Post/Author/DateTime	Post
High Octane 12-31-06, 09:59 PM	Do undead get any supernatural ability to see creatures and persons that are invisible?
Cifer 12-31-06, 10:02 PM	If their entry says so, they do. The undead type confers only 60' darkvision.
Artector 12-31-06, 10:17 PM	Not by default.
aotrscommander 01-01-07, 06:39 PM	Short answer: no. Longer answer: Undead, unless otherwise stated, don't have any exceptional senses, in that the rules don't treat their senses as any different to alive creatures, i.e. they work in exactly the same way. As far as vision and hearing go at least, they are assumed to have the same level and functionality of senses as a living creature. (This was pointed out somewhere in a thread or an article about whether Undead could see life energy (which they can't unless they have Lifesense feat), where it pointed out that as it doesn't specifically say they have different types of senses they therefore don't by RAW.) So Undead need the same sort of equipment/spell/powers etc to see invisible as living or, for that matter, nonliving creatures. Personally, as a Spirit-Bound Lich who does possess the ability to see living creatures through their aura of life, I can see living creatures using (typical) invisiblity. Though if I think there are likely to be steathed creatures in the area, I utilise my spell See Threats Really Clearly, a powerful spell with a simple verbal componet of "Initiate Bombardment" or alternatively "You May Fire When Ready Commander." This reveals after casting that there are, in fact, no threats in the area of effect.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-01-07, 06:47 PM	The article was probably this one: SKR's rant, "Undead don't have special eyesight." http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html
Zombayz1 01-01-07, 06:54 PM	Not unless they have lifesense(and the invis-ed creature is alive), it's mentioned in their description, or the ability granting invisibility is mind affecting. Aside from that, undead are treated as you would any other creature.
aotrscommander 01-01-07, 07:37 PM	The article was probably this one: SKR's rant, "Undead don't have special eyesight." http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html Could well be! Though I vaguely remember a thread on it as well, I think (somebody probably linked the article there, too!)
High Octane 01-02-07, 09:50 AM	I should say the situation came up in this situation: We were facing a bunch of zombies, skeletons, and some sort of spellcaster. Well the spellcaster was causing havoc, so my bard cast invisibility as a standard action and ran up to an adjacent square to the caster drawing his rapier, hoping to slip in and hit him while he was casting a spell. (Spells cause an AoO, and he would have to make a concentration check or lose the spell and hopefully he wouldnt know I was there) Well I showed my character running through the fray, and the DM started to roll attacks of oppurtunity from the skeletons and zombies. At that point I stopped him and asked him "WHAT THE HELL?" Well he explained that they could see me. I asked why and he said that mindless undead just sense life force, and we ended up in somewhat of an arguement over the idea. One point he mentioned was why would there be a "Hide from Undead" spell if there already was invisibility. I said because its a cleric spell and 1st level. He brought up lifesense in the Libris Mortis. Lifesense DOES seem to support his claim, but do mindless undead get it by default? And is that their only form of sight? If so, it only works for 20 ft. and that defeats the idea of the skeleton archer, a real D&D staple. Well the DM decided they could tell where I was but I still got the 50% miss chance. The Spellcaster took a 5 ft move and got out of my threat range. It sucked. It was a good plan.
Ryusage 01-02-07, 09:59 AM	You should have brought up the Scent ability. Creatures with scent know where u are (with your allotted 5x5 feet) but they don't get AoO because they dont know exactly where you are. Same would probably go for lifesense
Zherog 01-02-07, 10:42 AM	Or you could point out that because you have total concealment, they can't make Attacks of Opportunity: Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
High Octane 01-02-07, 10:55 AM	Actually I dont think he had the ZOMBIES take AoOs, but the skeletons did move towards me and attack me. He rules since the skeletons didnt have eyes they used lifesense, but the zombies had eyes so they used normal eyesight. Hopefully, he will read this and this wont be a problem in the future.
Falln 01-02-07, 12:14 PM	Since I play 2nd edition I can only answer your question by: there is a special invisibility to undead spells. We also have a houserule that undead can't be affected by illusion spells since those work on the mind. And the normal invisibility is an illusion spell.
High Octane 01-02-07, 01:13 PM	Since I play 2nd edition I can only answer your question by: there is a special invisibility to undead spells. We also have a houserule that undead can't be affected by illusion spells since those work on the mind. And the normal invisibility is an illusion spell. You should read that article. That makes your average skeleton as good as a true sight divination alarm spell that cant be dispelled.
Anaxander 01-02-07, 02:38 PM	Actually I dont think he had the ZOMBIES take AoOs, but the skeletons did move towards me and attack me. He rules since the skeletons didnt have eyes they used lifesense, but the zombies had eyes so they used normal eyesight. Hopefully, he will read this and this wont be a problem in the future. But do zombies have functional eyes? If you chop a zombies head off, does it still move around and attack you (yes because it has no critical parts) and if it does, is it blinded and deafened or not? I think these are rules open to interpretation from your DM.
Anaxander 01-02-07, 02:38 PM	Since I play 2nd edition I can only answer your question by: there is a special invisibility to undead spells. We also have a houserule that undead can't be affected by illusion spells since those work on the mind. And the normal invisibility is an illusion spell. Hide from Undead in 3.5 And not all illusion spells affect the mind.
High Octane 01-02-07, 02:52 PM	I think these are rules open to interpretation from your DM. Oh absolutely, but I just dont really find it fair that low CR creatures like these are immune to invisibility.
Thiez 01-02-07, 03:10 PM	Lifesense has a prerequisite of Cha 13. Skeletons and zombies have Cha 1. If skeletons need lifesense to 'see', they are (by your DM's logic) blind when not in the presence of the living. Libris Mortis was published AFTER the monster manual. That means the lifesense feat was published after the skeleton. Therefore, the skeleton can not make use of the lifesense feat. "I think these are rules open to interpretation from your DM." Yes, but the amount of interpretation this DM is using is called 'house-ruling', and should be declared as such.
Anaxander 01-02-07, 03:15 PM	"I think these are rules open to interpretation from your DM." Yes, but the amount of interpretation this DM is using is called 'house-ruling', and should be declared as such. Well, I didn't meant the clichéd 'your DM can houserule anything': Since skeletons have no visual capacity, they should be blind. Since skeletons have no auditive capacity, they should be deaf. Now this would imply heavy restrictions on their behaviour. However, since the MM is completely silent on this, interpretation of your DM is necessary, not a luxury houseruling. It would be completely logical to expect zombies not to have functional senses as well, so the problem of skeletons extends to that of zombies as well, and other animated undead. Of course, sight could be magically imbued by the animation process, which is perhaps the most simple solution.
Thiez 01-02-07, 04:07 PM	Yes. And this magic grants them? Darkvision 60 ft. And somehow functional hearing. Edit: Since your DM has access to Libris Mortis for the Lifesense feat, make him look at page 11. It says that undead get 60 ft. darkvision at their creation. They also retain sense of smell and hearing. But it also says 'if an undead physically loses a particular organ, it can no longer use that particular ability'. I think there is reason to believe this does not apply to skeletons, or they'd all be blind, deaf, unable to smell, and without sense of touch, and (according to the MM), somehow worthy of a CR. Then again, look at page 158 of Libris Mortis. It still lists skeletons as having darkvision 60 ft., and not lifesense. Your DM is wrong.
High Octane 01-02-07, 04:47 PM	Then again, look at page 158 of Libris Mortis. It still lists skeletons as having darkvision 60 ft., and not lifesense. Your DM is wrong. Unfortunately unless it says it specifically DOESNT have lifesense I dont think he'll rule that conclusive. But he is the DM (a good one) and a good friend so whatever he decides will be cool with me.
Always-Late 01-02-07, 06:11 PM	How to butcher undead: 1. Cast Greater Invisibility. 2. Start knocking off heads. Being mindless, they will assume that heads are falling off for no good reason.
FeceMan 01-03-07, 01:47 AM	Sounds like an EQ phenomenon.
PhaedrusXY 01-03-07, 02:30 AM	In earlier editions of the game, we played it that undead could see invisible creatures because they saw the "Lifeforce", alot like the Libris Mortis feat. However, in D&D 3.X, this was dropped, and the rules are alot more explicit than they were in earlier editions. Undead do not by default have any sensory powers above and beyond the norm, except Darkvision 60 ft. As far as the rules go, your DM is flat wrong. Of course, I'm sure alot of people who played in earlier editions house rule undead to work like that still.
Roivas 01-03-07, 03:19 AM	Until recently our group didn't even allow zombies to make attacks of opportunity, mostly due to the single actions only part of their entry. We also ruled that mindless creatures do not make attacks of opportunity. Once encounters with undead and mindless creatures became a joke at best we have since recinded these rules. But your GM seems to enjoy making undead quite a bit tougher than standard mindless undead. So next time you encounter mindless undead you should just use move earth to dig a trench about 10ft deep. Then lure the undead at you by casting invisiblity. Step four profit!
High Octane 01-03-07, 12:01 PM	In earlier editions of the game, we played it that undead could see invisible creatures because they saw the "Lifeforce", alot like the Libris Mortis feat. However, in D&D 3.X, this was dropped, and the rules are alot more explicit than they were in earlier editions. Undead do not by default have any sensory powers above and beyond the norm, except Darkvision 60 ft. As far as the rules go, your DM is flat wrong. Of course, I'm sure alot of people who played in earlier editions house rule undead to work like that still. Yeah, hes a big time 1st edition player. He played 1st edition for years before converting to 3.5 a year or so ago, and he still plays 1st with me weekly. First thing I said to him was "you're thinking first edition". I did try to hold back my argumentative skills a bit.
ff6shadow 01-03-07, 12:45 PM	As for the question "Why does Hide from Undead exist?" The idea behind this spell is that while clerics are usually lacking in stealth spells, they can create stealth in relation to their primary opponent, undead. This is backed by the fact that a Hide From Animals spells exist. If Hide From Undead means undead must be immune to invisibility, then cerntainly Hide From Animal (Druid 1, Ranger 1) means animals are immune to invisibility. Its a simple case of a spell that grants are specific effect being a lower level than the generic effect, and being available to a caster who is not generally permitted to have the full generic effect.
Falln 01-03-07, 04:47 PM	Some undead are only parts of what was once a monster. For example Crawling Claws. These undeads do find what they want to kill. Ok they are mindless, they don't use much tactics, they simply attack. The basic question is: how does your DM thinks invisibility works? Is an invisibility only some kind of cloaking mechanism? does it also hides smell, body heat, life, sound(like hearth beating), ... If invisibility is only an illusion spell (like we play it) then it only works on the visual part, so it hides an object/person/creature from other peoples eyes. There is also a spell called: invisibilty from undead. This spell hides everything from the senses of undead (so they can notice the life force, see them, ...). There's also the invisibility from animals spell. This spell hides the caster complete from animals only. They can locate, nor smell, ... them. I guess most DM's simply solve this by using a house rule. If the DM says illusions work against undead, then there's no problem. If he says it doesn't work, then you need something else. @High Octane: quote "You should read that article. That makes your average skeleton as good as a true sight divination alarm spell that cant be dispelled." => if you think a simply invisibilty should allow everyone to enter whatever they want un-noticed unless there's a true sight divination alarm spell in the area, then that's your right. But a simple pit trap which works on the weight of someone walking across it, can also act as an alarm. Or the simple rope + tin cans trick.
High Octane 01-03-07, 04:50 PM	Im just saying that CR 1/2 creatures shouldnt have immunity to invisibility.
Falln 01-03-07, 05:10 PM	they aren't immune, they simply need an other kind of invisibility :) but every DM can use whatever he wants to in his own campaign, so you're also right Octane