Post/Author/DateTime	Post
interpretivechaos 08-18-05, 10:14 PM	I play a Chaotic Neutral Bard. The rest of my party plays Munchkins of Doom, who can shrug off and deal more damage then I ever could. The DM is a good friend of mine- in the bad way of course. Out of game we constantly engage in good nature banter, trying to bring each other to each others way of thinking. So, one of these issues is Chaotic Neutral. He seems to believe that Good is the only alignment that a hero can be. "If you want to play a Chaotic Neutral bard, that's alright by me. Just know that everyone else won't take kindly when you don't act good, and the paladin might smite you."- My DM, in all seriousness. My gaming group sadly seems to be oriented around power gaming. Vow of Poverty monk, Saint Cleric, Desmodu Vow of Poverty Monk cohort who spent the starting money on permanent spells, Sorceror Fatespinner Initiate of the Seven Veils. And me, the Chaotic Neutral Bard with an AC of 21 and 68 hit points. With a level 8 warmage cohort. The idea is that I handle everything subtle, because hey I'm a bard and I can't do anything else. Anyway, aside from that large annoyance, I even tend to be more manipulatively good then the rest of the party, but the DM refuses to accept it. Contracts of Nepthas to force surrendering enemies into servitude for 5 years is evil, while shooting them after they surrendered isn't. Yes my DM hates my character. Anyway the point of this entire post was to ask: Any tips for dealing with my situation. I'd love to be busy using my ungodly amount of low level changelings to take over some place, but the DM hints that that would be unwise, and I am wary enough of a fireball (And protective of my followers, something the rest of the party doesn't seem to grasp.... "Why don't you send your familiar through the mysterious portal?") Any tips to thwart the thwarting of my character?
loaba 08-18-05, 10:29 PM	Gimme some help here, what are some other actions that you have performed in previous sessions? As a CN, Good and Evil mean nothing to you, and Order (Law) is anathema. When making decisions, you can pretty much go whichever way you like, though you would naturally avoid patterns and routines. Probably the one constant motivator you have is your own current need, whatever you perceive that to be at any given moment.
Shashu X 08-18-05, 10:51 PM	The best advice I can think of is to talk to the group about your concerns. If this dosn't work then you should consider finding a different group to play with. Anyway, aside from that large annoyance, I even tend to be more manipulatively good then the rest of the party, but the DM refuses to accept it. Contracts of Nepthas to force surrendering enemies into servitude for 5 years is evil, while shooting them after they surrendered isn't. Your group is just being jerks. Find a group who actually cares about the game and not just killing monsters.
interpretivechaos 08-18-05, 11:27 PM	I've tried bluffing the bad guy into surrendering while under the influence of Glibness. His fodder was being completely annihilated. He proceeded to wave his hands threateningly at me, so I ducked behind a pillar. Technically I would have had no sucess because I didn't take long enough, but neither of us knew that at the time, so the DM assigned a -40 modifier for the situation BECAUSE his fodder was being cut down and he was under attack. I've been caught in a dual fireball with near max damage, that the DM mistakenly used to try and kill a monk with improved evasion. I died (-13 hp) but the DM allowed the cleric to heal me through greater status. I spent the battle reading through D&D books until he decided to do the time warp and do this though. I've tried to convince the soldiers who were vacating the castle to let us use it as a base. One of my other PC friends (A druid) was planning on using wall of stone to repair the castle walls, so quote me "I say to the guard, in a half-joking manner "Of course we'll want reimbursement for repairing the castle" The nobleman seems angry "Perhaps you should leave now" Oh, and we had just turned down a 5,000 gp reward for the first part. And another character, that leads into this. A level 10 diviner. On the boat ride to the campaign I used Contact other Plane to find out as much as possible. I would ask the same question several times to different resources to improve my chances of getting the correct answer. Finally the DM started answering "Irrelevant" to any questions I asked. "Because according to the gods, it really isn't important, and it's one of the listed answers" Of course, to be fair, this if after my friend pointed out that A one word answer could be the true name of the demon we were fighting. Anyway, after an anti-magic gem exploded for 20 damage + 10 d6 for being flung into a tree without a saving throw, killing my character except for some creative use of untrained tumble to lower the damage so I survived, I retired the character. He thought his use of irrelevant was fair (Because he answered the first bit of my questions) and that it's a stupid idea to bang talking anti-magic gems with the face of a demon on them against rocks, because the staff of the Magi blows up when it is broken. Yeah, I am slightly bitter, but I am determined to continue because, A) I know them all and they all are friends, even if they see no problem turning my character into bloody pulps and b) because I've decided that my goal for this character is to make all the BBEGs and choice PCs into helping me in my goals of gaining enough wealth and influence to forcibly convert the campaign into a tactical guild war campaign. If I don't blow up stepping on any glowing purple rocks. So what I really want is (once again, yes I am bitter) a way to achieve all my CN objectives, without being smited by the DM (Who refuses to admit that he has at all biased against my character "Because it's stupid to smash talking anti-magic gems against rocks to punish them for being stupid.) The PCs don't really want to kill me, though neither exactly are they tolerant of non-good acts. And unfortunately I can't rely on the DM going with me in hiding my intents from the party (As I do have Undetectable Alignment, and I do have a 21 base bluff score, so I can lie to them pretty darn well.) So any tips on having fun with minimum smiting from the DM.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-19-05, 06:44 AM	Unfortunately, the best advice that can be given is: find more mature players. You obviously have outgrown adolescent power fantasies. Don't get me wrong, it's a valid style of play... But you're looking for Final Fantasy while the rest are still playing Doom III
Cymraegmorgan 08-19-05, 06:56 AM	interpretivechaos, have you never heard of the concept of Party Alignment? At character creation, alignment issues should be discussed and the entire party should agree on an appropriate alignment range. Your DM and the rest of the group seem to understand this from the tone of your first post. You are the disruption point. Retire your CN PC and roll up a new character that fits the tone of the group. Or find another group. "If you want to play a Chaotic Neutral bard, that's alright by me. Just know that everyone else won't take kindly when you don't act good, and the paladin might smite you."- My DM, in all seriousness. I, as a DM, have said similar things, and meant every word. The least you could have done, after the fair warning was play a CG Bard.
The_Ditto 08-19-05, 07:56 AM	So any tips on having fun with minimum smiting from the DM. You know .. I hate to say this ... ... no, really, I really hate to say this. Play a Frenzied Berserker ... :rolleyes: That'll learn 'em ... heh (I hate to say it cause I hate Frenzied Berserkers .. but methinks you are in one of those campaigns where it fits perfectly!!) Hey .. no worries, they're all munchkinized so much, it's unlikely you kill any of them "by accident" ... heh Oh yeah, and be sure to play C-G ... :P
Koga:The ninja trick 08-19-05, 02:45 PM	Both in and out of character this little comment will give it to your play group straight. "We can't all be God.." Their hella munckining makes them nigh onimpetant, ofcourse they can afford to be goody-two-shoes, so could Superman.. You on the power scale, are well below average, they as good aligned creatures need to understand the hardknock life if they're ever to differantrate evil from just some jerk who's angery at life.. What paladin would smite a chaotic neutral guy? His smite wouldn't work, the guy wasn't EVIL. Just NOT NICE.. Besides, he's an ally, you want to avoid betraying allies as much as possible, even lawful EVIL people know that.. The Koga thinks your friends suffer from a serious case of Final Tunnel Syndrome. They've played far too much Final Fantasy, and now think games are all about using +5 vorpal swords against Bell of the first level of Hell only to get the key to unlock the red wyrm's horde of treasure so they can get the magick item to rip Belial and Lady Fierra a new one.. You're a much better guy then The Koga is, he'd be a PK and just about destroy all divine casters. Untill people learn to play paladins/rangers without spells and stop the cleric/druid madness damnit! :P
Gedrin 08-19-05, 03:58 PM	If I understand correctly, everyone but you is a munchkin and is against you. Now, this may be true. Usually, it's either a matter if difference in taste, the one person wants something the others either don't want or dislike, Or the one person is actually being probematic in some way. While it sounds, from what you say, like there may be some differences in play style, which is fine, and a prejudice against your characters in particular, which isn't fine, there is also this bit... You seem to have a plan to force the game into a different type of play than is currently going on. I'd normally just chalk it up to,"You want different things than they do", but the idea of wanting to "forcibly convert the campaign" is normally one I associate with a problem player. I could be completely wrong, but my gut-check says you're the one guy in the group playing a character that isn't in line with the style, theme or direction of the game, and you want to make the game go a direction of your own desire. It just may be that trying to convince every bad guy to surrender, spamming divinations at everything, trying to create an army of geased servants, and banging magic items against rocks have worn on the players and DM. Again, I could be wrong, but it might be that you're the guy trying to ice skate up hill all the time, and over time, it's just gotten old. From what you say at face value, you're the group's kicking dog for some reason. However, some of what you say gives me a feeling that maybe the reason you're getting kicked is that you're usually the guy going agaist the flow.
q'afuu 08-19-05, 04:54 PM	Vow of Poverty monk, Saint Cleric, Desmodu Vow of Poverty Monk cohort who spent the starting money on permanent spells, Sorceror Fatespinner Initiate of the Seven Veils. And me, the Chaotic Neutral Bard with an AC of 21 and 68 hit points. With a level 8 warmage cohort. You, a bard (presumably with high Cha) have a level 8 cohort while another cleric has a Desmodu Monk cohort? A 12 HD, regular LA +2 Desmodu? With class levels (one, at least)? Yeah, you got gipped.
DragonDeadite 08-19-05, 06:41 PM	:twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: I REALLY hate alignment restrictions. Any alignment can get along with every other alignment. Even CE with a LG if they're motivated correctly. That is up to the DM. And not every single hero is friggin GOOD!!! Man... these kind of posts just make me sick sometimes. Look, if you don't want to play a munchkin, then find another group. If a DM isn't willing to play fair dispite your alignment, then yeah, you have no business being there. BTW: Level 8 warmage is an AWESOME accent to your bard. Between the two of you you make a high level wizardthat's casting two spells a round. I couldn't think of better combo for magic user!!
interpretivechaos 08-19-05, 08:45 PM	According to a member of the group, the epic level handbooks states that LA is added to character level, but you do not get hit dice. Thus the 6 level monk desmodu has the ability of the Desmodu... The DM allowed it, though if there's been a misinterpretation, it might be revoked. Something I really do want to point out, even as I vent my frustration, the DM is new. So, even though he believes he is completely right on a bunch of those issues, I'll cut him slack and not leave the party. So, yeah, I'm really sore about the things, but I know my DM well enough that even if he won't agree with me, he probably will make improvements because 1) He's new and 2) He's stubborn enough he won't admit defeat even if he's been mostly convinced. interpretivechaos, have you never heard of the concept of Party Alignment? At character creation, alignment issues should be discussed and the entire party should agree on an appropriate alignment range. Your DM and the rest of the group seem to understand this from the tone of your first post. You are the disruption point. Retire your CN PC and roll up a new character that fits the tone of the group. Or find another group. In my experience, party conflict has been just another part of the game. My first character (2nd edition enchanter) tried to hyptnotize the other PC to convince them to help me in the storyline. She called the guards, I ended up wasting my hypnosis on the guards and we both got thrown in jail. Yes, that was extreme, and I don't want to engage in flat out party warfare (despite my comment about getting some Contracts of Nepthas, which was really only a security plan for me). But inter-party conflict is a good part of role-playing, and I do admit I enjoyed even the inter-party warfare, despite the need for a new character before we re-engaged in the storyline. So working together as a mindless do-gooder bashing in evils head doesn't exactly appeal to me- If I was LG, I'd want people of differing enough alignment just because it makes it more interesting and is a basis of good RPing between characters. Or the one person is actually being probematic in some way. While it sounds, from what you say, like there may be some differences in play style, which is fine, and a prejudice against your characters in particular, which isn't fine, there is also this bit... You seem to have a plan to force the game into a different type of play than is currently going on. I'd normally just chalk it up to,"You want different things than they do", but the idea of wanting to "forcibly convert the campaign" is normally one I associate with a problem player. I could be completely wrong, but my gut-check says you're the one guy in the group playing a character that isn't in line with the style, theme or direction of the game, and you want to make the game go a direction of your own desire. It just may be that trying to convince every bad guy to surrender, spamming divinations at everything, trying to create an army of geased servants, and banging magic items against rocks have worn on the players and DM. Again, I could be wrong, but it might be that you're the guy trying to ice skate up hill all the time, and over time, it's just gotten old. From what you say at face value, you're the group's kicking dog for some reason. However, some of what you say gives me a feeling that maybe the reason you're getting kicked is that you're usually the guy going agaist the flow. There is probably a fair bit of truth in that statement. The name of the game is Role-playing, and I really don't think the point of the game is mindless conformity. I utilised a fair bit of hyperbole (As I was really frustrated). Some of the items (The dual fireball that was trying to kill the monk) the DM apologized for. He hadn't realized I was in the area affect when he cast it. Ironically again, I must say as of yet the best RPer in the party was the paladin. He was RPing a Gung-ho paladin personality, and making it flavourful and interesting. His character is balanced, and I'd love to actually role-play with him, something that hasn't really happened yet. (Another note- we've had two gaming sessions in this campaign- so there is a big chance things will change, or I just saw a concerned new DM freak out over me) The Cleric is the worst member of the party (IMO). We didn't have a cleric at first, so the DM made a deal that the cleric would get an extra level. Then he threw on the Saint Template (And I don't think he really understood what he was doing, because now he's scheming for anything he can do to harm the cleric) So ECL 13 among lvl 10, with gobs of exalted feats. The Druid is playing a halfdragon. He's new and played a back role in the game as of yet. He cast hurl fire while sitting back and watching. The monk was RPed by the same person who played the cleric, in much the same style. I have yet to meet hhe actual player for the character, but yeah, vow of poverty was involved and he seems to be the toughest member of the party. The Sorceror is a power-gamer, and he'll be the first to admit it. But, he's also a decent RPer, and has stood with me as we tried to convince the DM to our side of things. And for now I am admittedly playing CG. I did change my alignment, though since my alignment doesn't matter for anything in gameplay mechanics now, I really don't care which side of Chaotic Non-evil my character is. I fully intend to show compassion and mercy (or at least mercy) while I work to whatever I find interesting. But the character was concieved as an oppurtunitist, a knowledge seeker who followed his heart, and his lust for adventure. As for wanting to change the campaign, I had meant merely that I wanted to developa collection of NPC resources that I lead that would be self sufficient resource wise, and a valuable resource for large scale investigation (And for the record, the majority of my followers are changeling thiefs, so spies.) And Dragon Deadite, I completely agree with you, and thanks :D
Lion's Shield 08-19-05, 09:20 PM	According to a member of the group, the epic level handbooks states that LA is added to character level, but you do not get hit dice. Thus the 6 level monk desmodu has the ability of the Desmodu... The DM allowed it, though if there's been a misinterpretation, it might be revoked. Something I really do want to point out, even as I vent my frustration, the DM is new. So, even though he believes he is completely right on a bunch of those issues, I'll cut him slack and not leave the party. So, yeah, I'm really sore about the things, but I know my DM well enough that even if he won't agree with me, he probably will make improvements because 1) He's new and 2) He's stubborn enough he won't admit defeat even if he's been mostly convinced. (WARNING!!!If you ask me, since you say that this DM is new... I betcha anything that the other players (they are powergamers and/or munchkins after all) are filling this young DM's mind with false interpretations of the rtule of the game.... Whatever that one member of the group is telling him, A Desmodu shouldn't be anywhere near the PC lineup, ESPECIALLY in the case of cohorts! The Racial HD is simply WAY too high(it's not just about the Character levels and Level Adjustment y'know)) Unless this is game is higher level than level 8 (Did I miss something here? :confused: ) I highly suggest you bring this fact up come next session... Until next time, game on! :r: :w: :u:
Dragonsblood 08-19-05, 11:10 PM	One way that I imagine CN working, is as a sort of "anti-hero" like Wolverine, The Punisher, or Blade. These guys don't do heroic things to advance good in society, they do what they do out of hate for their enemy, who happens to be evil.
Gedrin 08-19-05, 11:48 PM	The name of the game is Role-playing, and I really don't think the point of the game is mindless conformity. See...there it is again, my gut kicking in. You seem to think that the choices are mindless conformity and going against the party and DM all the time. I've heard this kind of thing before from a player. He was always trying to go against the group. Always the guy who thought he was being picked on. That guy's now out of the group and in prison. Not saying you're going off the deep end like him. Just saying that you might want to carefully evaluate your position with regard to,"maybe there's something I'm doing to cause this". There's a middle ground in there somewhere. It may be that your DM is a novice. It may be that your group is twinked out (not that your group of changeling spies isn't a massively powerful resource). It may be that the DM has it in for you. It may also be that you're the one guy in the game having a problem, you're always the guy having a problem, and there's a reason for it. Personally, I like the idea of a character building a resource and information network. Generally, I expect it of the characters in my game. I'd have no problem with this. Of course, I also expect the PC's in my games to be compatable with the rest of the party...not mindlessly conforming, but compatable. Just bear in mind that if you're always playing the incompatable character...you're always being that guy. It's okay to be that guy sometimes, but don't be that guy all the time.
q'afuu 08-20-05, 07:32 AM	One way that I imagine CN working, is as a sort of "anti-hero" like Wolverine, The Punisher, or Blade. These guys don't do heroic things to advance good in society, they do what they do out of hate for their enemy, who happens to be evil. Not surprisingly, the three examples you mention are notorious loners who don't really like working in a team. Not the best concept for a D&D character.
Dragonsblood 08-20-05, 02:43 PM	Sure, Wolverine works well alone, but he is still a part of the X-Men. Blade wouldn't be Blade without Whistler. The Punisher....well ok he's pretty much always alone. Also keep in mind that almost all superheros work alone at points in their career. That doesn't mean they don't work well with others. And perhaps his character can be intrinsically introverted. Allowing his character to work past this could be a great role playing oppurtunity.
Teydyn 08-20-05, 03:12 PM	According to a member of the group, the epic level handbooks states that LA is added to character level, but you do not get hit dice. Thus the 6 level monk desmodu has the ability of the Desmodu... Just plain WRONG! A Monstrous PC has an ECL of "racial HD + LA + class levels". In this case "8 + 2 + 6" = 16 ? So, one of these issues is Chaotic Neutral. He seems to believe that Good is the only alignment that a hero can be. The boring kind of hero is goody goodshoe McGoodness. The more interesting kind is a bit deeper... neutral is no problem.
interpretivechaos 08-20-05, 03:53 PM	Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean you need to reject help. The only real part of RPing that would have you do that is a low wisdom score, something my character does not have. It merely means that his loyalties are outweighed by his survival instinct. My characters priorities are knowledge and mutual gain. He recognizes the advantage of working together, and not making enemies by tricking people out of their money. Of course self preservation out-weighs this, so he's not willing to become a martyr for someone elses mistakes. Anyway- I talked with my DM. We decided together to allow me to infiltrate the castle in our campaign, and set up a mechanism for determining the sucess of my group of spies without role-playing everything. So take my rantings with a grain of salt. I was extremely frustrated, but my DM is learning, so the outlook is getting better. Now I'm again looking forward to the next D&D session.
q'afuu 08-20-05, 09:11 PM	Sure, Wolverine works well alone, but he is still a part of the X-Men. Blade wouldn't be Blade without Whistler. The Punisher....well ok he's pretty much always alone. Also keep in mind that almost all superheros work alone at points in their career. That doesn't mean they don't work well with others. And perhaps his character can be intrinsically introverted. Allowing his character to work past this could be a great role playing oppurtunity. Wolverine is part of the X-men against his own nature (and goes off solo whenever he feels like it anyway). Whistler doesn't help Blade on the job, he helps out with it - by supplying stuff, not by kicking ass. All superheroes working alone at some points in their career doesn't make them CN. There is no causality. The other way around though, you'll find that those superheroes that are CN do work alone by preference - and the reason for that is that this attitude fits their character. Being introvert doesn't make you CN (or vice versa), or anything else. It just makes you introvert.
Templetroll 08-20-05, 09:38 PM	I agree with the point above that the GM may be being led astray by some of the other players. A new GM should start a campaign with lower level characters to match his skill, start the characters at 3rd or 5th if you want to improve their survival. He would do better to keep what is available for character creation to Core books or some others that he is very familiar with. After that he can bump characters up if he actually prefers to run higher level adventures. Also, if you want to prove the value of the style of game you want to play, run a game for them that does that.