edition I played a rogue(thief) for years, actually wanting to play a Ranger, but never rolling the stats to play one. Point I want to make: it depends on how you play if it's a problem, but expect to be chalanged a lot less as the more mediocre characters in your group. Protect them! Have patience with your DM, it takes a lot of time to master that role, at least a year.
Nom 06-25-05, 10:51 PM	This is what I sensed, really -- if you have super-high scores, that still won't make a ton of difference by level 10 -- the difference between a 14 and an 18 is only +2, which is easily lost in the magic-item noise.People keep claiming this, but I'm not sure it's true. +2 is like having a 16kgp fully stackable item. One might not be a big difference, but when this applies to four or five scores you're easily talking 80,000 gp, which is over half the recommended wealth of a 14th level character! I also think that many people regard secondary scores too little. With limited advances and money for magic, you can only afford to seriously raise one or two scores, but the others certainly help. Con, Wis, Int and even Cha can all prove useful. In some ways, I think it is this same mistake that brings on the "cookie-cutter" accusation with point buy. With a 25 point buy, you have to make some hard choices about which scores get sacrificed. My personal preference is to avoid sacrificing anything much, and thus don't put anything above 14. Others prefer a 15, 16 or (rarely) an 18. Ultimately, this works much the same as rolling - you rank your scores and sort based on that, but rather than have predetermined fixed values you can play one value off against the other. It is a "cookie-cutter", but it's one of those bendable ones. You're restricted in the circumference, but the actual shape is up to you. I just think it'll be better for the group to do it this way.I agree. Heck, you already have a beneficial handicap in that you have 5 PCs instead of 4, but the 3.5 XP system will balance that out (by only granting 4/5 expected XP). The system already has a way to help out underpowered characters - it's called the 'level', and is designed to scale nicely with the system. In contrast, benefits that are level orthogonal (such as non-standard ability scores) require all sorts of tweaking (eg LA) to bring them back in line. (By the way, do you really think two-kukri fighting is so far underpowered compared to a two-handed weapon? If I hit with both, I still deal 1.5x STR and 2d4, and with two rolls I'm pretty likely to crit on at least one... The only disadvantage is that I can't use power attack, but I'm taking feats that go a different direction anyway.)Initially it is a little weaker, but it gains more benefit whenever you add a flat per-attack bonus to damage (eg sneak attack, morale bonus, ...).
Keenath 06-26-05, 01:26 AM	In some ways, I think it is this same mistake that brings on the "cookie-cutter" accusation with point buy. With a 25 point buy, you have to make some hard choices about which scores get sacrificed. My personal preference is to avoid sacrificing anything much, and thus don't put anything above 14. Others prefer a 15, 16 or (rarely) an 18. Ultimately, this works much the same as rolling - you rank your scores and sort based on that, but rather than have predetermined fixed values you can play one value off against the other.It depends on the class. In a melee-heavy class, I'll tend to moderate my scores and keep them to 14s, making sure to put a 14 in any abilities that I have racial bonuses in, so as to take advantage of that fact, while getting the maximum number of ability points across the board. If I were playing a caster, I'd happily drop most of my other scores to boost the primary casting stat to a 16 or 17, but some casters (particularly clerics) tend to need good scores in the physical, and I'm more likely to make do with a moderately high casting score instead, there. I'm pretty happy about having an against-type Barbarian who has above-average charisma and low wisdom. Intelligence, I try to keep around 10 for the skill value, but I may let it drop to 8, depending on whether this is going to end up at 25 or 28 point-buy (I can deal with only 3 skill points per level...) Right now, I'm STR 18, DEX 20, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 13, and CHA 15 after my racial adjustments. If we go for a 25 point-buy, I'm looking at STR 14, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 12 (this is after racial adjustments). If the DM lets us use 28 points, I'd raise Con to 14 and either Cha to 13 (which would cost two points), or Int to 10. I'm not real sure about the Int... I want the four extra 1st-level skill points, but I'm not sure my character concept matches somebody who is as smart as your average person. Hmm.. on the other hand, if I consider the intelligence of the average person... ;) Just kidding. Bleh. If I were human, I'd have the human skill point bonus and not have to worry about it, but... that isn't the case. Initially it is a little weaker, but it gains more benefit whenever you add a flat per-attack bonus to damage (eg sneak attack, morale bonus, ...).Or when you get Improved Critical. ;) +X weapons are good flat bonuses (two +1 weapons are much cheaper than one +2 weapon!), and getting a weapon of speed means even MORE attacks, further increasing damage potential...
Mikal 06-26-05, 01:29 AM	One MAJOR problem with point buy is that it kills non spellcasters. With access to polymorph, shapechange, and wildshaping, a spellcaster can dump all their points into their casting stat, wait a few levels, and polymorph, getting super stats for most anything they need physically.
Keenath 06-26-05, 03:37 AM	That doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Even if I have three wonderful physical scores, a spellcaster can easily find a creature that out-bulks me. That's not a weakness of point buy in particular -- no human-range scores can outdo what shapechanging magic can do. Anyway, outside of Wildshape, if the caster can turn himself into it, he can turn ME into it -- and I have a better BAB than he does. Buff magic is almost always better served by going to the person most able to use it -- that is, a fighter. Shapechange is, yes, personal range, but it's also ninth level and beyond the range of most discussions.
Nom 06-26-05, 10:58 AM	It depends on the class. In a melee-heavy class, I'll tend to moderate my scores and keep them to 14s, making sure to put a 14 in any abilities that I have racial bonuses in, so as to take advantage of that fact, while getting the maximum number of ability points across the board. If I were playing a caster, I'd happily drop most of my other scores to boost the primary casting stat to a 16 or 17, but some casters (particularly clerics) tend to need good scores in the physical, and I'm more likely to make do with a moderately high casting score instead, there. ...Which ultimately is my point. Point buy or not, there are rough guidelines as to where the higher scores should go, but a lot of room for variation on the details. Point buy is constrained by a fixed "total", while random generation is constrained by a fixed but initially undefined array. One MAJOR problem with point buy is that it kills non spellcasters. With access to polymorph, shapechange, and wildshaping, a spellcaster can dump all their points into their casting stat, wait a few levels, and polymorph, getting super stats for most anything they need physically.That doesn't really have anything to do with anything. ...I agree with Keenath. Further, at least with point buy a caster can choose how much they sacrifice to get a really high casting score, and will have to sacrifice to do so. It's predictable. With rolling, the caster could get a really good casting score without sacrificing anything, or a really poor one. Assuming a decent distribution of rolls, any efficiency in ability score use isn't going to vanish just because they are pulled out of a probability distribution rather than a fixed size bin. You can toss a rolled 6 (or 5, or 7, or 9, the exact value is unimportant) in Str as easily as a chosen 8. More of a problem is the one that Keenath originally asked about - one character, caster or not, can be so across-the-board better than another that it becomes very difficult for the DM to balance encounters; it's a bit like having a 2-3 level difference in party members. Admittedly, at higher levels the cross-class problem - where a character with good scores but no particular skill in an area can outperform a specialist with poorer scores - goes away, but a 40 point fighter is still going to be about 2 levels "better" than a 25 point fighter (or pick other class to suit). Or when you get Improved Critical. ;) +X weapons are good flat bonuses (two +1 weapons are much cheaper than one +2 weapon!), and getting a weapon of speed means even MORE attacks, further increasing damage potential...A weapon of speed depends on whether you read speed like haste (only affecting one weapon) or that it affects each weapon. Improved Critical (and Weapon Focus) don't provide any particular advantage to TWF, since IC provides a multiplicative effect (ie affects all weapons equally) while WF provides a to-hit bonus (all equal again). Rather, TWF gains benefit from constant effects that increase damage. bless, Weapon Specialisation, sneak attack, and so on. Similarly, per-hit special abilities (eg disruption, vorpal and wounding) are more valuable with TWF due to the greater chance per round of triggering.
Sir Todd 06-26-05, 11:10 AM	Your worrying too much! Really. I have had stats from as low as 14,12,10,10,8,8 to as high as 18,18,18,18,16,16 by high level it didn't matter. Treasure tended to be the most important factor, not stats, by high level. Getting good stats is fun. Go enjoy the 'kill power' of your character while it lasts. The biggest drawback of low stats is survival at low levels. But then a single bad roll can kill anyone. PS: all those stats from 4d6 drop low method. I made the high stat one into a Mystic Theurge and the low stat one into a Rogue. Both were fun to play.
Keenath 06-26-05, 11:25 AM	Rather, TWF gains benefit from constant effects that increase damage. bless, Weapon Specialisation, sneak attack, and so on. Similarly, per-hit special abilities (eg disruption, vorpal and wounding) are more valuable with TWF due to the greater chance per round of triggering.Not following you here. In particular, if you're using two of the same weapon, then IC applies to both. Critical rates are valuable in proportion with the number of attacks per turn you get, because they depend entirely on the die roll, not the final attack total* -- if I get three attacks instead of two, I have a much better chance of getting at least one critical on my turn. Coincidentally, Speed is identical to haste -- you get a single extra attack with that weapon, and haste-like effects don't stack, so having two weaons of speed doesn't help -- but again, it's a way to increase the number of attacks per turn you get, which plays into the critical rate and multiplying straight additive bonuses. Combine with TWF, and you're getting more attacks than a one-weapon fighter of your level could hope for. *Assuming the critical is also a hit!
Nom 06-26-05, 08:06 PM	Not following you here. In particular, if you're using two of the same weapon, then IC applies to both. Critical rates are valuable in proportion with the number of attacks per turn you get, because they depend entirely on the die roll, not the final attack total* -- if I get three attacks instead of two, I have a much better chance of getting at least one critical on my turn. Coincidentally, Speed is identical to haste -- you get a single extra attack with that weapon, and haste-like effects don't stack, so having two weaons of speed doesn't help -- but again, it's a way to increase the number of attacks per turn you get, which plays into the critical rate and multiplying straight additive bonuses. Combine with TWF, and you're getting more attacks than a one-weapon fighter of your level could hope for. *Assuming the critical is also a hit!We're a little way off the original topic, but let's discuss this anyway. :) Scores: Str 18, Dex 20. Assumption: not using Weapon Finesse. I think you should be, but if we include WF then we aren't comparing like with like, since your character then has an unrelated +1 bonus with the kukri over the (say) falchion. I'll ignore crits for now, since it can be mathematically shown that an 18-20/x2 crit range simply increases expected damage by 1.15, assuming to-hit value is 18 or less. At 1st level (BAB +1) we have: falchion: single attack +5, dmg 2d4+4 (9) kukri: single attack +5, dmg 1d4+4 (6.5) kukri: full attack +3, dmg 1d4+4 (6.5) / 1d4+2 (4.5) If our target has AC 16, our expected damage is: falchion: 50% * 9 = 4.5 kukri: 50% * 6.5 = 3.25 kukri *2: 40% * 6.5 + 40% * 4.5 = 4.4 As AC goes up, the falchion is better. As AC goes down, the kukri is better. Of course, as AC goes down, the falchion wielder might decide to put 2 points (ignoring limit for now) into Power Attack, which is +4 damage. Thus: falchion (PA-2): single attack +3, dmg 2d4+4+4 (13) falchion: 40% * 13 = 5.2 In fact, the classic way to compare TWF to 2HF is to assume a +2 PA, which means that both TWF and 2HF have the same attack roll. From this, we can see why modifiers to attack rolls don't make a difference. Since the attack rolls are the same, a +2 simply increases the chance of hitting from all weapons by the same percentage and thus multiplies expected damage by the same percentage. Likewise, Improved Critical increases expect damage on either a falchion or a kukri from x1.15 to x1.3, so the expected damage yield remains the same. But what about Weapon Specialisation? falchion (PA-2): single attack +3, dmg 2d4+4+4+2 (15) kukri: full attack +3, dmg 1d4+4+2 (8.5) / 1d4+2+2 (6.5) At this point, the attack methods are comparable: both have a potential damage output of 15 points at the same attack bonus. As the damage bonuses increase, TWF will pull ahead. That said, there are additional drawbacks to TWF. You need extra feats (several). You need a full attack to get the extra attack. You don't get full-power AoOs. You have less flexibility to "dial your damage" (vs PA).
FreeTheSlaves 06-27-05, 03:03 AM	They can only be too high if they cause friction, but then again I bet everyone sat round and discussed the generation method to be used & the pros/cons. If they cause friction or obvious imbalance you may need to revisit those earlier assumptions that everyone made, or not. Imc I'm running, everyone got to roll 4d6dl & no rerolled hps or 25pt buy with average hps, everyone opted to roll. One person gets: 16, 14, 11, 9, 9, 7 Another: 17, 16, 16, 15, 13, 12 Is there a problem? Yes, one character is the gimp; but as the dm I ensure balance by other ways because without balance the party structure turns to custard. We all realized the above was likely to happen when 4 characters are generated with such a varying method but I was prepared to take on the extra workload to ensure balance & so we went ahead anyway. Otoh as a player I can't stand the above imbalance & that is why I pressed the dm & my friends for point buy, 25 being my favourite.
FreeTheSlaves 06-27-05, 03:09 AM	Here is some help if you really want to get gritty with the maths :) (Courtesy of 'Nail') Layout is the following: A = P{D[1+Pc(Mc-1)] + Db} For bonus critical dice I insert: +Bd[Pc(Mc-1)] after the Db & before the closing } If the chance to hit is different to the chance to confirm the critical use: A = P{D[1+(Pt/P)Pc(M-1)]+Db} where A = average damage per attack P = Probability to hit, as a fraction D = average weapon damage plus Str, Magic, etc Pc = Probability to Threaten, as a fraction Mc= Critical Multiplier Db = Bonus Damage dice that are not multiplied by a confirmed critical Bd = Bonus die average damage that only occurs on confirmed criticals
Keenath 06-27-05, 08:44 AM	We're a little way off the original topic, but let's discuss this anyway. :) Scores: Str 18, Dex 20. Assumption: not using Weapon Finesse. I think you should be, but if we include WF then we aren't comparing like with like, since your character then has an unrelated +1 bonus with the kukri over the (say) falchion.Not that it makes any difference, but in my particular case, Finesse is a lousy idea because I'm a barbarian -- rage pulls that STR up to 22. Typically, you should only go for finesse if your DEX is at least four points higher than your STR (that is, +2 better), because otherwise there are better ways to get a +1 on attacks. Barbarians should almost never take the feat, unless they have the most unbelievable build.