Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Apocolypse_77 08-02-07, 02:24 PM	I am looking for suggestion on how to play a chaotic evil character who is not suicidal. There are many ways to play each of the alignments, but generally most people play chaotic evil as homicidal maniacs, but i want to know how else you can play them.
Prator_the_Legendary 08-02-07, 02:30 PM	Easy. You just take two aspects of a normal human being, and screw them up a little. 1. You don't care about other people. 2. You always get what you want. You're covetous and mean, and always looking out for yourself. You may not go out of your way to do well for yourself at others' expense, but if it turns out that way it probably doesn't matter to you. You may hurt other people out of simple pettiness. However, you do have enough of a survival instinct that you know better than to **** off people who are stronger than you, even if you have no respect for their authority. You're not incapable of love, you're just very, very selfish.
JulesCARV 08-02-07, 02:44 PM	What class/race/role/campaign setting/campaign are you thinking of?
Serik_Swift 08-02-07, 02:48 PM	The way i play ce, is that i usually give them a few lawful or good characteristics, but they doin't have the moral compulsions against killing that a outright good cahrachter might.
Puca 08-02-07, 02:51 PM	Generally, I find alignment seems the most consistent when you look at one axis as the "means to the end" and the other as the "end." So, I could play it this way: The end: Chaotic = freedom My primary value is freedom. My freedom. That which limits me, holds me back, or gets in my way is "bad." That which helps me, makes my life easier or more enjoyable is "good." The means: Evil = self over others Im the one who counts. Nothing that limits my freedom is justified: not you, not him, not the "lives of innocents" nothing. If it somehow could limit my ability to do what I want to do, then it is bad and I have the right to take it out. Any means available to me are justified in the pursuit of my personal freedom. See, a chaotic good person might have freedom as their highest value as well. The difference is, they acknowledge limits. It isnt just their freedom they value; it is the freedom of other sentient creatures as well. Their right to swing their fists ends at another face. I need more space. Im chaotic evil. I could care less if others are free. In fact, the freedom of others may very likely come into conflict with mine. In which case, only one of us is going to be totally free. I pick me. To flesh this guy out and make his alignment connected to his personality, Ill add the concept of expediency. If the simplest easiest way to get what I want or do what I want to do is to follow the law, tell the truth, or act like I give a rats ass about the guy across from me, thats what Ill do. Not because I have to or because I care, but because that is the easiest way to accomplish my goal. Nine times out of 10, the easiest choice is to do what everybody else is doing. I can follow the law, but I do so because I chose to. And I chose to because it was the most expeditious thing to do at the time. (As long as I have a choice, Im fine.) 90% of the time, this character is going to look and act like any other decent citizen. But if killing you becomes easier than reasoning with you, watch out because Ive got better things to do than argue.
RealSorceror 08-02-07, 03:06 PM	Couldn't have said it better, Puca. I've played CE before, and while I was not well liked by the other characters in game (out of game everyone thought I was a riot), I rarely broke the law, harmed innocent people, or stole. Granted, I did steal and push people around, but only when I could get away with it without attracting the attention of the Law Man or raising the ire of my party members. My character was openly abrasive and offensive, but become a smooth-talking business-man when money was on the line. A CE character never needs to be suicidal or crazy. In fact, usually only demons and feinds display the level of insanity that some people expect from CE. Humaniod CE characters are almost normal and sane by comparison.
Endarrion 08-02-07, 03:45 PM	I have been kicking around the idea (as many others have, I'm sure) of a CE character who believes that nothing deserves to live. Not even himself. So he adventures in order to kill as many people as he can: young, old, infirm, strong, weak; it doesn't matter. Eventually the character would end either by dying in battle (or being murdered/assassinated/hunted) or by killing himself after completing (to his satisfaction) his goal of total death (unlikely). Some of the examples so far strike me as neutral evil instead of chaotic evil. I would play chaotic evil as a person who would kill someone just for inconveniencing them. They may have a strong moral philosophy to back up their actions (the character idea I suggested) or they may just "not care" (most evil humanoids in the monster manual). Remember: A character's alignment defines them just as much as their ability scores. A LG paladin with an intelligence of 6 will not have the strong grasp of philosophy or capability of discussion that a paladin with an intelligence of 12 would have. A CE char. with a low intelligence and charisma would be seemingly crazy, and if he had a high wisdom, he may be the kind to have insight into situations, but just as easily fly of the handle and murder someone. A CE char with a low wisdom, would most likely be a homicidal maniac. The basis for this is the Derro, who are "mad" and have a -6 (I believe) to wisdom. I would liken this character to some of the historical serial killers (especially if the character has a high intelligence). A CE char with average to high scores in INT, WIS, and CHA would be likened to a Hitler or Stalin. They are intelligent and cunning, and have a high enough sense of self coupled with the ability to lead others, that they would influence their followers to spread their own kind of evil and chaos (although a strong argument could be made for Stalin an Hitler being LE). Perhaps think of this character as the leader of a cult. Read Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns." The leader of the mutant gang would be a good example. Remember though: they are Chaotic AND Evil. Evil in D&D is defined the same way it is in real life: those who know the difference between right and wrong, but choose the harming of others as their way to gain or personal fulfillment are evil. *steps off the soapbox* Thank you :)
RealSorceror 08-02-07, 04:02 PM	Endarrion, while I fully expect such a character to die through horrible violence long before he gets too far, I'd look into classes such as the Doom Lord and Choatician (both in the Planar Handbook) and the Entropomancer (I think thats what its called), which is in the Complete Arcane. Maybe even the Corrupt Avenger from Heroes of Horror. The only problem is, such a character has a very well defined goal and purpose. He feels that his life and everyone elses are meaningless. He may even feel that people are inherently evil and destructive, and that he alone has realized this. I'd say that differs a little from a psycho killer, who's deeds are random and have no logic or reasoning behind them.
Endarrion 08-02-07, 04:06 PM	Yeah, but not every chaotic evil character has to be a psycho killer with no reason behind his activities. The character spreads death indiscriminately (evil) and chooses his victims on whim (evil). I'd say the character who realizes that everyone else is evil and has to kill them, would also be chaotic evil. Remember, Germany thought they were the good guys. Evil people don't necessarily say "I am evil as opposed to good."
RealSorceror 08-02-07, 04:12 PM	Yeah, but not every chaotic evil character has to be a psycho killer with no reason behind his activities. The character spreads death indiscriminately (evil) and chooses his victims on whim (evil). I'd say the character who realizes that everyone else is evil and has to kill them, would also be chaotic evil. Remember, Germany thought they were the good guys. Evil people don't necessarily say "I am evil as opposed to good." Right you are. I was actually suggesting that the character might not be chaotic (he is obviously evil). I was thinking a character with the goal of "kill everyone" could be any alignmnet on the Law-Choas axis. Also, when you say "everyone", are you refering to humaniods? All sentient beings? Life in general?
Endarrion 08-02-07, 04:20 PM	Ah, I see. Sorry I misunderstood. By "everyone" I meant ... all sentient life I suppose. That's the easier of the two ideas. The second idea would be to kill anything with life. Period. Razing forests and the like. Oh, and when I said, "The character spreads death indiscriminately" I should have put (chaotic) in the parentheses. I suppose one could choose which path to take the character on by how many people he wants to hunt him. Someone who thinks all sentient life has to die might get some support from the local evil/mislead druid (who thinks that sentient life forms [humanoids in particular] destroy too much nature). Whereas the one who kills all living matter would have no friends really. And before someone says that this character could not exist in a party ... sure he could! He would just see his comrades as tools to further his goals and would do most of his murderin' when they're not looking. The hard part would be that I would play the character as owning up to his (mis)deeds and not lying if someone confronted him. I think it would be a blast to play a character like that.
Puca 08-02-07, 04:35 PM	There are a lot of differnt ways to play CE. For the "insane CE" I could have offered this: The end: Evil = killing people, causing pain Basically, I hate everybody and want them to die, hopefully with an much suffering as possible in the meantime. The means: Chaos = disorder I want to cause suffering, and what better way to do that than through wanton destruction. See, a Lawful Evil person might want to rule the world, but I want to burn it down. I flesh this guy out with unbridled hatred and unmitigated anger. He has no happiness, no joy, so no one else deserves it either. This guy is never going to pass for a regular guy. The only thing keeping him from killing you is the lack of opportunity. The problem with this type of PC is that he can never really work inside a party.
RealSorceror 08-02-07, 04:56 PM	You could always get some enchantment spells, boost the DC, and wipe a few minds. Of course, you're in even more trouble if someone makes the save...
Zaver 08-02-07, 04:57 PM	Since the PHB has CE only working together under strong leadership you could model the character like Shishio from Kenshin. If you're not familiar, Shishio frequently says "If you're strong you live, if you're weak you die." I'm in complete agreement with Puca on how to work alignments and in this case it can be that you feel your strength makes you superior and the only reason you'll respect any authority is because it's stronger then you which does nothing but breed contempt and resenment driving you to out pace them so you can enforce your will upon them.
Temmogen 08-02-07, 05:05 PM	Always remember that Evil is charming. You never know someone is evil until they let you know. :evillaugh
Puca 08-02-07, 05:08 PM	"If you're strong you live, if you're weak you die." ...it can be that you feel your strength makes you superior and the only reason you'll respect any authority is because it's stronger then you which does nothing but breed contempt and resenment driving you to out pace them so you can enforce your will upon them.Yeah, I agree. The hallmark of evil is its self-centeredness. If you are strong, strength is good. Weakness is bad. If you are smart, then brains are what matters. The stupid deserve death. This is getting a little bit closer to how I tend to play LE though. Even the rudimentary categorizations involved in separating those who deserve to live from those who dont is more than I do with most chaotic characters.
Nephlite 08-02-07, 05:30 PM	I am looking for suggestion on how to play a chaotic evil character who is not suicidal. There are many ways to play each of the alignments, but generally most people play chaotic evil as homicidal maniacs, but i want to know how else you can play them. Evil=beliebes elf overrides others Chaotic=believes his freedom is mst important He has no compulsion to not defend himself (with *exceptions). * maybe he was an ophan and won 't kill ophans (might knock them out) but not kill. Maybe he won't hurt children unless last resort (childhood issues) There can be alot of ways to make them. This example is a guy who will hurt dudes in defense. He doesn't go out to kill everyone (Chaotic stupid) or help everyone (Stupid Good). He may love or hate his family (as no part with alignment), may have a girl or wife. But something in him made him just not care about others sanctity of life. He might believe you don't deserve life till you proove you do (which will involve doing something for him). He may even think a Paladin is his hero/idol all the while slaying someone who accidently pushed him (he had a really bad day before this). Really, as long as you make him normal but few compulsions he fits CE. Also according to PHB, you need to love to fight to differenciate it from NE.
posternutbag 08-02-07, 06:01 PM	Come on over to the "Making Riddick" thread in the Classes board. We have been discussing Riddick (from Pitch Black and Chronicles of Riddick) for about 7 pages and alignment is a very big part of it. Lots of examples of what people think is Chaotic Evil. I personally think Riddick is an excellent example of a completely sane CE, but others disagree. Other CE examples are The Joker from Batman (clearly insane); I would also say that Patrick Bateman from American Psycho is CE (although he does a great job of faking alignments ranging from NG to LN in the movie); I would say Tyler Durden from Fight Club is either CN or CE (I would say CE). None of these are suicidal, homicidal, definately. Those are some of my favorite CE characters because we get to see so much of their motivation, but lots of iconic villans are CE. I would say Mystique from X-Men was CE, but I have seen WotC list her as NE. I tend to think she could be either (probably NE in the movies but more CE in the Comic Books). I would say Bullseye from Daredevil is CE. I actually think Hitler and Stalin are more LE and serial killers could be LE, NE, or CE, depending on their psychological bent, motivations, sepecific actions and degree of organization. Still, I think Riddick is a classic CE anti-hero.
Prak, the Mad 08-02-07, 07:45 PM	Easy. You just take two aspects of a normal human being, and screw them up a little. 1. You don't care about other people. 2. You always get what you want. You're covetous and mean, and always looking out for yourself. You may not go out of your way to do well for yourself at others' expense, but if it turns out that way it probably doesn't matter to you. You may hurt other people out of simple pettiness. However, you do have enough of a survival instinct that you know better than to **** off people who are stronger than you, even if you have no respect for their authority. You're not incapable of love, you're just very, very selfish. alternatively, and even more contributing to an in-depth character, 1. You care about yourself, and possibly a small group of people, such as your family, your friends, or your clan/villiage/tribe and no one else. 2. You do what you must to ensure the well being of said group. the rest is good though. Remember, evil characters are people too, and even mind flayers have friends, though the mind flayer form of friendship would be strange and uncanny to us. I like the suggestions on here, I'm very surprised that no one has fallen into the chaotic stupid fallacy that is so common, looking at how many infantile young players I've ssen on other threads on here, and how many new players I've seen here... As a perpetual advocate of "human" portrayals of CE, I like you people, when I overthrow the government, you will all recieve positions of power and freedom...;)
Mock26 08-02-07, 07:49 PM	Also remember that it is probably best to care a great deal about your fellow adventurers. After all, without their assistance and well being it is harder for you to survive! Sure, you may try to screw them over at some point in the future, but while you are adventuring with them they are more just as important to you as you are to yourself.
Prak, the Mad 08-02-07, 07:52 PM	Also remember that it is probably best to care a great deal about your fellow adventurers. After all, without their assistance and well being it is harder for you to survive! Sure, you may try to screw them over at some point in the future, but while you are adventuring with them they are more just as important to you as you are to yourself. exactly, if only the female drow in the other thread knew this...
posternutbag 08-02-07, 08:06 PM	People seem to think that Evil characters care only for themselves. I offer up Riddick and Annikin Skywalker/Darth Vader as great examples of Evil characters that care about others. CE is just someone who doesn't have a conscience or respect for authority.
Prak, the Mad 08-02-07, 08:08 PM	People seem to think that Evil characters care only for themselves. I offer up Riddick and Annikin Skywalker/Darth Vader as great examples of Evil characters that care about others. CE is just someone who doesn't have a conscience or respect for authority that obviously can't kick your ass. fixed.
posternutbag 08-02-07, 08:14 PM	Agreed.
setekh 08-02-07, 08:22 PM	A CE character never needs to be suicidal or crazy. In fact, usually only demons and feinds display the level of insanity that some people expect from CE. Humaniod CE characters are almost normal and sane by comparison. And even then, there are smooth talking Demons (Mostly the unique ones - Pazuzu, Graz'zt etc)
bloodtalon 08-02-07, 08:23 PM	i have a CE fighter i bring out once in a while to shake things up for my group all he wants is to be drunk and kick but. he is a big time trouble maker who likes to stir the pot and sit back and watch the fur fly also. the one quirk i guess for being CE is that he is the mosy honest person ever in our group. never told a lie or did not say what he thought. his reasoning is that the truth hurts more and in the long run causes more chaos. paladins may not out right lie but they will not tell the enemy what thier army is planning. my guy would so more people would die and he could get some bandits to hit the winner and get more stuff without risking his own life. as long as he was happy he did not care about any one. in a post i did a couple months back i did describe how he killed his infant son while escapeing from some elves because the baby was crying and was gonna give him away.
jingizu999 08-03-07, 01:05 AM	I am currently playing a chaotic evil artificer in Eberron and I'm going the "corrupt the party" route. So far I have managed to personally buy the allegiance of the mercenary, turn the warforged into my pet puppy dog and use a dark ritual to bring the ranger back to life (likely completely corrupting him) without the cleric catching on. In my case my alignment came about from being turned into a vampire and being partially restored and brought back by a dark god who is attempting to make me his slave (all post character creation). After clawing my way out of my own grave I hooked up with the party so I could guilt trip them about burying me in Karrnath, sucker them out of the evil stone (plot item) and screw with their lives. Since I know I've been corrupted I'm working towards redemption and freeing myself from my benefactor while researching how to add a slave collar enchantment to the healing amulets I'm making. What can I say, an artificer has to have hobbies. P.S. If any of my party members read this I will be forced to kill anyone found meta-gaming with GM approval.
Saurus33 08-03-07, 01:53 AM	I saw this in a sig a while ago: Chaotic Evil: What can I gain from killing this person? Psychotic Evil: Why shouldn't I kill this person? Try not to be PE. When a lot of people(Not the ones on this thread) say CE, what they're thinking is PE.
Puca 08-03-07, 10:47 AM	Defining evil is pretty much up to the DM, but, personally, I dont think evil cares about anyone else. Yes, you need your party members and allies to succeed and survive, and you "care" that they live precisely for that reason. Only for that reason. That is what separates an evil person from a neutral person. For a truly evil character, the other party members are resources. I dont care about the party cleric: I know Im going to need healing. Outwardly, this might look very similar to a guy who really cares for the cleric, as a friend. But it isnt the same at all. To say I care about him, as a person, is to give assign him some sort of intrinsic value beyond what he can do for me. But Im evil. He has no value beyond what he can do for me. This fellow party member is on the same level as my sword, my armor, my rope. I aint dying for my rope. I need rope, but I can always find more. Im not personally attached to this particular length of rope. The acid test is the level of risk Id take to save him. If the cleric is in a jam and the risk to myself in trying to save him is greater than the risk Id face without him available, I dont do it. (How many potions of CLW do I have? If youre doing inventory before you decide your course of action, you dont care about the cleric.) As soon as I dont need him to heal me, I no longer care about him at all.
High Octane 08-03-07, 11:10 AM	I am looking for suggestion on how to play a chaotic evil character who is not suicidal. There are many ways to play each of the alignments, but generally most people play chaotic evil as homicidal maniacs, but i want to know how else you can play them.Early Riddick. Not later when he does stuff for other people, but when he cooly and intelligently hacks his way through anyone, innocent or not, to get what he wants with a complete disdain for authority.
DrMorganes 08-03-07, 11:25 AM	People seem to think that Evil characters care only for themselves. I offer up Riddick and Annikin Skywalker/Darth Vader as great examples of Evil characters that care about others. CE is just someone who doesn't have a conscience or respect for authority that can't obviously kick your ass. Fixed again, as long as we're nitpicking ;) There are lots of ways to play Chaotic Evil. The stereotypical CE entity is all about power: power over others, power over self, power over as much as he/she/it can manage. Demons are the typical example of this. They don't truly respect anyone or anything. They exploit those weaker than themselves, and fear those who are more powerful - until they can subvert that power and depose (or destroy) that which they once feared. This doesn't work well for mortal beings. Like it or not, mortals typically work best in groups. A CE mortal will certainly buck authority, bully those weaker than himself, and defer to those more powerful, but he also understands the value of friends. Like any Chaotically-aligned character, he may very well hold his friends in very high regard and do nearly anything for them, because he chooses to place them in high regard. His selfishness will manifest itself in small ways like always playing one-up on his warrior friends or deriding his sorcerer companion's lack of physical strength. He can (and probably does) love, and may well dote in a nauseating manner upon those he loves. However, his expectations of loved ones will be high, his rules will be strict, and odds are he won't tolerate much back talk. The trick to having a believable character of any alignment is to define the strong points of his personality AND his weaknesses. Many times the strong aspects of the character are there to cover or compensate for the weak aspects. For example (an this has nothing to do with alignment specifically), the Sumerian king Gilgamesh was obsessed with death - or rather, with avoiding death by achieving immortality. This obsession drove him to many reckless quests where he faced the very real possibility of death at every turn. A CE character, then, may strive for personal power out of a deep-rooted belief that he is in actuality weak in some manner.