Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iridia_Stonehenge 03-14-05, 02:18 AM	My character has recently found herself at odds with her party, and I would appreciate advice on how to deal with the situation, if at all possible without fighting or someone having to leave the party. I've already discussed this with my DM, and he says he trusts my judgment--which scares me, because I'm really not sure what to do! Essentially, the problem is a culture clash: My PC's culture, versus the ideas of the people around her. Details on the character: Tyrah, Female Ghostwise Halfling Sorcerer 4; mental stats: INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 17; deity, Mielikki; AL, CG. Ghostwise halflings are barbarians; and my character's tribe is no different--consequently, she grew up away from civilization. What led her to an adventuring life was, basically, the orders of a king based on a dragon-shaped birthmark and a prophecy. Not that she's homesick; she's also quite curious and wants to find everything out. She feels very comfortable in nature, and loves the wild. All in all, she's rather innocent, a wide-eyed child out to take in the wonders of the world. One of the things I've established for her is that her particular tribe has a lot of respect for the dead, even enemy dead--on several occasions, whenever possible, she's attempted to bury or otherwise take care of the corpses they left behind (within the bounds of safety and time, of course). On one particular situation, she even removed the tack from a dead warhorse, saying that it would rest more easily that way. Tyrah's first major battle came when the rogue attempted to break into an empty house... which turned out to be full of undead (zombies, ghuls, skeletons). She had never seen undead before, beyond legends, and came away from that fight--a close shave for several companions--with a real loathing for the "unnatural walking dead". After a bit more adventuring (including the addition of a paladin of Tyr to the party, and Tyrah's first real introduction to the religions of the outside world--she came to rather admire this paladin and his prayers for the dead, though unbeknownst to her he is actually questioning his faith), the group went back to the city ruled by the king who had summoned them all in the first place. The city, and its strange division between Good and Evil, is where we run into problems. One half of the city is ruled by King Willtum, a Good-aligned ruler; the other half, by King Feniska, who is Evil. They are brothers; and the city has been ruled this way for centuries--one half Good, the other half Evil. The citizens seem to have accepted this; and the two kings do not fight each other. We had some information about a goblin army coming towards the city, and we brought it to King Willtum, who had hired us to check up on the goblins; he told us to take the same message to King Feniska. We had met up with one of King Feniska's patrols on the way back; and when they threatened to torture our party leader (an NPC) for information, a fight had occurred during which we killed most of the enemy party and captured one (a female ranger; she was returned to Feniska, who killed her for failing him). In any event, this gave Feniska the leverage he needed to force us to undertake a quest for him, as we had done for his brother; and our Paladin (acting as party face) accepted it as orders from a superior. Tyrah really does not like Feniska, probably because, for one thing, his castle is filled with undead servants; and for another thing, he threatened to kill our party (he could not have done so without getting in trouble with his brother; but Tyrah doesn't know enough about politics to realize this). The quest itself is where things get really rocky: To defend the city, Feniska intends to raise several preserved bodies of an ancient race as undead; and he wants us to make our way into the crypts to have our (NPC) healer read the scrolls which will raise these undead. My party's opinion: The Human Monk, LN, Is impressed with Feniska's power, and wishes to ally with him; the Human Paladin, LG, does not like necromancy in general, but will follow orders, even if they come from an evil ruler. The other two, a rogue and fighter, are ambivalent. The fighter generally feels that failing Feniska would result in our deaths (this is likely); so self-preservation is the way to go--and, besides, isn't this going to defend the city? And then there's my character. First of all, she's Chaotic--which means she doesn't feel bound by either laws or orders from above. Second, she comes from a culture which respects the dead. And, third... Feniska just threatened to kill her friends. The prevailing culture in this setting accepts necromancy as something slightly distasteful; and the Good side of town doesn't practice it. However, the Evil side of town accepts and embraces it, as we saw in Feniska's castle. The whole town seems to have accepted it as normal; and, by extension, all the PCs do so as well--even the Paladin (though, as I said, he's a paladin of Tyr and thus sees Law as more important than Good, unlike most Paladins). Consequently, my own character, with her outsider's viewpoint, is horrified at what the party has been asked to do; she thinks they would be much better off to defend the town themselves, rather than raise undead to do it; and has actually gone so far as to say she would rather be killed by a goblin than defended by an undead creature. All she's done now is to send a message to King Willtum, informing him of what they've been sent to do; and the party has decided to sleep on it. I asked my DM, and he confirmed that, yes, necromancy is evil in his campaign world; however, it does not trap the soul inside the body (I'm guessing the DM has placed it as a minor or moderate evil; though Tyrah thinks it's even worse than murder). I have an idea that the DM expected us to go on this quest without many moral qualms; I guess my character surprised him a little. I'm not doing this to be a bother, it just seems like what my character would do... Right now, my plan is to have Tyrah go along when they go into the crypts and find out as much as she can about undead in general (this is normal for her--she wants to find out everything about everything), and Feniska's plans in particular. She hopes to double-cross him somehow, to make him think they can't raise the undead at all, and somehow escape with her life; but this plan would need the party's cooperation to work (and, remember, we have a Paladin in it, and he refuses to lie or deceive anyone, especially his superiors). If she can't talk her companions into doing something like this, she will attempt to cast something distracting at the healer while she reads the scrolls, hopefully spoiling the spell. The problem is that either one of these plans seems like it would end in death when Feniska finds out we've crossed him--if not for the entire party, then for Tyrah at least. The only other alternative seems to be leaving the party... Does anyone have any other ideas? How can I stay true to my character without either having her killed or leaving? Sorry about the long post, and thanks in advance.
Callista 03-14-05, 03:12 AM	Hmm, okay: The short story, for those of you who don't want to read that big post: The character in question is a CG sorcerer who grew up with barbarians. Her culture respects dead bodies. Now she's moved to a different culture, where necromancy is common. She's just been ordered to take the party cleric to a cryptful of creatures which the cleric will then raise as undead. Obviously the character doesn't want to do this, but how can she avoid helping raise undead creatures without either getting killed or attacking the party? What I don't get is why the paladin isn't on this character's side, if the DM says necromancy is evil... Or, why is it evil at all (since the soul doesn't stay with the undead body)?
anders 03-14-05, 07:12 AM	I'm also a bit taken back that the paladin wants to create undeads to defend the city... Sounds weird to me. Creating evil to defeat evil? but still.... in my opinion thats not how paladins do things. I say you go with your guts. You have a perfect background story for not accepting to create these undeads. Your DM can not force you to do stuff you dont want to do. But I have to agree, this is a tough one ;)
FallenPenitent 03-14-05, 07:14 AM	Why don't you run ahead of the rest of the party, desecrate the bodies without their knowledge (hiding various body parts, removing any reference to their name and time of death so even True Resurrection wont work) and then go out and slay some goblins, leaving their corpses in the tomb to frame them. Then you can return to Feniska, claiming that goblins got to the bodies before you did, and offer to defend the city yourselves instead.
The_Dark_One 03-14-05, 08:02 AM	My guess is that you are about to have the singular privillage of watching a paladin fall. :weep:
fallabel 03-14-05, 08:12 AM	You should try to summon a demon, so that the Paladin can eventually become a Blackguard. He's gonna need it.
Iridia_Stonehenge 03-14-05, 05:32 PM	Well, what the Paladin does is really his player's choice, I suppose, and perhaps, to a degree, the DM's. For his part, the DM seems to be taking a lenient stance towards paladins in general; so this one is being played so close to LN that I really can't tell the difference. Then again... Paladin of Tyr. Like I said. He probably won't fall unless he decides to roast babies alive or some such. That Paladin really is going to be my biggest hurdle, though (and thankfully the player is decent at RP). My character's dissenting opinion is going to force him to choose between any plan I come up with--which is probably going to involve trickery of some sort--and following his orders, while restraining Tyrah (easily done: Small-sized STR 10 versus STR 17-ish...). I guess I just don't like the setup in the city... it really places that paladin in a bind when he's forced to recognize both the Evil and Good authorities at the same time. I don't see any way I can give him a way out that he can use without feeling he's being insubordinate. Talk about a conflict of Law versus Chaos, huh? The other characters, who also believe it's okay (if a little distasteful) to raise these undead--I may be able to bring some of them around to my character's viewpoint. I don't have a Charisma of 17 for nothing, after all. And if I want to try subterfuge, Ghostwise Halflings get this really neat ability called Speak Without Sound, which allows them to converse via "telepathy" with anyone within 20 feet. Thing is, Tyrah really doesn't want to turn her companions into wanted criminals... and being the "traitor" of the group--say, sneaking ahead and destroying the bodies--would simply prompt Feniska to execute the lot of us. Leaving the party--which seems like a last-ditch option--really doesn't seem like what Tyrah would do, either. I thought about it; but then realized the only benefit of doing that would be that she wouldn't actually see the undead being raised. It's about the same thing as standing there and letting it happen (which is what she's supposed to do). It's been suggested I should think of it as escorting the healer to the bodies so she can raise the undead; but when you're chaotic, you just don't rationalize like that--especially if you come from a rather simplistic barbarian culture. You follow your gut... and Tyrah's gut (and upbringing) says "Undead=evil"! Re. Framing the goblins: That might work if the army had already arrived... they haven't, though. We have the better part of a week before they do. Yes, I know--I'm in a pickle. Help!
Callista 03-15-05, 04:25 AM	Thought of stealing the scrolls? I know you're not playing a rogue... but maybe you can pull it off anyway. Magical assistance helps, too--do you have Invisibility? If you're lucky then you can blame it on pickpockets or something.
Vatras 03-15-05, 04:44 AM	Thats a tough one. I can tell you what would happen when my players were in your shoes: - The paladin would vote for removing the evil king from power after hearing the plan (not in his presence, but in private council, and then find ways how to bring that about, starting a revolution if he had to). - The cleric would second the paladins vote and assist him in all ways. - The barbarian would not mind either way (he is a half-orc), and probably suggest to ally with the coming horde to get rid of the king first... - The sorcerer would probably look for ways to get rid of the evil king (he is opposed to necromancy in all ways), and if he had to hire assassins. He might also consider to get rid of the good brother too, and replace their rule by a republic for good measure. - The wizard would heartily embrace the evil kings plans in the open and ingratiate himself with him, to get a better shot at his back later on. You can see, with my players this plot would never work out as intended. I would probably get to see some creative ideas of my players how to solve the problem(s), though (we spent once an entire session planning a spying/assassination mission to be undertaken by a henchman).
MarkB 03-15-05, 06:32 AM	What were this ancient race, and were they good or evil? One possible solution would be to ask an NPC cleric from the good half of the city to accompany you (always a good idea when venturing into a crypt), and use Speak With Dead to find out whether these ancient beings would have been willing to have their undead corpses used in defense of a good-and-evil city. If the answer is "yes", the halfling has a salve to her conscience - if the dead are willing, then making them undead is not disrespectful to them. If the answer is "no", she's got an extra argument on her side - the Paladin is going to be on very shaky ground if he aids in the desecration of a corpse once he knows for a fact that it goes against its former owner's beliefs and wishes.
CzarGarrett 03-15-05, 09:50 AM	Well, just off the top of my head without too much conflict within your party, you could try to convince them to find another way. Raising some undead vs gaining the help of some humanoids not far from the city- either way you can gain more forces to defend the city. And that way the dead aren't bothered. OR- do some research into this ancient race. Maybe they made some sort of agreement that in times of crisis, they could be raised to defend the city.
Callista 03-16-05, 01:15 PM	Hmm... I wonder. Yeah, I'd say raising undead using bodies of people who gave permission is probably only mildly evil (you're creating an evil-but-mindless creature that, if uncontrolled, will kill people). It does still go against the character's taboo, but with INT 12, you don't have to be completely against change... and Chaotics are flexible enough so you may be able to go with it, though you may not like it... I'd think the Paladin would have more problems, really, but that's just me.
Maerdash 03-16-05, 01:34 PM	First i would look for another way to defend the city, the walking dead (ie zombies and skeletons) are crap on the field of battle(hmmm no brains i wonder why) and int undead are NOT the way to go that ussually turns nasty(my world now has a 45,000,000 pop necropolis because players cant leave the dead where they belong). Look for a band of gnolls to hire, point out to the paladin that GOOD outweighs the laws of a evil and corupt lord and if he doesnt change his tune kill the black gaurd in his sleep because he certainly isnt a paladin :D lol
moustache guy 03-16-05, 02:31 PM	First, I'd talk to the DM. If he planned out only to have you guys complete this ritual, then he will be against any action you do to stop it. At that point, it would be bad DMing and you would have only two options. First, your character could leave. Second, you could forget that your character is good and cares about the situation and just follow through. But let's say that the DM is okay with your objection and has other routes the party could take. Then I would talk with both the DM and the person playing the paladin to try to inform the paladin player how a paladin really would act. (I know that sounds terrible, but it is true.) The paladin, even a paladin of Tyr, is supposed to be lawful good, not LN. You can find more info on "How is a paladin supposed to act?" all over these boards. Be sensitive, though. If the DM doesn't back you, it will be harder. Also, people hate being told how their character is supposed to be played. So just bring up a few things and guage the paladin player's response. If he/she gets all mad and defensive, stop real fast. You don't want to antagonize them OOC and feel some IC reprocussions. So let's say that the paladin player doesn't listen to you (which should result in a fallen paladin) Other ideas? Remove the the healer responsible for the animation from the scenario. You could kill him, scare him off, bribe him, report him to the good king and have him arrested, etc. Just make sure he isn't in a position to animate anything. Or perhaps that is too heavy handed for you. Another way could be to steal/destroy the scrolls or material components for the animation. Another method might be to send a message to the king, and get the party to cross over to his kingdom for a time. Then the party can be arrested for conspiracy to animate the dead (or something like that). Depending on your spell pick and available scrolls, you could charm the "healer" or (not the best idea) charm a PC. You could hide the tomb entrance with a silent image spell. The DM really put you in a bad spot. The best way out of this would be DM intervention, such as a summons from the good king. But for that, you would have to convince the DM. I find that doritos are a good bribe. DM: Oooo Critical hit on you. Me: Are you sure you confirmed that critical? *pulls out doritos* Dm: What's your AC? Me: 3 DM: Oh, my bad. I missed by 1. *takes doritos* :D
Phrennzy 03-16-05, 05:10 PM	First, let me say that I fully applaud the role-playing here by the halfling player. There is a third option - the halfling simply declines to participate. If the rest of the party wants to go and raise the undead army, she can find something else to do without necessarily obstructing them. I would chat with the DM and express your feelings and the idea of violating the graves and/or stealing the scrolls and/or distracting the caster. If the DM is not ready for these occurances things could get bad. He may not be fully aware of your PCs attitudes. If he simply allows you to do what you want, then it is up to you. Foiling the ritual will earn a price on the groups head. Staying out of the whole thing will let the party finish their goal. Maybe they tell the evil king the halfling didn't participate, maybe they don't. If the evil king finds out, maybe he tasks the halfling with another job more suited to her.
psionichamster 03-16-05, 05:45 PM	well, how do you feel about goblins? that does seem to be a valid option here...inform them of the upcoming "reinforcement" of the city, and tell them where and when the "ritual" is gonna happen yes, it's sneaky, underhanded, and slightly disloyal but you won't be making a buncha zombies good luck namaste, the hamster
Thonili_Moonbringer 03-16-05, 06:36 PM	I liked the idea previously posted about tampering with the bodies to make raising them impossible. Even if the goblin horde hasn't come yet, find a couple of gnolls or a bandit camp out in the woods and kill 'em off. You'd be doing good for the city by removing a minor threat, then you can take their corpses into the crypt and blame the monkey-wrench on them. You could even do it behind the party's back if an absolute necessary, though it might be smart to at least try and appeal to the rogue's sense of decency and get him to help you with the tampering while he's scouting out the crypt.
JohnSnow 03-16-05, 07:21 PM	Rereading the original post, I came across THIS: she came to rather admire this paladin and his prayers for the dead, though unbeknownst to her he is actually questioning his faith. Sounds to me like someone's gunning for Blackguard. He's questioning his faith, and tacitly complying with the BBEG (even if he's nominally a king, he's still a BBEG). The simple fact is that paladins can't choose to be "more lawful than neutral." When they do, they're about to fall. There are two especially pertinent paragraphs in the section of the PHB pertaining to paladins (p.44). "Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do do use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." By performing a mission for this king, the paladin is choosing to "knowingly associate with evil characters." Sounds fishy to me. Gold star to you for good roleplaying. However, a thousand whacks of the idiot bat to the paladin PC and the DM who's letting him get away with it.
Maniacal_Cackle 03-16-05, 08:20 PM	Rereading the original post, I came across THIS: Sounds to me like someone's gunning for Blackguard. He's questioning his faith, and tacitly complying with the BBEG (even if he's nominally a king, he's still a BBEG). The simple fact is that paladins can't choose to be "more lawful than neutral." When they do, they're about to fall. There are two especially pertinent paragraphs in the section of the PHB pertaining to paladins (p.44). "Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do do use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." By performing a mission for this king, the paladin is choosing to "knowingly associate with evil characters." Sounds fishy to me. Gold star to you for good roleplaying. However, a thousand whacks of the idiot bat to the paladin PC and the DM who's letting him get away with it. Hmmm... It would seem to me that it is well within their rights to change the rules to fit the campaign, and from what the OP said, it would seem that this particular paladin is more dedicated to law then good, so if it is alright with the DM, and none of the other players feel particularly aggravated about it (the OP seems to like the paladin?) then I see no reason why the paladin should be considered breaking alignment (though perhaps officially dub him lawful neutral and give him smite/detect chaos instead of evil...) That's what I would do in this situation anyway (assuming I had allowed a paladin focusing more on law than good). Edit: This is by no means saying that the paladin is not intending to become a blackguard, or that it is not a viable option. I was just expressing my opinion that maybe it wasn't such a bad thing. As for the OP, I would also consider trying to get other factions (such as another tribe) to attack the goblins. Though I think if I were doing it, I would probably go with what that other guy said and get the corpses permissions. If that didn't work out, well, I would probably sabotage the mission, run away, and create a more campaign-friendly character (did your DM bother telling you about the whole necromancy thing? I can see how it could easily be overlooked though). It would be awesome if your character turned into a "BBEG" of sorts; constantly crusading against the evil king's use of undead... Just my 2 cents or whatever you deem it.
Vharuck 03-16-05, 08:28 PM	If I were you (and your paladin, seriously, working for an evil ruler), I would go to the good king, plead my case (I am not going to raise the undead as I cannot stand the thought of it and see it as horribly vile), and ask him to stand behind your decision to deny the job. You'll need the protection.
Iridia_Stonehenge 03-17-05, 09:23 AM	Biggest problem right now: The evil king, after he gave the party their assignments, insisted that we should begin immediately. My character used a Bluff to tell him that we needed to rest first (we have two spellcasters, and this stands to reason); so now we have a little more time... but it's still not much: When the session ended, it was 5:00 p.m., and we had used Tyrah's familiar to send a message to the good King about what we were told to do. However, at noon on the next day, the evil King will send someone (quite possibly a mid-level character we couldn't just quietly knock out) to escort us to the crypt. So we have something like 19 hours--and eight less that, if Tyrah's going to have spells on the next day--to make any sort of plan. Re. the Paladin and Undead In a city where raising undead is done routinely in the bad part of town, and even occasionally in the good part of town, and necromancy is seen as only slightly evil (and maybe not even that), doesn't it stand to reason that a Paladin (who, by the way, is part of an order which accepts any Lawful--including LE) might think of it as distasteful but necessary--like, for example, a hidden sniper's arrow fired into the heart of an enemy commander; or some of the troops using poisoned weapons? (Neither of these, to my knowledge, is planned... wouldn't be surprised, though. Like I said, half the city is Evil.) Oh, yes, I'm sure that sort of rationalization is part of the road to Blackguard-hood, but with my DM and his world, it's certainly not all the way there. Since, in addition to this, the Paladin wouldn't actually be using these spells to raise the undead, his player is pretty sure his alignment is safe. Not saying that's the way I'd run it... just that that's the way it's being run. Re. My Plans, Out of Character: --Talk to the DM before I do anything really plot-wrenching, so he can be prepared. --Talk to the Paladin's player. He's likely to get in trouble with his superiors if my character pulls any shenanigans, and he should also be prepared. Re. My Plans, In Character: Well, first of all, my character has always been very inquisitive, and can ask questions without it being thought odd. I'll use this to my advantage: --Whether there are nearby allies who can be brought to aid us --The city's history with raising undead --The nature of the scrolls, and the resulting undead --What's known of the history of the ancient race I'll also attempt to try that Paladin's conscience. He must have *some* loyalty to Good; and if I can find a way to let him off the hook, I'm pretty sure he'd rather not raise the undead... but he's not gonna disobey orders either. Right now, the fighter and rogue are willing to go along with the plan because we're pretty much faced with a death sentence if we don't carry it out. If I can figure out a way to ensure they're not in too much danger of being killed by Feniska (and likely turned into zombies themselves), then I can get them on my side. Maybe. Last-Ditch Plans: If we can't get the Good king to stick up for us (he might--but he'll get in trouble with his brother!--it's very much a "balance of power" situation), then Tyrah will go into the crypts with her companions and use as much of a silver tongue as I can give her to try to sway people to her side. If I can do this, great--we'll find a way to frame someone for destroying the undead. Chances are, I'll have to keep the Monk and Paladin out of whatever plan we try--they'll have to be bluffed into thinking we really did find the bodies burned (or whatever... Tyrah worships Mielikki, so she doesn't use fire spells out in the wild, but I did buy a scroll of Scorching Ray. "Only YOU can prevent forest fires!" Heh.). If I can't, things are more iffy. However: --We are all 4th level. --Sleeping characters get -10 to Listen checks, I think... --Tyrah usually insists on taking watch (third-highest Spot check out of five). --I have access to the Sleep spell. --I have a scroll of Invisibility, if things go really wrong. Put 'em together, and you have some sleeping (magically as well as naturally) characters, a set of stolen scrolls, and a little pile of ashes scattered far and wide in some out-of-the-way corridor. A Disguise check should allow Tyrah to look as though she's been knocked unconscious; then some bluffing, and hopefully we can blame it on some traitor who overcame us in the night. We're much better off sending Feniska a message rather than reporting in person, though--like I said, he tends to kill people for failure. I need some info, though: How much does a body need to be destroyed before you can't raise it as undead? (Tyrah's first idea would be to burn the body. Dismembering it or otherwise mutilating it would seem almost as disrespectful as raising it.) Re. the "casting Sleep on already-sleeping party member so she won't wake up when you steal her scrolls" idea: Does a Helpless person get a Will save against sleep? The healer is catfolk, if that helps any. (Tyrah wouldn't know about any resistances they have, though.) Gah, another long post. Well, thanks for your comments, and thanks in advance for future comments! EDIT: From the SRDs: "Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures." Sooo... Maybe I have to rely on just that penalty to Listen checks? Though, technically, "sleeping" doesn't equal "unconscious", does it?
Callista 03-18-05, 05:29 PM	That's an interesting idea. Can you use the Sleep spell to make sure someone *stays* asleep, rather than to put them to sleep in the first place?
kliate 03-18-05, 06:32 PM	Promise to escort the healer to the tomb as ordered. On the way, team up with the paladin to help the NPC healer "see the light." Promise the healer protection from the evil king so that he won't have to worry as much about the negative repurcussions and escort him far enough away that the King will have a hard time reaching him (maybe even have him hide out in the tomb. If it were easily accessible, I doubt the king would have worried about sending the healer alone or with a minor guard of sorts). Next, engage the goblins yourselves. You've then fulfilled the spirit of the contract (defeated the goblins) and the letter (escorting the healer to the tomb). Not that you'll easily succeed if you take this path, but it is an option.