Can Undead become Elemental? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Undead become Elemental? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Revil
10-10-06, 11:59 PM Here's the situation:

The character I will be playing in a game shortly has the long term goal to become a lich...and I want him to take levels in the Elemental Savant class from CA.

My question is. If he reaches max levels in Elemental Savant, becoming Elemental, does he then lose the Undead type of being a lich (assuming he is a lich by this time)?

Would he be an Elemental Undead? Or Undead Elemental? Would he still be able to be turned?

What other complications can you guys (and gals) see in this uncommon combination?

I appreciate any answers you can give me.

Revil
runestar
10-11-06, 12:06 AM There's some sort of pyramid in Savage Species which shows what types take priority over which.

I think undead supercedes elemental..?:confused:
Toloran
10-11-06, 01:17 AM When you become an elemental from elemental savant, you cease being a humanoid (I think). As such, you fail to meet one of the only requirements of becoming a lich (the other being able to make your phylactory).
X-Codes
10-11-06, 04:25 AM You can no longer be flanked. You gain the movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) based on your chosen element (Earth for Acid, Air for Electricity, Fire for Fire, and Water for Cold). The save DC against your Whirlwind, Vortex, or Burn abilities changes to 20 (since you have no Con modifier).

I'm pretty certain you already have the rest for being a lich.

Note that this is really up to your DM. If your DM doesn't want to arbitrarily rule something, then you should use this. It's honestly a class feature, not really a true transformation.

When you become an elemental from elemental savant, you cease being a humanoid (I think). As such, you fail to meet one of the only requirements of becoming a lich (the other being able to make your phylactory).
Except he isn't a humanoid, he's an undead already.
FRRC
10-11-06, 08:06 AM Ask your DM if he can alter the Elemental Savant to choose a Negative energy type. Like a Negative energy elemental. I think that would help your cause in staying a Lich.
kinjojones
10-11-06, 11:37 AM Libris Mortis has examples of undead who according to their flavour text at least were once elementals. So it probaly isn't unreasonable to assume the reverse could be done. How to do it mechanically though I couldn't say.
parad0cz
10-11-06, 03:16 PM ooo Negitive Energy Savant...

Thats a great idea!

Now, since neg energy is much different than the other types... how owuld you go about that? Maybe just do Cold Savant with Lord of Uttercold? Then just flavor? or would you do a mechanic overhaul?

Thing is, why be a lich anyway? Arent you effectivly immortal after the transformation?

I mean, making him take levels in a class is weird, but if he goes for it cool... You might just want to fudge the rules for him if you are making him take a class.

Depending how much he wants to be a lich proper, you could make some sort of Elemental themed right that mirrors the lich effects.
FRRC
10-11-06, 04:16 PM It actually says, in the adaption section under the Savant's Description, that other elemental types are perfectly feasible with DM discretion.

It would just be like a regular savant but with Negative Energy.
Toloran
10-11-06, 04:45 PM Except he isn't a humanoid, he's an undead already.

Oops, nvm then. I misread it and thought he was going to become elemental first and then the lich.
Cifer
10-11-06, 06:11 PM By RAW, you lose the undead type (can't have two types) and gain the elemental one. What exactly this means is unclear.
Revil
10-11-06, 06:37 PM Ok, so if I lose the Undead type, do I lose all the other little benefits of being a lich. It doesn't state you lose anything upon reaching 10th level in the Elemental Savant features, as you aren't gaining a template, merely gaining another, albeit powerful, class feature.

Also, if my wizzie is no longer undead, can he still be turned?

I have another question relating. When it comes to creating magic items, and you have a minimum caster level (such as 11 with the phylactery) What all would count towards that caster level if I multiclassed into the Elemental Savant? Would it be all of my wizard levels plus all of my ES levels? Or would it be only my wizard levels? Or perhaps Wizard levels plus all levels of ES where I gain more spells per day (which would be every level of ES except 5th and 10th)?
X-Codes
10-11-06, 06:52 PM Ok, so if I lose the Undead type, do I lose all the other little benefits of being a lich. It doesn't state you lose anything upon reaching 10th level in the Elemental Savant features, as you aren't gaining a template, merely gaining another, albeit powerful, class feature.

Also, if my wizzie is no longer undead, can he still be turned?
Ask. Your. DM. There are no real rules for this, regardless from what anyone else thinks, so your DM has to come up with some.

I have another question relating. When it comes to creating magic items, and you have a minimum caster level (such as 11 with the phylactery) What all would count towards that caster level if I multiclassed into the Elemental Savant? Would it be all of my wizard levels plus all of my ES levels? Or would it be only my wizard levels? Or perhaps Wizard levels plus all levels of ES where I gain more spells per day (which would be every level of ES except 5th and 10th)?
It works off your caster level, which does not increase at level 5 and 10 of ES.
DarknessEternal
10-12-06, 01:58 AM There are undead elementals. They're called necromentals and in Libris Mortis.
FRRC
10-12-06, 05:29 AM There are undead elementals. They're called necromentals and in Libris Mortis.

This is true, I forgot about those.
DarkWarriorKarg
10-12-06, 09:38 AM Undead (Augmented Elemental, [Element]) is, I believe, the necromental result.
Cifer
10-13-06, 10:40 PM @DarkwarriorKarg
AFAIK, elemental savants don't get an elemental subtype, merely the immunity to their element, (meaning no vulnerability to the counter one) so the new type wouldn't have it either.
Darth Sephiroth
10-13-06, 10:49 PM Necromental
Tarvok
10-13-06, 10:52 PM Oooh, I just got an image of a Lich surrounded by a flaming aura.
FRRC
10-14-06, 05:37 AM @DarkwarriorKarg
AFAIK, elemental savants don't get an elemental subtype, merely the immunity to their element, (meaning no vulnerability to the counter one) so the new type wouldn't have it either.

Complete Arcane, pg 34, 6th line down, 8 words across: "Her type changes to elemental."
Cifer
10-14-06, 03:31 PM @FRRC
Yup. "Elemental" type, but not a subtype specifying which element like most elemental creatures have. They just get the elemental type and the immunity.
Worguron
10-14-06, 03:43 PM According to the pyramid laid out in Savage Species, Undead, Outsider and Construct are at the top of the pyramid. Therefore, you would remain an undead with the Augmented Elemental subtype.
Need_A_Life
10-15-06, 09:43 AM I'd say Elemental (Augmented Undead, Augmented Humanoid)

Cannot be turned, keeps undead goodies etc.

Why?

Because he became a lich THEN an elemental, not the other way around.

...and I know Savage Species is against me, but from the book there are examples of them breaking their guidelines, the most notable one is the Feral template (which, according to their guidelines, should be LA +4/+5 IIRC), the Incarnate Construct (which changes a construct to humanoid, rendering their system moot) and the awakened flesh golem (which cannot exist, due to spell immunity).
tharivol266
10-15-06, 06:44 PM personally speaking as a dm there are three diff classes of types

inheritied: born with them you have to worry about the pyramid alot to make sure you are within the rules

acquired: to me this is things that are acquired through direct pc activity but not by virtue of class they can be colintary or invoulintary (lich and necropolitan and lycanthropy etc)

class based: this is the supreme of the types. the type you acquire through this amount of commitment overrides all other types.

in my games there would be no conflict either way because elementals are taken over by undead and the undead type would be over rulled by the class

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Revil 10-10-06, 11:59 PM	Here's the situation: The character I will be playing in a game shortly has the long term goal to become a lich...and I want him to take levels in the Elemental Savant class from CA. My question is. If he reaches max levels in Elemental Savant, becoming Elemental, does he then lose the Undead type of being a lich (assuming he is a lich by this time)? Would he be an Elemental Undead? Or Undead Elemental? Would he still be able to be turned? What other complications can you guys (and gals) see in this uncommon combination? I appreciate any answers you can give me. Revil
runestar 10-11-06, 12:06 AM	There's some sort of pyramid in Savage Species which shows what types take priority over which. I think undead supercedes elemental..?:confused:
Toloran 10-11-06, 01:17 AM	When you become an elemental from elemental savant, you cease being a humanoid (I think). As such, you fail to meet one of the only requirements of becoming a lich (the other being able to make your phylactory).
X-Codes 10-11-06, 04:25 AM	You can no longer be flanked. You gain the movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) based on your chosen element (Earth for Acid, Air for Electricity, Fire for Fire, and Water for Cold). The save DC against your Whirlwind, Vortex, or Burn abilities changes to 20 (since you have no Con modifier). I'm pretty certain you already have the rest for being a lich. Note that this is really up to your DM. If your DM doesn't want to arbitrarily rule something, then you should use this. It's honestly a class feature, not really a true transformation. When you become an elemental from elemental savant, you cease being a humanoid (I think). As such, you fail to meet one of the only requirements of becoming a lich (the other being able to make your phylactory). Except he isn't a humanoid, he's an undead already.
FRRC 10-11-06, 08:06 AM	Ask your DM if he can alter the Elemental Savant to choose a Negative energy type. Like a Negative energy elemental. I think that would help your cause in staying a Lich.
kinjojones 10-11-06, 11:37 AM	Libris Mortis has examples of undead who according to their flavour text at least were once elementals. So it probaly isn't unreasonable to assume the reverse could be done. How to do it mechanically though I couldn't say.
parad0cz 10-11-06, 03:16 PM	ooo Negitive Energy Savant... Thats a great idea! Now, since neg energy is much different than the other types... how owuld you go about that? Maybe just do Cold Savant with Lord of Uttercold? Then just flavor? or would you do a mechanic overhaul? Thing is, why be a lich anyway? Arent you effectivly immortal after the transformation? I mean, making him take levels in a class is weird, but if he goes for it cool... You might just want to fudge the rules for him if you are making him take a class. Depending how much he wants to be a lich proper, you could make some sort of Elemental themed right that mirrors the lich effects.
FRRC 10-11-06, 04:16 PM	It actually says, in the adaption section under the Savant's Description, that other elemental types are perfectly feasible with DM discretion. It would just be like a regular savant but with Negative Energy.
Toloran 10-11-06, 04:45 PM	Except he isn't a humanoid, he's an undead already. Oops, nvm then. I misread it and thought he was going to become elemental first and then the lich.
Cifer 10-11-06, 06:11 PM	By RAW, you lose the undead type (can't have two types) and gain the elemental one. What exactly this means is unclear.
Revil 10-11-06, 06:37 PM	Ok, so if I lose the Undead type, do I lose all the other little benefits of being a lich. It doesn't state you lose anything upon reaching 10th level in the Elemental Savant features, as you aren't gaining a template, merely gaining another, albeit powerful, class feature. Also, if my wizzie is no longer undead, can he still be turned? I have another question relating. When it comes to creating magic items, and you have a minimum caster level (such as 11 with the phylactery) What all would count towards that caster level if I multiclassed into the Elemental Savant? Would it be all of my wizard levels plus all of my ES levels? Or would it be only my wizard levels? Or perhaps Wizard levels plus all levels of ES where I gain more spells per day (which would be every level of ES except 5th and 10th)?
X-Codes 10-11-06, 06:52 PM	Ok, so if I lose the Undead type, do I lose all the other little benefits of being a lich. It doesn't state you lose anything upon reaching 10th level in the Elemental Savant features, as you aren't gaining a template, merely gaining another, albeit powerful, class feature. Also, if my wizzie is no longer undead, can he still be turned? Ask. Your. DM. There are no real rules for this, regardless from what anyone else thinks, so your DM has to come up with some. I have another question relating. When it comes to creating magic items, and you have a minimum caster level (such as 11 with the phylactery) What all would count towards that caster level if I multiclassed into the Elemental Savant? Would it be all of my wizard levels plus all of my ES levels? Or would it be only my wizard levels? Or perhaps Wizard levels plus all levels of ES where I gain more spells per day (which would be every level of ES except 5th and 10th)? It works off your caster level, which does not increase at level 5 and 10 of ES.
DarknessEternal 10-12-06, 01:58 AM	There are undead elementals. They're called necromentals and in Libris Mortis.
FRRC 10-12-06, 05:29 AM	There are undead elementals. They're called necromentals and in Libris Mortis. This is true, I forgot about those.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-12-06, 09:38 AM	Undead (Augmented Elemental, [Element]) is, I believe, the necromental result.
Cifer 10-13-06, 10:40 PM	@DarkwarriorKarg AFAIK, elemental savants don't get an elemental subtype, merely the immunity to their element, (meaning no vulnerability to the counter one) so the new type wouldn't have it either.
Darth Sephiroth 10-13-06, 10:49 PM	Necromental
Tarvok 10-13-06, 10:52 PM	Oooh, I just got an image of a Lich surrounded by a flaming aura.
FRRC 10-14-06, 05:37 AM	@DarkwarriorKarg AFAIK, elemental savants don't get an elemental subtype, merely the immunity to their element, (meaning no vulnerability to the counter one) so the new type wouldn't have it either. Complete Arcane, pg 34, 6th line down, 8 words across: "Her type changes to elemental."
Cifer 10-14-06, 03:31 PM	@FRRC Yup. "Elemental" type, but not a subtype specifying which element like most elemental creatures have. They just get the elemental type and the immunity.
Worguron 10-14-06, 03:43 PM	According to the pyramid laid out in Savage Species, Undead, Outsider and Construct are at the top of the pyramid. Therefore, you would remain an undead with the Augmented Elemental subtype.
Need_A_Life 10-15-06, 09:43 AM	I'd say Elemental (Augmented Undead, Augmented Humanoid) Cannot be turned, keeps undead goodies etc. Why? Because he became a lich THEN an elemental, not the other way around. ...and I know Savage Species is against me, but from the book there are examples of them breaking their guidelines, the most notable one is the Feral template (which, according to their guidelines, should be LA +4/+5 IIRC), the Incarnate Construct (which changes a construct to humanoid, rendering their system moot) and the awakened flesh golem (which cannot exist, due to spell immunity).
tharivol266 10-15-06, 06:44 PM	personally speaking as a dm there are three diff classes of types inheritied: born with them you have to worry about the pyramid alot to make sure you are within the rules acquired: to me this is things that are acquired through direct pc activity but not by virtue of class they can be colintary or invoulintary (lich and necropolitan and lycanthropy etc) class based: this is the supreme of the types. the type you acquire through this amount of commitment overrides all other types. in my games there would be no conflict either way because elementals are taken over by undead and the undead type would be over rulled by the class