Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tytalus 03-03-04, 07:10 PM	Ok, here's the dilemma. The DM in one of my current campaigns is forcing my character down a road that I don't like. Is it the right thing to do to retire the character (as an NPC) and start a new one? I've been playing in this campaign for a while. My first character (elf cleric) died, to be replaced by a kobold druid. I basically just picked that race to show everyone that kobolds are in fact not just stupid little monsters. I had a great concept for the little guy and everyone in the group seemed to like him. For the matter of this issue it is only important that he believed to have dragon blood in him and that he was chosen to be something great. The problem occured after dealing with an ancient red dragon. The dragon conferred a special power on my little guy that is essential for the plot (to stop a demon invasion, basically). To manifest this draconic influence, the DM ruled that I'd have to take levels in a (homebrew) prestige class from now on. The PrC basically gives some attribute boni and sorcerer spell progression. I am less than happy with this for two reasons: - As a matter of principle, I dislike losing control of my characters. My PCs are the one thing I can actually create and control in the game world and I feel that it's my prerogative to choose their careers. Sure, the DM can provide options, but I hate it if he decides between them, too. - I'll be falling seriously behind in power (not advancing my druidic spellcasting, wildshaping, companion). This *is* a big deal as the DM likes to throw particularly nasty challenges at us. Note that I do not even receive the benefits from the PrC: with my CHA of 8, I can't cast any sorcerer spells at all! Other infos you might need: the campaign is quite good and I do enjoy it otherwise. I am pretty sure the DM will let me play a different PC if I demand it - I just don't want to appear unreasonable. The rest of the party are: a drow sorc2/fig3, a githyanki monk2/ranger4, a human wiz7, an elf rog5/shd2, and me (kobold druid6/dragon-something1). There's also a paladin NPC (probably level 10+) traveling with us. The question is: is it justified that I demand to retire my character and play a different one? What would you do?
Not a monkey 03-03-04, 07:16 PM	Would you perhaps be happier with the Dragon Disciple official prestige class?
ehrin 03-03-04, 07:17 PM	it's your character, you don't need to justify it to anyone. have him shapeshange and run off into the sunset, to be a happy little druid.
Dun Fe'Ran 03-03-04, 07:22 PM	it's hard to say. See, if the character is retired as an NPC, then you have the DM playing out the scenario by himself. I don't think it would even be remotely fun to chaperone DMPCs until the point where they can "win" the adventure for you. Bah, I say. But on the other hand, etiquette dictates that a DM should either ask you, or make any changes to your character a result of your direct actions. I think that the DM could AND should think up a new PrC for your char. he should know that all he's doing is neutering your character by forcing levels on you that confer no benefits. So, explain that you obviously don't want to ruin this campain for your group members, as it is a generally enjoyable campaign, but you would prefer it if the DM didn't ruin it for you. No, combat isn't everything, but it certainly takes up enough of a chunk that you don't want to have to take a walk while the other characters finish up the threats you encounter.
aka Jimmy 03-03-04, 07:33 PM	Talk to the DM. If he will not see reason and either change the PRC to druid levels or just let you stay a druid then I dont see that you have any obligation to be reasonable in return :) A DM messing with a character like that is bad form of the worst kind. If he persists in such a course of action despite calm, rational argument to the contrary he deserves whatever game-disruption you can throw at him. You just need to find a reeeaaaally permanent method of comitting suicide. Preferably commit a bunch of horrible crimes first so if he raises your character as an NPC he will be a wanted criminal.
Orcish Fury 03-03-04, 09:16 PM	It sounds like an important plot device, but it ruins your character. Try and see if you can modify the PrC to something you would actually want to play.
Eldren 03-03-04, 09:31 PM	I would recommend talking to your Dungeon Master, honestly, because it sounds like you like the character you have, but that you don't like something rather significant that's been done to it. There are only a very few rare instances where it's all right for a Dungeon Master to take control of a PC away from the player, and those instances usually involve having Domination cast on you or you being hit with Charm Person. In other words, some kind of enchantment magic that removes your will from you. I understand that your Dungeon Master thinks it's all right and cool to do something to your PC that is an important plot device, but Dungeon Masters need to realize that, ultimately, the story is rarely more important than the PCs. I had to deal with this once with a Star Wars GM who decided to put our characters in a situation where we were guaranteed to be captured, which isn't a good thing. Sure, it made for some intense storytelling, but ultimately, players should never be put in a no-win situation just because the Dungeon Master wants the story to go a certain way. This is why I'm automatically wary of Dungeon Masters who have more than about two sessions written fully out ahead of the session they're currently running. It tells me that I'm likely to be railroaded if I wind up doing something that doesn't fit with their plans. I think it's much better to have a very basic outline of the campaign's story, where the Dungeon Master knows the beginning and knows the end, and has written out some key plot points to be sprinkled amongst the 1st through 20th level progression, but otherwise leaves it up to the players to decide how their PCs accomplish the things that need to be done to advance the story. When a DM gets more hamfisted than that, things start to go awry, and they usually go to the "What's A DM To Do?" board while their players come here to the "What's A Player To Do?" board, and both parties start complaining about the other, under the mistaken impression that each party isn't then hopping over to the other forum to make sure they aren't being complained about. :rolleyes: Your Dungeon Master has done something he shouldn't have, and while you should remain respectful in doing so, you need to let him know this. Ask him if there's something that can be done so that you don't have to take a given prestige class or set of skills to still accomplish his story goal, or if there's some middle ground that restores the majority of control of your PC to you and still lets him tell his story. If not, then you might want to consider retiring the character and playing something else.
Edymnion 03-03-04, 09:31 PM	Always, always, ALWAYS talk to your DM first. I find it amazing how many people come on the boards with something along these lines where they don't agree with what the DM is doing, yet have not even mentioned the slightest bit of disconcent with the DM. But, I'm going to assume that you have already told your DM that you don't appreciate what he's done, and he refuses to compromise with you. I'd consider leaving that group, or at least not playing under that guy as a DM personally. If he has no respect for your characters, it usually means he's not the best of DMs. The world belongs to him, he can change it however he wants. The PCs are yours, you decide what they do, how they do it, and you decide how they advance. DM has no right at all to force your character to do anything you don't want them to do (unless of course they're charmed or some magic like that which completely takes them out of your control for a limited time). At the very least, he should have taken you aside and asked if you would be willing to do this. At the most, he should have custom tailored a PrC that would fit with your ability (aka it should have advanced your DRUID caster level, NOT sorcerer!) after you agreed to do this. This is all assuming that you have talked to your DM, had a little heart to heart, and he said "My way or the highway." If you haven't had this talk, you really need to go do that, because NOTHING we can say here is going to help you if you don't. If he thinks you're okay with all of this, and you suddenly have your kobold fall on his sword, you are only going to make things worse, and nothing good is going to come of that.
Gandilas 03-03-04, 11:08 PM	Hello. As a DM, I once altered the player's alignment to evil. Instead of making him an NPC, I let the player continue to run him and gave him tips/hints on how I'd like him to do things in certain situations. He ran with it and it turned out fine. Not all players would have been happy with that though...if you're not happy with "playing along", then talk to your DM.
Tytalus 03-04-04, 02:51 AM	Thanks for all the helpful comments, guys! Originally posted by Not a monkey Would you perhaps be happier with the Dragon Disciple official prestige class? Not at all. For starters, it would be illegal (as in not meeting the requirements) and it would still neuter my character in terms of not advancing my character's strengths. Other options: - Killing myself: Not really my style. I'm sure this can be worked out somehow. Plus, the character is quite unique - it would be a shame to have him die. I'd rather retire him. - Adjusting the PrC: That's tough, IMO. I'm very wary with respect to homebrew stuff, there are always balancing issues. And if I could choose how to make the PrC, it would have druidic spell progression, advanced wildshaping and advanced companion - pretty much what the druid class offers ;) But it might be worth thinking about it - Talking to the DM: Well, I've done that (briefly), that's how I know that he would probably understand retiring this PC. From what I gather he thought he'd do me a huge favor with this change (so did the rest of the group, BTW). I think I'll present my DM with the dilemma and some solutions (namely, a more druidic PrC and one or two alternate characters). That should do the trick. Thanks again, everyone.
Iry 03-04-04, 03:33 AM	I see some amusement and validity in interjecting a single level of some homebrew PrC to spice up the flavor of the campaign and slightly derail hardcore number crunching as an aside. While the DM does not have an inherent right to tread upon your intellectual property, he can limit down the options he's going to allow you to persue. Maybe you could be content with just that single oddball Prestige Level, assuming it has an ability that, in some fashion, is beneficial to the plot. Kindly inform your DM that it's cool to have that one level in the interest of the story, but please don't derail your character as a whole. Otherwise take the time to arrange for a crippling injury to the character, with the assistance of your DM, and then retire him from there. This lets him come back into the fold with a quest if it's necessary, but otherwise keeps him from tagging around as the DMPC Plothook.
Raging Halfling 03-04-04, 05:17 AM	Originally posted by Iry I see some amusement and validity in interjecting a single level of some homebrew PrC to spice up the flavor of the campaign and slightly derail hardcore number crunching as an aside. While the DM does not have an inherent right to tread upon your intellectual property, he can limit down the options he's going to allow you to persue. Maybe you could be content with just that single oddball Prestige Level, assuming it has an ability that, in some fashion, is beneficial to the plot. Did you read the original post at all? He's not talking about losing one character level, he said that he'd be forced to take levels (that's plural) in this class. A class that gives sorcerer progression, when his character has a Cha of 8. It's not just a matter of being off his original character concept, it effectively stops character progression altogether. From what I've seen here, I don't know if I would want to play with this DM. Taking control of a player's character advancement is a big no-no. If you can't control your own actions within a game, why would you even play it? In reply to the original poster, yes if you can't negotiate this with the DM, go ahead and change characters. With this kind of thing going on, it isn't really your character anyway. It seems like a terrible waste too: from what you've said, you've got a cool character concept going.
Edymnion 03-04-04, 01:39 PM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling In reply to the original poster, yes if you can't negotiate this with the DM, go ahead and change characters. With this kind of thing going on, it isn't really your character anyway. It seems like a terrible waste too: from what you've said, you've got a cool character concept going. Yup, the instant the DM said "You WILL take this PrC from now on" he essentially stole your character. Its become a DMPC that he's just letting you run for the time being.
Thornock 03-04-04, 07:05 PM	I think you should simply choose not to what has been offered. So some red dragon imbued you with magical power, it doesn't mean you have to use. Turn your back on this crusade. This will be especially rewarding if it is as crucial to the plot as you say. Make the DM work for you. God, I hate DMs
Iry 03-04-04, 11:31 PM	Chtulhu Ate My Double Post
Iry 03-04-04, 11:32 PM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling Did you read the original post at all? He's not talking about losing one character level, he said that he'd be forced to take levels (that's plural) in this class. A class that gives sorcerer progression, when his character has a Cha of 8. It's not just a matter of being off his original character concept, it effectively stops character progression altogether. You don't know me very well, but my post was reasonably percise. As of writing the origional post, the current reality is that the player has only a single level in the abberant prestige class, with only the threat of more hanging over his head. I made clear my opinion that a single level of it may not be a bad thing, instead of immediately terminating his character. (Especially if that single level has plot relevant capabilities) However, I also made it clear my opinion that he should talk to the DM in a kindly fashion to prevent further derailing of his character beyond that single level, and offered a theoretically viable option for removing his character from play and DMPC status if this could not be accomplished.
wdarkk 03-05-04, 12:52 AM	It might not be a bad thing if it wasn't useless to him. But it _is_ useless to him. It's effectively taking a level away from him for no reason, except worse since you regain levels faster than you gain them if the challenges are getting more intense to challenge the rest of the party.
Iry 03-05-04, 02:59 AM	It is mostly useless in it's current form, but given that kindly conversation it could be turned into a less-than-mostly-useless on the basis that it is plot related, that he will only EVER take one level (Else abandoning the character), and that it could be effectively rebalanced for the sake of that single level being Homebrew. I'm talking Lemonaide here, not scowling at the pile of Lemons, cause we all pretty much agree they are sour.
Garrum 03-05-04, 05:01 AM	What ability does this PrC give you that will allow you to halt demon invasion? Was there no way to just have it manifest itself at the proper time? Is there any actual reason that it could not have simply been an add on to your existing class? I see where you said that you would be forced to take these levels from now on, leaving you as a level 6 druid, going up in a class where you can't cast the spells, gaining abilities that probably don't coincide with a druid at all. You want to know if you should make another character...I say hell no. Tell your DM to leave your classes alone and drop that level of Dragon Squish and replace it with Druid. If you take a PrC, it should be because it was something you want to do. And if he says that forcing a useless PrC on you was the only way to advance the story, beat his head with a woman's shoe (strappy high heels work well), because there is something wrong with his reasoning.
Dun Fe'Ran 03-05-04, 09:48 AM	(I think) you said earlier that the DM (and other PC's) thought that this would be something that made you happy....I'm just curious WHY they thought it would be a shift that agreed with you. I'm thinking they just had the mother of al brain-farts and forgot that to cast Sorc spells you need charisma...did they just forget that? Either way the DM has to change what he's done, because ultimately it's your fun that's on the line. Just curious as to WHY anyone would think that that is an improvement...it would take 8 levels (and the 2 stat boosts) to be able to use even the 0th level spells.....you know somethign's wrong at that point. So, maybe just if that was clarified...
Naughty Druid 03-05-04, 09:59 AM	Perhaps the DM can house rule the sorcerer levels are cast off of wisdom instead of Cha. I wouls also ask if the homebrew PRC can give a level of druid as well as sorcerer. Hey, it don't hurt to ask. I do like the idea of beating him with a woman's shoe as well.
Kaylar 03-05-04, 02:05 PM	It's all about the role-playing.... The character that you play is not going to appreciate or like what is being done to him. If this is continued to be forced upon him, he has two options (from my POV) he can learn to like it and think of the positive aspects of helping the world from a demon invasion thus knowing his personal sacrifice will help the world and get possible world recognition out of it, or the other; become depressed at the fact that his world has changed and he hates it and doesn't care about anything else. He starts to get moody, often snapping at the other characters and making snap judgements and decisions, which could ultimately harm someone. Of course there are the greys in between, but this is really a great chance at role-playing, try to make something of it if possible. You really like this unique character and don't want to stop playing him, though I know you hate the path that has been forced upon you, though I would guess that if you continued to play this character, you would end up on the depressed side of things (though that's just a guess). So out of curiosity, what would happen if you did take another level of a different class other than the homebrew? Or is it somehow magically enforced upon you when you are able to level up?
aka Jimmy 03-05-04, 02:57 PM	Hey, come to think of it the solution is easy! Just pay someone to cast a spell that grants a negative level and then voluntarily fail your save. Boom! No more asstastic PRC.
eudas 03-05-04, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion At the very least, he should have taken you aside and asked if you would be willing to do this. At the most, he should have custom tailored a PrC that would fit with your ability (aka it should have advanced your DRUID caster level, NOT sorcerer!) after you agreed to do this. If I had to guess, I'd guess that the DM is running with the fact that the Kobold has a favored class of Sorcerer. eudas