Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-17-07, 02:41 PM	Greetings, fellow board members. I'm creating this thread to help my players. Next weekend they will be facing their strongest opponent so far, the BBEG of the current campaign, and I wanted to ask you if you could provide them with some strategies and tips. The reason I'm asking is because most of the players still aren't really experienced with all the rules and don't really have any experience with this kind of encounters. Even though this BBEG is fairly powerful, I think the PC's can handle it if they at least have a decent fighting plan and some back-up strategies in case something goes wrong. I want it to be a memorable fight, but I also want to give my players a fighting chance, that's why I came to you to provide some help for my players. In order for you to help my players you will of course need some information about the BBEG and the PC's, so here it is. BBEG: Akyr Ice, Human wizard 3/sorcerer 2/ultimate magus 10 (lvl 15 total). I can't tell you too much about this guy because I don't want to give away too much information to my players, but I think the more experienced players around there know what a mage like this is capable of doing, so you can give some pointers to my players. He has all sorts of spells in his repertoire and doesn't really specialize in a particular kind of magic. And before I forget, this guy will be buffed like any decent mage BBEG :D . Also he will have some back-up consisting of a few large melee creatures (low AC, high HP), but I can't reveal too much about this either. The party: Jonathan: cat hengeyokai rogue 13, dual wielding short swords, known for crazy stunts, sometimes suffers from bad rolls at the wrong time, the skill and trap monkey. Alexander: saint human wizard 3/sorcerer 2/ultimate magus 8 (lvl 13), one of the mages, prefers evocation, but also has plenty of other spells. Played by the most experienced player of the group besides myself. Alorien: human sorcerer 13 (lvl 13), the second mage, specializes in damaging spells. Rancor: half-fiend human fighter 2/cleric 11 (lvl 13), the divine caster and healer. Doesn't resurrect because he believes that that which is dead must stay dead, also hates necromancy. Lass: half-elf druid 13 (lvl 13), the other divine caster and back-up melee character. Victor: human barbarian 1/fighter 8/exotic weapon master 1/warblade 3 (lvl 13), specialised in the use of the bastard sword, one of the melee characters. Nameless (for now): human ex-paladin 5/blackguard 8 (lvl 13), the second melee character, wields a greatsword. Duncan: draconic feral human barbarian 1/fighter 2/warblade 7/exotic weapon master 1/swordsage 2 (lvl 13), current NPC ally, the third and last melee character, wields a great scimitar. As for the environment, the battle will probably be in the open on the plains, possibly with some castle ruins, so there may be some options to get cover, but not too much. Thanks a lot for any replies, also on behalve of my players. Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-17-07, 03:21 PM	Finished my post :D . Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.
Arturius1 03-17-07, 03:49 PM	Have the tanks grapple and pin the BBEG. Coup des grace.
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-17-07, 05:06 PM	This is a rather basic strategy, but for it to function the melee characters or the druid would have to get close enough to the mage. With all the spells at his disposal this could be a problem. Does anyone have any other ideas, maybe experiences from their own campaign? Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.
Comus 03-17-07, 05:50 PM	Greater Dispel Magic. First mage in the room hits the BBEG with it. Second one readies an action to counterspell with it. If they can't cast it, they'd better get some scrolls or something. While they're at it, MDJ his arse, too. Then a Dimensional Anchor. Then the Tanks rush in and grapple. Meanwhile, anyone who isn't good at grappling or busy keeping the mage down should be firing sleep arrows coated with drow poison at the mage as quickly as possible. Two saves per hit, all it takes is for him to roll a 1 and the fight is over. Now, just in case that doesn't work, they should also grab a couple candles of invocation and gate in some buddies. Buddies with a higher CR than the BBEG.
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-18-07, 07:00 AM	I forgot to mention, due to circumstances (read: this all takes place in a desolate wasteland with no live what so ever thanks to an Apocalypse from the Sky spell, courtesy of the previous DM :nonono: ) there's noone around to get any magic items from in about a 400 mile radius (don't ask :shifty: , I took over the campaign when the previous DM didn't know what to do anymore). So the PC's will have to make due with their current gear, which doesn't include Drow poison or Candles of invocation. In fact, it mostly includes the standard items, so some magic weapons, armor, ability boosting items and that's it. So nothing special really. They will have to rely on their own abilities, basically. Sorry I forgot to mention this. Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.
draco1119 03-18-07, 07:10 AM	Have the Druid Summon Nature's Ally several times, and, if they have the gp, the cleric should be praying for Planar Allys. A couple of Hound Archons should even the score, along with Dire Bears. :P
kelvinaw273 03-18-07, 08:11 AM	Your main problem is going to be pinning this foe down. If you can do that, spread out and summon as much as possible to hit him from as many different directions as you can. Spell-casters should concentrate on buffing, healing and countering rather than trying to hit him directly.
runestar 03-18-07, 08:11 AM	How exactly is your BBEG being built? If you are using the conventional method, it won't be very strong, and the party won't have any problems with it. It might even be a tad weak overall, since it can only cast 6th lv spells, though its saving grace is its higher caster lv. Are you using the practiced spellcaster trick which lets you concentrate most of the Ultimate magus spellcaster lv improvements apply to your wiz, rather than being alternated between wiz and sorc lvs? This way, your wiz should be able to manage 7th lv spells(lv13 spellcasting) and your sorc is 9th lv. This gives you wizard caster lv of 21. Disintegrate is just plain nasty here...:P
Comus 03-18-07, 11:28 AM	I forgot to mention, due to circumstances (read: this all takes place in a desolate wasteland with no live what so ever thanks to an Apocalypse from the Sky spell, courtesy of the previous DM :nonono: ) there's noone around to get any magic items from in about a 400 mile radius (don't ask :shifty: , I took over the campaign when the previous DM didn't know what to do anymore). So the PC's will have to make due with their current gear, which doesn't include Drow poison or Candles of invocation. In fact, it mostly includes the standard items, so some magic weapons, armor, ability boosting items and that's it. So nothing special really. They will have to rely on their own abilities, basically. Sorry I forgot to mention this. Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw. Pfft. Four hundred miles, four thousand miles, whatever. Teleport. Can't do that? Plane Shift. Can't even do that? Then force-march out and go buy those spells, because at the level you're playing at, they should be doing these things regularly. No high-level party actually travels overland unless they're forced to.
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-18-07, 02:33 PM	How exactly is your BBEG being built? If you are using the conventional method, it won't be very strong, and the party won't have any problems with it. It might even be a tad weak overall, since it can only cast 6th lv spells, though its saving grace is its higher caster lv. Are you using the practiced spellcaster trick which lets you concentrate most of the Ultimate magus spellcaster lv improvements apply to your wiz, rather than being alternated between wiz and sorc lvs? This way, your wiz should be able to manage 7th lv spells(lv13 spellcasting) and your sorc is 9th lv. This gives you wizard caster lv of 21. Disintegrate is just plain nasty here...:P Yes, Runestar, I am using the Practiced Spellcaster feat to concentrate on the wizard spellcasting. I'll probably also be using the theurgic specialist feat for abjuration (this guy's an Abjurer who loves to buff and protect himself with spells) so he won't go down that easy. I do wan't to give my players at least some opposition, not a walk through the park :P . Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.
Drag0nUL 03-18-07, 02:39 PM	You have a lot of spell-casters. This would give you the luxury to always keep somebody with a ready action to counterspell the BBEG's spells. Apart from that, get your hard hitting guys airborne ASAP.
Lindwyrm 03-18-07, 04:10 PM	What about good old fashioned silence spells? Let the party tank go in with a silence rock in his pocket, and then beat the mage up whilst he tries to find non V spells? Basic, sometimes seen as a desperation move, but it can be immensely effective.
draco1119 03-19-07, 04:21 AM	Yes, Runestar, I am using the Practiced Spellcaster feat to concentrate on the wizard spellcasting. I'll probably also be using the theurgic specialist feat for abjuration (this guy's an Abjurer who loves to buff and protect himself with spells) so he won't go down that easy. I do wan't to give my players at least some opposition, not a walk through the park :P . Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw. Let one of your arcane casters be able to cast Reciprocal Gyre. Repeatedly.
StarFyre 03-19-07, 07:23 AM	which book is that "magus" prestige class in? Complete Mage or Complete Arcane? Sanjay
draco1119 03-19-07, 08:47 AM	which book is that "magus" prestige class in? Complete Mage or Complete Arcane? Sanjay Mage. Along with Abjurant Champion, which could also get very nasty on this BBEG...
Krusk 03-19-07, 11:46 AM	Have one of the mages dimension door the tanks right next to him. and then quickened dimension door away. druid should entangle all the big meat shield guys. turn into a small bird and summon some big allies down below you. Buff people as needed. the other mage should probably just blast away the large guards, disintegrate or orb spell. clerics should be flame striking or destruction-ing the area. if its possible try to gate some help in. possible pre battle buffs- fly haste resist element-one he is known to use girillions blessing bull str con boost stat. --also do not have them try a grapple and coup de grace. Not only is that a bad tactic. -you grapple and the big guys walk up and pummel you- but it isn't allowed. A pinned character is not helpless and can't be coup de graced.
ShubNiggurath 03-19-07, 12:40 PM	You have an *army* of players, I hope that you are preparing A LOT of buddies for your BBEG, otherwise they will simply out-number-of-action you. Having siad that, players tactic: 1)All the players (yes, players, not characters) should smack the druid for choosing an half-elf. If you play an half-elf, either you are a diplomancer, or you are crazy. 2)Pre-buff. The more you can. Try to scry/foresee/augury before the battle to know when it will start in advance. 3)On the first round the two arcanists should greater dispel and dimensional anchor the BBEG. The druid should fly as a crow towards the BBEG. All the others+animal companion engage the other baddies 4)The magus readies to counterspell from now on. The sorcerer readies the most damaging spell he has to interrupt the BBEG if he casts. Others+animal companion keep fighting. The druid lands close to BBEG and wildshapes into a dire bear. 5)Druid grapples, you win.
Black Kitten 03-19-07, 01:56 PM	Greater Dispell Magic, have all 'melee' characters knock an arrow... "Oh mister Pinchcushon (sp?) feel my Base Attack Bonus!"
Ace_of_time 03-19-07, 06:39 PM	Cast haste on the thief and bar. Have them take care of the wizard. one tank and same magic should take care of the other guy but It needs to be clear the thief and Bar. that they are to take care of the boss first and let everyone else take care of the other one. heal when it is needed. your cleric should have mass heals to use stay with in reach of the area so he can hit everyone with it. They should flank the wizard for max effect.
celtredleg 03-19-07, 07:35 PM	Quick question. It appears you are not makeing your players pay for the various templates they have added on. Is this deliberate?? It looks like they are a bit overpowered for this guy, you may need plenty of melee monsters out there to slow them down. Also, you are alignment light right?? I am not to intense on that myself, but a saint in the same crowd as a half-fiend, and a blackguard seems a bit much. Of course, its your game, and I mean no disrespect, I just want to hear what should be a cool backstory.
TheDarkLord 03-19-07, 07:47 PM	You have three spellcasters, do what your party does best, destroy the world. In all seriousness though, the Melee characters should run interference and guard the other spellcaster. Forget buffing the meatshields, that bastard Magus has a crap fortitude if I ever saw one. Have one spellcaster ready Dispel's for counterspells on each round, also have some quickened Dispels for those times that the Magus quickens a spell himself. The two most powerful caster though should use a combination of Save or Die spells targeting the Magus' Fortitude save. Disintigrate, Finger of Death, Slay living, or all of the above. Ray of enfeeblement is also nice. Seriously, Spellcasters should attack spellcasters at this level, Give me one spellcaster against four melee tanks and the Spellcaster Will Win.
Ace_of_time 03-19-07, 10:01 PM	You have three spellcasters, do what your party does best, destroy the world. In all seriousness though, the Melee characters should run interference and guard the other spellcaster. Forget buffing the meatshields, that bastard Magus has a crap fortitude if I ever saw one. Have one spellcaster ready Dispel's for counterspells on each round, also have some quickened Dispels for those times that the Magus quickens a spell himself. The two most powerful caster though should use a combination of Save or Die spells targeting the Magus' Fortitude save. Disintigrate, Finger of Death, Slay living, or all of the above. Ray of enfeeblement is also nice. Seriously, Spellcasters should attack spellcasters at this level, Give me one spellcaster against four melee tanks and the Spellcaster Will Win. A wizard flanked by two melee 1 with rage and 1 more att and the other with sneak att and lets not forget AoO on spell casting. I say get them into the right spot, charge inand beat the snout out of him let the others caught when possible. Don't forget a thief of that level does worry about spells that much.
Argo 03-19-07, 10:50 PM	A wizard flanked by two melee 1 with rage and 1 more att and the other with sneak att and lets not forget AoO on spell casting. I say get them into the right spot, charge inand beat the snout out of him let the others caught when possible. Don't forget a thief of that level does worry about spells that much. Make the Rogue a 19th level Whisper Gnome. +10d6 sneak attack and Silence as a Spell-like ability.
TheDarkLord 03-19-07, 11:14 PM	A wizard flanked by two melee 1 with rage and 1 more att and the other with sneak att and lets not forget AoO on spell casting. I say get them into the right spot, charge inand beat the snout out of him let the others caught when possible. Don't forget a thief of that level does worry about spells that much. Um, yeah. What kind of high INT caster are you talking about? At 15th level I pretty much fly at will, not to mention spells like Dimension Door, Teleport, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, are among my basic defenses at those levels. A caster that high in level is pretty much Untouchable from a melee perspective. You of course could dispell him and all, but since he's a Higher CL good luck. I mean seriously, an Intelligent caster is not going to get caught in melee unless things go horribly wrong for him. To claim otherwise means you are not playing the full potential of a spellcaster. That's why I say let the spellcasters have it because they have the best shot of actually taking him down quickly, keeping him in the general area, and pretty much between the three of them, 2 levels below the Magus, should kill him in the first round. Give Wizards and the Ultimage Magus any time to buff and there is no way in hell Any melee character can touch them. That's the nature of Magic and High Level combat, Melee, for all its coolness, sucks (Part of the Reason I love ToB so much).
Chrono Nexus 03-19-07, 11:33 PM	The normal makeup of a BBEG encounter is usually the BBEG at one end of the room, his retinue of cohorts and bodyguards, and the entrance across from him. When combating a BBEG in this settup, terrain control will only be marginally useful, in keeping most of the minions out of the party's way. Since the main target is a single creature, targeted damaging effects and group flanking will work to the groups advantage. In other words; gank the mofo and take his lilly ass down. If the DM doesn't add extra stuff to confuscate and impede the pcs, this will be a short combat. A room full of illusory walls might do the trick, or perhaps add in a powerful monster such as a hydra to make circumventing the guard more dangerous. Also, mirror image, for all of it's being a level 2 spell, is one of the most useful for keeping someone alive.
Ace_of_time 03-19-07, 11:38 PM	Um, yeah. What kind of high INT caster are you talking about? At 15th level I pretty much fly at will, not to mention spells like Dimension Door, Teleport, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, are among my basic defenses at those levels. A caster that high in level is pretty much Untouchable from a melee perspective. You of course could dispell him and all, but since he's a Higher CL good luck. I mean seriously, an Intelligent caster is not going to get caught in melee unless things go horribly wrong for him. To claim otherwise means you are not playing the full potential of a spellcaster. That's why I say let the spellcasters have it because they have the best shot of actually taking him down quickly, keeping him in the general area, and pretty much between the three of them, 2 levels below the Magus, should kill him in the first round. Give Wizards and the Ultimage Magus any time to buff and there is no way in hell Any melee character can touch them. That's the nature of Magic and High Level combat, Melee, for all its coolness, sucks (Part of the Reason I love ToB so much). I thought we were all agreed to use one to debuff the wizard. And the bar has most of the time an 80' charge and 25 plus damage for great weapons and at least 28 from the thief with a good initiative. Thats 53 points gone on the 1st round. and if he isn't flank he going to worry about escape not buffing. If they can get him in the right spot one of them will get AoO against him. now I don't know what the avarage hp is for him but that would hurt. heck you could charge with all your meleee attackers and kill him before the 1st round is over.
TheDarkLord 03-19-07, 11:54 PM	I thought we were all agreed to use one to debuff the wizard. I myself think this would kinda be a waste of spells considering the gap in spellcaster level between the Magus and the Party. You'll be lucky if you could counterspell any of his spells, much less dispel him. And the bar has most of the time an 80' charge and 25 plus damage for great weapons and at least 28 from the thief with a good initiative. Thats 53 points gone on the 1st round. and if he isn't flank he going to worry about escape not buffing. If they can get him in the right spot one of them will get AoO against him. now I don't know what the avarage hp is for him but that would hurt. heck you could charge with all your meleee attackers and kill him before the 1st round is over. If they can get to him in one round. Remember he's got friends with him so straight up charging him might be out of the question. There is a reason they are called Meat shields. Also the Magus will already be buffed. Which means more than likely he's going to be hovering, if not already flying. Not to mention any kind of Contengiency spell's already on him for Dimension Door and teleport. AoO's are easily defeated by a concentration check. I think a monk feat called "Mage Killer" would help this out, but if you can't get to him, then it doesn't matter. I still believe the safest strategy is for the PC fighters to run interference and take the brunt of the punishment for the casters and let them make mincemeat out of the weak fortitude save of the magus.
Ace_of_time 03-20-07, 12:10 AM	Ether way the dude only has 35-40 base hp I don't see him making it to round three and thats only if he rolls go and every one else rolls bad. Made invis. or greater on him might make it a better encounter. I think I could beat them with just three people. really.
ZeroHour85 03-20-07, 12:28 AM	Edit: Dangit someone mentioned silence =/ Cast silence on a stone and throw it at the guy. Usually what I do... Awesome badguy, I play a Magus also as my main character in another campaign. With all the spells you have access to, the party hopefully has good reflexes with the fireballs and chain lightning that the guy can throw around. Also hopefully he doesnt carry a few rings of wizardry +3/4 like I do.
BowenSilverclaw1986 03-20-07, 11:43 AM	Quick question. It appears you are not makeing your players pay for the various templates they have added on. Is this deliberate?? It looks like they are a bit overpowered for this guy, you may need plenty of melee monsters out there to slow them down. Also, you are alignment light right?? I am not to intense on that myself, but a saint in the same crowd as a half-fiend, and a blackguard seems a bit much. Of course, its your game, and I mean no disrespect, I just want to hear what should be a cool backstory. The template thing is partially true, Celtredleg. With the Level Adjustment buyback rule from Unearthed Arcana the characters can have up to +2 in templates "for free" at this level. As for the half-fiend, he acquired his template in game due to a deal he struck with a powerful demon lord (after being sent to the Abyss by the last character of the guy who now plays the Ultimate Magus of the party)(I know it's actually an inherited template, but this guy did some decent roleplaying and it seemed like an interesting idea at the time, I'll just have to see how it turns out :P), this deal is also the reason his alignment shifted from neutral to evil. It has some interesting plot hook options if he doesn't get killed by one of the other characters (in other words, if he can control his evil tendencies, at least towards the rest of the PC's and innocent townsfolk and fuzzy bunnies). Also, the other PC's don't know that he's a half-fiend yet, and even though they're mostly inclined towards good, none of them are paladin-like good doers, if you know what I mean. And as for the Blackguard, that's a new character that won't be joining the party until after this BBEG fight. The player wanted to try an evil alignment for a change, so I gave him that option, but with the warning that I can't guarantee his safety if he goes chaotic evil on every woman, child and fuzzy bunny he sees. You could be right about the Saint/Blackguard problem, though, I guess we'll just have to see how that works if the Blackguard is an aggressive bunny-whacking maniac (now worried about letting one player play a Saint and another a Blackguard :mymy: :blush: :banghead: ). But żou're right, I'm not so tense on alignment either. I usually allow some straying from your alignment, but if you're playing something in particular, sucha as a Saint or a Paladin, I will enforce the alignment rules if you go to far. And yes, there will be some decent back-up for this BBEG. Thanks for your reply and interest in our gaming group :D . Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw.