Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sargon 05-25-05, 01:13 AM	My Cleric of Tyr has just found out that all the other party members are Chaotic... Tyr opposes Chaos and promotes Lawfulness. The other characters have not broken anylaws or wronged the Cleric, But they are chaotic.. and that promotes unique problem.. They've helped him enormisely but they are by thier nature opposed to wha the Church of Tyr stands for.. Whats shoudl a player do?
J.B. 05-25-05, 01:41 AM	Well, Tyr isn't an evil god so don't go taking their chaotic tendencies personally and try to beat it out of them. Assuming the rest of the group, although chaotic, isn't evil then try to teach them by example. Show them the advantages of an orderly and disciplined way of life. Mind you, "Chaotic" does not mean "Anti-Tyr" so don't take it as such and berrate the rest of the party for their lawless ways. Take whatever opportunities you can to show them a "better" way, but don't push them into it. Good Luck!
Flushmaster 05-25-05, 03:50 AM	Take whatever opportunities you can to show them a "better" way, but don't push them into it. Yeah, do that. Part of being lawful good is planning to lead by example. As long as they act good then any difference in method can be seen as them having their hearts in the right place but needing guidance on how to go about things. Your character should try to provide that guidance like a teacher would: tell them what they should do and then show them how it's done.
CzarGarrett 05-25-05, 09:49 AM	And just because they are chaotic doesn't mean they can't ever act in a lawful manner. Plus you can always use their more chaotic nature: The lawful plan takes for 2 PCs to flank the right side, while the Cleric and 1 PC go straight forward, and 1 PC stays back and casts spells/uses a bow. The chaotic side of the plan allows for the flanking PCs to hit the targets they see fit, the archer or caster PC in the back can hit various targets that they think are more dangerous. You can run the gamut.
Leap 05-25-05, 10:55 AM	Having lawfuls and chaotics be friendly is a bit like having civil service bureaucrats and travellers (gypsies) being friends.....they just dont blend.... The fact that these bods have all been being friendly is probably showing up a little alignment label/behaviour discrepency :)
Thanatos02 05-25-05, 11:09 AM	Untrue. The nature of D&D frequently creates these ethical and moral problems because of both the label of alignments and magic that can both discover and have effects based on them. However, a character who is chaotic does not base his actions on his alignment, rather, it is a product of the way he thinks. Because of this, we do not (or rather, should not) see characters rationalizing actions because they're chaotic. For example, it's nonsensical for a chaotic character to randomly jump off a bridge. Imagine the following actions: Characters: Paladin Chaotic Rogue CR: "My, what a lovely day. What a fine bridge overlooking a river!" Pally: "Why yes. But you're chaotic - stop being chaotic! I'm lawful, so I don't like you!" CR: "Your basis for disliking me is not based on my actions, but rather an unstructured mindset which you have somehow detected! Woe is me! This bridge... I jump!" ***Rogue jumps from the bridge. The Pally, despite his rather arbitrary dislike of the Rogue is now forced to save him from drowing, which he does.*** Pally: "Why would you do that? It's a 30 foot drop into frigid water!" Rogue: "Well I'm chaotic. That's what we do. -------------- If it seems a little silly, well, that's because it is. There isn't a good reason for the Paladins dislike of our chaotic friend (until, of course, he jumps from that blasted bridge). In the same manner, the Rogues jumping from the bridge is nonsensical. It has no reason, and chaotic chracters, while they opt towards freedom and away from restriction, are not totally absent of good sense. And yet, I see both Lawful and Chaotic types treated as such very often. While there are chaotic characters and a priest of Tyr in they party, this doesn't mean they can't travel and be friends. Chaotic types don't have to dispise local laws, nor are they always inclined to go out of their way and break them. That's not really a chaotic act, but it is stupid. They just don't worry about it. Chaotic Good characters are unlikely to break the law in the first place. Lawful types probably have issues with Chaotic general messiness, but that's likely to be it, unless your chaotics start over-turning lawfully established civilizations.
Leap 05-25-05, 12:35 PM	That's a bit superficial..... Sure they dont go around thinking "I'm lawful so I should...." etc.... However...their alignment will colour their attitude (so that the chaotic is unrelable as far as the lawfuls plans go (the chaotic bod will change as he sees fit whilst the lawful will stick at things in a very blinkered approach)). Lawfuls are very keen on society being about productivity (with people being productive), but chaotics are too loose to worry about such things (and as a consequence would be a very unproductive - chopping off to go do whatever they fancy). The underlying personality traits would really jar...and make friendship all but impossible.... Think of the hardworking dad (Lawful) who disapproves of his daughter dating a waster (chaotic). He may end up having some degree of grudging respect for the waster kid, if he turns out to treat his daughter well, but will never actually like him as he's opposed to everything the dad stands for.....
cambric 05-25-05, 01:00 PM	Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) This is a great discussion on lawful and chaotic alignments getting along. Cam
snowlynx 05-25-05, 02:02 PM	If they're not causing you problems, and you're leading them, then you are doing great! Continue on your proper path, and rest easy knowing that you are keeping chaotic individuals in control. Perhaps eventually they will understand the path of law, and why it is important, by your actions. I also have a lawful character leading a chaotic group: the group would act up if left in a town too long, but our travels keep them entertained and behaved. I gladly get along with these people; they are entertaining and not surly, and I do the stuff for the group that requires reason and fairness (like dividing up loot.) It works out pretty well.
braindead345 05-27-05, 03:43 AM	There are degrees of alignment that players never take into consideration anymore. They might be CG, but how CG are they? For example, do they feel that the only laws needed are physics and the Golden Rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you")? Or do they think some laws are needed, but nonsense like "no dog walking between 6:00 AM and 9:30 AM" is pointless? In short, if the characters are so chaotic they scoff at every rule, the cleric should do his best to straighten them out. On the other hand, if the characters are just outside the realm of true Neutral or Neutral Good, the cleric should give them lots of slack.
Leap 05-27-05, 04:01 AM	Or do they think some laws are needed, but nonsense like "no dog walking between 6:00 AM and 9:30 AM" is pointless Isnt that NG?
Vaelan 05-27-05, 04:02 AM	The lawful plan takes for 2 PCs to flank the right side, while the Cleric and 1 PC go straight forward, and 1 PC stays back and casts spells/uses a bow. The chaotic side of the plan allows for the flanking PCs to hit the targets they see fit, the archer or caster PC in the back can hit various targets that they think are more dangerous. I fail to see how either of these parts are inherently Lawful or Chaotic. Making an effective, detailed plan is not inherently Lawful, it is simply acting intelligently. Adapting to new circumstances or exercising your discretion is not inherently Chaotic, it is simply a function of not being a mindless automaton. I dislike this sort of stereotyping. Chaotic people are not idiots, and Lawful people are not mindless automatons. They're all rational beings capable of rational thought.
Leap 05-27-05, 04:35 AM	However, the stereotype is based on some degree of accuracy..... Chaotics are better at thinking on their feet, whereas lawfuls are better at seeing something through. Lawfuls have more emotional and behavioural constitution (stamina), chaotics have more emotional and behavioural dexterity (flexibility). And hey lawful race (dwarf) has higher con whilst chaotic race (elf) has higher dex...lol Lawfuls are the farmers of the world; settled, plodding, like the cart horse and the cow, following a pretty fixed calendar of actions (plough, sow, grow, reap, fallow, plough, sow and so on). Chaotics are the hunters of the world; nomadic, spurting then slacking, like the lion and the wolf, acting as fluid nature dictates rather than following a fixed itinary.
Mirikon 05-27-05, 11:55 AM	Law and Chaos can get along just fine. Granted, there are more likely to be arguments and such, but there is no reason why a lawful character and a chaotic character can't adventure together, and even be friends. It is even possible for LG and CE to get along, though it is a lot more difficult. Lawful does not mean 'robot'. It does not mean you see chaotic, therefore you must slay it. Lawful does mean that you follow a strict ethical code, either your own, or one dictated to you by society or your religion. Unless that code says you must go out and either convert or kill all who are chaotic in nature, don't. Chaotic does not mean 'anarchist'. It does not mean you have to go against every law or rule that doesn't suit your fancy. It does mean that you look at life from a different point of view than the rest of society. Robin Hood is CG, but he set up some rules for his Merry Men.
Head_PC 1 05-27-05, 03:04 PM	This is just another example of why there shouldnt be alignments at all. Alignment is not a real thing, character is. Alignment is a useless, cumbersome rule that is set up as a pointless guideline for people with no ability to roleplay, for paladins to smite, and for Dms to force parties together. If alignment was just replaced with roleplay, paladins would make a lot more sense, and a lot less of these threads would be needlessly started.
Enslaved DM 05-27-05, 11:58 PM	There is a lot of stereotyping of chaos/law going on here that has very little to do with the heart of the matter or what it means to be lawful or chaotic. Lawful types like rules and codes of behavior. Chaotics don't like them. A chaotic good person doesn't care about what the law says, he or she is in favor of justice and liberty. A lawful evil person tries to set or use the rules to his or her best advantage. Planning ahead and taking intelligent action are not lawful or chaotic actions. Now, for the real meat of the matter, what are the ACTIONS of the the chaotic characters? Are they just? Do they violate just laws (unjust laws are trickier)? Do they opposse evil (a big thing with Tyr)? If the answer to these questions is yes, then it is certainly in character for him to continue to associate with them. He might start promoting the greatness of Tyr though. If any of the above is no, then the priest is going to have to make a decision.
SammasterT 05-28-05, 12:37 PM	Both within and especially outside of FR, TyR Himself associates and works with deities that are not lawful. And in fact, there is more than one system of law, and some of them are both more permissive and more demanding than others. In the real world, Tyr ruled over the institution known as the Thing, in which locality and precedent reigned supreme ... as opposed to some timebound code with pretentions to universality and detached impartiality. This form of law -- in fact the very word law stems from a Danish root meaning "layer, precedent" -- adjusted to fit the will of the community it served, as opposed to trying to force all communities into a common mold. It emphasized the community over the individual, dealt in terms of **offended** and offender, rather than the savior-oriented *victim* and offender, and *empowered* the citizens to bring their own suits, claim their own crimes, plead their own cases, and judge their own disputes ... with no police force, god, judge, or centralized power, other than the community itself, to push folk around and force its deemings. In the end, if these people have helped Tyr's servant, it is his duty to recognize that aid, not ignore it in favour of some abstract ideological nonsense that has little grounding in the realm of experience.