Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bregalad 03-07-05, 09:39 PM	Thought Id post this on the players board and get some PC feedback. So here is the situation: Have a CN Dread Pirate. Has leadership feat, is captain of boat, MUST stay chaotic to retain Dread Pirate Class. My problem is staying chaotic. My lawful (imo) stuff: Have to run the boat efficiently (and Ill admit its pretty lawful) since its dangerous on the waters. The other players look to me for dierction and orders (on the ship and off as well) which puts me in the lawful spotlight all the time. My chaotic (imo) stuff: Anyone on the boat has the right to leave whenever they want...err thats about it. I try and focus on two things above all else, getting money and protecting the boat, which helps me out in the chaotic department. But the whole leadership thing is like a loadstone around my neck. Any thoughts on how to be an effective leader and still remain chaotic?
Draco Strang 03-07-05, 09:48 PM	Randomly shift your mood. One minute you're the typical jolly old tar, loving the sea, salt, and air. Next minute you threaten to hang anyone who comments on how "refreshing" that sea breeze is, since you're soaked to the skin, cold, and miserable. Blatantly disregard laws sometimes, and use them when it suits your purpose. For example, insist that your crew follow your rules and orders, all the while thumbing your nose at the local authorities. Pretty contradictory, eh? Be erratic in your discipline and leadership styles. Strict as hell on Tuesdays, but call it a free-day everytime you feel like it. Whatever it takes man. Follow your whims. If you're faced with two potential ships to capture, and one is obviously a richer haul than the other, pursue the lesser vessel because you "like the cut of its sails" or "just feel like that's the one for me, boys." Nothing says chaotic like your clothes. Throw the dress-code out the window for your crew, but institute strict weapon and ship maintainence policies. Let your crew do whatever they want, so long as they're fit to fight and sail. A few basic tenants to follow, and then they can do what suits them too. That help any?
Cantankerous One 03-07-05, 10:19 PM	My opinion: the leader creates flexible rules, and does not abide by them all the time. "Everyone gets a ration of one pint of ale a day," can be a rule that is maintained, but a chaotic character may see to it that Gary, who is feeling under the weather, will get a little bit more, or that Kerry, who was cheeky to the captain, doesn't get any. A lawful leader might just give one pint, no matter what.
Thorak 03-07-05, 10:50 PM	Chaotics can easily be leaders. You just aren't one that relies on meticulous orders. Make sure everyone in the crew knows their duties. Sure, you'll be bellowing commands, but that's not to boss them around, but to let them know your wishes. So, when you yell out "Take us about, we're goin' after that there ship!", everyone knows what needs to be done to take the ship about. You're less issuing commands and more providing a direction. It's the equivalent of a chaotic party leader saying "we'll go down the left-hand tunnel." He's not controlling anyone, he's just guiding their collective efforts, so that they don't get confused. Chaotics lead by example and suggestion rather than heavy-handed orders. And, like others, have a code if you like, but break it if you like. To paraphrase Pirates of the Caribbean; "The code's more of a guideline than a rule..."
Braids 03-07-05, 10:53 PM	Hmm, well, when I think of a Chaotic minded leader who acted lawful when dealing with others, I think of Mussolini. He was a strict dictator, but was fickle and only followed the laws that suited him at the moment. And even though he thought chaotic, he was somewhat good at leading his people. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to offend you by comparing your character to Mussolini, I'm just saying that I'd have played such a character like Mussolini.
The Wasp 03-07-05, 11:15 PM	This boils down to a discussion on the very ill defined nature of chaos. There are two flavors of chaotic people, really: a person who disregards the rules of society, and an unreliable, inconsistent person personally, I lean towards the first, in which case being a pirate pretty much automatically qualifies you. I see no reason why a chaotic person can't lead a disciplined life - such as required by a sailor. In many cases, discipline is pragmatic, and a chaotic character is nothing if not pragmatic. Avoid chaotic stupidness - "ahoy mates! lets ram the rocks! 'cause i feel like it today!"
Bregalad 03-07-05, 11:25 PM	Good advice here, thanks all. Think Ill feel better when everyone turns to me and says "What now captain?" without feeling like I have to say "Heck, whatever you like!" (Im ok at sea its the land stuff that bothers me) Braids - No offense taken. As long as I do not end up hung upside down and spat upon by my own people, Ill be ok :) Would love to hear anyone else if you want to add.
ehrin 03-08-05, 12:20 AM	Your chaotic leader can be a bit capricious, do things more on a whim, as suggested. He could allow his members a LOT of freedom to make choices, in fact, trying to value everyone's contributions and do most of them, no matter how odd. Imagine letting the kindergarten kids run the classroom.... All suggestions are considered. He should lead by personal force and charisma: He should have lots of energy, and he should lead by doing... front of the attack, swinging in the lead, etc. he can have rules that apply to himself, and people who follow him. But, if you don't like the rules, then don't follow him. get out. leave. now. You go maintain your own freedom, elsewhere. Also remember, easy come, easy go. Live and let live. Kay cerra, cerra... Cest la vie. Society's rules aren't as important. One thing a chaotic leader would do is allow slaves to hold rank, allow "lesser races" to be trusted members of his crew, eat and drink with the ship hands, treat everyone with the respect they have earned, not the respect society says they should have. Remember, he doesn't care what society says about Orcs or Kobolds or Gergarians, all he cares about is that THIS orc or Gergarian saved his life, or is trustworthy, etc.. When i think of chaotic, i think of Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carib...
Habronicus 03-08-05, 02:56 AM	Any thoughts on how to be an effective leader and still remain chaotic? Bregalad, the reason why people have so much trouble understanding Alignment, and how it works in the game, is because it is poorly "labeled". Chaotic has very little to do with Chaos and Anarchy, like most people are led to believe. Chaotic people are simply selfish. They think by their own head and follow their own rule code, even if that goes against what is accepted by society. Some people (those who don't understand alignment) will quickly point out that being selfish is Evil, not Chaotic. This is wrong, and I'll use Robin Hood as an example: Robin Hood is the typical Chaotic Good character. He wants the good of the people, is an excelent leader, but can go on his own to save Lady Marian when she's in trouble. He's also on the wrong side of the law. However, if King Richard ever returns and takes his rightful place as King, do you have any doubts that Robin Hood would be his most loyal servant? *That* is what being Chaotic is all about. Sticking to your own rules and beliefs, even if that goes against what other people think or do. In other words, play your pirate as a militaristic genius if you want. He may brake a few rules of engagement and show no honor in battle, but he's just as organized and competent as a leader as anyone else.
Dartanel 03-08-05, 03:06 AM	No, Neutral people are selfish. Anyways, as to being a Chaotic Leader, simply resist the urge to Micromanage. A Chaotic type is often one to set things loose and see what happens. A Lawful ship captain would tell everyone their tasks and issue orders to each individual crewmember, while a chaotic leader would more likely set a goal for the crew and let them have at. I.E. Lawful ship captain: "Helm, bring us about North by Northeast. Rigging, unfurl all sails. Gunners, load bow chasers... etc." Chaotic ship captian: "Get that boat!"
Lina_Inverse 03-08-05, 08:31 AM	Bregalad, the reason why people have so much trouble understanding Alignment, and how it works in the game, is because it is poorly "labeled". Chaotic has very little to do with Chaos and Anarchy, like most people are led to believe. Chaotic people are simply selfish. They think by their own head and follow their own rule code, even if that goes against what is accepted by society. Some people (those who don't understand alignment) will quickly point out that being selfish is Evil, not Chaotic. This is wrong, and I'll use Robin Hood as an example: Robin Hood is the typical Chaotic Good character. He wants the good of the people, is an excelent leader, but can go on his own to save Lady Marian when she's in trouble. He's also on the wrong side of the law. However, if King Richard ever returns and takes his rightful place as King, do you have any doubts that Robin Hood would be his most loyal servant? *That* is what being Chaotic is all about. Sticking to your own rules and beliefs, even if that goes against what other people think or do. In other words, play your pirate as a militaristic genius if you want. He may brake a few rules of engagement and show no honor in battle, but he's just as organized and competent as a leader as anyone else. wrong,chaotic people are invidualists.they respect the indivdual.overly selfish is an evil trait.good is being rather selfless. anyways.your chaotic,what does this mean? your not predictable. you value inviduals over groups. you think hard and fast rules are stifleing. you trust emotion over logic. so act on your charecters emotions,if he takes a fancy to some lass overdo it.untill the emotion dies off. always lead by example,your crew are chaotic too most likely,they prolly only follow you because they want to.
Black Knight Geno 03-08-05, 02:09 PM	Some good chaotic aligned examples: Robin Hood (you know, 'Rob the rich to feed the poor') Jack Sparrow (from Pirates of the Caribian (yes, :censored: I KNOW IT IS MISSPELLED!)) The main character in the DIE HARD TRILOGY ME! Need I go on?
Draco Strang 03-08-05, 06:31 PM	Jack Sparrow is Chaotic Stupid.
Twofingers 03-08-05, 07:05 PM	your chaotic neutral, right? you live by your wit. right? so, to set the rules for your boat, just put the rule down that they will do what you say, not what you do. :D Twofingers, hafling rogue may your purse be ever full, and my hands ever quick. corpses dont need money anyways
HypnoticMonk 03-08-05, 07:47 PM	Be the type of leader who leads by spurring on the men by bravery "Cap'n Zack is a fine man, and i'd follow him thru the gates of hell, yar!" You can still set the course and make the decisions... and if things aren't getting done to your satisfaction, hire a second mate who is organized and who can lay the law down and do any micromanaging that might need done (a.k.a. a bastard who doesnt care if he is liked just so he is respected )
Habronicus 03-09-05, 05:59 AM	*sigh* This is what I mean by people who don't understand how alignment works. No, Neutral people are selfish. By that definition, all Animals would be selfish, but other non-neutral being wouldn't :rolleyes: Being selfish means having a "me first" attitude. Chaotic Good people fight for what they want, but avoid harming other people (specially if they're innocent). Chaotic Evil people fight for what they want, but have no concern for what happens to others in the process. Anyways, as to being a Chaotic Leader, simply resist the urge to Micromanage. A Chaotic type is often one to set things loose and see what happens. A Lawful ship captain would tell everyone their tasks and issue orders to each individual crewmember, while a chaotic leader would more likely set a goal for the crew and let them have at. I.E. Lawful ship captain: "Helm, bring us about North by Northeast. Rigging, unfurl all sails. Gunners, load bow chasers... etc." Chaotic ship captian: "Get that boat!" Terrible example. A Kobold (Lawful Evil) would just as easily say "Get that boat" instead of micromanaging the event. You're confusing Alignment with Efficiency. A Chaotic leader is just as capable as a Lawful one. The difference is that a Lawful leader would do what is expected of him (respecting rules of engagement, for instance), while a Chaotic leader would simply go for the most efficient tactic available. wrong,chaotic people are invidualists.they respect the indivdual.overly selfish is an evil trait.good is being rather selfless. Unfortunately, you're the one who's wrong. As I explained above, good people can be selfish too. How they act towards others, in search to fulfill their agenda, is what defines if they're good, evil, or something in between. anyways.your chaotic,what does this mean? your not predictable. True, to a point. you value inviduals over groups. False. Chaotic people value both individuals AND groups, as long as they think like them, or defend similar values as they do. you think hard and fast rules are stifleing. False. They make their own rules, or follow only those rules that make sense to them, and they can be very strict about it. you trust emotion over logic. Again, false. Like the above poster, you're confusing personality traits with alignment. If anything, it would be the other way around because some Lawful characters (like the Paladin) may be emotionally bound by their faith and beliefs, while Chaotic characters go by what's logical in their heads. ... I have no intention to start an alignment discussion here (we have enough of that), nor do I find flame wars productive for the topic, but I've studied the effects and meaning of alignment in D&D, and if you're going to say "you're wrong", without solid/logical reasoning, then expect to have your arguements rebuked.
mcnoo 03-09-05, 06:38 AM	Chaotic leaders will be the ones who tend to have a crew who's fanatically loyal because they actually like them. You believe all your crew are free men, you're their best friend, you just organise andco-ordinate proceedings, you're not "in charge". The crew won't disobey you because you're not giving orders, just asking favours from friends. They won't desert you, you're such a great bloke, they know you'd figh to the death for THEM.
Heahengel 03-09-05, 07:39 AM	Habronicus, I have to disagree with you when you say that chaotic characters are selfish. I think the PHB is pretty clear about this. "Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obidience to authority, and reliability. . . . "Chaotic" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. Neutral Evil is described as the most selfish: "she is out for herself, pure and simple." A Lawful Evil character "methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts." Also, "good" is connected to an idea of selflessness: "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." To look at your example, Robin Hood is the typical Chaotic Good character. He wants the good of the people, is an excelent leader, but can go on his own to save Lady Marian when she's in trouble. He's also on the wrong side of the law. However, if King Richard ever returns and takes his rightful place as King, do you have any doubts that Robin Hood would be his most loyal servant? *That* is what being Chaotic is all about. Sticking to your own rules and beliefs, even if that goes against what other people think or do. In other words, play your pirate as a militaristic genius if you want. He may brake a few rules of engagement and show no honor in battle, but he's just as organized and competent as a leader as anyone else. I mostly agree with this, but I don't understand how this is selfish. "Sticking to your own rules and beliefs, even if that goes against what other people think or do" is certainly a good definition of being chaotic, but ignoring societal convention is not being selfish. I have a feeling that we are just not using the work 'selfish' in the same way. On the other hand, I don't agree with the idea that being chaotic necessarilly implies that you are random. You can be both organized and chaotic at the same time, so giving orders in battle would not be 'lawful'. Sailing a ship requires a degree of organization and cooperation, and specific orders. To me, alignment is about a charcters ideology, whereas organization is a character trait.
Habronicus 03-09-05, 08:03 AM	Habronicus, I have to disagree with you when you say that chaotic characters are selfish. -SNIP- I mostly agree with this, but I don't understand how this is selfish. "Sticking to your own rules and beliefs, even if that goes against what other people think or do" is certainly a good definition of being chaotic, but ignoring societal convention is not being selfish. I have a feeling that we are just not using the work 'selfish' in the same way. You are probably right. I don't like to use this as an excuse but, for the record, english is not my first language, so that may explain something. To me, "selfish" does mean "me first" or "my way is the right way", but that's not necessarily a negative trait. It only becomes "Evil" when you're willing to step on others to help yourself. On the other hand, I don't agree with the idea that being chaotic necessarilly implies that you are random. You can be both organized and chaotic at the same time, so giving orders in battle would not be 'lawful'. Sailing a ship requires a degree of organization and cooperation, and specific orders. To me, alignment is about a charcters ideology, whereas organization is a character trait. I agree. Which is why I mentioned that Alignment in D&D has a "label" problem. Chaos may imply Anarchy, but in D&D terms, being Chaotic doesn't mean your character is Anarchic. People confuse the two because the PHB doesn't explain the difference. And thank you for discussing your point intelligently :)
Clawhound 03-09-05, 11:50 AM	Alignment collides the ideas of personality, worlview, cosmic allegiance, society, and relationship into one big gooey mess. Running a ship is not necessarily lawful, even if there are rules. "Anyone caught stealing food will be keelhauled." That's strict, but if you are on a long voyage and need to conserve your food, it's good sense. Don't confuse good sense with being lawful. The rules from running a ship have more to do with good sense (you need a cooperative crew) than with lawfulness/chaoticsness (measures of alignment). IMHO, you are the Captain and you are in charge. The men must have faith in you to follow you. As long as you lead them well and make sure that they get food in their bellies and a share of the treasure, they'll love you. You don't demand a perfectly regimented ship, but when danger comes, you are large and in charge, and the ship better work. That's why you are the captain: you make sure that the things that need to happen actually happen. They're a chaotic lot and need supervising. As long as a crewmember pulls his weight, he's welcome. When he doesn't, you have no need for him, and you'll boot him off at the next port of call, or whatever shorline is in swimming distance. You don't need to be erratic or insane or arbitrary, unless that fits your character. You do need to keep your promises, as that's the only thing binding the crew to you. If you promise to "feed them, give them a share of the treasure, and let have last pick of the women," and they don't get it, don't expect them to stay your crew. A CE pirate would betray his crew, but a CN pirate wants his ship to thrive and prosper with the best crew that he can get. (It's all about us.) A CG pirate would only raid enemy ships, and even then, leave the women and children unharmed. A CN pirate may let a little rape and slaughter happen, but really, it's all about the loot.
Lina_Inverse 03-10-05, 07:56 AM	You are probably right. I don't like to use this as an excuse but, for the record, english is not my first language, so that may explain something. To me, "selfish" does mean "me first" or "my way is the right way", but that's not necessarily a negative trait. It only becomes "Evil" when you're willing to step on others to help yourself. then your neutral.me first but i really dont like the idea of hurting others. evil is,me first.end of story. good is,i will sacrafice for the good of someone i dont know. law is,groups and rules are the most effective way to do things. neutral is,whatever works a balence between the two is best,or a complete focus on the moral one chaos is,inviduals and emotions are the most effective way to do things. that is alingment in a nutshell.
Delphinium 03-10-05, 06:33 PM	No, Neutral people are selfish. :nonono: :noway: :banghead: This drives me absolutely nuts. :twitch:
Dartanel 03-11-05, 01:37 AM	:nonono: :noway: :banghead: This drives me absolutely nuts. :twitch: How so? It's what neutrals are. You have the ho-hum everyday I don't really care that much about anything neutrals. Selfish in that they don't really care to waste their energy on things that don't directly concern themselves. You have the 'Greater Good' Neutrals, the ones who think they can serve good by committing evil acts. Selfish in that they in the end are taking the easy path for their cause. You have the 'Balance Fiend' neutrals. The ones who espouse a cause which is inherently amoral. Ok, not really selfish, just insane. And that really covers neutral as a whole. It's defining traits are either laziness or self-absorption.
Kulthos 03-11-05, 01:45 AM	Chaotic leaders are suprisingly common. Read Dilbert or work in an office.
pres_man 03-11-05, 08:41 AM	chaotic leaders tend to hypocrites. lawful leaders tend not to be. "What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander." generally has no meaning to chaotics.
simen_88 03-11-05, 09:06 AM	Direct democracy is quite a good way to run a ship in a chaotic way.
Heahengel 03-11-05, 10:16 AM	chaotic leaders tend to hypocrites. lawful leaders tend not to be. "What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander." generally has no meaning to chaotics. I don't agree that hypocrisy is a chaotic trait. For example, the PHB gives an example of an LE trait - having a particular taboo or personal code "such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it). . . . They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains." That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Delphinium 03-11-05, 02:02 PM	You have the ho-hum everyday I don't really care that much about anything neutrals. Selfish in that they don't really care to waste their energy on things that don't directly concern themselves.They may care deeply about something. There is no telling what though. They don't behave irrationally, but don't feel obligated to follow rules other people make, especially if those rules make no logical sence. What they consider evil may not fit in the conventions of what society considers evil, but they will have a rational basis for their belief. You have the 'Greater Good' Neutrals, the ones who think they can serve good by committing evil acts. Selfish in that they in the end are taking the easy path for their cause.This isn't neutral, this is irrational and insane and therefore chaotic.You have the 'Balance Fiend' neutrals. The ones who espouse a cause which is inherently amoral. Ok, not really selfish, just insane.which is chaotic right?And that really covers neutral as a whole. It's defining traits are either laziness or self-absorption.I am neither lazy nor self absorbed. I work very hard to make life better for those around me. I've got a 3.927 GPA. I often choose to forgo my own pleasure, time and resources for others. I am not a saint though. A bit of hedonistic pleasure behind closed doors is nobody's business by mine and my husband's, who I am loyal to. But I also won't turn down a free drink, if the man is decent looking and fairly polite. And I'm loyal to my friends and family. They call and I'll be there with a check in hand if they need it. I am not greedy or very hard to please, but I appreciate fine things, especially fine art and good food. I'd like everyone to be happy, but I am not willing to force my ideals of happiness on anyone else, or let them force their morals on me. While the band plays I dance (as long as my knees hold out.) I argue with the missonaries that knock on my door, neglecting to tell them I really do believe in God. I give money to street musicans. I hang up on charities that call me on the phone. I don't respect positions, I respect people, and if you want my respect you have to earn it. I think love is always worth the risk, and I wouldn't trade the highs to avoid the lows. I am true neutral. What were those defining traits again?
Delphinium 03-11-05, 02:08 PM	"What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander." generally has no meaning to chaotics.Sure is does. Take this classic example. Adultry is against the law. The man commits adultry. The wife finds out and says to herself "sause for the goose," then proceeds to break the law by having an affair of her own. ;)
BW0222 03-11-05, 02:35 PM	>Any thoughts on how to be an effective leader and still remain chaotic? Alignments are general "big-picture" views of the world. Chaotic doesn't mean super disorganizated at a personal level, nor does lawful mean a completely organized like a robot. For a chaotic person neutral, you may not like big organizations, complex trade laws, etc. You tend to favor personal freedom. That doesn't mean you are lazy, sloppy, disorganized, unstable, insane, or that you don't accept personal responsibilty. In fact, you likely value personal responsibility. If you are the captain, you know you have responsiblities to keep the ship going, fine. Keeping accurate logs, manifests, crew assignments, etc. is all part of keeping the ship functioning. However, you are less likely how it is done, as long as it is done. Complex schedules, uniforms, drills, rules, punishments, etc. aren't needed beyond the basics if folks are getting their assignments done. You likely don't care if someone eats in their bunk as long as they don't make a mess or leave crumbs for the rats. Top buttons being done up doesn't affect Fred rigging the sails, so you don't care. You don't care if Sam and Joe switch watches as long as they get some one is on watch duty. You likely don't have rules unless rules are needed. If folks are always back in time for the ship to sail, you likely don't have charts showing pay reductions for being late. Punishments are likely straightforeward and discretionary. If someone is late because they were attacked, you won't dock them pay. If someone is late because they were drunk, 2 gold. Rules are likely flexible. Typically, a chaotic group are fairly independant and get along because they just do what is needed, and not necessarily what is expected. You won't scold someone for not picking up a rope (even if it is his task), if someone else pickup out the rope anyway. Folks likely have a fair amount of personal freedom. Shore leave might have few restrictions, folks are willing to sign on/off the ship if they wish, you might bonus the crew, they can decide their own way of dividing their share or assigning duties, etc. Most folks will serve out of respect rather than rules, fear, or duty. Chaotic neutral may mean you are selfish, but that shouldn't mean stupid, ignorant, or untrustworthy. Hiding loot from the crew (and denying them their bonuses) isn't necessary the best thing for you.
Dartanel 03-11-05, 09:06 PM	I am neither lazy nor self absorbed. I work very hard to make life better for those around me. I've got a 3.927 GPA. I often choose to forgo my own pleasure, time and resources for others. I am not a saint though. A bit of hedonistic pleasure behind closed doors is nobody's business by mine and my husband's, who I am loyal to. But I also won't turn down a free drink, if the man is decent looking and fairly polite. And I'm loyal to my friends and family. They call and I'll be there with a check in hand if they need it. I am not greedy or very hard to please, but I appreciate fine things, especially fine art and good food. I'd like everyone to be happy, but I am not willing to force my ideals of happiness on anyone else, or let them force their morals on me. While the band plays I dance (as long as my knees hold out.) I argue with the missonaries that knock on my door, neglecting to tell them I really do believe in God. I give money to street musicans. I hang up on charities that call me on the phone. I don't respect positions, I respect people, and if you want my respect you have to earn it. I think love is always worth the risk, and I wouldn't trade the highs to avoid the lows. I am true neutral. What were those defining traits again? You're Neutral Good. Ethically you are neutral, taking the path of least resistance. Hedonism is not a non-good trait. Nor is any part of your behavior.
Delphinium 03-13-05, 09:13 AM	You're Neutral Good. Ethically you are neutral, taking the path of least resistance. Hedonism is not a non-good trait. Nor is any part of your behavior. :thinks: I guess I'd like to be good, but in all honestly know I am likely to fall short far too often. Its the deeds, downfalls I left out that move me out of the relm of good. Like anyone, I'd rather not reveal/admit those to the world at large, the times the path of least resistance led me to behave without regard for others. Knowing what is good, then not choosing it... Knowing what is evil, and then not choosing it...