Caster Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thornoch
11-29-04, 02:39 AM I am new to the boards, so if anyone could answer this question or point me to where I can get the answer I would appreciate it.

I am a ninth level caster with craft wondrous item feat. The caster level for the ability increase items are all 8th, my DM recently ruled that the Caster level must be triple the bonus. What say you?

Also...
I cast Wall of Fire on a monster. He took the damage when the spell came into effect. On his turn, he moved along the line of fire and then out. Since he started out in the fire, does this mean he does not take the 'passing through' damage? Even though he started out in a square where the fire was burning, should he not have taken damage when he passed through the other burning squares?

Thanks
CCShinoby
11-29-04, 04:42 AM Well caster level = just = caster level

9th level is 9th level caster level

but if your DM made it a rule (A STUPID ONE) then its his rule .. he is the dm after all.. but if he states it is a normal rule ask him to show it too you cause I don't think its correct.. :S
ShadowDragon8685
11-29-04, 04:53 AM If he made that house rule, tell him that he's being a dick and unfairly screwing you, because you woulden't be able to create CL 7 items until the Epic levels.

Caster level is just that - the number of levels you have in the class you're using to create the item.

And yes, the monster should have taken Passing Through damage - for every Fire Wall square he passed through. If you're caught in the Wall of Fire zone when it's cast, you take damage, then you must IMMIDEATELY exit the Wall by the SHORTEST DISTANCE POSSIBLE to avoid damage. By which, they mean, you must step perpendicular to the wall. If you travel parallel to it, and consistantly with it (on it's line,) then you take damage for each Wall of Fire square.

Sorry for the math terms, there. :)
Dracoulis The Phyrexian
11-29-04, 06:03 AM Ruleswise, the caster level listed on most magic items are pretty irrelevant. That's just what they'd be if you found them. Normally, you only need to meet the prerequisites, regardless of the listed caster level. As such, some items have no necessary caster level.

However, seeing as your DM seems to be doing a houserule, there's different issues to look at, really.

Does the caster level have to be triple the bonus provided (an item providing +2 to something need a caster of level 6), or triple the listed caster level? If it's the latter, that's completely stupid. The caster levels for several items are already artificially inflated; why make it even worse? However, this could be a tolerable option in a very low magic-item game. I doubt that's the case, though.

If it's the first, oddly enough, it does happen to have some precedence. Namely, to put enhancement bonuses on weapons and armors, one needs a caster level of triple the desired bonus. The Ring of Protection, Amulet of Might Fists and Amulet of Natural Armor all also have similar restrictions (as do other items). It wouldn't be completely unreasonable to have similar rules elsewhere, as well.

You probably should point out that all bonuses aren't exactly equal, though. For example, if that's an absolute rule, skill boosting items become very hard to craft with any tolerable results. Odds are, he'll probably come up with some standard. If I was doing this, I'd probably say that 2.5x the bonus for caster level should be fine for ability bonuses, and equal to the level should be fine for skill bonuses. Thus, an item giving +2 Con would need a caster level of 5, and a +10 to a skill would need a caster level of 10. Bonuses to AC and Saves would be 3x caster level as listed.

This wouldn't be too unreasonable, because at the times you'd be constrained by this, odds are you don't have the GP or EXP to blow on a higher version of the item. Thus, you really aren't constrained.
Xarian
11-29-04, 02:26 PM I think you misunderstand.

I believe the DM was saying that he was changing the required CL to 3x the bonus for items that grant stat bonuses - for an example, a headband of intellect +6 would require CL 18 (6x3 = 18) rather than CL 8.

It seems rather innocuous to me, but honestly, I think that if a level 8 wizard actually has the XP saved up to make something like that then more power to him.
Duvanok
11-29-04, 02:33 PM I think you need to be a bit more specific as to what exactly you are trying to create. . .

Still, I think you are being screwed. Wonderous items with level restrictions are listed under the description of the item e.g: the cloak of resistance. Those with just a caster level and spell listed as a prerequisite would therefore not be restricted by your caster level. Gloves of dex +2 or gloves of Dex +6, it doesn't matter as long as you meet the CL listed under the item and got the coin, time and XP to burn.

Your DMs ruling on the Wall of Fire spell however was not so bad, IMO. To quote the spell description: ". . . the wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area."

So the "monster" would therefore not take additional damage by moving out of the area because it had already taken damage that round. The sticky part however, is that the monster moved within the line of fire. A more fair DM "might" have given the monster at least one more "passing through the wall" damage, but I don't think it was terribly unfair not to. If one were to just stand in a wall of fire one would probably take damage just once a round, not twice. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to assume that moving within the fire is the same as passing through it, to me it would be more akin to just standing in it.

On the plus side, what applies to the monsters also applies to the players. Just remember this scenario next time your DM throws Wall of Fire at you.
TommyBlack
11-29-04, 06:54 PM Gloves of dex +2 or gloves of Dex +6, it doesn't matter as long as you meet the CL listed under the item and got the coin, time and XP to burn.

Actually, (according to the errata) the CL listed under the item is not a requirement, it's just the usual caster level for a found item of that sort (which you'd need to know for certain things that can affect the item). When creating the item, that CL means nothing. The only caster level requirement is one specifically stated in the description, for instance under bracers of armor.

That said, it seems reasonable that those sorts of items would have caster level restrictions, since similar items (such as bracers of armor) have them.
Thornoch
11-29-04, 08:42 PM Thank you all for your responses, except for one response about the Wall of Fire.

To clear things up, the DM ruled that I would have to be 12th level to create +4 headband of intellect.

I guess it's been a while since I read up on CL for enchantments and enhancements because I seem to remember something about weapons requiring the caster to be twice the level, and defensive items requiring three times the enhancement level.

No, this was not a house rule, more of a rule on the fly that the DM researchede and imposed after I had ALREADY created the item. The DM, I guess, needed a reason to prevent me from accomplishing something. Oh well.

I am going to point out to my DM next time we game that many spells require a 'to hit,' but fireball and magic missile don't say anything about that, so it must be implied that they too have a too hit.

[please don't respond to that, I know they don't have a too hit. At least until the DM gets tired of them.]
Duvanok
11-30-04, 01:50 PM Actually, (according to the errata) the CL listed under the item is not a requirement, it's just the usual caster level for a found item of that sort (which you'd need to know for certain things that can affect the item). When creating the item, that CL means nothing. The only caster level requirement is one specifically stated in the description, for instance under bracers of armor.

That said, it seems reasonable that those sorts of items would have caster level restrictions, since similar items (such as bracers of armor) have them.

Where can I find the errata?

Also, wouldn't it also be "reasonable" to assume that if they bothered to list the CL restrictions on things like bracers of armor and cloaks of resistance that they would also list them for every item that had CL restrictions?
TommyBlack
11-30-04, 02:10 PM I wasn't saying that it's reasonable to assume that it's an official rule... I'm saying that it's a reasonable ruling on the part of the DM.

You can find the errata on the wizards site. For this, however, you would need access to a computer. I cannot help you there.
Duvanok
11-30-04, 08:04 PM Thanks, and don't worry, I know I guy with a computer. . .

TommyBlack, your post has really got me thinking. I think I will start another thread in the Rules Counseling section and get some more imput on this.
Thanks.
SALDAR
12-01-04, 07:31 AM The caster level has to be 3 x enhancement bonus only for crafting magical armor and weapons. It does not apply to crafting wondrous items or other magic items, you must simply meet the caster level requirement listed for the specific item. This is explained in the 3.5 DMG in the Crafting Magic Items section, pg 282 – 288.

I believe the difference is in the fact that the weapons and armors themselves are enhanced, a sword +3 requires a caster level of 9. Wondrous items, on the other hand, enhance some aspect of the character wearing it, such as a Headband of Intellect, which enhances the wearers intelligence score.

In the former case the sword is enhanced. In the latter case the headband is not enhanced, but the wearer’s Int is while the item is worn.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thornoch 11-29-04, 02:39 AM	I am new to the boards, so if anyone could answer this question or point me to where I can get the answer I would appreciate it. I am a ninth level caster with craft wondrous item feat. The caster level for the ability increase items are all 8th, my DM recently ruled that the Caster level must be triple the bonus. What say you? Also... I cast Wall of Fire on a monster. He took the damage when the spell came into effect. On his turn, he moved along the line of fire and then out. Since he started out in the fire, does this mean he does not take the 'passing through' damage? Even though he started out in a square where the fire was burning, should he not have taken damage when he passed through the other burning squares? Thanks
CCShinoby 11-29-04, 04:42 AM	Well caster level = just = caster level 9th level is 9th level caster level but if your DM made it a rule (A STUPID ONE) then its his rule .. he is the dm after all.. but if he states it is a normal rule ask him to show it too you cause I don't think its correct.. :S
ShadowDragon8685 11-29-04, 04:53 AM	If he made that house rule, tell him that he's being a dick and unfairly screwing you, because you woulden't be able to create CL 7 items until the Epic levels. Caster level is just that - the number of levels you have in the class you're using to create the item. And yes, the monster should have taken Passing Through damage - for every Fire Wall square he passed through. If you're caught in the Wall of Fire zone when it's cast, you take damage, then you must IMMIDEATELY exit the Wall by the SHORTEST DISTANCE POSSIBLE to avoid damage. By which, they mean, you must step perpendicular to the wall. If you travel parallel to it, and consistantly with it (on it's line,) then you take damage for each Wall of Fire square. Sorry for the math terms, there. :)
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 11-29-04, 06:03 AM	Ruleswise, the caster level listed on most magic items are pretty irrelevant. That's just what they'd be if you found them. Normally, you only need to meet the prerequisites, regardless of the listed caster level. As such, some items have no necessary caster level. However, seeing as your DM seems to be doing a houserule, there's different issues to look at, really. Does the caster level have to be triple the bonus provided (an item providing +2 to something need a caster of level 6), or triple the listed caster level? If it's the latter, that's completely stupid. The caster levels for several items are already artificially inflated; why make it even worse? However, this could be a tolerable option in a very low magic-item game. I doubt that's the case, though. If it's the first, oddly enough, it does happen to have some precedence. Namely, to put enhancement bonuses on weapons and armors, one needs a caster level of triple the desired bonus. The Ring of Protection, Amulet of Might Fists and Amulet of Natural Armor all also have similar restrictions (as do other items). It wouldn't be completely unreasonable to have similar rules elsewhere, as well. You probably should point out that all bonuses aren't exactly equal, though. For example, if that's an absolute rule, skill boosting items become very hard to craft with any tolerable results. Odds are, he'll probably come up with some standard. If I was doing this, I'd probably say that 2.5x the bonus for caster level should be fine for ability bonuses, and equal to the level should be fine for skill bonuses. Thus, an item giving +2 Con would need a caster level of 5, and a +10 to a skill would need a caster level of 10. Bonuses to AC and Saves would be 3x caster level as listed. This wouldn't be too unreasonable, because at the times you'd be constrained by this, odds are you don't have the GP or EXP to blow on a higher version of the item. Thus, you really aren't constrained.
Xarian 11-29-04, 02:26 PM	I think you misunderstand. I believe the DM was saying that he was changing the required CL to 3x the bonus for items that grant stat bonuses - for an example, a headband of intellect +6 would require CL 18 (6x3 = 18) rather than CL 8. It seems rather innocuous to me, but honestly, I think that if a level 8 wizard actually has the XP saved up to make something like that then more power to him.
Duvanok 11-29-04, 02:33 PM	I think you need to be a bit more specific as to what exactly you are trying to create. . . Still, I think you are being screwed. Wonderous items with level restrictions are listed under the description of the item e.g: the cloak of resistance. Those with just a caster level and spell listed as a prerequisite would therefore not be restricted by your caster level. Gloves of dex +2 or gloves of Dex +6, it doesn't matter as long as you meet the CL listed under the item and got the coin, time and XP to burn. Your DMs ruling on the Wall of Fire spell however was not so bad, IMO. To quote the spell description: ". . . the wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area." So the "monster" would therefore not take additional damage by moving out of the area because it had already taken damage that round. The sticky part however, is that the monster moved within the line of fire. A more fair DM "might" have given the monster at least one more "passing through the wall" damage, but I don't think it was terribly unfair not to. If one were to just stand in a wall of fire one would probably take damage just once a round, not twice. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to assume that moving within the fire is the same as passing through it, to me it would be more akin to just standing in it. On the plus side, what applies to the monsters also applies to the players. Just remember this scenario next time your DM throws Wall of Fire at you.
TommyBlack 11-29-04, 06:54 PM	Gloves of dex +2 or gloves of Dex +6, it doesn't matter as long as you meet the CL listed under the item and got the coin, time and XP to burn. Actually, (according to the errata) the CL listed under the item is not a requirement, it's just the usual caster level for a found item of that sort (which you'd need to know for certain things that can affect the item). When creating the item, that CL means nothing. The only caster level requirement is one specifically stated in the description, for instance under bracers of armor. That said, it seems reasonable that those sorts of items would have caster level restrictions, since similar items (such as bracers of armor) have them.
Thornoch 11-29-04, 08:42 PM	Thank you all for your responses, except for one response about the Wall of Fire. To clear things up, the DM ruled that I would have to be 12th level to create +4 headband of intellect. I guess it's been a while since I read up on CL for enchantments and enhancements because I seem to remember something about weapons requiring the caster to be twice the level, and defensive items requiring three times the enhancement level. No, this was not a house rule, more of a rule on the fly that the DM researchede and imposed after I had ALREADY created the item. The DM, I guess, needed a reason to prevent me from accomplishing something. Oh well. I am going to point out to my DM next time we game that many spells require a 'to hit,' but fireball and magic missile don't say anything about that, so it must be implied that they too have a too hit. [please don't respond to that, I know they don't have a too hit. At least until the DM gets tired of them.]
Duvanok 11-30-04, 01:50 PM	Actually, (according to the errata) the CL listed under the item is not a requirement, it's just the usual caster level for a found item of that sort (which you'd need to know for certain things that can affect the item). When creating the item, that CL means nothing. The only caster level requirement is one specifically stated in the description, for instance under bracers of armor. That said, it seems reasonable that those sorts of items would have caster level restrictions, since similar items (such as bracers of armor) have them. Where can I find the errata? Also, wouldn't it also be "reasonable" to assume that if they bothered to list the CL restrictions on things like bracers of armor and cloaks of resistance that they would also list them for every item that had CL restrictions?
TommyBlack 11-30-04, 02:10 PM	I wasn't saying that it's reasonable to assume that it's an official rule... I'm saying that it's a reasonable ruling on the part of the DM. You can find the errata on the wizards site. For this, however, you would need access to a computer. I cannot help you there.
Duvanok 11-30-04, 08:04 PM	Thanks, and don't worry, I know I guy with a computer. . . TommyBlack, your post has really got me thinking. I think I will start another thread in the Rules Counseling section and get some more imput on this. Thanks.
SALDAR 12-01-04, 07:31 AM	The caster level has to be 3 x enhancement bonus only for crafting magical armor and weapons. It does not apply to crafting wondrous items or other magic items, you must simply meet the caster level requirement listed for the specific item. This is explained in the 3.5 DMG in the Crafting Magic Items section, pg 282 – 288. I believe the difference is in the fact that the weapons and armors themselves are enhanced, a sword +3 requires a caster level of 9. Wondrous items, on the other hand, enhance some aspect of the character wearing it, such as a Headband of Intellect, which enhances the wearers intelligence score. In the former case the sword is enhanced. In the latter case the headband is not enhanced, but the wearer’s Int is while the item is worn.