Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Svenry 03-22-04, 01:47 PM	You can charge as a standard action, moving only your normal speed before the attack, this I know. But, can you charge on a readied steady action? {pg. 155} If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed... You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn(such as during a surprise round) Only part that throws me is the 'on your turn,' but you affectively postpone your turn to ready for the condition. You only have a standard action, like that type of charge requires. Why couldn't you prepare to rush a wizard if he starts to cast?
Dalaeck 03-22-04, 01:57 PM	In 3rd edition yes. In 3.5 no. No comment.
Beamup 03-22-04, 02:15 PM	Interpretation the first: No. Even in situations where you can normally do a "partial charge" (e.g. slowed, surprise round) you can't ready one. Charging is a full-round action, and nowhere in its description does it say it can be otherwise. It happens to be a full-round action with the special characteristic that you can perform a variant of it if you are otherwise limited to a standard or move action, but it remains a full-round action, and thus cannot be readied under any circumstances. Interpretation the second: Only during a surprise round, if you're slowed, or a similar situation. If you can take a full-round action on your turn, the option for a standard-action charge does not exist. Personally, I think interpretation 2 is more reasonable (especially given the footnote on table 8-2), but a case can be made for 1 (that the description overrides and clarifies the footnote rather than vice versa). It is, however, an entirely reasonable houserule to allow it IMO.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-22-04, 04:41 PM	I'd agree with Beamup's interpretation #2. The "standard action" of a slowed character or one acting on a surprise round isn't really standard, it just resembles a standard action in most ways. However it also allows for a charge, because it's actually a bit more than a standard action.
tarkin 03-22-04, 04:48 PM	I would let them do it. Call a readied action "restricted" and it looks fine.
Beamup 03-22-04, 04:57 PM	Just had another thought. You'd have to put some restrictions on the readied charge (if you allow it), or Charge would get a lot more powerful. Consider the following actions for a round: "I charge the ogre." "You can't, there's a table in the way." "OK, I take a move action to move over to the right of the table." "Fine. And your standard action?" "I ready a partial charge at the ogre." "Trigger condition?" "If a microsecond passes." Basically, it would go a long way towards eliminating the unobstructed-straight-line-path drawback to charging if you just allowed a partial charge to be Readied. You could say something like "you can only ready a partial charge if you have not already moved during the round" as one possible fix for this. Actually, now that I think about it, this may well be the reason the designers didn't allow a partial charge normally.
UZI 03-22-04, 05:26 PM	Heck, any mindless zombie can do a partial charge. You can only move your base movement though.
Svenry 03-22-04, 05:56 PM	In the quote I provided from the player's handbook, you can, without doubt, make a charge as a move or standard action. The question is, is it ok to ready a standard action for a charge. It sounds like a sound tactical option, which I happen to support, but the wording brings together doubts. I could see maybe adding a seperate DMs ruling that you can't do anything but ready the action to charge?
Hypersmurf 03-22-04, 06:25 PM	Originally posted by Svenry In the quote I provided from the player's handbook, you can, without doubt, make a charge as a move or standard action. ... but only if you are restricted to making only a standard or move action on your turn. And if you're restricted to only a move action, you still have a problem... because at that point, you're allowed to charge as a standard action, but you don't have any standard actions available. So if you're nauseated (move action only), you're allowed to charge as a standard action rather than a full round action (per the footnote to 8-2)... but with no standard action, you can't actually make use of that. If you are not under any sort of Slow effect, Surprise round, or whatever, you are not restricted. Even if you Ready an action, you had the option of moving first. If you didn't, it's because you elected to take only a standard action... not because you were restricted to only a standard action on your turn. And the fact that you can only Ready a standard action is irrelevant, because at the point that you take that Readied action, it's not "on your turn". -Hyp.
BenjCano 03-22-04, 07:24 PM	I'll let the rules speak for me. From the 3.5 SRD Charging is a special full-round action... And... From the 3.5 SRD Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action I really don't think anything more needs to be said.
Svenry 03-22-04, 09:34 PM	BenjCano, the rules on charge stretch across a couple pages. You should try reading all of them before saying, "I'll let the rules speak for me." It says you can make a charge as a standard or move action (pg. 155), if you are restricted to take only a standard or move action on your turn. Even if you Ready an action, you had the option of moving first. If you didn't, it's because you elected to take only a standard action... not because you were restricted to only a standard action on your turn. To Hypersmurf, that's what I was thinking when I posed the question. The problem is, when you ready your action, you turn shifts to that point in the combat, permanently shifting your init, just before whoever is triggering the action, so, in essence, it is your turn and you are restricted to taking only a standard action. You can see how easily it could go both ways. To really resolve this question I need someone with unusual knowledge, because I already read everything directly related to the subject (people who read dragon magazines or happened apon something in a random section of the books). To a much earlier post, you need a solid trigger for a readied action. Ultimately it's the DMs discretion if he will allow the milisecond thing, but I wouldn't. It's not a trigger, like an alarm or someone casting. I think there is a rule in the book about charge that you can't use any movement before charging (I'm not with my books right now, so I can't confirm it).
Hypersmurf 03-22-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by Svenry To Hypersmurf, that's what I was thinking when I posed the question. The problem is, when you ready your action, you turn shifts to that point in the combat, permanently shifting your init, just before whoever is triggering the action, so, in essence, it is your turn and you are restricted to taking only a standard action. Not quite. "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." Then, "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes." Notice the action occurs after your turn is over, and before your next turn begins. Therefore it is not occurring either on your turn, or on your next turn. While you are taking your readied action, it is not your turn. Notice that while your initiative result does indeed change, it changes after you've completed your readied action, and applies to the rest of the encounter. Your initiative result does not change when you ready the action; it does not change before or during the readied action; it changes after the readied action completes. Again, while you are taking your readied action, it is not your turn. And therefore since you can only charge as a standard action if you are restricted on your turn, the restriction of a readied action (which does not occur on your turn) does not apply. -Hyp.
BenjCano 03-23-04, 03:45 AM	Originally posted by Svenry BenjCano, the rules on charge stretch across a couple pages. You should try reading all of them before saying, "I'll let the rules speak for me." It says you can make a charge as a standard or move action (pg. 155), if you are restricted to take only a standard or move action on your turn. I consulted page 155, and what I found says: "You CAN'T use this option if you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." I'd like to repeat that, because it sounds vaguelly important. "You CAN'T use this option if you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." So...if I ready an action...I am restricting myself to a move or standard action on my turn...and thus can't charge.
TieraStarr 03-23-04, 03:47 AM	The 3.0 FAQ explicitly allowed it, but with the caveat that if you had moved earlier in the round, that movement counted towards the charge. Thus if you moved and readied a partial charge, then the charge would have to be in the same direction as the move. =============== PS: I disagree with the charge limitation, because of the following two situations (both involving a corridoor that turns a corner: Situation A: The dwarf double-moves 40' to the end of the coridoor, next round he turns, readies his shield (move-equiv action) and charges 10' to attack the waiting monster. Situation B: The readies his shield (move-equiv) and moves 20'. Next round he moves the remaining 20' to the end of the coridoor, turns and then a further 10' to the waiting monster, but cannot attack because the corner violates the charge action. ================ House Rule: The last 10' must be in a straight line to be eligable for a charge. -Tiera
bitnine 03-23-04, 03:54 AM	Originally posted by BenjCano "You CAN'T use this option if you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." I... think you might be misreading that. What I see is:If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round).And from a reading of that, it would seem that you only gain the option to make a partial charge when you are restricted to taking a standard or move action during your turn. When you ready an action, you certainly are restricted to making a move action - but it most definately is not during your turn.
UZI 03-23-04, 09:05 AM	Well, if you aren't trying to interrupt, you could always simply delay and then charge. Quoth the SRD If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round So, if you ready a charge and the action is triggered before the initiative counter cycles back to the top, you cannot charge. If you delay till practically the end of the initiative count, then ready a charge, and the trigger occurs in the next turn, your initiative rises, you take the action, and are restricted? I only point this out, because in this circumstance, your initiative rises, that becomes your turn, and you can only take the readied action.
Steelwill 03-24-04, 05:20 AM	In 3.0 a partial charge was considered a partial action, a readied action had to be only a partial action, dring a surprise round you could only take a partial action. For consistancy i would definitely determine that anytime you are taking a partial action, whether due to an imposed restriction from an outside force (ie Slow spell), a limit in time (ie Surprise round and arguably time allowed to a readied action that interrupts someone else's action), or self-imposed limiting (for certain a readied action), then you may take a partial charge. Now how this exactly translates into 3.5 since partial actions don't exist, and everything is Standard, Move, Full-Round, Free, or No Actions, I am not sure, but I would rule as the DM, that since in 3.5 the readied action allows for either a Move Action or a Standard Action (equivalent in most respects to partial actions from 3.0), I would still allow a partial charge. in particualar since Zombies can do it, no matter what other circumstance applies, just because they are slow by nature. To say otherwise would indicate that a character has to perform optimally in every situation unless circumstances such as surprise, Slow spell effects, etc force them to do lesser. That makes no sense to me. This is the logic I would use to justify allowing partial charges as readied actions, in either version of D&D 3. As far as players abusing the criteria that activates a readied action, that IMHO only occurs if said players have a completely senseless DM who allows for such abuses. My 2 cents, hope it helps.
Tonus 03-25-04, 12:12 PM	I would have to say that you cannot ready a charge under any circumstances. Charging is a full-round action, and therefore cannot be readied. Allthough there is an allowance made to perform a modified charge when you cannot perform a full-round action, it does not follow that one could likewise prepare a charge under the same limitations. Indeed, if one does allow it, the limitation becomes an advantage, not a penalty.
Hypersmurf 03-25-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Tonus Charging is a full-round action, and therefore cannot be readied. Allthough there is an allowance made to perform a modified charge when you cannot perform a full-round action, it does not follow that one could likewise prepare a charge under the same limitations. Indeed, if one does allow it, the limitation becomes an advantage, not a penalty. "May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round." If the Charge action may be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round; and the Ready action allows you to ready a standard, move, or free action; then you can ready the Charge action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round. -Hyp.
autolycus 03-26-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf "May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round." If the Charge action may be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round; and the Ready action allows you to ready a standard, move, or free action; then you can ready the Charge action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round. -Hyp. I strongly disagree, Hyp. If you are able to ready an action and then take that action, then you are not limited to taking only a single action in a round. You don't get to choose to limit yourself. That would be like making an attack, and then charging someone because you are now restricted to only a move action. To quote the rulebook: "You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn(such as during a surprise round)" You are restricted on your turn because of circumstances that are not chosen. For example: You are a zombie and therefore can not perform a full round action. It is the suprise round and you are restricted to a standard action. Thus, you can't ready an action and then claim that you are restricted during your turn. You weren't restricted when you chose your options for the round...thus you can not make a charge as a standard action. Hope this makes sense. -autolycus
UZI 03-26-04, 11:40 AM	Quoth the SRD If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round That would make me believe you are restricted, since you can only take the readied action in the round, and it would only be a move or standard action. Now here's the 64,000 gp question: if you are slowed, can you ready an action?
Verenal 03-26-04, 12:30 PM	That's easy. 64,000 gp is too much. :) from SRD: Ready: The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. Slow: An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed. Seems simple enough, you can ready an action when slowed
Hypersmurf 03-26-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by autolycus You are restricted on your turn because of circumstances that are not chosen. For example: You are a zombie and therefore can not perform a full round action. It is the suprise round and you are restricted to a standard action. Thus, you can't ready an action and then claim that you are restricted during your turn. You weren't restricted when you chose your options for the round...thus you can not make a charge as a standard action. You've misunderstood me completely. I agree with everything you say - readying an action does not make you restricted. But, if you are already restricted - if you are a zombie, or it is the surprise round - then you can charge as a standard action, and therefore you can ready a charge. If you are not restricted, you cannot charge as a standard action, and cannot ready a charge. -Hyp.
autolycus 03-26-04, 03:59 PM	Ah...sorry for the missunderstanding, Hyp. Though I do believe that zombies should get an extra action on any round where they moan "Braaaaainsssss". :D
Ander00 03-28-04, 07:51 PM	I'll agree that this is the letter of the rules and that using a readied charge to get around corners and other obstacles or to ready an item before executing the charge smells strongly of cheese (aside from the fact that the first application would already generate some smell, as "If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent."). However, if a zombie can ready a charge, wouldn't it make sense to allow others, who are not as slow, to at the very least do the same and ready such a 'restricted' charge if they forfeit their move action? cheers
Verenal 03-29-04, 07:08 AM	Ander00, you can't use readied charge to get around corners, because then your movement isn't in a straight line. This seems to be wrong. Thanks for correction, Beamup.
Beamup 03-29-04, 09:50 AM	Originally posted by Verenal Ander00, you can't use readied charge to get around corners, because then your movement isn't in a straight line. Unfortunately, you can. The straight-line restriction on a Charge only applies during the charge. If readied charges are allowed without further restrictions, getting around corners and charging in the same round is possible, so long as you had line of sight (a far less restrictive condition) at the beginning of your turn. Requiring all movement in the round where you ready a Charge to be in a straight line is a reasonable way to prevent that, but the RAW don't (because the RAW don't allow movement and readying a charge in the same round anyway).
D+1 04-01-04, 03:16 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf readying an action does not make you restricted. But, if you are already restricted - if you are a zombie, or it is the surprise round - then you can charge as a standard action, and therefore you can ready a charge. If you are not restricted, you cannot charge as a standard action, and cannot ready a charge. So a human and a zombie are in combat. The zombie can actually ready a charge, and in so doing interrupt what the human might attempt because the zombie is actually RESTRICTED in what he can do in the round. The human on the other hand, who is UNrestricted, CANNOT ready a charge and in so doing interrupt what the zombie might attempt. Being slow and restricted actually becomes an advantage over being faster and unrestricted. I don't see that that makes a bit of sense. It may be what the rule IS, but it's nonsense.
Hypersmurf 04-01-04, 04:15 AM	Originally posted by D+1 It may be what the rule IS... That's right. -Hyp.
Chauncy Butterpants III 04-01-04, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf But, if sucka be already restricted - if sucka be a zombie, or it be da surprise round - then sucka can charge as a standard action, and therefore sucka can ready a charge. Originally posted by D+1 It may be what da rule IS, but it's nonsense. When a rule creates a nonsense result you should look for a different interpretation. This is a bit of a stretch but I think the easiest fix is to ignore the table on PHB p. 141 fn 5 which designates the "partial charge" as a std. action and consider it a "special full-round action for those whose full-round is one action." For one, this eliminates the illogical situation of a character restricted to a move action taking the "partial charge" as a std. action (a minor terminology problem but still illogical). Second, it eliminates the zombie situation above, since a full-round action cannot be readied, without altering the mechanics of the "partial charge" in any other way. The charge text never describes the "partial charge" as a std. or move action, it simply says it is a modified form of the normal full-round charge available to those restricted to either a move or standard action. By delineating it as a std. action in the footnote it just creates the above problems. If it remained a special full-round action, like charge, but one that was only available to restricted creatures as per the text, those whose full-round is one action, then the problems disappear.
Hypersmurf 04-01-04, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by Chauncy Butterpants III The charge text never describes the "partial charge" as a std. or move action, it simply says it is a modified form of the normal full-round charge available to those restricted to either a move or standard action. By delineating it as a std. action in the footnote it just creates the above problems. If it remained a special full-round action, like charge, but one that was only available to restricted creatures as per the text, those whose full-round is one action, then the problems disappear. It means a zombie can still Ready a Restricted Withdraw, and a normal person can't. Restricted Withdraw: If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed). -Hyp.
Tonus 04-01-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf "May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round." The exemption is that it may be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking a single action in a round. It does not follow that it may also be readied as a standard action. It is simply absurd to give extra options to a creature that has limited movement that are not available to an unrestricted creature.
Chauncy Butterpants III 04-01-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf It means a zombie can still Ready a Restricted Withdraw, and a normal person can't. Touche, though since the restricted withdraw is wholly analogous to the restricted charge, modified versions of full-round actions, for consistency it also could be changed to a "restricted" full-round action without changing any of the other mechanics. I'm not saying this is the literal interpretation of the rules, it's not, I think you're entirely correct from a rules standpoint (including that readying does not make you restricted). I just think that from a design standpoint that the rules should leave restricted full-round actions as just that, restricted full-round actions. "Full-round action" or "move action" is, after all, just a part of the terminological mechanics of the game, a categorization used to dictate under what circumstances an action can be taken and in what combinations. But in this case the circumstances under which a restricted withdraw or charge can be used are clearly defined and it will also always be the only action taken in that round. If you don't need the external reference of an action type to tell you either when it can be done (in this case that info is contained within the relevant description) or what other actions it can be combined with (none), then the action type is really unimportant and can only create problems, as I think it's done here. Since either takes the whole round to complete and can't be combined with other actions, both of which are characterisitics of the full-round action, why not call restricted charges and withdrawals restricted full-round actions? It doesn't affect the mechanics of any other actions or action-types (since they are only available to "restricted" actors and other full-round actions are only available to "unrestricted" actors). I think the designers may have just assigned these the std. action-type instinctually without realizing the consequences.
Beamup 04-02-04, 11:25 AM	Alternatively, you could allow anyone to ready a partial charge in any round as long as they haven't already moved during the round. IMO a far more logical way to rerule things than never allowing a readied partial charge.
Hypersmurf 04-02-04, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by Chauncy Butterpants III Touche, though since the restricted withdraw is wholly analogous to the restricted charge, modified versions of full-round actions, for consistency it also could be changed to a "restricted" full-round action without changing any of the other mechanics. Heh. So we're going to ignore the fact that the table says a restricted Charge is a standard action, because the text doesn't specifically note the same fact. And we're going to ignore the fact that both the table and the text specifically state that a restricted Withdraw is a standard action, because the text for restricted Charge doesn't specifically state that a restricted Charge is a standard action (though the table does, and the text doesn't actually come right out and contradict the table). And the justification for saying that a restricted Withdraw is not a standard action is "consistency"? -Hyp.
Chauncy Butterpants III 04-02-04, 04:11 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf And the justification for saying that a restricted Withdraw is not a standard action is "consistency"? Um, yes. I'm not referring to the consistency of the text with itself but the inconsistency created when let's say a zombie, who is supposed to have fewer options available for actions, by way of a rules quirk has more options than a normal actor. This is a logic and realism inconsistency (at the very least its own internal logic) that is easily remedied by changing those restricted actions to special full-round actions. The rules are meant to create the mechanisms for a game that is at least consistent with its own internal logic, and when the rules fail to accomplish this, those rules should be changed. The obvious intention here is that a zombie is more restricted than the norm, a single action vs. two, a partial charge vs. a charge, etc. Since the ability of a zombie to ready a charge when others can't violates this premise it should be adjusted in the simplest and least problematic manner possible.
Hypersmurf 04-02-04, 05:58 PM	Originally posted by Chauncy Butterpants III Um, yes. I'm not referring to the consistency of the text with itself but the inconsistency created when let's say a zombie, who is supposed to have fewer options available for actions, by way of a rules quirk has more options than a normal actor. He doesn't have more options. The human can make a full attack. The zombie can't. The human can run. The zombie can't. The human can charge twice his speed. The zombie can't. The human can withdraw twice his speed. The zombie can't. The human can load a heavy crossbow in a single round. The zombie can't. The human can stand up from prone and attack in a single round. The zombie can't. The human can use feats like Shot on the Run or Spring Attack. The zombie can't. The lack of restriction opens up dozens of tactical possibilities to the human that the zombie has no access to. The restriction grants the zombie exactly two options that the human lacks - ready a Charge, or ready a Withdraw. "Two" is not more than... well, whatever large number is on the other side of the equation. -Hyp.
Chauncy Butterpants III 04-02-04, 08:36 PM	Listen, it is the fact that the zombie has options that the human doesn't (readying a restricted charge or withdrawal) that is the problem here, not all of the other options that a human has that a zombie can't perform. Perhaps I misspoke when I said "more" options when I meant that the zombie has "options not available to others" but I think the meaning was pretty clear from that and previous posts. The restricted actor (zombie, surprise round) should not have options that are never available to the normal actor but should be only able to perform a subset of actions available to the normal actor in a normal round, including abbreviated versions of those actions (partial charge). Listing all of the actions that are unavailable to the zombie does nothing to counter the argument that a zombie, who is supposed to be able to perform about half of what a human can perform in a round, should not be able to ready a partial charge when a human cannot ready any sort of charge, it just reaffirms the basic idea that humans, being able to accomplish more in a round, are supposed to have options that the zombie doesn't and not the reverse.