Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thefifth 11-08-04, 11:08 AM	Why dosen't my mum liek D&D??? She said something about not being able to play because of witches or something, and said some cases where people killed themselves and some other poeple, whats up with that??????
DrMorganes 11-08-04, 11:24 AM	Fifth, Check out this discussion (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=328498) in the What's a DM to Do? forum. Loads of info on the continuing mis-information surrounding this wonderful hobby.
Son of Khoron 11-08-04, 02:32 PM	Why dosen't my mum liek D&D??? She said something about not being able to play because of witches or something, and said some cases where people killed themselves and some other poeple, whats up with that?????? It is too bad that your mother is seeing D&D in that fashion. I have heard of bad stories surrounding the game in which players used it as a means to get into their situations. Bad players, not bad game. Explain carefully to your mother that it is a game that attracts good and bad players. Bad players give the game a bad rep. The game doesnt make players go bad. I have played and DM for over 20 years and I dont seek out skulls and spellbooks between my work and D&D sessions. If your mother is willing, have her sit in or actually roll a character up to play for a session. She may learn to understand it better and perhaps like playing it.
Sir Knight 11-08-04, 02:40 PM	What is with all of these posts recently? I've been gaming for 16 years and I'm not evil. Many would say I'm the most moral person they know (and I'm Athiest at that!). Where did all of these people spouting D&D is the Devil come from?! I mean they can't be much older than me since their kids are posting here... I figured it would go away with age. Scary man, scary!
Thorak 11-08-04, 03:14 PM	Claiming that D&D is satanic and evil makes as much sense as claiming that Monopoly is converting children into evil capitalists who care only about money. Not to mention, if they actually think about it and still believe it, it shows that the individual in question can't separate "fact" from "fiction". Because that's what D&D is. Social, interactive fiction.
Phrennzy 11-08-04, 07:07 PM	Print out some of these replies and show them to your mom.
Board_Rider 11-08-04, 07:17 PM	Mom: Where are you going? You: Well, seeing as how I can't stay inside and play D&D with my friends, I am going to go sell some crack. Mom: :eek: ummmmmmm..... You: Thanks mom, you know, what was I thinking? Here I was thinking of staying inside with friends when there is a buttload of money out there to be made!!! See ya!!! Mom: Well, uhh, why don't we...ahhhhh...talk about this? You: Okay.
Dark1ord 11-08-04, 08:28 PM	Many would say I'm the most moral person they know (and I'm Athiest at that!)luckily, morality does not presuppose religion. ;) oh, yeah... always sad to see prejudice show its ugly head. especially when it should have been eradicated due to its out-dated nature like here... enlightenment seems hard to bring about, these days...
ganda1f 11-08-04, 08:54 PM	Man, here I was thinking that this 'D&D is the devil' craze burned out fifteen odd years ago. I guess some myths stick.
primemover003 11-08-04, 09:36 PM	I blame it on W... [dons ring of greater flame resistance]
Board_Rider 11-08-04, 10:56 PM	I blame it on W... [dons ring of greater flame resistance] Wilson?.....He is (or was) just a poor volleyball!! Just kidding...you meant Waffles. I agree. While they are a delectible cornerstone in a breakfast of champions they do make you do loopy things. (I think it's the sugar!!!) ;) Seriously fifth, if you haven't looked at the linked forum above here are a few easy things. 1. Have your mom read/look at the books. 2. Look at a recent article featured in USA Today (search for it). 3. Game at your pad, or your flat (right), with "mum" looking over ya.
Thorak 11-09-04, 09:14 AM	And stress that D&D is just adult "pretend", with more rules because adults are wilier about cheating, and it's no fun devolving into "did not!" "did too!" every five minutes. I mean, did your mom freak out if you pretended to be Merlin, or the Genie from Aladdin when you were 4, or something? There's really no difference between the two.
Palin the Wizard 11-09-04, 09:34 AM	Excepting, of course, that we're using rules to do it.
Martimus 11-10-04, 08:45 AM	We'll I guess I went wrong somewhere! :P Coz not only being an big DnD player I'm also a witch (long story :D ) but trust me it wasn't Dungeons and dragons that turned me! Actually it was a friend that turned me in a maner of speaking. But thefifth to be honest there is nothing evil about the game! the bad rep just comes from over reactions of rumours from the past. My dad had the same trail of thought that your mum had so I just sat down with him one night with the core books and took him through the jist of the game and then answered any questions he would ask, after which he relised that it was just a game and it would prove no harm whats so ever. If anything it helps develop social skills especially if you join an Roleplaying group. Martiums
thefifth 11-10-04, 09:09 AM	Well, al this information has changed my mums reply from flat no to mabe, oh and martimus, I know a couple witches, ones a guy and ones a girl, the guys f**cked up, calls himself 'jesus'. About the game, I head that some phsyco DM made the players kill people for XP, and I think there was something about them doing drugs while playing dnd and monsters chanrged into the room, and in real life, their parents came into the room and then they killed them. And I know it's a load of crap, all these stories, it's my mum that thinks it's bad, thanx from the info, I'll try to convince her further.
twoDtwenty 11-10-04, 09:16 AM	Ah, one point at a time. Why dosen't my mum liek D&D??? She said something about not being able to play because of witches or something, and said some cases where people killed themselves and some other poeple, whats up with that??????Your mother is a lunatic and unfortunately undereducated on both the occult, and the specific situation from the 80s. Claiming that D&D is satanic and evil makes as much sense as claiming that Monopoly is converting children into evil capitalists who care only about money.There is nothing evil about capitalism. Socialism, however parallels communism on many levels and is an economic policy that actively reduces an individual's control over their own financial situation, penalizing those who work hard to reward those who choose not to work. An education in economics might benefit you.[/QUOTE] I blame it on W... [dons ring of greater flame resistance]Look, I found someone with an even less intelligent opinion than thefifth's mother. Who told you what you think, was it Dan Rather or Micheal Moore... one of the other antipatriots perhaps? We'll I guess I went wrong somewhere! Coz not only being an big DnD player I'm also a witch (long story )Seriously doubtful. Virtually every individual I have met to make this claim is groosly miseducated on the difference between modern popular religeon and witchcraft. Unless you have made a pact with satan you're disusing an excellent vocabulary word. Check OED if you choose to disbelieve. Fifth, here's my suugestion to your dilemma. Take your books to a friend that also plays house and leave them there. Dishonesty may be your best ally when dealing with ignorant religeous zealots.
Thorak 11-10-04, 09:51 AM	There is nothing evil about capitalism. Socialism, however parallels communism on many levels and is an economic policy that actively reduces an individual's control over their own financial situation, penalizing those who work hard to reward those who choose not to work. An education in economics might benefit you. I never claimed it was. Though your opinion on socialism is just as coloured as you claim my flippant comment was, and you apparently mean it. Socialism requires that the productive give up a greater portion to support the less productive, but with the intent that everyone is performing to the best of their ability and that the reasons one might not be able to work are no reason they should not be able to live comfortably. Let's look at Canada, my homeland, a socialist democracy. We don't have less control over our financial situation, we just pay higher taxes; same degree of control, just a higher proportion taken. But we get more for out tax money, too, like free medical care. This may not matter much to the doctors and lawyers who could easily afford health insurance, but it means the world of difference to the farmers and other low-paid, no-benefits type jobs that are absolutely necessary to the nation's survival. It's just as ridiculous to claim that socialism "penalizes those who work hard to reward those who choose not to work" as it is to claim that capitalism is evil. And I at least meant my comment as a joke, as an example of something as ridiculous as "D&D is satanic". Look, I found someone with an even less intelligent opinion than thefifth's mother. Who told you what you think, was it Dan Rather or Micheal Moore... one of the other antipatriots perhaps? Being critical of your nation's leader and/or government isn't antipatriotic; on the contrary, it's very patriotic. It shows you care enough about your country to want to change the things you feel are hurting it. Heck, in Canada we have a long-standing tradition of criticizing our leaders and government. Does it mean we're not patriotic? Far from it. It means we're not blinded to our nation's flaws just because we like it. And just for the sake of completeness; the kind of rabid opinion you show with terms like "antipatriot" most likely means you're a jingoist. If we want to start throwing terms around. Seriously doubtful. Virtually every individual I have met to make this claim is groosly miseducated on the difference between modern popular religeon and witchcraft. Unless you have made a pact with satan you're disusing an excellent vocabulary word. Check OED if you choose to disbelieve. What, the Oxford English Dictionary? I assume you're talking about his use of "witch." While I don't have a copy of the full OED (because no one but libraries typically do) the online Compact version gives this definition; witch • noun 1 a woman thought to have evil magic powers. 2 a follower or practitioner of modern witchcraft. 3 informal an ugly or unpleasant old woman. Nothing about Satan whatsoever. And the 2nd accepted definition is exactly what Martimus was claiming. Modern Wicca, and the witches which practice it, have as much to do with Satan worship as butter has to do with solar flares. In other words; nothing at all. Your comment is entirely founded on a Christian misconception based on medieval zealotry against the practitioners of Wicca at that time. It has as much relevance as Christian claims, during the Crusades, that Muslims were eating Christian babies. Just because people were saying it doesn't mean it was true; they were saying it to feel better about killing them. I find it infinitely amusing that in your next breath you condemn ignorant religious zealotry, when your claim here is based on it.
The_Cheat137 11-10-04, 02:31 PM	Well first i don't think i can give you any better advice than this: Completely ignore all of twoDtwenty's advice ;) Everyone else on here has been very helpful, i suggest you listen to their advice. I really don't think your mother is a lunatic, or some kind of religious zealot^^ She just doesnt know what's really going on, so listen to everyone here (besides twoDtwenty) and explain it to her; playing behind her back has a couple problems, for one it won't let you have playing time when and where you want it, and it keeps your mother in the dark. I'd also like to thank twoDtwenty for completely missing Thorak's point, and taking two words from it completely out of context just so he can show off his incredible wealth of knowledge in economics. twoDtwenty, instead of coming onto these message boards, taking people's posts and interpreting them in a way that only you seem to understand, and flaming them for their ignorance (which you just made up on the spot anyway), you could attempt to post something that is either 1: relevant to the topic of the thread. or 2: doesnt blast someone for something they didn't even say.
twoDtwenty 11-10-04, 03:21 PM	A thousand pardons, I'vebeen awake far too long. My expertise is from behind the DM screen, not in aiding juveniles in overcoming famillial discord surrounding my preferred hobbies.
rwk87 11-10-04, 03:44 PM	Well, I understand where you're coming from. I'm 17, and will be 18 within a couple of months. I'm going to start playing D&D for the first time this Saturday, but my Mom's just as stubborn as yours sounds like. Fortunately, I have a way with words when it comes to our arguments. :D (Ironically, it's my mother who always tells me I should be a lawyer or something when I grow up.) I find that, with my mother, the best thing you can do is go online and search for a bunch of sites with other peoples' opinions regarding the subject. For some reason or other, apparently she seems to value the words of esteemed strangers over mine. But, whatever. ;) If you go to http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/dnd.htm , you should be able to find a bunch of links for peoples' opinions about D&D--good AND bad. As I am a Christian, and have had to convince my mother why D&D is NOT Satanic or inherently 'evil', I like this link from that page the most: http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html . Tell your mom that she simply -has- to sit down and read some of those articles. If you're lucky, she'll change her opinion--or, like in my mother's case, 'allow me to play but without her blessing'. :rolleyes: (And if you're interested in a good laugh, go to http://logosresourcepages.org/dnd-game.html . Apparently, that site thinks that not only D&D, but also--get this--Pokemon, Pocahontas, and more are all evil. :confused: So...yeah...)
Dungeon Master 11-10-04, 04:22 PM	TwoDTwenty, stop trying to prove to us how smart you are. "Not aiding juveniles in overcoming familial discord surrounding my preferred hobbies"? C'mon man, this is a D&D message board not an academic journal. And no, this has nothing to do with anyone being too uneducated to understand you. Just in case you were wondering :rolleyes: Anyways, he said "evil capitalists", which means that he might like capitalists, just not evil ones (who only care about money) :)
Loophole Hider 11-10-04, 05:16 PM	Print this out and give to her... http://www.cale.com/paper.htm
twoDtwenty 11-11-04, 08:56 AM	I didn't open the can of worms, I just play with the slimy little buggers once they're out. To The Dungeon Master, I wouldn't dare post something I thought couldn't be understood. Language is a tool for communication, and DnD tends to draw a group with a somewhat more extensive vocabulary than certain other hobbies. Do let me know if you think I should simplify my vocabulary from this post as well. To Thorak, your original statement directly equated evil with capitalism, mine equated socialism with communism. Yours compared ethics to economics, mine economics to economics. The discourse may have well been "Apples are evil vs. Oranges are similar to Grapefruit." Very dissimilar statements. What you may consider flippant I definitely consider insulting. Any association with ethicality of my comparison of socialism to communism would be through your personal views. While I dislike both of the more repressive economic policies, I can see certatin benefits to a limited application of either of them. Socialism benefits the infirm and incapable as much as it benefits the unwilling. On the OED, I don't have access to a full version either, a neighbor of mine from when I lived just off campus in Madison however does, albeit an older one. She purchased it from her HS library over an alumni visit to try to motivate HS students to go to college and thought she would get excellent use out of it in her doctoral studies in english, she also is a self proclaimed expert on the occult, and I often defer to her when developing flavor text and backgrounds for villianous NPCs. The addition of practitioners of Wicca must be a relatively recent addition. I do not know what edition she has, she has not been online this morning. When she does get online I will be certain to ask. While to question your governemnt leaders is not unpatriotic, the misinformation distributed by our most popular propagandist and several other leftists upset about Gore's inability to sue his way into the oval office is antipatriotic. Despite their excellent educations, few of them show the signs of intelligence that are supposed to accompany their degrees and the ones who do use it to spread vitriolic half truths... such as (D)Charles Rangles attempt to reinstate the draft, and other popular misconceptions. I can only be pleased that the majority of eligible voters too apathetic to cast their ballots are the same ones gullible enough to listen to these men, these antipatriots. To Primemover, I stand by my assertion that your statement is both in poor taste, and a result of gross miseducation from popular propagandists. In a time of significant devisiveness you shoukd have known, and apparently did, that your comment would attract emotional, dissenting opinions. Hope I've addressed everyone I potentially insulted directly.
Arquinsiel 11-11-04, 09:23 AM	Excepting, of course, that we're using rules to do it. TO quote friends: But rules control the fun. What, the Oxford English Dictionary? I assume you're talking about his use of "witch." While I don't have a copy of the full OED (because no one but libraries typically do) the online Compact version gives this definition;I have several. I have for years. It just seemed usefull to have an up to date and accurate dictionary for the occasional time I found a word I just plain didn't know. Last I checked wicca was listed under witch but as a cross-reference. It was vaguely derisory when I went there. I was amused.
DrMorganes 11-11-04, 10:12 AM	Dishonesty may be your best ally when dealing with ignorant religeous zealots.Actually, this is perhaps the single worst thing you can do when dealing with people of strong faith. Many strongly religious people (particularly Christians of various demonimations, though they by no means have a lock on this) view the use of subterfuge as proof of their viewpoint. Their logic goes along the lines of "if what you're doing is not wrong, why are you sneaking around and hiding?" Additionally, when the "religeous (sic) zealot" in question is your mother, father, or other family member, resorting to dishonesty brings to mind an entire slew of issues totally unrelated to D&D and gaming in general. In this instance - and whenever confronted with misinformation of any stripe - your best option is to respond calmly, rationally, and with facts. MJ Young's essay is a good place to start, but you'll need other resources to educate your mother. The Escapist (http://www.theescapist.com) is a good place to start. Be sure to parse the post I linked to above for additional resources. I would recommend you ask your mother what, specifically, she finds objectionable about the game. Be respectful (she's your mother!), be genuinely interested in her opinion in this matter (she's your mother). Believe it or not, she DOES have your best interests at heart. (I'm speaking as a parent myself here.) As has been pointed out in other discussions, some parents' core objection is not to the game itself but to the people with whom you game. In any event, once you understand exactly what your mother doesn't like, you can gather evidence proving the contrary. Keep in mind that many of the "resources" against D&D on the web are using old information (that is, from AD&D 1st Edition) taken totally out of context. The third link provided by rwk87 is a perfect example of this. Show your mother the facts about James Dallas Egbert and Irving "Bink" Pulling. Explain to her that nearly all GMs (use Game Master rather than Dungeon Master, it's a friendlier term) actively DISALLOW evil characters in their games. Show her the information you can glean from this and other posts. Most of all, however, ask her to actually READ your copy of the Player's Handbook and use Post-It notes to mark the bits she feels directly contradict the tenets of Christianity. Address these directly. Invite her to sit in on your games - or failing that, suggest that your group would be happy to play at your house within full view. You have, after all, nothing to hide. My expertise is from behind the DM screen, not in aiding juveniles in overcoming famillial discord surrounding my preferred hobbies.Unfortunately, this attitude is all too common in this hobby. The issue at the heart of the original post is not overcoming famillial discord - it's the misinformation surrounding RPGs in general and D&D specifically. Given the current and persistent state of general opinion, I believe that EVERY gamer needs to be able to put forth a competent and coherant rebuttal when faced with misinformation.
Edymnion 11-11-04, 10:32 AM	About the game, I head that some phsyco DM made the players kill people for XP, and I think there was something about them doing drugs while playing dnd and monsters chanrged into the room, and in real life, their parents came into the room and then they killed them. And I know it's a load of crap, all these stories, it's my mum that thinks it's bad, thanx from the info, I'll try to convince her further.Yeah, tell your Mom to do her homework. Tell her to go look up EVERY case of D&D related murder and/or suicide she can possibly find. Then divide that by the number of people in the world that play D&D. You'll actually find that D&D players have a LOWER suicide/murder rate than the general population! Playing D&D should be required for healthy development! :P
Thorak 11-11-04, 03:40 PM	To Thorak, your original statement directly equated evil with capitalism, mine equated socialism with communism. Yours compared ethics to economics, mine economics to economics. The discourse may have well been "Apples are evil vs. Oranges are similar to Grapefruit." Very dissimilar statements. What you may consider flippant I definitely consider insulting. Well, except that I didn't equate capitalism with evil. I referred to evil capitalists, which as Dungeon Master says could just as much mean the subset of capitalists that are evil, as that capitalists are evil. And it was 'flippant' in that it was intended to be ridiculous and clearly not something I agreed with. Any association with ethicality of my comparison of socialism to communism would be through your personal views. While I dislike both of the more repressive economic policies, I can see certatin benefits to a limited application of either of them. It's not through my personal views. It through your use of terms like 'repressive'. I could say, just as easily, that capitalism is a cruel and inhumane system, in that it chooses to let the unproductive starve to death so that the rich can benefit from them. Which a pure form would. Socialism and communism are, neither one, repressive by nature. Only in a pure and complete enforcement of either, as capitalism would be cruel and inhumane in a similar application. Socialism benefits the infirm and incapable as much as it benefits the unwilling. On the OED, I don't have access to a full version either, a neighbor of mine from when I lived just off campus in Madison however does, albeit an older one. She purchased it from her HS library over an alumni visit to try to motivate HS students to go to college and thought she would get excellent use out of it in her doctoral studies in english, she also is a self proclaimed expert on the occult, and I often defer to her when developing flavor text and backgrounds for villianous NPCs. The addition of practitioners of Wicca must be a relatively recent addition. I do not know what edition she has, she has not been online this morning. When she does get online I will be certain to ask. While to question your governemnt leaders is not unpatriotic, the misinformation distributed by our most popular propagandist and several other leftists upset about Gore's inability to sue his way into the oval office is antipatriotic. Despite their excellent educations, few of them show the signs of intelligence that are supposed to accompany their degrees and the ones who do use it to spread vitriolic half truths... such as (D)Charles Rangles attempt to reinstate the draft, and other popular misconceptions. I can only be pleased that the majority of eligible voters too apathetic to cast their ballots are the same ones gullible enough to listen to these men, these antipatriots. They're not "antipatriots". I'm firmly convinced that Moore, at least, is so patriotic he's willing to lie and twist the truth to try and better his country. Gore, quite rightly, wanted recounts done in a closely contested state that had big issues with the methods of voting. Hardly antipatriotic. Though I won't get into political specifics, because this isn't the place. Lying is bad. Lying to try and make your country better, however, isn't "antipatriotic". It's very patriotic. Patriotic enough to lie to achieve your goals.
TheMightyMcClaw 11-11-04, 08:25 PM	This is a common set of rediculous accusations generally propogated by the Christian Right. They're the same people responsible for ruining the Republican party and the nineteen-eighties.
LukiLoki 11-11-04, 08:36 PM	Disclaimer: previously posted on another thread called "Defend D&D" on the General board, just as that thread descended into oblivion. (You may say I should have learned my lesson. :) ) So this sums up my take on these kinds of condemnations of our beloved hobby. I've been surprised at the prevalence of threads on this subject generally and their popularity (witness the 5+ page "My Mom walked in on me..." thread and several other recent true stories of religious oppression). I am old enough to remember the outcry of the eighties, the movie with T.Hanks (but no thanks), the "Against D&D" "...ADD" Acronym group, what was it?, and all that madness. It was serious stuff, almost put TSR out of business, and caused the designers of 2ed AD&D to eschew all reference to "Demons" and "Devils" by name. Surprised, because I had thought it had long ago blown over and the wing-nuts of the religious wrong had found spookier phantoms under their beds to mouth off about, but, based on the experience of posters here, and the interest the subject generates, 'tis not so, alas. So I got to thinking about it last night and I think I have an angle on it that I haven't seen anybody bring up. What this has become, people, is folklore. The patently false suicide stories, persistent long after the hysteria and negative media attention have died down, are nothing more than urban legends. And that got me thinking about folklore in general, and why its stories attach themselves to particular people or activities, and this is what I think it is: Basically, when small groups of people, perceived to be of higher than average intelligence, get together and engage in "anti-social" activities (compared, say, to going to the football game on Friday night), the masses get nervous. "What are they doing in there?" "Fairies and Elves? That's weird!" etc. etc. Stories crop up, witch-hunts are organized. It's really about social control and the "average person's" anxieties about those who seem to be able to thrive without the constant reassurance of the herd. In this analysis, it actually has very little to do with the content of the game or anybody's religious beliefs being threatened. I guess this could be dismissed as self-serving, since I am claiming in essence, "you just hate us because we're smarter than you", but... Sorry, a lot of us ARE smarter than you. And pretty much all of us really don't care what "society" thinks about what we do with our imaginations behind closed doors. And so I'm claiming for us a kinship with other oppressed groups of the past and present, branded as "deviant" by a society that is actively against independent thought and excercise of the imagination. In fact, to really throw a stick in the craw of the fundamentalists out there, I'll go ahead and include the early Christians in our extended family of oppressed free-thinkers. The defense rests.
Lincoln Hills 11-12-04, 05:37 PM	Old Arabian saying - I THINK it was Arabian... Shout the truth in the marketplace and all men are deaf. Whisper a lie into the desert wind and it will live on forever.
ORC_Tuhteth 11-13-04, 12:29 AM	Okay, let me break out my wand of thread closing ... *DING*