Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 01:13 AM	Okay, here's the challange. You're a bard drow in the effects of 'disguise self' and have cast Glibness on yourself, for a total Bluff modifier of +37 (You have 24 Cha). You finished casting a "Locate Object" spell and found the bag of holding that was stolen from you in a shop in town, apparently having been already sold to the shop keeper. You have a +37 bluff modifer. How do you get the bag from the shop keeper without spending any money using your bluff? Extra points for creativeness and for making solutions that most DMs could not deny.
Kalanth 02-18-06, 01:16 AM	I tell the Shop Keeper the bag was stolen from me, roll the dice, pretty much automatically succeed, and walk out of the shop with the bag of holding.
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 01:26 AM	My DM would never let that fly. There's no bluff in there and the shop keeper paid to have the bag at half prce to then sell it at full price. Nice try though. I wish it was that easy.
xvthreetwoonevx 02-18-06, 01:28 AM	Walk into the shop, browse around a little. Stop with a stunned look on your face in front of the bag, point at it and gibber like you've just seen a ghost. After having a seizure or two to make it more dramatic, tell the shopkeeper, "Friend, this is no ordinary bag! I have seen it...oh, the horror..." Look solemnly at him and say "This bag is cursed. Having it in your posession...oh, the terrible things I have seen..." Start crying a little, tell him that, for the good of the world, you will take the curse upon yourself and swiftly destroy the bag in the fires of Generic Volcano #1. If he tries to keep it still, inform him that you cannot let it fall into the hands of any more innocent people, nor corrupt the shopkeeper and his wares, and pay 100-200 gp for it.
Landman 02-18-06, 01:36 AM	Get an apple and a rotten apple. While you are browsing items in the shop, slyly stick in the rotten apple. (Bluff gives you +2 synergy to sleight of hand!) Then, come up to the shopkeep and say: "I notice you have this bag for sale... It's labeled as a bag of holding." "Yes... I'll let it go for full market price, naturally" "Well, I thought I should let you know that whoever sold this to you pulled a fast on on you. This is actually a bag of molding. It rots anything placed in it!" *Demonstrate with the apple* Continue with "I hate to see an innocent man swindled, so if you give me this bag of molding, I shall go find the man who sold it to you and make him give you your money back."
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 01:48 AM	I liked that last one. If the character used SoH as a skill then it would be plausable. : ( But the concept is in the right place. The one on the bag being cursed is wonderful. So far i'm argueing with myself and a few other DMs I know to see if that is an acceptable and plausable bluff to aquire the bag. One pointed out that Glibness may not help with the crying and dramatic show, but mainly for the words used to bluff the keeper. "Maybe the DM will let it slide" said I and another, so we're waiting for more replys to see.
Vaelan 02-18-06, 02:07 AM	You're Drow. Murder him and take it, along with anything else you want. You're a Bard, so you can cast Silence so that you will not be caught. Using Bluff, grab the bag and leave. When he starts to question you, inform him that you did not, in fact, just try to win the Worst Thief EVER award and that you are merely taking your perfectly mundane bag home with you. He believes you. Using Bluff, inform him that you can prove that the bag was stolen, that selling stolen property is against the law, and that you happen to be the nephew of whichever person is in charge of prosecuting those who break the law. He believes you.
TheChilliGod 02-18-06, 03:43 AM	"*Bursts into store like a madman* Ohmygodsohmygodsohmygodsohmygods!!!" "What is it, what's wrong?" "One of my adventuring companions ate this blueberry given to him by a stranger by a shady character loitering beside the inn, right? And the blueberry suddenly turned him into a... a... *Looks scared*" "A... what?" "A Dragon. So basically there's a silver dragon in the town square, and right now he's accepting portraits of him with other people. I'm just so hyped up about this whole thing that I just had to burst into every store down this street and tell everyone about it, so they could see the dragon for real." "Wow, I got to see this! Thanks! *Exits store, leaving it unattended*" "You're welcome. *Eyes the bag* Yoink."
OneSidedDice 02-18-06, 03:48 AM	The shopkeeper knows the bag was stolen, right? Presumably that's why he paid a cheap price to get the bag and its contents. Walk into the shop disguised as whatever sort of law enforcement official is appropriate to the area and inform the shopkeeper that he has purchased a bag stolen from a member of the royal family (or other appropriate governing body), as indicated by {insert appropriate physical feature here}. Inform the shopkeeper that you know he was probably tricked into purchasing the bag by the thief, so if he will turn over the bag and the name and description of the man who sold it to him, the crown will not further investigate his role in this incident. With +37 Bluff and your obvious knowledge of the bag and its contents, you will easily be able to pull this off.
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 04:41 AM	You're Drow. Murder him and take it, along with anything else you want. You're a Bard, so you can cast Silence so that you will not be caught. He didn't take the silence spell. Ouch, but good idea to work on. Using Bluff, grab the bag and leave. When he starts to question you, inform him that you did not, in fact, just try to win the Worst Thief EVER award and that you are merely taking your perfectly mundane bag home with you. He believes you. That actually just might work. But the DM is very imaginative, so he would think his way out of it if it was that cheezy and not so well thought out (he rewards the effort, I guess). Using Bluff, inform him that you can prove that the bag was stolen, that selling stolen property is against the law, and that you happen to be the nephew of whichever person is in charge of prosecuting those who break the law. He believes you. That one might do it. I know the bard and the DM may argue on it a little and without alot of experiance the bard may just lose vs another well thought out arguement the DM may have. But this is a solid foundation or just plain idea on it's own. "*Bursts into store like a madman* Ohmygodsohmygodsohmygodsohmygods!!!" "What is it, what's wrong?" "One of my adventuring companions ate this blueberry given to him by a stranger by a shady character loitering beside the inn, right? And the blueberry suddenly turned him into a... a... *Looks scared*" "A... what?" "A Dragon. So basically there's a silver dragon in the town square, and right now he's accepting portraits of him with other people. I'm just so hyped up about this whole thing that I just had to burst into every store down this street and tell everyone about it, so they could see the dragon for real." "Wow, I got to see this! Thanks! *Exits store, leaving it unattended*" "You're welcome. *Eyes the bag* Yoink." After reading this and sending it to two of the other DMs, we agreed that the shopkeeper would believe it, but not exactly feel compelled to abandon his post to see for himself. But for a moment I thought it was a good stone to step on to get to the goal. It could be played with a bit to make it very much worth the keeper's wild. The shopkeeper knows the bag was stolen, right? Presumably that's why he paid a cheap price to get the bag and its contents. Walk into the shop disguised as whatever sort of law enforcement official is appropriate to the area and inform the shopkeeper that he has purchased a bag stolen from a member of the royal family (or other appropriate governing body), as indicated by {insert appropriate physical feature here}. Inform the shopkeeper that you know he was probably tricked into purchasing the bag by the thief, so if he will turn over the bag and the name and description of the man who sold it to him, the crown will not further investigate his role in this incident. With +37 Bluff and your obvious knowledge of the bag and its contents, you will easily be able to pull this off. The DM of the game in question was on the intent of giving the keeper the +20 sense motive for this sort or any sort of lie to get the bag to be 'out there' and very hard to believe, aka the last choice in the bluff table in the PHB which gives the reciever of the lie a + to sense motive. So a +17 may not be impossible to beat, especially if the shopkeeper has max ranks in sense motive? Who knows, that's just my take on it, though. This one may just very well do it. I think I heard from one of the players, though, that this one particular area doesn't have a 'king' or whatnot. If I remember correctly, it was greatdale. The bard just arrived in town, did a gather on the adventurers, found they were all persuing some monsters somewhere (about four or so parties) and did a "locate" on the bag stolen in question. Unless Greatdale has some sort of lord or high family, i'm not sure how to work that, but it is very solid sounding. It's very possible that there may not be something of royalty here.
OneSidedDice 02-18-06, 02:55 PM	To me, it honestly sounds like the DM does not understand the rules for Bluff checks and is inflicting unreasonable penalties on the player to prevent him from securing the return of his bag. There are several reasons I believe the idea I proposed to you should work: a) It is plausible; the shopkeeper probably has a pretty good idea the bag was stolen because he paid for it on the cheap; b) The player will have very intimate knowledge of the shape, size, contents, etc. of the bag, so will be able to represent himself as a law enforcement officer who has tracked down the bag with information from the "rightful owner"; and c) it is not at all unreasonable to imagine that the appropriate law enforcement agencies would be sent out to retrieve the possessions of a noble. If I were DMing, I would give the player a bonus on his Bluff check for something like this. The example cited in the PHB for a +20 circumstance bonus to the Sense Motive check is something like a halfling attempting to claim he is a lamia to convince someone to trust him. The two circumstances are definitely not equivalent. I could see giving the shopkeeper a bonus on his Sense Motive check, but certainly not +20. +5 or +10, maybe, but not +20. So, I would encourage you to consult with your DMs who should consult with the DM in question and advise him to reconsider how he treats Bluffing. With that said... You should easily be able to modify the story from "member of the royal family" to "member of local wealthy house". Just set the bard to gathering information about the most powerful family around, then use the disguise self spell to emulate the garb of one of the guards in service to that house.
interpretivechaos 02-18-06, 05:06 PM	1)Bluff fortunately is an awesome substitute for intimidate and diplomacy. Case in point- "Excuse me sir, but I'm mildly curious as to the plan gotten from stealing my bag. Curious enough that I refrained from chasing down the thief not wanting to risk a feint to leave my hoard open for those who do not respect the wealth of a dragon. Yet, there were no other thieves lying in wait, and the only thing you are doing with with my bag is selling it in a market. My question is whether this is a cleverly staged suicide, or whether you did not realize that a dragon would chase down whoever possesed part of it's hoard and exact an.... acidic vengeance..." Now- when confronted by what you believe to be a black dragon who is accusing you of stealing something you didn't, the intelligent thing to do is to give him the object you paid for, and rat on whoever you bought it from. The Storekeeper has no idea as to whether it belonged to a dragon. and of course... "An excellent decision sir. A pity you are still guilty of associating with thieves..." you glance around with a confident smirk. "Though I believe that I may let you off with a warning- and a... fine" With that you take whatever you fancy from his shelf. 2) Take the bag of holding and continue shopping. Walk up to the storekeeper and whisper to him "Sir, the man behind the shelf over their who is slipping goods into his pocket..." Then as he goes behind the shelf have your compatriot or a hired boy of some sort to yell out "Master Qarath, Master Qarath- the Maajin Al'Raq have found us, come quick" Run out of the store with the bag. Finally less entertaining, but probably with the best chance of sucess and no suspicion of wrong doing by the cleric. 3)You walk up to the storekeeper and in quiet but firm voice talk to him "Excuse me sir... I am Inspector D'Avignon. I'm investigating a crime ring and thankfully in a way it seems you have become involved... don't worry, I'm sure it's completely unintentional on your part. You see... I planted this bag with the intent of it getting stolen and finding where it was. Unfortunately I couldn't have it scried upon while it was in the possesion of the thief, but once I could scry on it again I found it here. So now I need your help to see who you got it from, so I can trace it back to who they got it from and nab the thief. <have a long discussion on who he got it from, grilling him for all the details to extract a horrible and bloody vengeance for stealing from you on the thief> "Thank you very much." then almost as an afterthought. "Since this is my property to begin with, I suppose I should take this." pause a split second "Don't worry, once we track him down you will join the crowd in receiving recompense from the thieves- which thanks to your help we are one step closer to finding.... Or do you have anything else to add?" you add raising your eyebrows. "I suppose as much as the King's subjects desire justice, occasionally their just recompense to them does give a tad more incentive..." he comment chuckling.... Though granted I would stick with the Dragon one just because it's a heck lot more fun but....
RK)13 02-18-06, 05:31 PM	casually walk into the store, look at the shopkeeper, and say "Oh, you must not have heard about the town meeting." When the shopkeep says something about "what town meeting" say somethign to the effect that the local authorities are increasing the property taxes on all businesses within the community. You just saw the notice posted on the town's messageboard. Its okay though, he must be doing so well that he needn't worry about a huge increase in shop taxes in town, yadda yadda yadda. Be sure to tell the same story to all the shopkeepers up and down the street. After he rushes off, break in and grab the bag.
Sikyanakotik 02-18-06, 06:47 PM	Well, are you a good drow or a bad drow? Good Drow: "Sir, have I got a deal for you!" Shopkeeper: "What're ya yammerin' on about?" GD: "Only the greatest magical find of the century, my good man! I hold in my hand an item of such power it will make you weep with joy!" S: "What, you mean that rock?" GD: "This is not just any rock, my friend. This is one of the fabled -- nay, legendary -- Eternal Sun Seeds of Pelor! Certified by the temple itself!" S: "What makes you so sure it ain't just a piece of stone?" GD: "Why, you need only feel the eternal radience it gives off! Feels like a warm summer's day, doesn't it. Of course, only the purest of heart can recognise it for what it truly is. I trust you feel it too." S: "Uh... yes? So what's this... Sun Seed thingie do?" GD: "What does it do? What does it do? Why friend, you're looking at the single most concentrated source of mana the world has ever seen! This baby's been steeped in the essence of the sun itself. With the right rituals, you could attain power to rival the gods!" S: "Is that so. Well, why haven't you used the thing yourself?" GD: "Alas, my knowledge of the arcane arts is limited. It would take a dedicated wizard who has studied for many decades, who has had a lifetime of experience and enough gold to finance a small kingdom, to even begin to unlock the mysteries of this item. I'd find a buyer myself, but I am a modest man. And as I am -- let's not deny it -- a dark elf, I do not wish to attract too much attention to myself. I ask for no more than 10,000 gold peices in exchange. " S: Bluffed. "Well, you drive a hard bargain, but I accept your offer." GD: "Great!" Proceeds to count the money. "By the way how much is that Bag of Holding over there worth?" S: Staring in awe at the rock. "Oh? That... yeah, 10,000 gold." GD: "Sold!" :D --- Bad Drow: "Lie down and close your eyes." Shopkeeper: "Uh, why?" BD: "I just want to check something." S: Bluffed. "Okay." BD: Slits shopkeeper's throat. Coup de grace. :devil:
DoomDuck 02-18-06, 06:56 PM	I suppose the best Bluff in this kind of situation is one where you make the shopkeeper think he's coming out ahead, so... Dressed in something rather expensive, but travel-worn (just because, I don't think it makes a difference, really *grin*), go into the shop, browse the wares and stop in particular on the bag. Look at it with great interest, with various puncutated "hmms." Then go up to the shopkeeper and tell him, "Sir, I hate to be a bother but I believe you've made a mistake with this bag. You're selling it at XX GP, which is a grave mistake. I'm a renowned traveler and a collector of odd knowledge, and I can guarantee you that this bag can hold significantly more than an average bag of holding and is worth at LEAST twice as much. (Optionally here, make a random Bardic knowledge check about a random place, and point out how you were "Just visiting X where, did you know, *whatever the knowledge check came up with*.") Now, seeing as you have it marked at such a low price, I felt obliged to buy it, but I couldn't swindle an honest merchant like yourself." At this point, you pull out a bag of coppers, rocks, and a layer of gold pieces on the top (optionally, throw on a basic illusion to make it even more appealing), and lie through your teeth, "I'd like to pay you half-again your price (open the bag and show the gold pieces) to purchase the bag." If the merchant haggles and says it was a mistake, he MEANT to sell it at twice the value, and couldn't think of parting with it for less, you act put out, grumble a little and pull out an identical bag of rocks/coppers/etc. "Fine, though I think you're punishing a good deed, which I've found to be the mark of a greedy man. Good day." Take the bag, pay about 100 GP total in coins, and as soon as you're outside, run quickly, drop your current disguise, and put up another one with a different appearance. 1) He believes he's come out ahead, believing he's made twice as much money as he would have originally, making the Bluff more effective. 2) He's too distracted to check the bags, probably, since his eyes're probably wide and he's shocked. Even if he does check, the illusion should hold without a thorough investigation (which would be unlikely, since you just came up and offered to pay him MORE. Why would he check your money?) ~DD
Ikeren 02-18-06, 07:46 PM	You have a +37 to bluff and the DM won't let you get the bag? Get a zone of truth. Willingly fail your will save. 1) That bag is mine. Zone of Truth Confirms. 2) I will go to the local authorities if you do not turn the bag over. Zone of Truth Confirms. 3) The local authorities will be angry with you for possessing stolen goods. Zone of Truth Confirms. 4) If you do not return the bag to its rightful owner (me), I will kill you. Zone of Truth Confirms. 5) I will pay you what you payed for the bag, just to make this fair and even. You don't lose out at all. Zone of Truth Confirms. Kill him: If you are good, he is a greedy, unlawful thief. If you are evil, he stole something that is yours. Just get the bag turned over.
DaMullet 02-18-06, 08:07 PM	+37? Even if the shopkeep has a +20, (which is unfair, to boot), he needs an 18 to beat your roll of 1. Somehow, no matter what you say, I would assume you get your bag.
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 09:49 PM	casually walk into the store, look at the shopkeeper, and say "Oh, you must not have heard about the town meeting." When the shopkeep says something about "what town meeting" say somethign to the effect that the local authorities are increasing the property taxes on all businesses within the community. You just saw the notice posted on the town's messageboard. Its okay though, he must be doing so well that he needn't worry about a huge increase in shop taxes in town, yadda yadda yadda. Be sure to tell the same story to all the shopkeepers up and down the street. After he rushes off, break in and grab the bag. The DM would likely not want to let it be that easy, or it can be abused by all the players for all future games.
uneasyspider 02-18-06, 09:52 PM	Well, are you a good drow or a bad drow? Good Drow: "Sir, have I got a deal for you!" Shopkeeper: "What're ya yammerin' on about?" GD: "Only the greatest magical find of the century, my good man! I hold in my hand an item of such power it will make you weep with joy!" S: "What, you mean that rock?" GD: "This is not just any rock, my friend. This is one of the fabled -- nay, legendary -- Eternal Sun Seeds of Pelor! Certified by the temple itself!" S: "What makes you so sure it ain't just a piece of stone?" GD: "Why, you need only feel the eternal radience it gives off! Feels like a warm summer's day, doesn't it. Of course, only the purest of heart can recognise it for what it truly is. I trust you feel it too." S: "Uh... yes? So what's this... Sun Seed thingie do?" GD: "What does it do? What does it do? Why friend, you're looking at the single most concentrated source of mana the world has ever seen! This baby's been steeped in the essence of the sun itself. With the right rituals, you could attain power to rival the gods!" S: "Is that so. Well, why haven't you used the thing yourself?" GD: "Alas, my knowledge of the arcane arts is limited. It would take a dedicated wizard who has studied for many decades, who has had a lifetime of experience and enough gold to finance a small kingdom, to even begin to unlock the mysteries of this item. I'd find a buyer myself, but I am a modest man. And as I am -- let's not deny it -- a dark elf, I do not wish to attract too much attention to myself. I ask for no more than 10,000 gold peices in exchange. " S: Bluffed. "Well, you drive a hard bargain, but I accept your offer." GD: "Great!" Proceeds to count the money. "By the way how much is that Bag of Holding over there worth?" S: Staring in awe at the rock. "Oh? That... yeah, 10,000 gold." GD: "Sold!" :D --- Bad Drow: "Lie down and close your eyes." Shopkeeper: "Uh, why?" BD: "I just want to check something." S: Bluffed. "Okay." BD: Slits shopkeeper's throat. Coup de grace. :devil: Evil drow, but I doubt any shopkeeper may do that, heh.. or im sure hte DM would stick bystanders heh. I suppose the best Bluff in this kind of situation is one where you make the shopkeeper think he's coming out ahead, so... Dressed in something rather expensive, but travel-worn (just because, I don't think it makes a difference, really *grin*), go into the shop, browse the wares and stop in particular on the bag. Look at it with great interest, with various puncutated "hmms." Then go up to the shopkeeper and tell him, "Sir, I hate to be a bother but I believe you've made a mistake with this bag. You're selling it at XX GP, which is a grave mistake. I'm a renowned traveler and a collector of odd knowledge, and I can guarantee you that this bag can hold significantly more than an average bag of holding and is worth at LEAST twice as much. (Optionally here, make a random Bardic knowledge check about a random place, and point out how you were "Just visiting X where, did you know, *whatever the knowledge check came up with*.") Now, seeing as you have it marked at such a low price, I felt obliged to buy it, but I couldn't swindle an honest merchant like yourself." At this point, you pull out a bag of coppers, rocks, and a layer of gold pieces on the top (optionally, throw on a basic illusion to make it even more appealing), and lie through your teeth, "I'd like to pay you half-again your price (open the bag and show the gold pieces) to purchase the bag." If the merchant haggles and says it was a mistake, he MEANT to sell it at twice the value, and couldn't think of parting with it for less, you act put out, grumble a little and pull out an identical bag of rocks/coppers/etc. "Fine, though I think you're punishing a good deed, which I've found to be the mark of a greedy man. Good day." Take the bag, pay about 100 GP total in coins, and as soon as you're outside, run quickly, drop your current disguise, and put up another one with a different appearance. 1) He believes he's come out ahead, believing he's made twice as much money as he would have originally, making the Bluff more effective. 2) He's too distracted to check the bags, probably, since his eyes're probably wide and he's shocked. Even if he does check, the illusion should hold without a thorough investigation (which would be unlikely, since you just came up and offered to pay him MORE. Why would he check your money?) ~DD This one sounds wonderful, but the character only has maybe 30 gold on hand from performances, as the rest was originally in the bag when stolen. You have a +37 to bluff and the DM won't let you get the bag? Get a zone of truth. Willingly fail your will save. 1) That bag is mine. Zone of Truth Confirms. 2) I will go to the local authorities if you do not turn the bag over. Zone of Truth Confirms. 3) The local authorities will be angry with you for possessing stolen goods. Zone of Truth Confirms. 4) If you do not return the bag to its rightful owner (me), I will kill you. Zone of Truth Confirms. 5) I will pay you what you payed for the bag, just to make this fair and even. You don't lose out at all. Zone of Truth Confirms. Kill him: If you are good, he is a greedy, unlawful thief. If you are evil, he stole something that is yours. Just get the bag turned over. That seems too open ended, but i can get back to it.
JadeSpider9643 02-18-06, 11:01 PM	"Inform" the shopkeeper that you have kidnapped his family, and that if he wants to see them again in this life, that he will return your property and give you the name of the party that sold it to him. Tell him that if he asks for proof of life or gives you anything less than absolute cooperation then less than 100% of his family will be returned to him. At this point make a chopping gesture at your own wrist.
Rhomphaia 02-18-06, 11:08 PM	I know you asked for some advice from players, and and I am a player, but I am also a DM, and it is as a DM that I am going to give you some brutally honest advice. Forget about the bag. It's gone and all the contents are as well. The following quote, if true, tells me that much. ...The DM of the game in question was on the intent of giving the keeper the +20 sense motive for this sort or any sort of lie to get the bag to be 'out there' and very hard to believe... emphasis mine Okay, now the lie in question was one concerning a nobleman's family guard out to get some property back. I am sorry, but this is a very believable lie in most commoner's eyes. You just simply do not **** with the nobility. Period. The only exception for this guy would be if the merchant guilds were exceptionally more powerful than the nobility. I think this DM has pretty much pulled the old 'The PCs have something I don't want them to have, so I will just have someone steal it' trick. This is an old, lame trick and it sucks. Even if this isn't the case, the DM really needs to re-think how he runs encounters. The shopkeeper should instead have ranks in Sense Motive (especially if he regularly deals with thieves) but I really do not think bonuses in Sense Motive are in order at all if you come up with a story that is even halfway believable. Most of these lies are pretty believable, and warrant no bonus to either the Bluff or Sense motive checks. I have only seen two that warrant a bonus to a Sense Motive check, and that is the one dealing with the magic rock and the friend that got turned into a dragon. All the others are pretty well and good and believable. Either way, this DM needs a good smack. If he is genuinely misunderstanding the rules, a light slap with the PHB (preferably open to page 67 or 81) to get him to pay attention should do the trick. Use a hammergun if no matter what you try, you still can't get the bag. Okay, now that the little rant is over...You did ask for a good lie. Try this one on for size. Use whatever disguise spell you have to change into a youngish girl, probably about 15-18. Walk into the store, like you just wandered in, and pretend to just look around, as if taking a great interest in the things there, but just as curiosities. Play up the naieve girl angle. Let your eyes fall onto the bag, then look shocked. Step back a couple of paces, putting your hands on your mouth and getting tears in your eyes. Keep your eyes focused on the bag. Look for the shopkeep's reaction. If he seems genuinely concerned, then you have him hooked. If not, come up with another plan. Run from the store either way in a fit of tears. If the shopkeep did look genuinely concerned, return an hour or so later in some form other than your normal drow form. Someone of the same race and age (pose as a brother or boyfriend or somesuch) is good. The same race as the girl might be good. Walk in and start looking around, very business like and terse. Once the shopkeeper asks what you want, ask if there was a girl in there earlier. If he says yes, then you got him. Get into a brief conversation about how she acted and what she did. Ask also to see the bag. Look it over, examine it and nod your head. If the shopkeeper asks what is wrong, tell him that the girl was close to her grandfather, an adventurer of some repute but no real fame. The girl was very close and when her grandfather died, his valuable possessions were parceled out and sold to fullfill the greed of her parents. She managed to hold onto the bag for almost ten years now until her parents found it, took it and sold it to some street urchin. When she saw it in this shop after she thought she lost it, she was overcome with emotion and that is why she ran. Sigh and count out the coins you do have and shake your head. Tell him you'd like to buy it back from him, but you don't have enough. Also tell him that you aren't going to try and swindle him out of it or anything. He would like to get the bag back for poor little Mora, but he just doesn't have the money to do so. Plus there is no real way to prove the bag belonged to her family, and that possession is 9/10 of the law, then proceed to start walking out. If you have appealed to his sensitivities well enough, he should just hand over the bag, no questions asked. On the other hand, you could always just cast Suggestion and word your suggestion something like "That bag there belongs to me and you know that. Please give me back my property." Of course, what I said before still applies. If the DM doesn't want you to have the bag, you aren't getting it back.
Archmage_Vall 02-19-06, 12:12 AM	If you want to be really evil: Walk into the shop. Cast Darkness. Cast Silence. Kill shopkeeper and everyone else in the shop, if any. Take the bag, and fill it up with the rest of the stuff in the shop (just not other bags of holding or portable holes). Make a bluff check-- "Oops." Raise shopkeeper's corpse as an undead skeletal minion.
DerHauptman 02-19-06, 12:59 AM	Honestly, if your DM won't go for any of these he has put you on the cho cho train my freind. You are probly not gonna get off at the next stop either! DerHauptman - Out!
ShadowDragon8685 02-19-06, 01:03 AM	Yeah, sounds like the DM's being an ass. That said, the PC is Evil, and Evil PCs deserve everything they get. So I shall not lend my creativity to this endeavor, and I hope the shopkeeper has a +40 mod on his Sense Motive, then summons Ifreeti to kill the bard.
Tristan 02-19-06, 02:43 AM	Drow:"Oh my god! Whats THAT!!!"while pointing behind storekeep Storekeep:Turns around Drow: Stab
uneasyspider 02-19-06, 05:55 AM	I know you asked for some advice from players, and and I am a player, but I am also a DM, and it is as a DM that I am going to give you some brutally honest advice. Forget about the bag. It's gone and all the contents are as well. The following quote, if true, tells me that much. emphasis mine Okay, now the lie in question was one concerning a nobleman's family guard out to get some property back. I am sorry, but this is a very believable lie in most commoner's eyes. You just simply do not **** with the nobility. Period. The only exception for this guy would be if the merchant guilds were exceptionally more powerful than the nobility. I think this DM has pretty much pulled the old 'The PCs have something I don't want them to have, so I will just have someone steal it' trick. This is an old, lame trick and it sucks. Even if this isn't the case, the DM really needs to re-think how he runs encounters. The shopkeeper should instead have ranks in Sense Motive (especially if he regularly deals with thieves) but I really do not think bonuses in Sense Motive are in order at all if you come up with a story that is even halfway believable. Most of these lies are pretty believable, and warrant no bonus to either the Bluff or Sense motive checks. I have only seen two that warrant a bonus to a Sense Motive check, and that is the one dealing with the magic rock and the friend that got turned into a dragon. All the others are pretty well and good and believable. Either way, this DM needs a good smack. If he is genuinely misunderstanding the rules, a light slap with the PHB (preferably open to page 67 or 81) to get him to pay attention should do the trick. Use a hammergun if no matter what you try, you still can't get the bag. Okay, now that the little rant is over...You did ask for a good lie. Try this one on for size. Use whatever disguise spell you have to change into a youngish girl, probably about 15-18. Walk into the store, like you just wandered in, and pretend to just look around, as if taking a great interest in the things there, but just as curiosities. Play up the naieve girl angle. Let your eyes fall onto the bag, then look shocked. Step back a couple of paces, putting your hands on your mouth and getting tears in your eyes. Keep your eyes focused on the bag. Look for the shopkeep's reaction. If he seems genuinely concerned, then you have him hooked. If not, come up with another plan. Run from the store either way in a fit of tears. If the shopkeep did look genuinely concerned, return an hour or so later in some form other than your normal drow form. Someone of the same race and age (pose as a brother or boyfriend or somesuch) is good. The same race as the girl might be good. Walk in and start looking around, very business like and terse. Once the shopkeeper asks what you want, ask if there was a girl in there earlier. If he says yes, then you got him. Get into a brief conversation about how she acted and what she did. Ask also to see the bag. Look it over, examine it and nod your head. If the shopkeeper asks what is wrong, tell him that the girl was close to her grandfather, an adventurer of some repute but no real fame. The girl was very close and when her grandfather died, his valuable possessions were parceled out and sold to fullfill the greed of her parents. She managed to hold onto the bag for almost ten years now until her parents found it, took it and sold it to some street urchin. When she saw it in this shop after she thought she lost it, she was overcome with emotion and that is why she ran. Sigh and count out the coins you do have and shake your head. Tell him you'd like to buy it back from him, but you don't have enough. Also tell him that you aren't going to try and swindle him out of it or anything. He would like to get the bag back for poor little Mora, but he just doesn't have the money to do so. Plus there is no real way to prove the bag belonged to her family, and that possession is 9/10 of the law, then proceed to start walking out. If you have appealed to his sensitivities well enough, he should just hand over the bag, no questions asked. On the other hand, you could always just cast Suggestion and word your suggestion something like "That bag there belongs to me and you know that. Please give me back my property." Of course, what I said before still applies. If the DM doesn't want you to have the bag, you aren't getting it back. Very good one, but actually, and you might laugh, another player was the thief! This was a game where the DM said neutral or evil characters only, and the player decided not to compete against all the evil and just make a purely party support marshall/bard ghastalt (speeling is awful sorry) to help everyone. In his first session 'meeting' the party the character lost all his possessions to the evil rogue. So we, as fellow players and DMs, heard this and tried to help the player out since he's our friend with this thread, outside the game's DM's knowledge. And yes, the character is evil, but only becuase he's a drow, he hasn't actually done anyhting truely evil, yet.
uneasyspider 02-19-06, 06:00 AM	If you want to be really evil: Walk into the shop. Cast Darkness. Cast Silence. Kill shopkeeper and everyone else in the shop, if any. Take the bag, and fill it up with the rest of the stuff in the shop (just not other bags of holding or portable holes). Make a bluff check-- "Oops." Raise shopkeeper's corpse as an undead skeletal minion. No silence spell as known spells, but darkness is a drow Spell-like, so it was actually a consideration! and still likely something to do. Honestly, if your DM won't go for any of these he has put you on the cho cho train my freind. You are probly not gonna get off at the next stop either! DerHauptman - Out! Well the DM is generally a tight-a** anyways, so we as players have been used to these types of puzzles. He defends every situation and NPC in his games like they were personal representations of himself.
Vaelan 02-19-06, 07:26 AM	He didn't take the silence spell. Then he deserves to get caught, tortured, and hanged. Silence is THE second-level Bard spell.
Otto the Bugbear 02-19-06, 08:02 AM	With the little information you've provided about the DM, I see very few courses of action. (By saying "you", I'm talking about the player of the bard.) 1. Ignore the bag and all your stuff that got stolen. Play a drow bard with NOTHING. If your character dies, bring in another character with NOTHING. Not Vow of Poverty, just own nothing. Make sure you have about 15 characters for each game session. When the DM complains/asks, tell him that you tried to have stuff, but he was unreasonably working against you. 2. If you know the rogue stole all your stuff, kill him. Then take his stuff. 3. Grind the game to a halt. Let nothing else go forward until you manange to get your stuff back. No adventures, no plot, no more treasure acquistion, no more exp. This works even better if some other members of the group help you out. 4. With a bluff modifier that high, and being a bard, just start spreading nasty, vile, evil rumors about both the rogue and shop-keep. Don't even try to get the bag back. Rhomphaia is right about the DM never letting you get it back. Instead, use the power of the bard and make life for both the rogue and the shop-keep unbearable. Don't go overboard, just start some possibly believeable rumors about both of them. That makes your +37 even harder to resist. I can't go into detail -- after all, this board does have a CoC. :devil: I'm sorry that being an ass is the only avenue I can see here. I've been in games, briefly, with DMs like this. A +37 v. some random shop-keep isn't even a contest. Here's how you should have started the thread, "Here's the challenge. The DM is an ass who doesn't want the bard to succeed." Then the rest of your thread. Granted, you wouldn't have many responses that way, but meh. Alright, one constructive idea. 5. If you're high enough level, fascinate and suggestion. Cheers Otto :)
Rhomphaia 02-19-06, 10:37 AM	I know I am going to get flamed for this, but based on what I have seen, this DM has a nice, big hammergun comming. A hammergun with a laser sight and dead-blow head. If my assumption is correct, then this DM is bound and determined to not let the character get his stuff back, and nothing will get that bag back, and no form of retaliation will work. He is DM and unfortunately, Rule 0 is his to abuse in this case. He more than likely will. Take for example some of the above suggestions for retaliation... 1. Ignore the bag and all your stuff that got stolen. Play a drow bard with NOTHING. If your character dies, bring in another character with NOTHING. Not Vow of Poverty, just own nothing. Make sure you have about 15 characters for each game session. When the DM complains/asks, tell him that you tried to have stuff, but he was unreasonably working against you. The big problem here is that the DM can still be an ass and veto every single character and thus shut the player out of the game, or simply not bring up an opportunity for the character to join. 2. If you know the rogue stole all your stuff, kill him. Then take his stuff. I can see this one. Bard and rogue duke it out in whatever fashion, then just as the bard achieves victory, the town guards appear and confiscate the rogue's body and all of his stuff. 3. Grind the game to a halt. Let nothing else go forward until you manange to get your stuff back. No adventures, no plot, no more treasure acquistion, no more exp. This works even better if some other members of the group help you out. All this will accomplish is the other players getting mad at you. Essentially, you would be blackmailing the other players into helping you get your bag back, even if they are initially interested in doing so. Repeated frustrated efforts will quickly turn them against you. Also, in the alternative, the DM can just have the bag disappear, get sold, or whatever. He can also abuse Rule 0 some more and just say that your Locate Object will no longer work. 4. With a bluff modifier that high, and being a bard, just start spreading nasty, vile, evil rumors about both the rogue and shop-keep. Don't even try to get the bag back. Rhomphaia is right about the DM never letting you get it back. Instead, use the power of the bard and make life for both the rogue and the shop-keep unbearable. Don't go overboard, just start some possibly believeable rumors about both of them. That makes your +37 even harder to resist. I can't go into detail -- after all, this board does have a CoC. :devil: Again, the DM can just say the townsfolk don't believe the bard. This DM is basically railroading the bard out of a lot of gear. First he says no good alignments for PCs, then he allows one PC to steal from another and profit from it to the detriment of the other PC and gives no recourse to regain the lost wealth. Again, I strongly recommend a hammergun here. A nice big one. I can honestly see any of the above happening for any sort of retalliation, but then again, those are small potatoes. I don't say this often, but I will say it now. This is one DM who needs to be taught a lesson. The following is a modified version of something I did in a group when the DM seemed to be against me and favoring another player. Disclaimer- Only use the following in EXTREME circumstances. It will basically get you uninvited to the group. The only way you can really send this DM a message in any way that works is to play your role as a bard. Ingrain yourself as the central character in a roleplay-heavy plot. Then, during a critical time in the session, such as during a negotiation, use Player Rule 0. Don't play. Walk out on his game. When he asks, just look at everyone (especially the player of the thief) and mention the business about the bag of holding. Then don't look back. Now this will likely get everyone ****** at you, but unless they are brainwashed by the DM (and yes, I have seen it happen) they will be more ****** at the DM. Their session is now basically over and they will be leering at the DM for it, and studying him very closely to look for signs of screwing them over because he can't do anything to you. The DM can only sit there and seethe because he has basically had his ass handed to him and he can't do anything about it. Anyway, this has inspired a rant...I am gonna go drop that off in the DM's board.
Balor von Balorvitch 02-19-06, 02:58 PM	Does it really matter if the Dm is an ass? There have been some awesome ideas for a great bluff! I will try some of these someday. Heres mine Buy a bag that is exactly the same as the bag of holding then say "Look a distraction!" then switch the bags in the confusion! :D
Secrets Untold 02-19-06, 04:59 PM	+37 to bluff. The DMG says that a 40 is tracking a goblin that walked making sure to leave no tracks a week ago and there was a snowstorm yesterday. +37 is an automatic win for you. With a level 10 rogue, I suceeded on a check to steal the DM's right to DM for this session. I had a +17 and rolled a natural 20. With a total equal to your modifier, I succeded in stesling something that doesn't exist, but you can't get a bag back? That's just screwed up.
uneasyspider 02-20-06, 02:31 AM	I'm thinking over the suggestion idea carefully. Yes, this bard can suggest. But one or two sentences of what? It seems likely to be very solid and true that the player may never get his items back, but we will take the best likely idea here and take it to run and have drow bard run it by the DM without using alot of time and if it fails waste little time in irritating the DM further and suggest he take it up with the rogue. The player rule 0 idea was priceless. I think we all got a good laugh at that one. One day, maybe. Haha. I will say this much about the DM, FYI, it's not so much that he's an ass, but he is tough and hard on exploits on NPCs, especially shopkeepers who basically hold the keys to much gold and magic items. He is, though, impressed by well thought out plans of actions that may include 3x5 cards to be read from which say step by step what the player does (he's specifically said that, since he's done that in the Living Force games). You're absolutely right about the +37 modifier, fyi, the problem is that he might slap a +20 on the sense motive of the NPC for losing a bag he paid for being 'putting him in alot of danger' and so on and then give a bunch of ranks in SM and make it even, more or less.