Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Larky2k 06-26-07, 07:20 PM	Im in a D&D group which is going quite well ish and im asking you is it wrong for a PC to come up with someing that well make him very very rich in the game and it does not break the campign at all this is what is happeing; Our DM has come up with a vibrate and entertaing world with many towns well i say many it is minuss 1 due to a shiny red button and a flamming balista, our rag tag group has to walk every were as we keep killing our mounts off well we tend to forget them and feed them very strong alcholic drinks to see if they move any faster. But my chracter had a inspirational momment while sitting down having a cup of tea he has come up with or going to come up with a a way to harnis steam power and make Trains and start his own rail company and will be building a network of track all over the land am i wrong for doing this or am i going a bit far. comments will be nice and don't point out my spelling mistakes and grammer and whatnots as i dislexic and i cnat be bothered to read it to cheack.
Morwen 06-26-07, 07:32 PM	I wonder how you're going to be able to run a company and build railway tracks all over the countryside if you're not even able to remember feeding your horse..
Larky2k 06-26-07, 07:35 PM	its the feeding of drinks, we didnt forget to feed them we forgot we had them and left them out side a ruined town after we comandered an airship which then the dm took from us
Xenocide 06-26-07, 07:53 PM	If you can afford the rail and if you can hire people to make them and if they know how to build the steam engines and if you have the money to do all these things then it might work. Though if feeding your mounts depressants is a method your characters use to try to speed them up I think they'll have trouble on an enterprise of this scale. I just had an image of Ralph Wiggum trying to build a railroad company and mentioning to potential investors, "The clerics said I'd have less nosebleeds if I kept my finger out of there."
mearrin69 06-26-07, 08:31 PM	So, over a cup of tea, your character (with no outside knowledge...i.e. from our world) has figured out how to harness the power of steam and instantly was able to extrapolate that out into a continent-spanning system for transportation (again, with no outside knowledge)? Impressive. Not very believable, but impressive. BTW, I wasn't aware that dyslexia affected grammar and punctuation. I'll have to learn more about it. So many people I've met on the internet say they have it when it seems they're just lazy or 'can't be bothered' to read what they write (even though they expect others to do so).
dknight100 06-26-07, 08:34 PM	Yep, your looking at over int 20 to spontaneously come up with this. Otherwise its called metagaming. which is, you know, frowned upon.
Malcaor 06-26-07, 08:41 PM	good luck finding enough money to actually build this thing anyway.
Rykler 06-26-07, 08:44 PM	Maybe it would be better if your character thought that harnessing tireless beasts of somesort, like the nightmare, and taming them and creating roads that these creatures follow. Then attach cart after cart after cart to one another and it would be much much better and believeable then creating a steam engine and a train. Its going to cost you a hell of a lot of money, and to capture nightmares or get enough wodurous figurines for this to work is going to take a lot of money or planning. Good luck with it.
Prator_the_Legendary 06-26-07, 08:44 PM	The short answer is, you're loony. The long answer is that since in the DnD world, absolutely no precedent for steam power exists. You'd be pulling an entirely new type of technology out of nowhere. And THEN you'd have to innovate your own technology to make your steam generator function alongside a motor. And THEN you'd have to design all the clockwork that makes your basic steam-engine function. And what do you propose to burn to run your engine? I think DnD is before coal or oil, too. So, yeah, you'd also have to be inspired to devise the use of charcoal as a fuel. And after that you'd have to invent a means of mass-producing rails that are all exactly the same size and length for track. You'd also have to invent a means of mass production. You'd also have to invent interchangeable parts. You'd also have to figure out how to get those rails through forests, mountains, and anything else that's not flatland. You'd also have to get people to actually believe that all of this stuff can be built. And once you've done all that, you'll have to compete with the wizards who had the brilliant idea of selling mass-teleportation services.
Larky2k 06-26-07, 08:46 PM	well what ever the PC does in game will be metagaming you can't not do it. All im saying is that he was sitting down having a cup of tea as you do while there my charcter is watching the kettal with steam coming out were apon he starts pondering so he does some experiments of some sort hes not going to build one straight away it will take time he will make a crude one to see if it works then expand the idea with models till he think has got it then build prototypes.
Rykler 06-26-07, 08:52 PM	If i was the DM, i would have you draw me exactly what your character was going to create, and show me EXACTLY how it was going to work and exactly how every little component worked. I would then send you outside with the materials you said you needed, have you create a real life model without any help from a computer or such. If the model suceeded, then i would let you do that in the game. If not, then no. So my question is this: Can you build a model steam engine train without any help right now if i provided you the materials?
Larky2k 06-26-07, 08:52 PM	coal and oil exsist in D&D read arms and equiment there in there and complete adventurer i think as well and what Prator_the_Legendary just sayed dude read up on how a steam train works as there is no motor in it and teleport spells cost loads of gold when what i be doing won't and im planning it out so it does not look like metagaming.
mearrin69 06-26-07, 08:57 PM	It's going to be metagaming, sorry. Nothing much you can do about that and no need to convince us...but if you can convince your DM then go right ahead and play D&D Railroad Tycoon Edition if that's what you want. Fun! So, your condition doesn't even let you use commas or periods? What a bummer. M
Prator_the_Legendary 06-26-07, 09:00 PM	I'm looking at the A&E Guide now, and I don't see 'em in there... can you give me a page reference? As for the absence of motors... I'll give, I don't know much about steam-powered vehicles. But still, as far as I can see, all my other objections still apply. And I've never really understood why high-level spells cost so much even when they don't have any expensive components. Still, even when the cost of teleportation is taken into account, it's STILL cheaper than it would be to build a railroad from literally nothing. Faster, too. Actually, if you're carrying valuable enough stuff, the benefits you'd reap from instantaneous transportation of goods anywhere would far outweigh the expense of travel. And just because you're planning it out so it doesn't LOOK like metagaming does not mean that it isn't still metagaming.
Candin 06-26-07, 09:11 PM	It's quite a leap for your character, and indeed anybody, to make a leap from a steaming kettle to a continental railroad enterprise. I have a fan blowing in the corner of my room right now. What are the odds that by looking at it for three seconds and running an experiment or two on the nature of rotating blades that I'll be able to design a prototype airplane and expand on the idea to create an airplane enterprise? And this is with airplanes actually existing in my world. You're character doesn't know what the (expletive) a train is.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 06-26-07, 09:45 PM	If i was the DM, i would have you draw me exactly what your character was going to create, and show me EXACTLY how it was going to work and exactly how every little component worked. I would then send you outside with the materials you said you needed, have you create a real life model without any help from a computer or such. If the model suceeded, then i would let you do that in the game. If not, then no. So my question is this: Can you build a model steam engine train without any help right now if i provided you the materials? This really isn't fair. Unless of course you expect your players to be able to show you how to cast a magic spells in real life as well. Or they have to actually show you how to make magic items before they can take the crafting feats. If I'm going to play a fighter in your campaign do have to be able to beat you in real life with a sword? I don't they OPs int is as high as his characters, and it isn't like he is trying to invent advanced technology, just a steam engine. Ebberron has something similar, and I don't see why this is such a big deal. If I was your DM I'd run with it. Firstly you'd need to recruit workers to build your railway line, an adventure right there. Then you'd have to get the cash to buy all the iron, and/or find enough iron for the rails. Look more adventure. And finally I could have your railway attacked by bandits, both before and after it was completed. I'm dyslexic as well. And yaa it can get annoying when you can't say what you mean, then have an arrogant tard tell you your stupid because you don't use proper English. But we are using the printed media, and if people can't understand you, then the message is lost.
Holy_Beholder 06-26-07, 11:04 PM	It would make more sense if you come up with something a bit more primitive first, like a ditch system, with a really round ditch, rounded bottom wagons with oiled metal coatings powered by decanters of endless water on geyser on the back. That wouldn't be metagaming, since all your character has to do is come up with the ditch plan. As a DM, I would allow that. From there, I can see a tunnel system with round wagons, since the characters would come up with that. But steam power coming out of nowhere, with a train is stretching it.
arjomanes 06-27-07, 01:13 AM	Sometimes I really feel sorry for some of the DMs out there.
Ack 06-27-07, 01:25 AM	Note that oil exists. You can buy it by the flask from the equipment guide. Also, I would imagine that coal is mined, for the simple fact that it is a useful combustible material (and not every single peasant, or even town, in the colder regions has convenient magic to keep warm). In addition, the first rail tracks were derived in mining endeavours (or so I understand) when people noticed that the mining carts ran better when the ruts were established well, and then made their own guides to make it even easier. All that is established. However, it is a HUGE leap from noticing that "steam expands and makes things move" to "I shall call it - the United Pacific!" First, you would need to contract an armourer (being about the only type of person who is willing or able to work with large amounts of metal) exclusively (so that he doesn't decide that making that elaborate set of full plate for Lord Thingummy is more important) to build you a boiler. More to the point, you'd have to convince him to build it the way you wanted it. Essentially, even after you get the design right (and who's to say you have? Working pressure gauges were not invented until centuries after steam engines were established technology) you have to teach your armourer how to work metal in an entirely new way - airtight, thick and strong. And when you test your prototype and forget to shut off the heat, and the boiler explodes, do you really think you'll be able to convince him to keep working on it? And, here's the bottom line. Where is the money for all this coming from?
CCS 06-27-07, 01:49 AM	No I don't think it's wrong at all to try & develop a fantasy rail system. It'll likely take awhile to acomplish(especially if your character doesn't possess skills such as engineering, alchemy/chemistry etc...). Even then it might not work. Or it might prove impractical in some way.(BTW, the real life birth of the 1st steam engine/trains pretty well fell into both catagories. At first anyways. Go look it up.) So don't expect instant success. But try it. Personally I've always liked it when my PCs have actual goals aside from whatever I've written.
OleOneEye 06-27-07, 03:08 AM	Archeologists have discovered a steam engine that was made by the ancient Greeks. It was a small toy car. The design has been replicated and it works. This is not necessarily outside the purview of a pre-industrial society. It pretty much all depends on whether the DM will allow you to run with your idea. Personally, I think it could make for a pretty good campaign. You need to recruit engineers to design the steam engine, raw materials for production of the trains and tracks, fight with local lords to gain right of way to place the rails, bargain with the king on how taxation will work, pacify wilderness that rails run through, promote the ease of travel to the populace, etc, etc. Bear in mind, this is more along the lines of something that will dominate the gaming sessions rather than something to make a quick buck.
MagickHobo 06-27-07, 03:37 AM	Or you know, you could have heroic fantasy adventures and stuff. If I was your DM I'd ask you if that's what you really wanted to do, and then say "over the course of the next few decades your wizard build is awesome rail-road empire." And then turn to the rest of the group and say, "OK, so you guys hear a rumor about a DUNGEON that may have a DRAGON or two." Since that's what we all gathered to play. And I'll be darned if my +$200 on DnD books is going to be wasted trying to simulate what's basically now a $10 shovel-ware franchise. So yes, I would say that it's a bad idea. But if you think your group would be cool with it, then run it by them and have fun. But don't be surprised if they veto that idea in favor of... HEROIC FANTASY ADVENTURES.
Ayra 06-27-07, 04:10 AM	Why not just keep it simple and within the setting? If your character is devoted to finding a better way of traveling, he could take spells that aid in traveling. In fact, he could make it a mission to create portals in every major town, using it as an investment. I'm sure that not every town has a portal, in fact most probably won't even if they are huge. You could start your own portal service. You first calculate the risk, time and the approximate cost for say, a merchant, to travel from point A to point B. The more valued the amount of wares hes transporting, the more it will cost him to use your gate (or to make it doable without an NPC with appraise, you could just weigh the load he's carrying). In the end, you'll have an average price list based on how much people are taking with them through your gates. Gates can be constant 2-way gates. It'll cost a bit, but if you take crafting feats (which you should, if you really want this) you can do it within no time. If you don't price your gate-traveling too high and it's favorable for merchants to use your gate instead of traveling by foot, you'll have your money back soon enough to build even more gates. Then once you've built all your gates, profit! Then you can try to research into ways of making mass teleportation cheaper (by adding limitations, so that it can basically only be used by, for instance, certain alignments, limited weight, lower levels, etc.) Eventually once you've finished your gate-empire, you need to find a way to connect the smaller towns with a device that is more portable than a gate is. By then I'm sure you know enough to build something along the lines of a train. (Think of a magical device that is supplied by magic, rather than steam, and travels underground? It could even be a tamed monster making use of an underground tunneling system.) Air ships are an option, or be more original. Instead of putting the rails on the ground, you make something like huge posts, connected by ropes, that your traveling device hangs from. Eventually once you reach epic levels you probably have a very good knowledge of transportation. Get knowledge (architecture) (or whatever your DM thinks is needed) and build a flying city. Flying cities own. Make sure a lot of clerics of Fharlanghn join your city, to make it known as the best traveling city ever made. I hope you're a wizard though.
Larky2k 06-27-07, 04:47 AM	My Chracter is a dwarf Ranger and i have those skills my alchamy is no exsistant. im going to have hired hands to help run it when im off adventuring im only doing to get from a to b quicker with out spending loads of gp on a spell and if its frowned apon that my chracgter cant think on how to harness the power of steam then how did they do it in real life as that what im trying to simulate in the campagn
dknight100 06-27-07, 06:13 AM	Well, the poster who mentioned that steam power was to an extent, known in ancient times - though it was in Roman Egypt, not quite ancient greek. In this time it was an oddity. For an example of how big a jump it was from steam expands and pushes things, into steam engine: Roman Egypt, ~1st Century AD, an apparently steam powered toy is described in a manuscript 17th Century AD: scientists are getting the hang of this steam power thing, but are struggling to financially get anywhere with them - the cannot yet beat the horse and cart for cost or efficiency. 18th Century AD: First functional self propelled steam vehicle is created. its not very good though. Generally used to go somewhere and power something, not purely to go somewhere. 19th Century AD: first practical steamboat created (~1802), then in 1809 the first railway steam engine is created. Its not just a matter of hey look steam. hey, i made a steam powered toy. hey look, i made a steam powered engine (which would also require inventing an engine). And it took them 1800 years from that first steam toy to beat the horse and cart - and you dont just have horse and carts to beat. you have supernatural, though potentially tameable monsters that people know about (such as griffins) not to mention as someone already has: instantaneous transport. Yes, we know, ebberon has trains, they're magical trains, and really, teleportation still knocks the socks off a train. ::EDIT:: Not to mention precise mass production to invent while your at it. A train wont react pleasantly to a damaged rail, and a train network would require hundreds of miles of rail. And then you need people to hammer it down for you, lined up and supported effectively.
Radijs 06-27-07, 06:31 AM	What I would think would be a probable train of thought is someone looking at a kettle, maybe putting their action in front of the fast moving steam and thinking something like Action = !Action or for every action there is an equal opposite reaction. And then perhaps theorize and build something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aeolipile_illustration.JPG Once its built however you will quickly realize that this contraption doesn't have nearly enough power to do anything useful except spin itself. Attach something like an endless belt to make it drive a wheel it already stalls. Now the first leap of true genius comes when you think of the piston and the basic principle of a beam engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_engine). But the person who 'invented' the piston or the idea of the piston did it as a part of a perssure cooker which he built to soften bones. This new beam engine is a leap forward because its efficient enough to actually do something! In the real world they where used mainly to pump water out of mine shafts. And from there on you're actually stuck again. Because before you can start building pistons that can fit seamlessly you need an effective standardization. All in all its going to take a long time for someone to do all this. Even a genius is going to take a while. In the real world the invention of the piston predated the first effective steam engines about 20-25 years. So its plausible that a highly intelligent character can get the concept of steam power. But to put this to a working train in the time it takes to drink a cup of tea. not at all.
Drag0nUL 06-27-07, 07:02 AM	I don't think the piston engine would be the best solution here (the piston mechanism is hard to invent out of the blue, as the previous poster said). A more plausible solution would be the steam turbine. They are much simpler (as a principle) and more reliable than piston engine. Of course I'm not referring to modern steam turbines, but here is a quite simple way that a character with no prior engineering knowledge can 'invent a simple steam turbine: 1. He notices that high pressure steam has the power to push things (this can be done as simply as looking at a boiling tea pot) 2. He looks at a water mill, and sees how the water pushes the paddles and makes the wheel spin. 3. Putting 1 and 2 together, he builds a similar wheel, but in which the paddles are pushed by steam instead of water. Of course there are many other technical difficulties, like developing a casing that allows the recovery of the steam, condensing it and bringing the water back tot he boiler etc., but the principle is not hard to develop at all.
lantan_gnome 06-27-07, 07:25 AM	when i dm one simple rule fixes all: real world physics do not equel D&D physics. they are very similar but for a few exceptions like saltpeter+coal+sulfer do not equal bang, and steam power isnt strong enough. etc etc (also makes falling being not so lethal and being able to hold your breath for an ungodly amount of time more logic) so in my opinoin all in all if your hart is set on making mas transport availeble for the durt farming masses go with magic because it makes more sence in a fantasy game. though it wil make it ebberon-isch wont it ? also i think it wil be a while before you can make a profit if at all. anyways good luck to ya.
Radijs 06-27-07, 07:45 AM	But there is still a long way to go from proof of concept to a profitable machine.
Varia 06-27-07, 08:15 AM	A note- Railways did not require mass production as youre using the term, it merely required bulk production. Mass production is the mass production of a products made up of many parts with fine tolerances- cars being the classic example. Rails are a single simple cast item, with no moving parts or smaller components. Its much much simpler, especially in a world with magic. A couple of earth and fire elementals as part of your steel-worker crew and youre golden.
Radijs 06-27-07, 08:20 AM	Rails can indeed be fabricated like that. But accurately making all the nuts, bolts and rivets that go everywhere is a whole diffrent story. Such things need to be millimeter accurate. And mass-producing something like that isn't easy.
_V_ 06-27-07, 08:35 AM	And how do the kittens feature in your plans? :D
Prator_the_Legendary 06-27-07, 09:32 AM	Maybe Demogorgon or Asmodeus or someone else like them agreed to finance the railroad if he sacrificed enough kittens. That would solve the funding problem, at least... Alright, I've read over all the stuff that's been written in here so far, and my diagnosis is the same: What your character wants to do COULD be done. However, it's astronomically unlikely that your character would actually be able to do it, for a wide variety of reasons.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-27-07, 10:07 AM	i dislexic and i cnat be bothered to read it to cheack. If you can't be bothered to make it readable then why should we be bothered to read it?
Rykler 06-27-07, 10:40 AM	This really isn't fair. Unless of course you expect your players to be able to show you how to cast a magic spells in real life as well. Or they have to actually show you how to make magic items before they can take the crafting feats. If I'm going to play a fighter in your campaign do have to be able to beat you in real life with a sword? I don't they OPs int is as high as his characters, and it isn't like he is trying to invent advanced technology, just a steam engine. Ebberron has something similar, and I don't see why this is such a big deal. If I was your DM I'd run with it. Firstly you'd need to recruit workers to build your railway line, an adventure right there. Then you'd have to get the cash to buy all the iron, and/or find enough iron for the rails. Look more adventure. And finally I could have your railway attacked by bandits, both before and after it was completed. I'm dyslexic as well. And yaa it can get annoying when you can't say what you mean, then have an arrogant tard tell you your stupid because you don't use proper English. But we are using the printed media, and if people can't understand you, then the message is lost. Wow, you really don't get it. This kid is trying to invent something that has never ever been seen before, never ever been heard of before and doesn't know how it even works (his character in the game). Do you know how long it took to invent that sort of invention. On top of that, more modern technology was needed. About the bit on creating a magical item, Its in the rulebook isn't it? and of course the rules for fighters are in the rulebook too... If you told me your character was going to jump off a tower 200ft tall and start spinning with a sword really really fast and start to fly like a helicopter, I would ask you to somehow prove to me that would work. That is what i would be doing with the steam engine. So, you see, there is logic to my statement.
UndeadViking 06-27-07, 11:04 AM	*Sigh*, not to be a jerk here, but do you understand why this kind of thing irritates DMs? It's D&D, which means for most worlds that science is at the medieval level of technology. And that's the way your DM (and most D&D Dms and players) want it to stay. Sword and sorcery , not trains planes and automobiles. What if Lord of the Rings or The Sword of Shannara or any other classic fantasy setting had trains in it? In many people's eyes, that would change what they considered a totally cool fantasy setting into a ridiculously silly one that they have no interest in. And yes, I realize there are some folks who like this kind of thing in their D&D game, and that's fine, if that's what they ALL like, the DM included. By the way, what's next on your agenda: guns, cannons, steamboats, gliders, concrete, electricity? Do you see why this is irritating for a lot of DMs? A lot of players wouldn't like it either. Also, you, as a real-world person living in the modern age, have been exposed to all kinds of technology and thus you take for granted how "easy" it must have been to 1) just think of the idea for steam power in the first place, and 2) how to actually create a working train and build it and the tracks. It's anything but easy, and it took centuries for people to figure it out in the real world. I agree with the poster who suggested that your character should have a very high intelligence just to be allowed a chance to even think of the idea. Even then, I would only give your character a small chance to even realize that steam could be used to create a mechanical device for transportation. And then you'd be required to experiment and build prototypes. The poster who said you would have to explain to the DM how it all works and then actually try to build a real one was trying to make a point, to show just how hard and tough it is to make something like that. By the way, if you didn't have access to a modern library, you wouldn't be able to find the info on how to build a train at all, so right there you're stuck - you as a modern person could not figure it out, so how would a medieval character figure it out? Very, very, very unlikely. Even if your character did figure it out, he'd have to try and explain the concept to the NPCs he wants to have help build it. They might think he's nuts, and unless he's paying them very well or providing exact blueprints, they wouldn't waste their time on it. BTW, your character would also have to be a genius blacksmith with tons of skill ranks to fathom how to make train parts and provide blueprints. Or a genius alchemist, and even then, alchemy is a fictional "science" - there is no real field of alchemy, it was debunked way back in medieval times. It just works in D&D, which is a fantasy setting, and even then it's supposed to have limits. I once had a player that wanted to make all kinds of technological devices. Not only did I not like the idea, and said so, but the player ignored me and insisted on trying it anyway. I don't know how much time, both in and out of game, was wasted dealing with his silly explanations and demands. It really detracted from the game for me, as the DM, and for the other players, as well. It went on for so long and annoyed me so much, that in the end I told him to stop, no more inventions, period. End of story. Or he could get another DM or DM himself. He stopped. Sounds like your DM is annoyed by what you're doing, and since he or she is doing all the work creating adventures for a campaign that he enjoys running (and I'm assuming most of the other players enjoy playing in), and all you have to do is show up and play your character, maybe you should start thinking about how what you're doing might be detracting from his enjoyment of the game, and possibly the other players as well.
danielinthewolvesden 06-27-07, 03:41 PM	comments will be nice and don't point out my spelling mistakes and grammer and whatnots as i dislexic and i cnat be bothered to read it to cheack. My friend, you come here and ask for our help and advice yet you can not be bothered to make your request understandable? Think about it.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 04:34 PM	Firstly, the dsylexic thing - look to the right of the box you type in to make a post. There is a spell check button - it says ABC with a checkmark underneath. Click it before you post and it will fix a lot of it. Second, I would think an entire campaign could be had out of trying to build a railroad cross country. It would be epic. Build the machine and then get sponsers to give you money for workers and material, and lay down track. Of course, you'll need to scout out a trail first, so your group can do that, clearing the way and ridding the area of monsters. The loot you find can go towards the railroad. This is a sweet idea.
Ayra 06-27-07, 04:41 PM	To ease up the reply I made earlier, I'll say this: Your character lives in a magical world, where many things are driven by magic. Granted small towns don't have magic, but big towns do. They are protected by magic (check waterdeep with a huge layer around it to keep dragons out) and stuff like that. Rather than thinking about solving your problem technologically, you think about it in ways of magic. Small problems could be solved technologically (think about a guy wanting to automatically grind his coffee without the use of magic since he can't afford it), but making a whole railroad could simple be done by magic. So my conclusion is that your character won't even be able to think about making a train the way you think of it. If your character thinks about a vehicle, it's magic powered. Not steam powered. Probably not everyone agrees with me on this, but when your mind is clouded when everything is done with magic, it's hard to think of something without using magic. In fact, you only think of things like that when using magic is completely unavailable.
Varia 06-27-07, 05:26 PM	Rails can indeed be fabricated like that. But accurately making all the nuts, bolts and rivets that go everywhere is a whole diffrent story. Such things need to be millimeter accurate. And mass-producing something like that isn't easy. Couple more items then- Rivets are just metal pins that are inserted into a hole and then flattened on both ends by hammering so they wont come out of the hole. Theyre much simpler to make than rails. Most steam engines werent mass produced, they were hand-made in specifically equiped machine-shops. Most companies dedicated to their manufacture made around 30 locomotives a year.
Ack 06-27-07, 06:14 PM	To ease up the reply I made earlier, I'll say this: Your character lives in a magical world, where many things are driven by magic. Granted small towns don't have magic, but big towns do. They are protected by magic (check waterdeep with a huge layer around it to keep dragons out) and stuff like that. Rather than thinking about solving your problem technologically, you think about it in ways of magic. Small problems could be solved technologically (think about a guy wanting to automatically grind his coffee without the use of magic since he can't afford it), but making a whole railroad could simple be done by magic. So my conclusion is that your character won't even be able to think about making a train the way you think of it. If your character thinks about a vehicle, it's magic powered. Not steam powered. Probably not everyone agrees with me on this, but when your mind is clouded when everything is done with magic, it's hard to think of something without using magic. In fact, you only think of things like that when using magic is completely unavailable. Exactly. It's like trying to singlehandedly develop a solar-powered engine for your car when there's already a perfectly serviceable petrol engine in there. Pollution concerns aside, why bother? Now, it might be amusing to have "infernal combustion engines" with bound fire elementals heating boilers, but once you start using magic, you may as well go and buy a flying carpet (and just incidentally, there's a cute little story by Harry Turtledove that features flying carpets that fill in for trains...).
Ayra 06-27-07, 06:19 PM	Exactly. It's like trying to singlehandedly develop a solar-powered engine for your car when there's already a perfectly serviceable petrol engine in there. Pollution concerns aside, why bother? Now, it might be amusing to have "infernal combustion engines" with bound fire elementals heating boilers, but once you start using magic, you may as well go and buy a flying carpet (and just incidentally, there's a cute little story by Harry Turtledove that features flying carpets that fill in for trains...). That fire elemental thing reminds me of Howl's moving castle (http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/castle/). Although the fire thing in that movie is a whole lot stronger than a normal fire elemental.
dknight100 06-27-07, 11:13 PM	For all the posters about making the train. That would be the easy part. Wizard with wall of iron, wizard with fabricate. BAM! The hard part, the really hard part, is coming up with it. I mean, it took really smart people 18 centuries to create a train that was worth using compared to a horse and cart. The horse and cart are easily outstripped in dnd by magic, and simply other tamed animals.
Andorxor 06-28-07, 01:32 AM	That fire elemental thing reminds me of Howl's moving castle (http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/castle/). Although the fire thing in that movie is a whole lot stronger than a normal fire elemental. It was a star.A star should be stronger than a normal fire. For all the posters about making the train. That would be the easy part. Wizard with wall of iron, wizard with fabricate. BAM! How many ranks has this wizard in craft:trains?
Ayra 06-28-07, 03:55 AM	It was a star.A star should be stronger than a normal fire. Ahh, I missed that then! It's a cute little fire anyway ;) But the moving castle could somehow be a good alternate option to a train. Think of a moving headquarters for the players. It would definitely scare some people and trample some forests though :rolleyes:
dknight100 06-28-07, 06:43 AM	How many ranks has this wizard in craft:trains? ALL OF THEM. It just takes looking at a teapot and metagaming, remember?
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-28-07, 11:36 AM	It's like trying to singlehandedly develop a solar-powered engine for your car when there's already a perfectly serviceable petrol engine in there. Pollution concerns aside, why bother? Actually, given the pseudo-medieval tech level of D&D, it is more like trying to singlehandedly develop a solar-powered engine for your car when there's already a perfectly serviceable horse. A train is not a technology, it is an application of many different technologies, few of which would be contemporary to, or likely known by, your average PC. People do not just spontaneously choose to develop several entirely new technologies and apply them to a completely unknown and likely unfathomable manner, they build on existing knowledge, research and technologies. It may seem perfectly obvious to us in hindsight, but the PC in question just pulling the idea for a train and rail network out of his ass would be like a Neanderthal waking up one morning and saying "By gum I think I'm jolly well going to create a 6 litre V12 Ferrari Enzo today."
Pyro_Azer 06-28-07, 12:58 PM	Even IF you manage to create a steam engine Do you know how easy it would be for bandits to derail and destroy it? Also what abouttrees falling across the tracks? Or rusted rails? Or rotten ties? or small town taking metal from the rails for their own purposes? Or falling rocks? Ect. Could you build it? Yes. Could you do it without magic? Probably. Would it take a long time? Yes Would it take lots of money? Yes Would it be in desperate need of massive repair within a few weeks? Definately.
Ack 06-28-07, 01:18 PM	And that's not even taking into account the almost-certainty that there are entrenched interests that do not want this thing coming into being. Supernatural beings, for instance, that dislike cold iron. All these iron rails lacing across the landscape - it can't be good for them. And they might just have powerful and subtle friends...
OleOneEye 06-29-07, 01:32 AM	Wow, there are a lot of presumptions thrown around about how the DM of this guys game runs things. We know absolutely nothing about the game world - e.g. steam engines may very well be common just not yet applied to trains. Maybe the DM likes players coming up with their own goals and aspirations, no matter how far-fetched, and runs with them. I'll say one thing, I would much rather have a player want to single-handedly jump start the industrial revolution from scratch than just sit there and blandly respond to whatever situations I have crafted. Granted, this scenario is a terrible fit for most games, but we know nothing about whether it will fit the game that is being played. In short, ask your DM if it is something he is willing to run with Larky2K. Don't be surprised if he doesn't like it. As an aside, dknight100, I am well aware that the toy steam engine was in Egypt during Roman times, however I was under the impression that it was Greeks living in Egypt whom are credited with it. If wrong, please let me know.
dknight100 06-29-07, 02:07 AM	As an aside, dknight100, I am well aware that the toy steam engine was in Egypt during Roman times, however I was under the impression that it was Greeks living in Egypt whom are credited with it. If wrong, please let me know. I know it was mentioned in a manuscript, but i don't know what specific group it was credited to. As we've both mentioned, it was in Roman Egypt. I just thought you meant it was from an earlier period. Not that that matters much - i didn't mean it as any sort of counterpoint.
Radijs 06-29-07, 06:17 AM	I'll bet we could design a campaign around this.
Ack 06-29-07, 07:31 AM	The gentleman you are referring to was Hero of Alexandria. http://campus.udayton.edu/~hume/Steam/steam.htm
ewancummins 06-29-07, 09:08 AM	We need to know more about the world, I think. Are there already steam engines in use? Do mines use tracked mine carts? How available are coal, oil, peat, timber etc? What's the level of metallurgy? Does a concept of mass production exist? Can fairly tight metal seals and valves be manufactured in large quantities? Making a full system of rail transport isn't simple. It presuppposes multiple complex technologies. Then you need the capital to develop it. If a PC has very high[ like say, 20] ranks in Knowledge :Engineering and an INT of 20+ , then maybe he could do something like this- assuming the various pieces were already in place. Most people aren't geniuses on the level of Da Vinci or Einstein. The OP mentioned an airship. Was that a magical flying boat, or some kind of dirigible. Assuming it was a technological device, trying to replicate the airship several times over would be more reasonable than pulling trains out of thin air. A fleet of dirigibles might be easier to talk the DM into allowing. After all, you know something about airships. It's not as big a leap to say: ''Hey, let's make several of these and use them to form a transportation network!'' The DM can watch as you alter the world using something HE introduced. No metagaming there.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-29-07, 09:12 AM	Wow, there are a lot of presumptions thrown around about how the DM of this guys game runs things. Quite the opposite, in fact. We are responding based on what little we do know. To make assumptions about what might exist in the world is just wild supposition. We know absolutely nothing about the game world Correct, which is why without any further information we must go on the belief that this is a game fitting within the common D&D default setting parameters.
Pyro_Azer 06-29-07, 12:06 PM	If a PC has very high[ like say, 20] ranks in Knowledge :Engineering and an INT of 20+ , then maybe he could do something like this- assuming the various pieces were already in place. Most people aren't geniuses on the level of Da Vinci or Einstein. Alternativly if the PC saw a metal goem of some sort it could be a simple process thinking "hmm... What if one of those could run on steam?" Then thinking "What if i gave it wheels?" A bit more planning could result in a steam engine or similar device. (This would be a good time to talk to some engineers and artificers)
criticalstriker 06-29-07, 04:05 PM	To the OP, I don't see anything wrong with this. I would gladly accept this as a DM. Mind you, it wouldn't be easy. You would need iron, labor, the technical minds to make this whole thing happen. But it would be possible. Well, the poster who mentioned that steam power was to an extent, known in ancient times - though it was in Roman Egypt, not quite ancient greek. In this time it was an oddity. For an example of how big a jump it was from steam expands and pushes things, into steam engine: Roman Egypt, ~1st Century AD, an apparently steam powered toy is described in a manuscript 17th Century AD: scientists are getting the hang of this steam power thing, but are struggling to financially get anywhere with them - the cannot yet beat the horse and cart for cost or efficiency. 18th Century AD: First functional self propelled steam vehicle is created. its not very good though. Generally used to go somewhere and power something, not purely to go somewhere. 19th Century AD: first practical steamboat created (~1802), then in 1809 the first railway steam engine is created. Its not just a matter of hey look steam. hey, i made a steam powered toy. hey look, i made a steam powered engine (which would also require inventing an engine). And it took them 1800 years from that first steam toy to beat the horse and cart - and you dont just have horse and carts to beat. you have supernatural, though potentially tameable monsters that people know about (such as griffins) not to mention as someone already has: instantaneous transport. Yes, we know, ebberon has trains, they're magical trains, and really, teleportation still knocks the socks off a train. ::EDIT:: Not to mention precise mass production to invent while your at it. A train wont react pleasantly to a damaged rail, and a train network would require hundreds of miles of rail. And then you need people to hammer it down for you, lined up and supported effectively. I don't believe that they didn't manufacture steam engines because they didn't have the technology required. But rather, they didn't need it. Why spend the time, money, and effort building steam engines when you have slaves and such to do it?
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-29-07, 05:05 PM	Why spend the time, money, and effort building steam engines when you have slaves and such to do it? Why spend the time, money, and effort building steam engines when you have magic and such to do it?
Andorxor 06-29-07, 05:17 PM	Alternativly if the PC saw a metal goem of some sort it could be a simple process thinking "hmm... What if one of those could run on steam?" Then thinking "What if i gave it wheels?" A bit more planning could result in a steam engine or similar device. (This would be a good time to talk to some engineers and artificers) Why should he want to replace complettly fine magic with steam?
Pyro_Azer 06-29-07, 06:33 PM	Why should he want to replace complettly fine magic with steam? If he could not use magic. Edit: Cheaper too.
Radijs 06-29-07, 06:43 PM	Alternativly if the PC saw a metal goem of some sort it could be a simple process thinking "hmm... What if one of those could run on steam?" Then thinking "What if i gave it wheels?" A bit more planning could result in a steam engine or similar device. (This would be a good time to talk to some engineers and artificers) Nice idea but you're reasoning in the wrong direction. The OP here lives in a world where the concept of steam power doesn't yet exist. So when he looks at the golem the thought of letting it run on steam doesn't occurr to him because he lives in a world where the idea of steam power doesn't exist.
Ack 06-30-07, 12:52 AM	Note that it took literally centuries (and improvements in metallurgy and metalwork techniques) before the steam engine even equalled the horse and cart as a transportation mechanism. Cugnot's steam carriage, for instance, moved at a grand pace of 4 mph and had to stop every 20 minutes to build up a new head of steam. The steering was also abominable; the thing was known for running into obstacles, even ones that were not in its direct line of travel.
High Octane 06-30-07, 01:07 AM	To the OP: NO. BAD. Bad player. NO XP! You're adventurers. NOT inventors. You also cannot create gunpowder, plastic, thermonuclear weapons, television, velcro, the telephone....... ...know what? This type of thing gets you slapped and banned from games and are universally considered one of the most irritating things a DM has to contend with. That being METAGAMING. This is metagaming pure and simple. You had to go through several inventors working for years on the basis of OTHER inventors who spent their lives theorizing fruitless concepts that became the basis for the inventors who got lucky and brilliant enough to piece together the idea into a workable concept. You think Thomas Edison came up with the incandescent light and came up with everything to make it work over a cup of tea? NO!! The man first had the concept of electricity from OTHER scientists and inventors including Ben Franklin, then you think that he jumped from electricity to a working lightbulb in a freaking DAY, much less over 1 cup of tea? Try well over 10,000 failures before he had a working lightbulb! And that had to be severely tweaked on in any case before he took it to market! That was a LIGHTBULB! Not a working TRAIN! And dont try to say that due to his int of 18, or 20, or even 25 that he would come up with that! A 25 int being higher than any person in history probably just means that the concept would be 20 years in development instead of 50!
Pyro_Azer 06-30-07, 05:04 AM	Note that it took literally centuries (and improvements in metallurgy and metalwork techniques) before the steam engine even equalled the horse and cart as a transportation mechanism. Cugnot's steam carriage, for instance, moved at a grand pace of 4 mph and had to stop every 20 minutes to build up a new head of steam. The steering was also abominable; the thing was known for running into obstacles, even ones that were not in its direct line of travel. Why would steering matter when building a train?
Radijs 06-30-07, 08:38 AM	Well the track does bend at some point. A miscalculation here or there and you don't need bandits to derail the train.
Ack 06-30-07, 11:31 AM	Why would steering matter when building a train? That was just an example. Now, suppose you decided that the weight of the engine was sufficient to bring it to a stop when you cut off the steam (which was basically the case with the earlier steam vehicles) and so neglected to include brakes, or you put in brakes which worked quite well for carriages but simply didn't take into account the enormous inertia of a large steam engine ... and then there came an incident with a descending, turning section of track where the engine had to stop in a hurry, and couldn't ... Note that miscalculations along the line of "If we put that in, we won't be able to afford to complete it for another six months - do we really need it?" were extremely common before the 20th century, and even during it. Quite often, manufacturers believed their own hype. Take one of the most famous catastrophes in the last hundred years; because the laws regarding installing lifeboats were based on boats one-quarter the size of the Titanic, it went to sea carrying lifeboats that would only fit one-quarter of the passengers. And then there was the lack of an organised, practised evacuation drill. Result? Over a thousand people died, when a little forethought could have saved them.
Caelic 06-30-07, 11:49 AM	Essentially, the problem here is that for every idea, there's an underlying pyramid of thought. In the case of the steam engine, the (grossly simplified) pyramid of thought might look like this: TOP 1. I can make a railroad 2. I can build a locomotive, it can pull cars, the cars will travel over rails 3. I can use a piston-drive steam engine to drive a vehicle, I can craft a piston-drive steam engine large enough and powerful enough to pull many times its own weight, I can create cars and rails to standard sizes and measurements so that they will work together, I can create a reliable method of connecting a long chain of cars together that will sustain jolts and shocks and still be flexible enough to allow them to maneuver around curves, a large system of transportation will initially be hugely expensive, but in the long run will pay for itself 4. Engineering items to standard tolerances has advantages over hand-crafting each one, piston-drive steam engines have many uses, there is a need for a system of transportation more powerful than horses or wagons but affordable, I can create a type of wheel that will run on rails, I can create rails that will endure the heat and cold and elements, I know the metallurgy required to craft rails that will resist heat and cold and will not rust in short order, I know the construction techniques needed to craft a very large vehicle that will sustain the stresses of a powerful poston-drive steam engine, I can craft a vehicle out of metal, and so minimize the risk of the fires necessary to fuel a steam engine, I can fuel a steam engine with coal And so on, and so forth. You can trace the pyramid back as far as you'd care to (say, back to Judeo-Christian faiths imparting the notion that the universe operated according to a single system of orderly laws, which laid the groundwork for scientific inquiry, which made it possible to systematically observe and test the properties of steam...) What you find is that, as it goes down, the pyramid gets bigger. Much, MUCH bigger. By saying "My character comes up with the idea at the top of the pyramid," you are also presupposing that he has also come up with all of the ideas that made that idea possible...and that's a work beyond any single mind.
Pyro_Azer 06-30-07, 01:27 PM	What you find is that, as it goes down, the pyramid gets bigger. Much, MUCH bigger. By saying "My character comes up with the idea at the top of the pyramid," you are also presupposing that he has also come up with all of the ideas that made that idea possible...and that's a work beyond any single mind. Not necessarily. Someof the pyra mid would already be around. Also others have developed revolutionary ideas reasonably quickly. Case in point: Issac Newton. Considering that 10 intelligence is average, if his charecter had 20+ plus int. we have no basis for comparison of what they could (or could not) devise. This is especially hard to measure when the charecter would have tools (such as magic) which we did not have access to when we designed locomotives.
dknight100 06-30-07, 01:46 PM	Actually, we have a measure of what Newton could or could not devise. Its called what he did or did not devise. Regarding the use of magic: in this case, it would be a specific hinderance to the entire railroad idea. 1800 years of people workign on the problem, just to beat horse and cart, let alone instantaneous travel for hundreds of miles with everything you can attach to your person, and anyone else holding hands for up to 8 people, several times a day. (for a high level wizard obviously). If there was any point erecting a rail network, or making one at all, a wizard could beat you by undercutting your price massively, and he would still turn a good profit, as he doesnt have anyhting like the investment of a railroad to manage. if you have a solution thats infinitely better, you dont use the other alternative. And somewhere around the middle of the pyramid really wouldnt work. It didnt take 1800 years because noone had sat down for a cup of tea and checked out the kettle hard enough.
Caelic 06-30-07, 01:48 PM	Not necessarily. Someof the pyra mid would already be around. Some, yes; all of the gaps would need to be filled in, though. You can't get to the top of the pyramid if only half of the base is built. Also others have developed revolutionary ideas reasonably quickly. Case in point: Issac Newton. ...whose work in the laws of motion was influenced by Galileo, Copernicus, and particularly Kepler; whose mathematical theories were influenced by those of Descartes, whose theories were made possible by the groundwork laid down by Aristotle and Plato, whose mathematics borrowed from the Phoenicians... Considering that 10 intelligence is average, if his charecter had 20+ plus int. we have no basis for comparison of what they could (or could not) devise. This is especially hard to measure when the charecter would have tools (such as magic) which we did not have access to when we designed locomotives. Well, yes, we do; "smart" just doesn't work that way. Scientific inquiry is a process. Intuitive flashes of insight--the "eureka" moment--are possible, but typically do not leap from the start of a thought chain to the end in one jump. They may transcend a few links, which then need to be retroactively reasoned out, but you don't go from "kettle" to "transcontinental railroad" in one jump. I think it's a bit silly to presume that a character with a 20-plus intelligence is smarter than any human being who has ever lived, and also has thought processes markedly different from those of any human being who ever lived. Essentially, this player wants his character not just to have a brilliant flash of insight--he wants his character to have the most brilliant flashes of insight ever achieved by many great thinkers in the real world, and to have them all simultaneously; not just to say "Eureka! I've discovered the principle of steam-driven force!" but also "I've simultaneously discovered the principle of the piston, discovered the principle of standard tolerances, invented the micrometers and calipers necessary to make that possible, envisioned standard-gauge rails and the wheels necessary to run on them, and come up with the idea for a transcontinental rail system!" That's some cup of tea.
TarlSS 06-30-07, 01:55 PM	I would say no. You're playing a medieval fantasy campaign, and the way most campaigns are defined when they have a time descriptor (Medieval) is technology. I wouldn't let the PCs 'come up' with major technological and cultural innovations, no way. That would you know sort of drag the 'medieval' out of the fantasy. Your character could come up with salt peter and make guns, build combustion engines and make cars, use magic and create computers and the internet. Much of technology is 'simple' once you get a real look at it. That doesn't mean it's particularly legitimate to a setting if you introduce technology. And yes, it is very unrealistic to 'look at a teapot'. Does your character even have ranks in Profession or Craft? Even if he did, it still wouldn't hold water. Essentially, you're breaking the agreement as to what game you're playing, what the boundries are, etc. Metagaming at it's worst. Try again, bucko.
Ayra 06-30-07, 09:25 PM	Some, yes; all of the gaps would need to be filled in, though. You can't get to the top of the pyramid if only half of the base is built. ...whose work in the laws of motion was influenced by Galileo, Copernicus, and particularly Kepler; whose mathematical theories were influenced by those of Descartes, whose theories were made possible by the groundwork laid down by Aristotle and Plato, whose mathematics borrowed from the Phoenicians... Well, yes, we do; "smart" just doesn't work that way. Scientific inquiry is a process. Intuitive flashes of insight--the "eureka" moment--are possible, but typically do not leap from the start of a thought chain to the end in one jump. They may transcend a few links, which then need to be retroactively reasoned out, but you don't go from "kettle" to "transcontinental railroad" in one jump. I think it's a bit silly to presume that a character with a 20-plus intelligence is smarter than any human being who has ever lived, and also has thought processes markedly different from those of any human being who ever lived. Essentially, this player wants his character not just to have a brilliant flash of insight--he wants his character to have the most brilliant flashes of insight ever achieved by many great thinkers in the real world, and to have them all simultaneously; not just to say "Eureka! I've discovered the principle of steam-driven force!" but also "I've simultaneously discovered the principle of the piston, discovered the principle of standard tolerances, invented the micrometers and calipers necessary to make that possible, envisioned standard-gauge rails and the wheels necessary to run on them, and come up with the idea for a transcontinental rail system!" That's some cup of tea. I think that inventions come with needs. The character in this case scenario travels a lot from place to place, so he will have to think of a solution to his problem as he obviously thinks the current way of transportation is bad. Building a train in this case scenario is bad, because a train is a solid foundation that doesn't move. You connect place A to place B and when your next quest is in place C, you'd either have to build a new railroad or still use your old way of transportation. He'd have to look at the current picture. Something that's better than horses. The first thing that would cross my mind would be to hire a cleric of Fharlaghn. Looking at the steaming kettle would be the "Eureka" moment, defining the solution to a project, not jumping from solution to project. Now the player wants to jump from solution to a project, which is just impossible. That's like me saying "5" and you thinking the calculation used is "2+3", while there can be many different calculations that give 5 as a solution. If my logic doesn't make sense, it's probably because it's 3.30am, but I do have a point.. bringing it across, however... :(
Adrez Nesnsid 06-30-07, 09:28 PM	BTW, I wasn't aware that dyslexia affected grammar and punctuation. I'll have to learn more about it. So many people I've met on the internet say they have it when it seems they're just lazy or 'can't be bothered' to read what they write (even though they expect others to do so). If you read the first post closely, you'll see that he said that he was dyslexic AND couldn't be bothered to check his grammer. Not just one or the other. Also, I haven't read the entire thread, but is there really anything related to wiping out kittens in the thread, as the title implies?
mearrin69 06-30-07, 11:16 PM	If you read the first post closely, you'll see that he said that he was dyslexic AND couldn't be bothered to check his grammer. Not just one or the other. Ah, yes, well, I couldn't be bothered to read it closely. :D M
Holy_Beholder 07-01-07, 09:36 AM	Also, I haven't read the entire thread, but is there really anything related to wiping out kittens in the thread, as the title implies? Maybe they rub down the center of the railroad with catnip. Or maybe they put the railroad around lots of kittens, through houses where kittens travel between. Who knows.
OleOneEye 07-02-07, 02:46 AM	Throk the Eggheaded had run caravan escort duty for a couple year now, the long and boring stretch from Kingcity to Portcity. He understood quite well the problems of moving bulk goods in long wagon trains. Being his favorite drink of choice, he sat brewing a pot of tea one day. Seeing the steam rise, he absend-mindedly put his hand over it. He could feel the pressure. With nothing better to do, he held a feather over top and noted that it was pushed upward. Only amused so far, he happened to look out the window and saw a windmill turning in the autumn breeze. Putting two and two together, he figured that steam might be able to turn some fan blades like wind does a windmill. Fashioning a pinwheel mockup of the windmill, he held it over the steaming pot. Low and behold, it worked. Still with nothing better to do, he went to town and bought every style of tea pot he could. With a little testing, he found that different shapes of pot were more efficient at turning the pinwheel. He knew that windmills turned grindwheels though interlocking cogs. Fancifully daydreaming, grindwheels are quite similar to wagon wheels. Perhaps wagon wheels could be turned by his tea pot steam, well if he used a really big tea pot. If wagon wheels could be turned directly, there wouldn't be a need for all those oxen teams, and man were the oxen teams a pain to take care of. Rain started pouring outside. Throk started thinking about how wagons often got stuck in the muddy roads between Kingcity and Portcity. Strapping together extra teams of oxen could pull the wagons out, but his developing idea negated the need for oxen. Musing over his ideas, he saw a group of peasants struggling with dragging a crate in the muddy roads outside. Stupid peasants that can't even afford a wagon to carry their crate. They were simply using some planks and dragging the crate along the planks. But wait, by using the planks, the crate was not getting stuck in the mud. What if his steam-powered wagons rolled along planks. Rolling works so much better than dragging, and it would not be getting stuck. Hmm...constantly laying planks out in front of the wagon would be tedious. Silly ideas ran through Throks head, what if planks stretched all the way from Kingcity to Portcity. Hey, that would probably work pretty good. As I read the OP, this is pretty much the situation that he is in. He hasn't actually designed anything. His character doesn't know if it will actually work or not. Is this dangerous metagaming or a campaign opportunity?
dknight100 07-02-07, 02:57 AM	The biggest setback here is that while the idea can be come up with (though i find the whole sees cogs part a bit dubious, given the same potential situation here and yet noone came up with trains hundreds of years earlier), actually getting it to the point where its a working train is huge. people knew steam could push stuff back in the 1st century AD, but it took till the 19th century to make something pushed by steam that was more effective than a caravan with some beast of burden on it. In the case of dnd, he needs to find a way to recoup on investment where the option for teleport is available - instantaneous transport for hundreds of miles with no chance of being robbed by bandits etc. While paying casting fee on your own would be considerable, you could save a large amount of money by going with several people (seeing as teleport can take up to 8 + equipment) The potential to teleport (assuming a standard dnd setting) would not remove all of the market, as many people might still be unable to afford it (though costs to keep a caravan going, such as food for people and beasts of burden, wages for people, other material requirements would have to be considered). however, teleport would remove a decent part of the market, and it would be the part of the market with money too.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-02-07, 03:10 AM	tell my does your PC have the proper skill ranks to even think of doing something like this?
Tinari 07-02-07, 04:07 AM	BTW, I wasn't aware that dyslexia affected grammar and punctuation. I'll have to learn more about it. So many people I've met on the internet say they have it when it seems they're just lazy or 'can't be bothered' to read what they write (even though they expect others to do so). My cousin has dyslexia. He can read and type as well as most on the internet, he just takes his time to make sure he's doing it right. I myself often type things backwards from time to time, but I can see words I've done that with and correct them easily. It's not like I am in a rush to get what I type on the internet as quick as humanly possible.
Caelic 07-02-07, 03:24 PM	As an English teacher, I've tutored a number of dyslexic students over the past several years. When the subject came up at all, they were almost universally irritated by the "I r dislezxik, u no say bad abowt mi speling" posters. I remember what one of them said: "I don't care if they want to be lazy, but why do they have to pretend to be dyslexic and make it look like we're all lazy?"
Caelic 07-02-07, 03:29 PM	As I read the OP, this is pretty much the situation that he is in. He hasn't actually designed anything. His character doesn't know if it will actually work or not. Is this dangerous metagaming or a campaign opportunity? I'd say it's a bad precedent. Suppose you allow it, as a DM. A few weeks later, the party alchemist says, "Hey, if he can invent that, why can't my character figure out that sulfur plus saltpeter plus charcoal will create a potent explosive, and then go on to figure out that this explosive could launch a ball out of a metal tube? That's a lot simpler principle than a steam engine!" Do you say no? What if they want to figure out that the black gunk that oozes up out of the ground in certain areas can be distilled and used to fuel engines more efficiently than steam? In a world where someone can singlehandedly reconstruct a thought chain that took hundreds of years in the real world, there'd be no real reason to say "No," and if you did, you'd have the problem of appearing to play favorites. Industrial Revolution: the RPG could be interesting, but I suspect most players would prefer to know that that's what they're sitting down to play beforehand.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-03-07, 12:32 PM	As an English teacher, I've tutored a number of dyslexic students over the past several years. When the subject came up at all, they were almost universally irritated by the "I r dislezxik, u no say bad abowt mi speling" posters. I remember what one of them said: "I don't care if they want to be lazy, but why do they have to pretend to be dyslexic and make it look like we're all lazy?" QFT. A good mate of mine is Dyslexic. His spelling is a little off, his grammar is fine, and his reading comprehension is well above average cos he needs to take a lot more time actually reading things rather than glossing over them with schemas as most of us do. Back on topic: this is a terrible idea, the reasons why having been spelled out many times over in this thread. Let it die.