Challenge rating / Encounter Level Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge rating / Encounter Level Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crash169
10-05-05, 02:17 PM Ok, so in a recent quest we were forced to face a CR9 two CR4's and a CR5.
I was wondering what the Encounter Level would be for a fight like this?

The monsters were a DM's creation.. and I have no clue if he included Monster Templates to the CR's.

Our party consists of 2 level 8's and 2 level 7's. An average level of 7.5. I have reason to beleive that we were overmatched. Anyone else think so?
Turin
10-05-05, 02:26 PM Your effective party level is 7.5 and I calculate the encounter to an EL10.4. This rates as an "extremely difficult" encounter in my book. Still, 3 of the monsters involved were well below your APL, so my guess this is a fairly winnable EL10.4 unless the CR9 monster was really tough for its CR (like a dragon). If I was DM'ing this, I would make sure that the party was fully rested and probably had an opportunity to know what they faced before springing this on them.

That being said, with the monsters being the DM's creation, this could be tricky... especially if he hadn't actually play-tested the monsters out. Go ahead and tell us the story, Crash, maybe we can give you some advice/comments.
q'afuu
10-05-05, 02:28 PM The monsters were a DM's creation.. and I have no clue if he included Monster Templates to the CR's. So how do you know the CRs to begin with?

For what it's worth, the encounter was about a 10 EL.
Crash169
10-05-05, 02:45 PM Your effective party level is 7.5 and I calculate the encounter to an EL10.4. This rates as an "extremely difficult" encounter in my book. Still, 3 of the monsters involved were well below your APL, so my guess this is a fairly winnable EL10.4 unless the CR9 monster was really tough for its CR (like a dragon). If I was DM'ing this, I would make sure that the party was fully rested and probably had an opportunity to know what they faced before springing this on them.

That being said, with the monsters being the DM's creation, this could be tricky... especially if he hadn't actually play-tested the monsters out. Go ahead and tell us the story, Crash, maybe we can give you some advice/comments.

Well, we didn't really et to prepare much before the fight.. because we didn't know that the fight was coming.. Although when we first entered the tunnel some Ethereal creatures appeared and offered us Treasure if we go and find the Heart of Kimara other than the head. I don't want to get into the whole quest right now, but I think that was the door to safety, that was our chance. But there is another thing you have to know, he kind of forced us into this quest..

I'm a kensai in the campaign, and one of my Mentors was scolding me for not doing a good job, and well.. forced me into the quest to go and retrieve the Head of Kimara. So my quest was to get the head, not the heart!

Anyways.. We paid no mind to the "warning" and went in.. only to die in the first fight!

From what I know, he didn't play test the monsters.. The CR 9 monster had like 32 str after bull's strength and rage. He also had an AC of around 24. Attack bonuses of +20/+15 and a hell of a lot of life. He was doing like 2d10+14 damage... it was just too much considering those 2 CR 4's had like 50 somehting life each.. We were trying to take down the big guy.. all the while the CR 5 shaman was using something that did 1d6+6+1d6 strength damage to us. We faired pretty well.. killed the 2 CR 4's and dealt a hell of a lot of damage to the Big guy, but in the end we were all dead anyways.

PS. In character we Knew the heart of Kimara was in The hands Of a Human Commander of a Monstrous Army. Surrounded by thousands of lizardmen, trolls, And there was also a Hydra among their ranks.
Turin
10-05-05, 03:07 PM That guy doesn't sound that bad for a CR9. I could probably put those numbers together with a 9th-level orc barbarian without breaking a sweat (base 18 + 4 race + 2 ability increases from level + 4 bull's stength + 4 rage = 32 Str). That's a +11 modifier, which makes his BAB a +9. Easy to build.

It sounds like that shaman was the difficulty, actually... you probably could have handled the big guy had you taken out the shaman first and tried to avoid melee using battlefield control magic. I'm a little skeptical of the spell that did d6+6 Strength damage... the only thing that sounds right for that is ray of enfeeblement, which doesn't stack with itself (it causes a penalty to strength, not strength damage).

What other characters are in your party other than the kensai? What tactics did you use in the battle? If I were in a "typical" party against this group, I'd have the mage drop a wall spell (or similar) in front of the tough guy and focus my fighter and rogue on the shaman while the cleric protected the mage and mopped up the two little guys. Then with the shaman out of the picture, you have a good chance against the tough guy.

The Heart/Head of Kimera bit sounds like your DM was giving you a hook. Maybe there was something where the Heart was that would give you the edge to recover the Head. As a kensai, you have to follow the orders of your lord, but that doesn't mean you should be bullheaded about it... finding a weapon to help your quest could have made the difference here.
Crash169
10-06-05, 11:42 AM The fight was definately win-able... It was just really damn hard. We pretty much just got into the cave when that fight happened.. I really didn't expect it to be that hard. And some of the party members didn't heal and stuff.. The druid didn't even use any buffs on us :(.

In the end I guess it was poor planning on our part. We sure as hell are going to take more caution now. Especially with Very difficult fights around every few corners.
q'afuu
10-06-05, 12:28 PM We were trying to take down the big guy... That was a mistake. ;)

Basic strategy when fighting multiple opponents: you go for the weakest (not necessarily the least powerful, but the ones that will take the least effort to eliminate) ones first, as well as for the casters. The only party members to focus on the big guys from the start are those who have a good chance of taking them out in one or two rounds (that would be the casters, provided they have a good save-or-die or something similarly lethal prepped), and it's not always a bad idea for them to help mop up the fodder first too. Adopt that tactic, and you will minimize the damage you take.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crash169 10-05-05, 02:17 PM	Ok, so in a recent quest we were forced to face a CR9 two CR4's and a CR5. I was wondering what the Encounter Level would be for a fight like this? The monsters were a DM's creation.. and I have no clue if he included Monster Templates to the CR's. Our party consists of 2 level 8's and 2 level 7's. An average level of 7.5. I have reason to beleive that we were overmatched. Anyone else think so?
Turin 10-05-05, 02:26 PM	Your effective party level is 7.5 and I calculate the encounter to an EL10.4. This rates as an "extremely difficult" encounter in my book. Still, 3 of the monsters involved were well below your APL, so my guess this is a fairly winnable EL10.4 unless the CR9 monster was really tough for its CR (like a dragon). If I was DM'ing this, I would make sure that the party was fully rested and probably had an opportunity to know what they faced before springing this on them. That being said, with the monsters being the DM's creation, this could be tricky... especially if he hadn't actually play-tested the monsters out. Go ahead and tell us the story, Crash, maybe we can give you some advice/comments.
q'afuu 10-05-05, 02:28 PM	The monsters were a DM's creation.. and I have no clue if he included Monster Templates to the CR's. So how do you know the CRs to begin with? For what it's worth, the encounter was about a 10 EL.
Crash169 10-05-05, 02:45 PM	Your effective party level is 7.5 and I calculate the encounter to an EL10.4. This rates as an "extremely difficult" encounter in my book. Still, 3 of the monsters involved were well below your APL, so my guess this is a fairly winnable EL10.4 unless the CR9 monster was really tough for its CR (like a dragon). If I was DM'ing this, I would make sure that the party was fully rested and probably had an opportunity to know what they faced before springing this on them. That being said, with the monsters being the DM's creation, this could be tricky... especially if he hadn't actually play-tested the monsters out. Go ahead and tell us the story, Crash, maybe we can give you some advice/comments. Well, we didn't really et to prepare much before the fight.. because we didn't know that the fight was coming.. Although when we first entered the tunnel some Ethereal creatures appeared and offered us Treasure if we go and find the Heart of Kimara other than the head. I don't want to get into the whole quest right now, but I think that was the door to safety, that was our chance. But there is another thing you have to know, he kind of forced us into this quest.. I'm a kensai in the campaign, and one of my Mentors was scolding me for not doing a good job, and well.. forced me into the quest to go and retrieve the Head of Kimara. So my quest was to get the head, not the heart! Anyways.. We paid no mind to the "warning" and went in.. only to die in the first fight! From what I know, he didn't play test the monsters.. The CR 9 monster had like 32 str after bull's strength and rage. He also had an AC of around 24. Attack bonuses of +20/+15 and a hell of a lot of life. He was doing like 2d10+14 damage... it was just too much considering those 2 CR 4's had like 50 somehting life each.. We were trying to take down the big guy.. all the while the CR 5 shaman was using something that did 1d6+6+1d6 strength damage to us. We faired pretty well.. killed the 2 CR 4's and dealt a hell of a lot of damage to the Big guy, but in the end we were all dead anyways. PS. In character we Knew the heart of Kimara was in The hands Of a Human Commander of a Monstrous Army. Surrounded by thousands of lizardmen, trolls, And there was also a Hydra among their ranks.
Turin 10-05-05, 03:07 PM	That guy doesn't sound that bad for a CR9. I could probably put those numbers together with a 9th-level orc barbarian without breaking a sweat (base 18 + 4 race + 2 ability increases from level + 4 bull's stength + 4 rage = 32 Str). That's a +11 modifier, which makes his BAB a +9. Easy to build. It sounds like that shaman was the difficulty, actually... you probably could have handled the big guy had you taken out the shaman first and tried to avoid melee using battlefield control magic. I'm a little skeptical of the spell that did d6+6 Strength damage... the only thing that sounds right for that is ray of enfeeblement, which doesn't stack with itself (it causes a penalty to strength, not strength damage). What other characters are in your party other than the kensai? What tactics did you use in the battle? If I were in a "typical" party against this group, I'd have the mage drop a wall spell (or similar) in front of the tough guy and focus my fighter and rogue on the shaman while the cleric protected the mage and mopped up the two little guys. Then with the shaman out of the picture, you have a good chance against the tough guy. The Heart/Head of Kimera bit sounds like your DM was giving you a hook. Maybe there was something where the Heart was that would give you the edge to recover the Head. As a kensai, you have to follow the orders of your lord, but that doesn't mean you should be bullheaded about it... finding a weapon to help your quest could have made the difference here.
Crash169 10-06-05, 11:42 AM	The fight was definately win-able... It was just really damn hard. We pretty much just got into the cave when that fight happened.. I really didn't expect it to be that hard. And some of the party members didn't heal and stuff.. The druid didn't even use any buffs on us :(. In the end I guess it was poor planning on our part. We sure as hell are going to take more caution now. Especially with Very difficult fights around every few corners.
q'afuu 10-06-05, 12:28 PM	We were trying to take down the big guy... That was a mistake. ;) Basic strategy when fighting multiple opponents: you go for the weakest (not necessarily the least powerful, but the ones that will take the least effort to eliminate) ones first, as well as for the casters. The only party members to focus on the big guys from the start are those who have a good chance of taking them out in one or two rounds (that would be the casters, provided they have a good save-or-die or something similarly lethal prepped), and it's not always a bad idea for them to help mop up the fodder first too. Adopt that tactic, and you will minimize the damage you take.