Centaur Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Centaur Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GSonic7
02-03-07, 09:08 AM For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur?
runestar
02-03-07, 09:16 AM Yes.
Centaurs are allowed to take spirited charge without having to meet the prereqs. See races of faerun for more info.:)
Thubby
02-03-07, 02:47 PM For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur?

for trips and overrunning other people, he is considered mounted. for when someone does it to him, he is not (he cant be tripped off his horse), but you get a +4 for having 4 legs.
i believe centaurs are considered as having mounted combat for the purposes of mounted feets. but, since you dont actualy have it, nothing happens. even if you took it, you would need a mount for youself (an elephant or something) to use it.
questionc
02-03-07, 04:26 PM For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur?

No, Centaurs are not considered mounted for the purposes of tripping or overrunning. Mounted combat does not apply to centaurs, unless the centaur is in fact mounted on something.
Crimson_Concerto
02-03-07, 04:31 PM Nothing in the Centaur description or anywhere else in 3.5 suggests any such ability for them to ever be considered mounted (or even to have the Mounted Combat feat) for anything. Unless they have amount, they are not mounted, and that's pretty much the end of it.
stargate525
02-03-07, 05:34 PM Begs the Question, what the heck do Centaurs ride?
obrysii
02-03-07, 05:49 PM Nothing in the Centaur description or anywhere else in 3.5 suggests any such ability for them to ever be considered mounted (or even to have the Mounted Combat feat) for anything. Unless they have amount, they are not mounted, and that's pretty much the end of it.

Not true.

While it does not say it in the Centaur description, it does elsewhere:

Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat.

If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like?
Dei
02-03-07, 07:21 PM Not true.
If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like?

I can see where you're coming from but... :nonono: With so many books floating around you could find something like this for virtually every race in the multiverse. In the Dm's guide it gives the specific guidance on interpreting rules that unless it specifically mentions something as applying to something else all references should be considered to be in passing. The difference between a vastly powerful and magical creature being treated as having mounted combat and a basic creature being treated the same are well... yeah, different.

Something like this is the same as saying, well a ford fiesta has a supercar-like construction (four wheels, an engine and a chasis, which is about the same resemblance as the inevitable bears to a normal centaur) it must have all the features of a supercar too even though everything else I've read about the fiesta makes no mention of these features whatsoever.
obrysii
02-03-07, 07:28 PM Something like this is the same as saying, well a ford fiesta has a supercar-like construction (four wheels, an engine and a chasis, which is about the same resemblance as the inevitable bears to a normal centaur) it must have all the features of a supercar too even though everything else I've read about the fiesta makes no mention of these features whatsoever.

If the supercar says that it "has four wheels due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then the ford fiesta will also have four wheels.

If X = Y, then Y = X.
Dei
02-03-07, 07:36 PM If the supercar says that it "has four wheels due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then the ford fiesta will also have four wheels.

If X = Y, then Y = X.

Okay I'll admit the analogy wasn't the best one but the fact remains, the rules never once say anywhere ever that a centaur gets this feat. It mentions it in passing once when refering to a completely different creature and explaining the flavour behind one of it's feats. Taking this to mean that all creatures of a similar type automatically have the same feat even though they are never mentioned as having it is not only a stretch it's a superman leap in imagination.

Let's try a different analogy, the fact that a supercar has a ford-fiesta like construction allows an awesome engine to be mounted in it. This does not no-how no-way mean that ford-fiestas will have an awesome engine. I thank you, case closed.
obrysii
02-03-07, 08:07 PM Okay I'll admit the analogy wasn't the best one but the fact remains, the rules never once say anywhere ever that a centaur gets this feat. It mentions it in passing once when refering to a completely different creature and explaining the flavour behind one of it's feats. Taking this to mean that all creatures of a similar type automatically have the same feat even though they are never mentioned as having it is not only a stretch it's a superman leap in imagination.

Let's try a different analogy, the fact that a supercar has a ford-fiesta like construction allows an awesome engine to be mounted in it. This does not no-how no-way mean that ford-fiestas will have an awesome engine. I thank you, case closed.

1. Neither the centaur nor the inevitable get the Mounted Combat feat. They are simply treated as having it for purposes of prereqs.

2. It isn't flavor-text. It's explanatory text in the Combat section.

3. Again, your analogy does not work. If it read, "A supercar can mount an awesome engine in it due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then a ford fiesta would also be able to mount the aforementioned engine.

4. Here's the logic behind it:
If X is able to do Y due to Z, then Z is able to do Y
runestar
02-04-07, 12:43 AM Everyone ignores me...:weep:
questionc
02-04-07, 02:54 AM Everyone ignores me...:weep:

Actually, I got a friends copy of Races of Faerun and looked at the centaur entry. I didn't notice any reference to Spirited Charge. A quote would be appropriate.

Even then though... Races of Faerun isn't really something I'd trust to errata the MM.

If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like?
To be honest, I have trouble with using the rules for an
ECL 15,
wholly unsuitable for PC play monster,
which was statted up after the Centaur ,
in a non-core book,
and later imported into the 3.5MM,
as errata material for the Centaur.

Personally, I believe that the Centaur received enough attention from the devs that if they intended for it to have "Mounted Combat" free, then they would have said so explicitly.
Neutronium_Dragon
02-04-07, 04:14 AM It's right under the header, in the little regions/racial feats/racial hit dice/etc block.

"Racial Feats: None, but centaurs can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks."

This isn't really errata-ing the MM so much as it's expanding on it. The MM is correct as written, but it doesn't cover every possible rules interaction.
Dei
02-04-07, 09:03 AM 1. Neither the centaur nor the inevitable get the Mounted Combat feat. They are simply treated as having it for purposes of prereqs.

Which is exactly my point. No where anywhere ever in any book on this world or any other does it say that centaurs are treated as such. The analogies were just examples to try and show you this fact, though attempting to use them on someone able to make the imaginative leaps shown here was perhaps misguided.

Oh and yes, a ford fiesta possibly could mount the same awesome engine. Does this mean it has got this awesome engine? No, it doesn't. therefore yes, a centaur possbily could take the mounted combat feat, by all means I do not dispute this. But it is not automatically treated as having it. It ignores the pre-reqs on a couple of other feats, that's all. Never anywhere does it say "treat teh centaur as having mounted combat". Until it does say so in a Raw book, this will continue to be true.
obrysii
02-04-07, 11:53 AM But it is not automatically treated as having it. It ignores the pre-reqs on a couple of other feats, that's all.

So in other words, we've been arguing in circles, as we are, and have been, in an agreement?
Neutronium_Dragon
02-04-07, 11:56 AM As far as being able to take Spirited Charge and Trample and use them without a mount, yes. He's still not considered to be mounted or to have the Mounted Combat feat, both of which would cause other effects if they were true.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GSonic7 02-03-07, 09:08 AM	For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur?
runestar 02-03-07, 09:16 AM	Yes. Centaurs are allowed to take spirited charge without having to meet the prereqs. See races of faerun for more info.:)
Thubby 02-03-07, 02:47 PM	For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur? for trips and overrunning other people, he is considered mounted. for when someone does it to him, he is not (he cant be tripped off his horse), but you get a +4 for having 4 legs. i believe centaurs are considered as having mounted combat for the purposes of mounted feets. but, since you dont actualy have it, nothing happens. even if you took it, you would need a mount for youself (an elephant or something) to use it.
questionc 02-03-07, 04:26 PM	For tripping or overrunning, does a centaur count as mounted? If so, how do the rules for mounted combat apply to a centaur? No, Centaurs are not considered mounted for the purposes of tripping or overrunning. Mounted combat does not apply to centaurs, unless the centaur is in fact mounted on something.
Crimson_Concerto 02-03-07, 04:31 PM	Nothing in the Centaur description or anywhere else in 3.5 suggests any such ability for them to ever be considered mounted (or even to have the Mounted Combat feat) for anything. Unless they have amount, they are not mounted, and that's pretty much the end of it.
stargate525 02-03-07, 05:34 PM	Begs the Question, what the heck do Centaurs ride?
obrysii 02-03-07, 05:49 PM	Nothing in the Centaur description or anywhere else in 3.5 suggests any such ability for them to ever be considered mounted (or even to have the Mounted Combat feat) for anything. Unless they have amount, they are not mounted, and that's pretty much the end of it. Not true. While it does not say it in the Centaur description, it does elsewhere: Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat. If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like?
Dei 02-03-07, 07:21 PM	Not true. If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like? I can see where you're coming from but... :nonono: With so many books floating around you could find something like this for virtually every race in the multiverse. In the Dm's guide it gives the specific guidance on interpreting rules that unless it specifically mentions something as applying to something else all references should be considered to be in passing. The difference between a vastly powerful and magical creature being treated as having mounted combat and a basic creature being treated the same are well... yeah, different. Something like this is the same as saying, well a ford fiesta has a supercar-like construction (four wheels, an engine and a chasis, which is about the same resemblance as the inevitable bears to a normal centaur) it must have all the features of a supercar too even though everything else I've read about the fiesta makes no mention of these features whatsoever.
obrysii 02-03-07, 07:28 PM	Something like this is the same as saying, well a ford fiesta has a supercar-like construction (four wheels, an engine and a chasis, which is about the same resemblance as the inevitable bears to a normal centaur) it must have all the features of a supercar too even though everything else I've read about the fiesta makes no mention of these features whatsoever. If the supercar says that it "has four wheels due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then the ford fiesta will also have four wheels. If X = Y, then Y = X.
Dei 02-03-07, 07:36 PM	If the supercar says that it "has four wheels due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then the ford fiesta will also have four wheels. If X = Y, then Y = X. Okay I'll admit the analogy wasn't the best one but the fact remains, the rules never once say anywhere ever that a centaur gets this feat. It mentions it in passing once when refering to a completely different creature and explaining the flavour behind one of it's feats. Taking this to mean that all creatures of a similar type automatically have the same feat even though they are never mentioned as having it is not only a stretch it's a superman leap in imagination. Let's try a different analogy, the fact that a supercar has a ford-fiesta like construction allows an awesome engine to be mounted in it. This does not no-how no-way mean that ford-fiestas will have an awesome engine. I thank you, case closed.
obrysii 02-03-07, 08:07 PM	Okay I'll admit the analogy wasn't the best one but the fact remains, the rules never once say anywhere ever that a centaur gets this feat. It mentions it in passing once when refering to a completely different creature and explaining the flavour behind one of it's feats. Taking this to mean that all creatures of a similar type automatically have the same feat even though they are never mentioned as having it is not only a stretch it's a superman leap in imagination. Let's try a different analogy, the fact that a supercar has a ford-fiesta like construction allows an awesome engine to be mounted in it. This does not no-how no-way mean that ford-fiestas will have an awesome engine. I thank you, case closed. 1. Neither the centaur nor the inevitable get the Mounted Combat feat. They are simply treated as having it for purposes of prereqs. 2. It isn't flavor-text. It's explanatory text in the Combat section. 3. Again, your analogy does not work. If it read, "A supercar can mount an awesome engine in it due to it's ford fiesta-like construction" then a ford fiesta would also be able to mount the aforementioned engine. 4. Here's the logic behind it: If X is able to do Y due to Z, then Z is able to do Y
runestar 02-04-07, 12:43 AM	Everyone ignores me...:weep:
questionc 02-04-07, 02:54 AM	Everyone ignores me...:weep: Actually, I got a friends copy of Races of Faerun and looked at the centaur entry. I didn't notice any reference to Spirited Charge. A quote would be appropriate. Even then though... Races of Faerun isn't really something I'd trust to errata the MM. If an Inevitable qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centuar-like, wouldn't a Centaur qualify for feats as it if had the Mounted Combat feat because it is centaur-like? To be honest, I have trouble with using the rules for an ECL 15, wholly unsuitable for PC play monster, which was statted up after the Centaur , in a non-core book, and later imported into the 3.5MM, as errata material for the Centaur. Personally, I believe that the Centaur received enough attention from the devs that if they intended for it to have "Mounted Combat" free, then they would have said so explicitly.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-04-07, 04:14 AM	It's right under the header, in the little regions/racial feats/racial hit dice/etc block. "Racial Feats: None, but centaurs can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks." This isn't really errata-ing the MM so much as it's expanding on it. The MM is correct as written, but it doesn't cover every possible rules interaction.
Dei 02-04-07, 09:03 AM	1. Neither the centaur nor the inevitable get the Mounted Combat feat. They are simply treated as having it for purposes of prereqs. Which is exactly my point. No where anywhere ever in any book on this world or any other does it say that centaurs are treated as such. The analogies were just examples to try and show you this fact, though attempting to use them on someone able to make the imaginative leaps shown here was perhaps misguided. Oh and yes, a ford fiesta possibly could mount the same awesome engine. Does this mean it has got this awesome engine? No, it doesn't. therefore yes, a centaur possbily could take the mounted combat feat, by all means I do not dispute this. But it is not automatically treated as having it. It ignores the pre-reqs on a couple of other feats, that's all. Never anywhere does it say "treat teh centaur as having mounted combat". Until it does say so in a Raw book, this will continue to be true.
obrysii 02-04-07, 11:53 AM	But it is not automatically treated as having it. It ignores the pre-reqs on a couple of other feats, that's all. So in other words, we've been arguing in circles, as we are, and have been, in an agreement?
Neutronium_Dragon 02-04-07, 11:56 AM	As far as being able to take Spirited Charge and Trample and use them without a mount, yes. He's still not considered to be mounted or to have the Mounted Combat feat, both of which would cause other effects if they were true.