Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LinusMundane 01-19-08, 09:12 PM	I chose the chaos domain as my one single domain in a homebrew world my DM concocted. The world does not have dieties in the traditional sense, your powers are gained through how you adhere to your domain. I am having trouble playing this character because the DM has expressed his beliefs on chaos to me and I think I may be in over my head. I have always played hack n slash and this is not that at all. We have tons of NPC interaction politics and problem solving to do. He expects that I will constantly be trying to disrupt order, do things to just see what happens and things of the like. Isn't this a nuisance to my party? Should I walk away from this domain(my goal was to learn how to "roleplay" and i thought the typical outlook would be boring)? How would you play a chaotic(not alignment because there are no alignments in this world) character in this setting? ***If this starts to go places we dont want it to go, I understand however I would like some input from people. Chaotic(in my eyes) in the terms of say a jester or the class clown.
Ikeman04 01-19-08, 09:19 PM	I think that his view of choas is complete bull. Alignment issues aside, if that how the DM feels about what choas is, then you'll pretty much have to go along with it.
Salla 01-19-08, 09:25 PM	Elements of chaos include: Untrustworthiness. Lie, whenever you feel like it. Big lies, little lies, stretch the truth. Irresponsibility. Break promises. Break deals. Disrespect for authority. Don't let a little thing like 'the law' get in the way of doing what needs to be done (but don't be stupid and break it for the sake of breaking it).
Prator_The_Golden 01-19-08, 10:12 PM	What your DM describes as chaotic IS technically chaotic... although I'm getting an impression of "Chaotic Stupid," rather than simply Chaotic. Talk with your DM. Try and explain to him that Chaos doesn't really have to be extreme, and that even if it does, requiring you to act that way could be a huge handicap for this campaign. If that doesn't work, look at the "Best Lines Ever" thread on this Player's board. Read all the posts by Rickiel, the Rogue Mage, and try to mimic what he does.
arwend 01-20-08, 01:24 AM	I can kinda see where the DM is coming from with those expectations. There is a difference, at least in my mind, between an average chaotic person and a cleric of the chaos domain. As a cleric, you're expected to try to be the epitome of your domain. Something to consider would be ditching the chaos domain and just having a chaotic alignment. You can still get some roleplay experience, but don't have to go off the deep end if you aren't comfortable doing so. ...This is assuming the DM's expectation isn't for all chaotic people/creatures. If it IS, well... never mind what i just said.
SquibThePirate 01-20-08, 02:45 AM	Pee on every NPC you encounter.....if that is not chaotic enough for your DM then I dunno.
kelvinaw273 01-20-08, 03:00 AM	Chaos also means creative as well as destructive. So you can walk up to people in the street and talk to them, get to know them. Suggest projects that could make life better for people. Paint an impromptu mural on the castle walls ... these are all chaotic acts as well as behaving like an a**.
LinusMundane 01-20-08, 09:15 AM	Chaos also means creative as well as destructive. So you can walk up to people in the street and talk to them, get to know them. Suggest projects that could make life better for people. Paint an impromptu mural on the castle walls ... these are all chaotic acts as well as behaving like an a**. This kinda struck me, I never looked at it like that. Thanks for the reply's guys, after sleeping on it, I have decided I really want to give it a go, whats the worst that can happen? I don't do it well and lose my magic? I don't have to be Chaos next time after all.
Evil DM Mk3 01-20-08, 09:29 AM	Be expressive, creative. Draw on walls, sing, make big and utterly implausible lies because it is more interesting than the truth (example, "What are you doing in my castle?!" "Hunting Haggis"). You don't have to be utterly insane.
Eldritch_Lord 01-20-08, 10:57 AM	(example, "What are you doing in my castle?!" "Hunting Haggis"). You don't have to be utterly insane. However, if you are deliberately looking for haggis with the intention of eating it, then yes, you have to be utterly insane.
eamon 01-20-08, 10:58 AM	In D&D, chaos is the opposite of Law. You could approach this positively and constructively by avoiding what your characters believes are the flaws in a lawful society. Activist: You could be the kind of person who makes a point to ridicule bad laws by illustrating their flaws - an "activist" who gathers popular appeal by choosing issues well. You don't need to be crazy, you just have a personality which doesn't like authority. You like making decisions in the adventuring party based on majority, and not the word of any leader, but you're not a liability, you just have no faith or respect for the law, and make a point of illustrating to the wider world when laws are bad. Perhaps you have a history with other activists, who are potentially NPC's for the DM. Maybe you have a "criminal" record somewhere for past misdeeds (trumped up by the local government for making them look like fools, naturally). Anarchist: You could even be a person who puts great weight on interpersonal deals, and never reneges on those, but believes that agreements and values are inherently personal and shouldn't be applied to large groups. Personally, you're willing to be reliable and consistent, but you treat every person differently. You don't adhere to the local rules where avoidable except on a case-by-case basis or until you've made a personal agreement about them. Maybe you take exceptional pride in supporting promising individuals that struggle to become all they could be, because "the system" holds them back. Vice versa, maybe you're the protege of a well connected, well meaning NPC anarchist. Adding a few of these connections might work well in your backstory for the DM to be able to connect well to his plot. If your DM likes plot-heavy backstories, adding a bit of this kind of history with his collaboration can make for great campaigns.
I_roll_ones 01-20-08, 07:19 PM	Chaotic encompasses waaaaay too many things in people's minds. What is law and what is chaotic isn't clearly defined. Therefore, approach your DM and say that you are chaotic, but you are going to focus on a particular aspect of it. What alignment are you? This will influence your choice, but ones I suggest are: Creation(As suggested above) Freedom Non-Xenophobia(If the campaign world has high amounts of xenophobia, you can RP it as trying to break away from a useless and detrimental tradition. If this doesn't work, pick another tradition to break) New ideas(Look at new ideas, and see if they are worthwhile. If they have some form of benefit, espouse them and try to get others to try new things) Activist(As suggested above) Anarchist(As suggested above)
LinusMundane 01-20-08, 07:39 PM	There is no alignment in this world. I have spoken to him about it and I have a pretty clear definition I just do not know how to act on it. Most of the ideas posted here will help though.
I_roll_ones 01-20-08, 08:27 PM	No alignment? Then what is the character's goal? To spread chaos, to be chaotic, or to achieve something else with chaotic means?
Eldritch_Lord 01-21-08, 11:20 AM	No alignment? Then what is the character's goal? To spread chaos, to be chaotic, or to achieve something else with chaotic means? He's Chaotic; do all three. :D
Eater_Of_Souls 01-21-08, 11:40 AM	what you DM is running after is that a cleric of chaos should be spereading chaos to please the entity that he is following. This means that if players are negotiating to have peace in the country side you should go with the flow but secretly work with various groups to ensure that the chaos continues and if necessary slay one the negoatiators and blame the other side for doing it. Above ofc. is a problem if you happen to be a chaotic good in which case you'd have to find some pretty creative ways of spreading chaos without getting some hurt in the process. Might help to ask from your DM if this power of chaos has an agenda that his followers should heed.
eamon 01-22-08, 09:46 AM	There is no alignment in this world. I have spoken to him about it and I have a pretty clear definition I just do not know how to act on it. Most of the ideas posted here will help though. Usually DM's appreciate it when you have your own ideas on how to fill out the campaign world, so here's to wishing you good luck and good fun :cool:.
Clawhound 01-22-08, 11:00 AM	If you can not agree with the DM about the chaos domain, then by all means, change your domain with his blessing. You may be able to convince your DM otherwise if you do a well-defined pitch for "chaos domain." "There are places where change needs to happen. Chaos must overcome order in the short run. Much like a gardener thinning his crop, I remove some things so that others might thrive far better and be more bountiful. This is why my destiny guides me to situations where my actions change something." I will add archtypes: - Drifter (you go where destiny takes you) - Improviser (who needs a plan?) - Vigilante
celloshane 01-22-08, 12:12 PM	Pee on every NPC you encounter.....if that is not chaotic enough for your DM then I dunno. If he does that to every npc, then that's too ordered. He'll have to pee on every person to the order of PI. So he should pee on roughly every 3rd person. In all seriousness, there are many different definitions of chaos. I would suggest to the OP that you determine some of your character's views and build from there. I would suggest you take a look at the Recluce book series by LE Modisett (spelling?). Those books offer a multitude of outlooks to explore. Chaos can be positive and negative, it's up to you decide how to apply it.
toucanbuzz 01-22-08, 03:10 PM	Your DM is clueless on "chaotic" as regards alignment. Chaotics don't see a need to follow laws to accomplish the good/neutral/evil aspect of their alignment. This in NO way means they actively seek to disrupt everything they see. That's plain retarded. Now there are beings of pure chaos in the outer planes, which don't have a choice but rather ARE chaos and try to destroy the order of everything. Your character is not one of them I imagine.
SquibThePirate 01-23-08, 01:41 AM	If he does that to every npc, then that's too ordered. He'll have to pee on every person to the order of PI. So he should pee on roughly every 3rd person. Of course. That makes much more senese....Pi is the symbol of pure chaos after all. (or is will be as soon as spread the word)
Eldritch_Lord 01-23-08, 04:40 PM	Of course. That makes much more senese....Pi is the symbol of pure chaos after all. (or is will be as soon as spread the word) Why doesn't anyone remember poor little 'e'? Just because 3.14159265358979323 > 2.718281828459 mathematically doesn't mean pi is better than e in practice!
Kobajagrande 01-23-08, 05:25 PM	My friend and I were talking once and got an idea that Chaos = Liberal and Lawful = Conservative. Therefore, Neutrality would naturally be Christian Democrats. Sadly, we never actually ran a game like that; would be fun to have an "Evil Liberal Blackguard" and "Good Conservative Paladin" in a game.
Eldritch_Lord 01-24-08, 05:15 PM	Sadly, we never actually ran a game like that; would be fun to have an "Evil Liberal Blackguard" and "Good Conservative Paladin" in a game. :twitch:
Kobajagrande 01-25-08, 04:22 AM	:twitch: Yes?
eamon 01-25-08, 10:54 AM	Yes? Perhaps his political leanings are different from yours and he was shocked at your suggestion. Politics is best discussed elsewhere...
Kobajagrande 01-25-08, 12:35 PM	Perhaps his political leanings are different from yours and he was shocked at your suggestion. Politics is best discussed elsewhere... I was discussing politics? Showing my political leanings? That's news to me.
HermitIX 01-25-08, 01:53 PM	Tell him you are chaotic, but not “Militant Fundamentalist Chaotic.” Then to act chaotic you make up lies that you don’t expect any one to believe, but you adhere to your story 100% for a few games then change the story. Like if you are a human male, claim to be an elven prince exiled from your kingdom, and turned in to an orc. Insist than an elf turned in to an orc becomes a human. Just like an orc turned in to an elf becomes a gnome. No one knows what a gnome turned in to a human becomes probably some type of giant gnome but, it would be best not to find out. Stick with that story then change it the next opportunity and completely “forget” the original story. This is chaotic behavior even if you obey the laws.
Dog_O_War 01-25-08, 02:21 PM	Chaos means everything you want, and not what you mean. It is the same and the exact opposite simultaineously. Chaos is as chaos does. It is your definition OP, and it is the definition your DM has adjudicated. But the domain itself might be granted via an alternate means (if you're a cleric). If it is granted by seeding political chaos (as per the DM's definition), then playing a fool just won't do. Maybe offer your view to him and attempt to explain that chaos should not be limited because, well, it's chaos.
LinusMundane 01-25-08, 03:22 PM	I get what you are saying. The cool part is I am not a defined class. I am a divine spell caster. If it is a spell a divine class could cast, I can cast it. I can take abilities as feats(ie wildshape) as long as I meet the prerequistes(minus class) whjich is why staying true to the domain is important to the DM.
Eldritch_Lord 01-26-08, 09:46 AM	Perhaps his political leanings are different from yours and he was shocked at your suggestion. Politics is best discussed elsewhere... I was discussing politics? Showing my political leanings? That's news to me. It was not so much a comment on my political leanings or lack thereof, and if I offended anyone I apologize. It was rather about the fact that Kobajagrande would find it fun to define characters by their political orientation. If we have this much trouble with alignment on these boards--a completely arbitrary, made-up designation--can you imagine the trouble political debates would cause? Now, we have paladins who want to implement a particular plan (sneak into a base instead of walking in directly, etc.) and the DM says "You can't do that; you're lawful good." What if he wanted to do something and the DM says "You can't do that; you're a conservative"? :gah: Better your group than mine.
twad 01-26-08, 01:03 PM	I chose the chaos domain as my one single domain in a homebrew world my DM concocted. The world does not have dieties in the traditional sense, your powers are gained through how you adhere to your domain. I am having trouble playing this character because the DM has expressed his beliefs on chaos to me and I think I may be in over my head. I have always played hack n slash and this is not that at all. We have tons of NPC interaction politics and problem solving to do. He expects that I will constantly be trying to disrupt order, do things to just see what happens and things of the like. Isn't this a nuisance to my party? Should I walk away from this domain(my goal was to learn how to "roleplay" and i thought the typical outlook would be boring)? How would you play a chaotic(not alignment because there are no alignments in this world) character in this setting? ***If this starts to go places we dont want it to go, I understand however I would like some input from people. Chaotic(in my eyes) in the terms of say a jester or the class clown. Mm.. i would define chaos as: Constant change, freedom of choice. - opportunistic, always finding new ways of doing things.. in clever/unexpected ways (dont follow the crowd, find your own way!), - Law and authority are just there to limit your freedom (but law and authority have a lot of ressources and armed troops at their disposal, so be smart about it), and it doesnt mean you cant help or appreciate them, you probably dont like all their "stuck-up" rules. - Chaos would also like to try new things, new feelings, new experiences, new ways to acheive things. - You probably dont follow etiquette, table manners, (heck, chances are you will make up your own on the fly) conventions and some stuff out the "common sense"... but you are not stupid about it. - You would frequently change your style (clothes and combat techniques maybe), your preferences of the moment (food, music and whatever else), prefered vocabulary, accent ect.. IMO, Of all things, 'chaos' favors creativity and quick thinking. It have NOTHING to do with "being stupid" hope it helps. Have fun. Be creative.
Kobajagrande 01-26-08, 01:24 PM	Now, we have paladins who want to implement a particular plan (sneak into a base instead of walking in directly, etc.) and the DM says "You can't do that; you're lawful good." What if he wanted to do something and the DM says "You can't do that; you're a conservative"? :gah: On a plus side, no GM would say "You have to insult the nobles; you're liberal" during the game. And who knows, maybe people would find broad RL ideologies more understandable than they do the current law-chaos stuff. And beside, it is all in good fun. PS. You can't sneak into a base if you're lawful good? That's like, most random and confusing example you could think of.
LinusMundane 01-26-08, 01:33 PM	Well, once again, Thanks to all of you who responded. I have however decided to drop the domain and spell casting all together. It became apparent at last nights game that his and my views on the subject to not mesh and I am not going to have fun playing a character that is so drastically different in my eyes then it is in my DM's. He did however give me an out with a plot twist(the choice was mine to make he just provided a means if I wanted) to walk away from casting and become more(totally) melee oriented. Now we are walking through retooling the stats and abilities I had for new ones. Only being 1/2 day game time into the campaign it should just be a transition and not a process.
Eldritch_Lord 01-27-08, 05:32 PM	On a plus side, no GM would say "You have to insult the nobles; you're liberal" during the game. Unless he thinks the nobles are conservative and that liberals and conservatives would automatically hate each other, which I could see happening. And who knows, maybe people would find broad RL ideologies more understandable than they do the current law-chaos stuff. That is likely, but then, political ideologies are closer to RL values, and as we have seen from these boards, anything touching on RL religion, politics, and other issues can cause trouble; going from "Chaotic neutral character are stupid" to "Liberal characters are stupid" and "Paladins are so often played as Lawful Stupid" to "Paladins are so often played as stupid conservatives" is not a good thing. See, it even happens here--if I had contrasted conservatives with CN and liberals with LS, how would reactions be different? And beside, it is all in good fun. Unfortunately, I have played in a group or two where the players could not set aside RL opinions/grudges and just play; you seem to be luckier than I have been. PS. You can't sneak into a base if you're lawful good? That's like, most random and confusing example you could think of. Not really; look on the What's a DM to Do? board. They might have been archived by now, but there were a couple of threads a while back basically saying "One of my players has a paladin, and when the other characters sneak into the enemy fortress he goes along. I don't think he should do that because it's not honorable or lawful good; he should walk in and announce himself. How do I make him stop being sneaky?"
Kobajagrande 01-28-08, 04:19 AM	Unless he thinks the nobles are conservative and that liberals and conservatives would automatically hate each other, which I could see happening. Only when talking about abortion though. That is likely, but then, political ideologies are closer to RL values, and as we have seen from these boards, anything touching on RL religion, politics, and other issues can cause trouble; going from "Chaotic neutral character are stupid" to "Liberal characters are stupid" and "Paladins are so often played as Lawful Stupid" to "Paladins are so often played as stupid conservatives" is not a good thing. See, it even happens here--if I had contrasted conservatives with CN and liberals with LS, how would reactions be different? Sorry, I'm sure you're trying to argue about something here, I just don't know what. I just said that my friend and I were talking that "its funny that champion of good is a conservative and a champion of evil is a liberal - D&D has some nice hidden messages there". If you find that unfunny and want to stop us, well, steal our christmas while you're at it. Not really; look on the What's a DM to Do? board. They might have been archived by now, but there were a couple of threads a while back basically saying "One of my players has a paladin, and when the other characters sneak into the enemy fortress he goes along. I don't think he should do that because it's not honorable or lawful good; he should walk in and announce himself. How do I make him stop being sneaky?" Hahahahahahaahahaha. That's seriously entertaining and amusing, in a "I don't have a cure for human stupidity kind of way"
Eldritch_Lord 01-28-08, 02:51 PM	Only when talking about abortion though. I'm not touching this one. :noway: Sorry, I'm sure you're trying to argue about something here, I just don't know what. I just said that my friend and I were talking that "its funny that champion of good is a conservative and a champion of evil is a liberal - D&D has some nice hidden messages there". If you find that unfunny and want to stop us, well, steal our christmas while you're at it. Oh, I'm sure it will work with your group because you all know each other fairly well, I've just been making a long-winded point that it's not for everyone. I have no interest in stealing anyone's Christmas--that's the liberals' job. ;) Hahahahahahaahahaha. That's seriously entertaining and amusing, in a "I don't have a cure for human stupidity kind of way" Yeah, pretty sad, isn't it?
eamon 02-04-08, 08:05 AM	Sorry, I'm sure you're trying to argue about something here, I just don't know what. I just said that my friend and I were talking that "its funny that champion of good is a conservative and a champion of evil is a liberal - D&D has some nice hidden messages there". If you find that unfunny and want to stop us, well, steal our christmas while you're at it.The hidden message is not there. That kind of stuff can be funny with a group you know (though online it's of course a little too explosive). On the other hand a blackguard has no law-chaos alignment restriction, and I don't see how the (ill-defined) liberal-conservative scala maps onto blackguards vs. paladins. Certainly, neither good vs. evil nor law vs. chaos are equivalent to the RL scala. Notably, the plain english word conservative in the sense of conservation and in the sense of reluctant to change doesn't reflect the word's usage in politics very well at all, and similar hold for the word liberal. This is relevant since the law-vs-chaos axis refers to freedom and liberty which might be confused with the political term liberal (despite meaning vastly different things), and similar holds for the law alignment. In closing, I'm happy this thread didn't devolve into a flame-war, but I'm not comfortable with using these forums to suggest political equivalences for game elements - I can see how that could be fun, but let's not do it here. Your initial post isn't intended to be inflammatory, but to a casual reader it could easily be so nevertheless. I'm not trying to say the idea is somehow wrong, but that this just isn't the best medium to enjoy it in. It's definitely already derailed this thread...
Kobajagrande 02-04-08, 12:56 PM	On the other hand a blackguard has no law-chaos alignment restriction, and I don't see how the (ill-defined) liberal-conservative scala maps onto blackguards vs. paladins. Certainly, neither good vs. evil nor law vs. chaos are equivalent to the RL scala. Notably, the plain english word conservative in the sense of conservation and in the sense of reluctant to change doesn't reflect the word's usage in politics very well at all, and similar hold for the word liberal. This is relevant since the law-vs-chaos axis refers to freedom and liberty which might be confused with the political term liberal (despite meaning vastly different things), and similar holds for the law alignment. Ok man, I have no intent to argue here, so I'll just say why we came up with what we did. You may agree or disagree, but let's not get into whys and hows. And especially avoid draging RL into this. If you look at description of law, you'll find things such as respect the traditions, laws, and establishing rules in the society. Pretty much simmilar as the texbook traits of conservative ideology, which opposes what it sees as unnecessary change and thinks tradition is important part of what helped society keep functioning. On the other hand, chaos stresses freedom, self-development, etc. Again, that's pretty close to the liberal ideas of freedom of choice and unfettered mankind. And seriously, what is a complete opposite to a LG Paladin? A CE Blackguard. That's all there is, seriously.