Card Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Card Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fishfinger
01-06-08, 09:15 AM Hi All i was in a table top game on Saturday and i asked my DM if i could get a spend 100 gold on a +2 pack of cards (the +2 origonaly was designed for gamble but then he was kind enough to mention gamble is no longer a skill) so for the time being we put it down as a slight of hand / perform act but i was just curious whats the deal with gamble now also has this +2 been placed in the right place
DrMorganes
01-06-08, 01:02 PM As far as I know there aren't any core rules for gambling. You'll need to work out the specific mechanics with your DM. Perhaps this might work for card games (off the top of my head):
Opposed Profession (Gambler) checks, with a +2 synergy bonus for 5+ ranks in Bluff
Characters with no ranks in Profession (Gambler) may use the skill untrained. That is, they just make Wisdom checks.
Attempt a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to "deal from the bottom" and gain a +4 circumstance bonus for the hand/round/game. ALL opponents get a Spot check (DC equals your Sleight of Hand check result) to notice you cheating. If you fail your check, all opponents make a DC 15 Spot check to notice your attempt. Repercussions of getting caught are, of course, up to the DM. You cannot Take 10 on this check.
Playing with marked cards grants a +2 circumstance bonus to your check. This bonus stacks with the bonus from "dealing from the bottom"; circumstance bonuses from obviously different sources stack. All opponents at the table may attempt a single DC 15 Spot check per game to notice the marked cards. Masterwork Marked Cards don't increase the circumstance bonus. Instead they increase the Spot DC to 20. Playing with marked cards is generally considered cheating (see above).
A Natural 1 on this check always loses and a Natural 20 always wins, regardless of the check results of the players involved. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes the cards just don't fall your way!
A character can choose to "throw" a hand at any time before making a check. He automatically loses that hand. Card sharks frequently lose for a while to lull their opponents into betting large.

Another option is to use the Profession rules and make a Profession (Gambler) check. The DC would depend in part on the type of game (cards, dice, etc), with your success multiplied by whether you're playing Low, Medium, or High stakes.

If you wish, you can go "live" and play various dice games (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=dice+games&sp-a=sp10025a73&sp-p=all&sp-f=ISO-8859-1&sp-k=Dungeons+and+Dragons) at the table. Actually playing cards might work for characters with few or no ranks in Profession (Gambler), but characters with lots of ranks in the skill should probably stick to the abstraction of a dice-based resolution.
MrCustomer
01-06-08, 04:17 PM I would use the Profession skill, Profession lists only a variety of examples, but there is no reason why there cannot be other proffessions then those listed in the PHB. Like Prostitute or Gambler.

5 Ranks in Profession: Gambling should give a +2 Synergy bonus to Slight of Hand for dealing from the bottom, hiding cards in your sleeves, Shuffling cards to bring marked ones to the top (shaving the card to be slightly smaller or altering the texture of a card's surface to feel what it is)

5 ranks in Profession: Gambling should also give a +2 synergy bonus to spot checks to see marked cards.

Additionally 5 ranks in Bluff or Sense Motive should give a +2 Synergy check to Profession: Gambling to appropriate rolls to either bluff or sense someone bluffing.

Other then that in general you should treat Profession: Gambling like any other profession, where they can make half their skill check in GP per week employed at the job (Gambling) So in the case of someone with 5 ranks in Bluff, 5 ranks in Sense Motive and +2 Cards, 10 Ranks in Profession: Gambling and a Wisdom Mod of +3 they would roll (1d20+19) divided by 2, GP a week of Gambling, or Divided by 14 for one night of Gambling. As constant gambling and bluffing rolls every night they spend in a bar will slow the game alot.

Of course players like to have stakes, that is what Gambling is. In that case I would state that for every additional 10gp that the player puts up, they can add a +2 to that roll. (if he gambled 1000gp he would add a total of +200 to his roll) The offset being he has a (30-Skill Modifier)% chance of loosing 100% of the stakes and a (40-Skill Modifier)% chance of loosing Half of the Stakes and a (100-Skill Modifier)% chance of Winning double his stakes. Don't include the bonus given form the Stakes he puts down in the skill modifier.

So the above person with a skill modifier of +19, putting 1000gp down could earn (1d20+219)/2 gp a week with an 11% chance of loosing the stakes, 1000gp and a 21% chance of loosing half, 500gp, and an 81% chance of doubling his money, 2000gp. Of course this would be his choice, he could just go with the original Profession roll and risk nothing instead of putting money down.
Sinfire Titan
01-07-08, 07:13 AM Profession (Gambler) is an actual skill. See Complete Arcane for this info.
Tedronai
01-07-08, 09:23 AM Except that Proffession:Gambler represents the results of a prolonged duration of gambling, and not individual instances within that duration. It does not represent a single game of cards, but rather a WEEK'S worth of games of cards (or dice, or whatever). A high skill modifier represents the ability to recognize a strong or weak position, and knowledge of how to respond to that (whether to fold, hold, or raise, for example)
UAMDB
01-07-08, 10:12 AM Except that Proffession:Gambler represents the results of a prolonged duration of gambling, and not individual instances within that duration. It does not represent a single game of cards, but rather a WEEK'S worth of games of cards (or dice, or whatever). A high skill modifier represents the ability to recognize a strong or weak position, and knowledge of how to respond to that (whether to fold, hold, or raise, for example)

Thats what professional gamblers do. They sit at a table for hours on end. They do not measure success on a hand by hand count but by how they did in the long run.. ie the end of the night if it is a long night or the end of the week.

Coming from a person that use to play cards in a casino about 4 nights a week after work, the best players in the world can loose over a 3-4 hand run. I can beat Dolye Brunson playing heads up if we only play one hand. Its called luck. One hand of cards is luck.

The skill in cards is playing multiply hands over and over. Over the course of a night of playing cards, and playing at a steady pace of about 10-12 hands an hour, every player will been delt the same cards. The skill is in how you handle those same cards.

Example:

Two players at different times in the night are both delt two pair K's and 9's. Player 1 won $100 on the hand.
Player 2 won $25 on the hand. All other factors were even, but the skill level in player 1 was greater than player 2.

Profession Gambler should only be used for a long session of gambling. If it is just a few hands, then it is luck.
LinusMundane
01-07-08, 10:46 AM Example:

Two players at different times in the night are both delt two pair K's and 9's. Player 1 won $100 on the hand.
Player 2 won $25 on the hand. All other factors were even, but the skill level in player 1 was greater than player 2.

Profession Gambler should only be used for a long session of gambling. If it is just a few hands, then it is luck.

Those examples are a bit lacking, there is so much more to factor in, maybe player 1 is some punk kid whos been betting big all night with nothing and someone decides its time to go after him and loses, thats not skill that's carry over from the on-line craze gone bad. Or another player up against player 1 had 2 pair Q's and 10's and thought his hand was good so he bet bigger and lost. I agree with most of your post above but your examples are lacking....

My opinion would be to make it a Profession, used in a game its only gonna be an underused one shot thing most times, but its something that is easily falling under that realm...
UAMDB
01-07-08, 12:07 PM Those examples are a bit lacking, there is so much more to factor in, maybe player 1 is some punk kid whos been betting big all night with nothing and someone decides its time to go after him and loses, thats not skill that's carry over from the on-line craze gone bad. Or another player up against player 1 had 2 pair Q's and 10's and thought his hand was good so he bet bigger and lost. I agree with most of your post above but your examples are lacking....

My opinion would be to make it a Profession, used in a game its only gonna be an underused one shot thing most times, but its something that is easily falling under that realm...

I did not want to write out a hand history for both times, that is why I said all other factors were even.

Let me put it another way. I have been in games where in one hand (playing Texas Hold-em) one player lost everthing with an Ace high flush to a full house. I have also seen different players fold the same Ace high flush early because the realized (ie had more skill) that they were beat by a better hand.

I have also seen people win different amounts with the same hands because of the difference in skill when it comes to how to beat and when to beat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fishfinger 01-06-08, 09:15 AM	Hi All i was in a table top game on Saturday and i asked my DM if i could get a spend 100 gold on a +2 pack of cards (the +2 origonaly was designed for gamble but then he was kind enough to mention gamble is no longer a skill) so for the time being we put it down as a slight of hand / perform act but i was just curious whats the deal with gamble now also has this +2 been placed in the right place
DrMorganes 01-06-08, 01:02 PM	As far as I know there aren't any core rules for gambling. You'll need to work out the specific mechanics with your DM. Perhaps this might work for card games (off the top of my head): Opposed Profession (Gambler) checks, with a +2 synergy bonus for 5+ ranks in Bluff Characters with no ranks in Profession (Gambler) may use the skill untrained. That is, they just make Wisdom checks. Attempt a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to "deal from the bottom" and gain a +4 circumstance bonus for the hand/round/game. ALL opponents get a Spot check (DC equals your Sleight of Hand check result) to notice you cheating. If you fail your check, all opponents make a DC 15 Spot check to notice your attempt. Repercussions of getting caught are, of course, up to the DM. You cannot Take 10 on this check. Playing with marked cards grants a +2 circumstance bonus to your check. This bonus stacks with the bonus from "dealing from the bottom"; circumstance bonuses from obviously different sources stack. All opponents at the table may attempt a single DC 15 Spot check per game to notice the marked cards. Masterwork Marked Cards don't increase the circumstance bonus. Instead they increase the Spot DC to 20. Playing with marked cards is generally considered cheating (see above). A Natural 1 on this check always loses and a Natural 20 always wins, regardless of the check results of the players involved. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes the cards just don't fall your way! A character can choose to "throw" a hand at any time before making a check. He automatically loses that hand. Card sharks frequently lose for a while to lull their opponents into betting large. Another option is to use the Profession rules and make a Profession (Gambler) check. The DC would depend in part on the type of game (cards, dice, etc), with your success multiplied by whether you're playing Low, Medium, or High stakes. If you wish, you can go "live" and play various dice games (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=dice+games&sp-a=sp10025a73&sp-p=all&sp-f=ISO-8859-1&sp-k=Dungeons+and+Dragons) at the table. Actually playing cards might work for characters with few or no ranks in Profession (Gambler), but characters with lots of ranks in the skill should probably stick to the abstraction of a dice-based resolution.
MrCustomer 01-06-08, 04:17 PM	I would use the Profession skill, Profession lists only a variety of examples, but there is no reason why there cannot be other proffessions then those listed in the PHB. Like Prostitute or Gambler. 5 Ranks in Profession: Gambling should give a +2 Synergy bonus to Slight of Hand for dealing from the bottom, hiding cards in your sleeves, Shuffling cards to bring marked ones to the top (shaving the card to be slightly smaller or altering the texture of a card's surface to feel what it is) 5 ranks in Profession: Gambling should also give a +2 synergy bonus to spot checks to see marked cards. Additionally 5 ranks in Bluff or Sense Motive should give a +2 Synergy check to Profession: Gambling to appropriate rolls to either bluff or sense someone bluffing. Other then that in general you should treat Profession: Gambling like any other profession, where they can make half their skill check in GP per week employed at the job (Gambling) So in the case of someone with 5 ranks in Bluff, 5 ranks in Sense Motive and +2 Cards, 10 Ranks in Profession: Gambling and a Wisdom Mod of +3 they would roll (1d20+19) divided by 2, GP a week of Gambling, or Divided by 14 for one night of Gambling. As constant gambling and bluffing rolls every night they spend in a bar will slow the game alot. Of course players like to have stakes, that is what Gambling is. In that case I would state that for every additional 10gp that the player puts up, they can add a +2 to that roll. (if he gambled 1000gp he would add a total of +200 to his roll) The offset being he has a (30-Skill Modifier)% chance of loosing 100% of the stakes and a (40-Skill Modifier)% chance of loosing Half of the Stakes and a (100-Skill Modifier)% chance of Winning double his stakes. Don't include the bonus given form the Stakes he puts down in the skill modifier. So the above person with a skill modifier of +19, putting 1000gp down could earn (1d20+219)/2 gp a week with an 11% chance of loosing the stakes, 1000gp and a 21% chance of loosing half, 500gp, and an 81% chance of doubling his money, 2000gp. Of course this would be his choice, he could just go with the original Profession roll and risk nothing instead of putting money down.
Sinfire Titan 01-07-08, 07:13 AM	Profession (Gambler) is an actual skill. See Complete Arcane for this info.
Tedronai 01-07-08, 09:23 AM	Except that Proffession:Gambler represents the results of a prolonged duration of gambling, and not individual instances within that duration. It does not represent a single game of cards, but rather a WEEK'S worth of games of cards (or dice, or whatever). A high skill modifier represents the ability to recognize a strong or weak position, and knowledge of how to respond to that (whether to fold, hold, or raise, for example)
UAMDB 01-07-08, 10:12 AM	Except that Proffession:Gambler represents the results of a prolonged duration of gambling, and not individual instances within that duration. It does not represent a single game of cards, but rather a WEEK'S worth of games of cards (or dice, or whatever). A high skill modifier represents the ability to recognize a strong or weak position, and knowledge of how to respond to that (whether to fold, hold, or raise, for example) Thats what professional gamblers do. They sit at a table for hours on end. They do not measure success on a hand by hand count but by how they did in the long run.. ie the end of the night if it is a long night or the end of the week. Coming from a person that use to play cards in a casino about 4 nights a week after work, the best players in the world can loose over a 3-4 hand run. I can beat Dolye Brunson playing heads up if we only play one hand. Its called luck. One hand of cards is luck. The skill in cards is playing multiply hands over and over. Over the course of a night of playing cards, and playing at a steady pace of about 10-12 hands an hour, every player will been delt the same cards. The skill is in how you handle those same cards. Example: Two players at different times in the night are both delt two pair K's and 9's. Player 1 won $100 on the hand. Player 2 won $25 on the hand. All other factors were even, but the skill level in player 1 was greater than player 2. Profession Gambler should only be used for a long session of gambling. If it is just a few hands, then it is luck.
LinusMundane 01-07-08, 10:46 AM	Example: Two players at different times in the night are both delt two pair K's and 9's. Player 1 won $100 on the hand. Player 2 won $25 on the hand. All other factors were even, but the skill level in player 1 was greater than player 2. Profession Gambler should only be used for a long session of gambling. If it is just a few hands, then it is luck. Those examples are a bit lacking, there is so much more to factor in, maybe player 1 is some punk kid whos been betting big all night with nothing and someone decides its time to go after him and loses, thats not skill that's carry over from the on-line craze gone bad. Or another player up against player 1 had 2 pair Q's and 10's and thought his hand was good so he bet bigger and lost. I agree with most of your post above but your examples are lacking.... My opinion would be to make it a Profession, used in a game its only gonna be an underused one shot thing most times, but its something that is easily falling under that realm...
UAMDB 01-07-08, 12:07 PM	Those examples are a bit lacking, there is so much more to factor in, maybe player 1 is some punk kid whos been betting big all night with nothing and someone decides its time to go after him and loses, thats not skill that's carry over from the on-line craze gone bad. Or another player up against player 1 had 2 pair Q's and 10's and thought his hand was good so he bet bigger and lost. I agree with most of your post above but your examples are lacking.... My opinion would be to make it a Profession, used in a game its only gonna be an underused one shot thing most times, but its something that is easily falling under that realm... I did not want to write out a hand history for both times, that is why I said all other factors were even. Let me put it another way. I have been in games where in one hand (playing Texas Hold-em) one player lost everthing with an Ace high flush to a full house. I have also seen different players fold the same Ace high flush early because the realized (ie had more skill) that they were beat by a better hand. I have also seen people win different amounts with the same hands because of the difference in skill when it comes to how to beat and when to beat.