Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neuneck 04-14-06, 05:05 AM	What's your favourite way to get a character's abilities? In our group we normally roll dice (if the result is too low we re-roll), which allows us to have really great scores, thus being able to handle with more difficult situations more easily and making out-of-game char. development (what skill to take...) more important, since the modification on the dice rolls are higher... i know there are the buying possibilities, but how do they turn out in game and what is over/underpowered?
Mitchell 04-14-06, 05:14 AM	My players like dice, so that's what we do. I'm trying to figure out a better way, using a dice roll as point buy method, but I have met with mixed results. I'm probably going to investigate an alternate point buy system and dispense with rolling altogether, use a modified 4d6 drop lowest, or just forget about the whole modification thing and go with 4d6 drop lowest.
Suzaku455 04-14-06, 08:43 AM	if it's 25 or 28 point buy I prefer rolling <.<
Pandaemoni 04-14-06, 09:33 AM	We tend to use dice (4d6 dropping lowest), but any set of six scores that turns out worse than a 28 point buy get rerolled from scratch. On one occasion a player had to roll four sets of scores before finding one that beat the 28 point buy, but generally it goes pretty fast. Scores lower that 8 are worth: Score Points 7 -2 6 -4 5 -8 4 -12 3 -16 That allows for some randomness in the scores, but ensures that everyone will have a character who is (roughly) as good or better than one generated using a 28 point buy. if it's 25 or 28 point buy I prefer rolling <.< Statistically speaking, a 28 point buy is slightly better than rolling 4d6, dropping lowest. A 25 point buy is just slightly under average for the 4d6 method. [Edit, actually re-doing the math roughly, a 28 point buy might be very slightly worse than rolling 4d6 on average, but it's very close).]
DarknessEternal 04-14-06, 09:44 AM	Statistically speaking, a 28 point buy is slightly better than rolling 4d6, dropping lowest. A 25 point buy is just slightly under average for the 4d6 method. Statistically speaking, you're incorrect. The average character generated by 4d6, drop lowest, is a 29 point character. You probably made an error assuming that since the average of 4k3 is 12.25 expanded over 6 stats equals 25 points. That only works in theory, since in actuallity, you can't roll 12.25. You can only roll whole numbers. If you create a simulation of rolling 6 stats on 4k3 some large number of times, you'll find that it averages a 29 point character.
Pandaemoni 04-14-06, 09:48 AM	Statistically speaking, you're incorrect. The average character generated by 4d6, drop lowest, is a 29 point character. You probably made an error assuming that since the average of 4k3 is 12.25 expanded over 6 stats equals 25 points. That only works in theory, since in actuallity, you can't roll 12.25. You can only roll whole numbers. If you create a simulation of rolling 6 stats on 4k3 some large number of times, you'll find that it averages a 29 point character. Drats I hoped to get my edit in before somene picked up on this. Oh well. You're right and I'm wrong.
Doc225 04-14-06, 09:58 AM	IMO, giving up that one point is worth the ability to customize the scores however I want. I don't have to have an 8, just because I rolled one. I can't have 2 18's either, but I'm ok with that.
celtredleg 04-14-06, 10:15 AM	I normal roll 4d6, but this game I am trying out point buy. I wioll see how it works out.
OravennasBrother 04-14-06, 11:31 AM	I've gone to point buy because the scores can get too extreme if I allow rolling. A fighter who can wade through all the CR appropriate enemies due to very high initial attribute rolls is not an enjoyable challenge. I should know, the first character I rolled for 3.0 was a straight Human Fighter with EVERY score at least 13 as well as a 16 Con and 17 Strength. Yes the DM watched the rolls. No it did not make it fun to play. The lack of challenge killed tha enjoyment. To avoid inflicting that same fate on other players, I go with point buy.
Aminar 04-14-06, 12:05 PM	I'm a big fan of characters with higher stats. At low level they are almost required to survive, and at high level most characters need good stats to keep up. Also most games Iv'e ever played in are low on magic stat boosters(We get cool weapons and Armor but didly for interesting stuff.), and low on money. So at high levels(when the game truly gets fun) the characters are back in line with the CR charts.
Thelandrach 04-14-06, 01:13 PM	My current campaign has used the 4d6, drop lowest system, and it's been plagued by some characters having high stats, some having very average stats, and some having a couple really good numbers and a couple numbers below 7. My next campaign will use a 32 point buy; I realize this is going to average a little higher than the die-rolling system, but the minimums are going to be higher, too, so there shall be much less whining.
Sjay1 04-14-06, 01:25 PM	32 point buy....I suppose, over here we all hate "low" stats.. but it's always better than having to confront your players with their rediculous "LUCKY" stats...18 18 18 16 16 8... why do they even bother to put the 8 in there I always wonder..
Otto the Bugbear 04-14-06, 01:35 PM	Each player rolls 4d6 / drop lowest, and thus generates a single ability score. The DM rolls the extras needed to get 6 ability scores if there are less than 6 players. The players then vote to keep the set of 6, or erase and roll over. The DM is casts the tie-breaking vote via a random roll/coin toss. If they vote yes, all characters start with the same 6 basic scores and arrange to wish, then adjust for racial and level boosts/penalties. This keeps the randomness of rolled ability score, while keeping everyone on even footing. Too many times, one character with equiv. 51 points is in the same group as soemone with equiv 25 points due to the randomness of each player rolling seperatly. This method also makes sure everyone is present when generating the party, so they can discuss party roles and what they'd like to have the group composed of. The DM needs only keep track of the starting scores, so when a character death happens, they can use the same abilities to bring in a new character. It also let's the DM get a really good feel for what power-level the players really want to have. If they vote yes for the scores 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8, then it's pretty standard. If they vote no, then they want a little higher power game. So far, it's worked out great for me. I've used it twice as DM, and played in another group where we did it this way also. But, I must mention one member of these boards tried it with his group and they rolled phenomenally good, ending up with something like 18, 17, 17, 17, 16, 14. They voted 'yes', but it threw the power curve way off for that DM. Just be forewarned. Cheers Otto :)
General_Ridley 04-14-06, 01:36 PM	I liked my old DMs method. roll 1 set of scores, then roll another. from here, you have 2 options: 1) choose one of the sets, and re-roll a single score from that set. you take that result and then apply the stats. 2) cross out one set, and roll a third. choose one of the two you have left.
DarknessEternal 04-14-06, 01:40 PM	Each player rolls 4d6 / drop lowest, and thus generates a single ability score. The DM rolls the extras needed to get 6 ability scores if there are less than 6 players. This is a brilliant idea. If only there were some chance I could get my group to do this before I invent cold fusion, but it doesn't seem likely.
00_Whupass 04-14-06, 02:20 PM	25 point buy FTW. Of course I tend to love the challenge of survivability and percieved weakness. Also my interest in a game peaks somewhere between level 1 and 5, tapering off after that point. I know this isn't the norm but its definately how I approach the game, as a DM I recognize that this isn't the way most players like to play and therefore adjust things to maximize everyone's fun.
Illion the Red 04-14-06, 04:53 PM	I usually go with some form of point-buy. the craziest method I have used was a combonation of rolling and point-buy. (This was designed to make outrageously powerful characters). 17d6=# of points you get to use for point-buy...
Bulletproof_Condom 04-14-06, 05:54 PM	112 point buy. Or 4d6 drop, reroll 1s.
hangedman1984 04-14-06, 08:09 PM	but it's always better than having to confront your players with their rediculous "LUCKY" stats...18 18 18 16 16 8... why do they even bother to put the 8 in there I always wonder.. me and one other of our regular players always roll really high, the dm watches us and everthing. She even took to point-buy simply to end our lucky streak
Otto the Bugbear 04-14-06, 08:51 PM	This is a brilliant idea. If only there were some chance I could get my group to do this before I invent cold fusion, but it doesn't seem likely. Thanks! I'm actually rather proud to have come up with that one. Best of both worlds and all that jazz. The best you can do is fly it past them, explaining the benefits, and see how they react. Unless you're the DM, then just make it happen. It really turns out for the best. Unless you have a player or two that absolutely must lord over the other players how they have godly stats. As if that actually mattered one whit. Cheers Otto :)
AesirRaven 04-14-06, 10:59 PM	The current game I'm playing in uses the standard 4k3 (with one PC using Elite Array because I helped design her at home and the DM likes to watch rolls). When I run I do something different: 1-for-1 buy with a point pool of 75 (which averages out to three 12s and three 13s), or 84 if I'm feeling quite generous and want to run a higher-powered game (which averages out to all 14s). Still can't get all-18 ubercharacters with my chargen system, and I loathe the increasing cost values in the official standard/nonstandard point buy. Edit: My method begins Ability Scores at 0. You must put at least 3 points into each Ability Score.
Dragon Snack 04-14-06, 11:11 PM	My groups have come to like 32 point buy. No unlucky rolls to haunt your character (or lucky rolls to haunt the other characters), but enough power to give you some good stats. I've seen it used a ton of times (9 campaigns with 4 different groups) with a good mix of stats, even a good amount of odd numbered stats. I actually put "make up your own stats" on the table when I started my last campaign, with the stipulation that the wackier the stats the wackier the enemies. The players declined, believe it or not...
Ziggaraut 04-14-06, 11:26 PM	Once upon a time, I had a DM. His name was John, and he had maaaany books. We were playing a campaign that turned into Dragon Star after a while. I didn't mind. My characters were the only ones that ever died. I didn't mind. The sorcerer was turned into one of those construct thingies that you can jam your soul into when you die. STILL didn't mind. The monk, played by my brother, had spellware implants that put him several levels in exp debt. Still didn't mind, I didn't get any cause I wanted more levels. Next session the debt was wiped clean for no easily explained reason. I quit the campaign about then, but this is just a rant. What I REALLY didn't like was the stat rolls. 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll ones and twos, unlimited rerolls. My brother, the monk, had 18, 18, 18, 16, 16, 14. He never died. He always kicked butt in combat. He always lauded his supieriority over the party. Just cause he got some lucky rolls. Incidentally, I am a devout follower of 32-point buy now.
Max Octavious Xavier 04-15-06, 12:01 AM	Point buy or Otto the Bugbear methods (nice job). I have been wanting to do something along those lines. Hmm, let's call it the random array method.
Max Octavious Xavier 04-15-06, 12:08 AM	x2 post
CipherTheory 04-15-06, 02:01 AM	The origional group that I played with had the following: Roll 5d6 and drop the bottom two. Repeat five times. If your highest score isn't 18, change it to an 18 (everyone deserves one 18) If your lowest is above 10, change it to a 10 (because everyone's average at something) No re-rolls. Honestly, you should be in the positives all around anyway. Now that I've moved half-way across the country and am the DM, I use this method with my players as well. Generally speaking, it means that my player's get a +1 in most of their scores, and get the +4 they want for their core stat. It also prevents anyone from whining that they got jipped on a stat they find themselves using regularly. ...But that's me and mine. Edit: Question for Otto the Bugbear: How many times do you allow a re-roll? If there's a limit, what happens if they end their quota on bad luck? If not, what prevents them from continuing to try until everything's 16+? (Well, other than the desire for the group to get moving that is.) I really like your idea, but I'd like this cleared up before I try it with a future group I might have.
Dragonsblood 04-15-06, 02:13 AM	My newest game that I'm a player in, the DM wanted 4D6 drop the lowest and 7 stats drop the lowest, then asign where you want them. If your stats are about as good as a commoner or worse, confirm with the DM to reroll until you get more heroic stats. It's lead to a higher power game, but it balances out because he throws higher CR monsters at us. I ended up with 17,11,14,10,14,17, which was perfect for my paladin :) Personally, I prefer 32 PB, but I don't complain about most stat rolling methods. I also agree that Otto the Bugbear's idea is brilliant - I might try that the next time I DM, but I'd give myself veto power ;)
mearrin69 04-15-06, 02:37 AM	I met a DM, whom I didn't end up playing with, that had D6s marked from 13-18. His method was roll 8 of those and drop the lowest two scores. Gonzo scores. I like the 'random array' method. Good way to make sure everyone is on par. In my current game I was very honest with rolls and ended up with a 15 int on the high end and an 8 str on the low end (wizard). My co-players, after various adjustments all have some scores in the 19-21 range (along with some low ones as well). Ask me how... I'll see a to-hit roll of like 4 and they'll say, "ah...let's see...that's a 27". The DM's got the sheets though so I imagine everything's mostly on the up and up. I'm a pretty lucky roller though so I don't really care anyway ;) M
dreamsofblue 04-15-06, 03:37 AM	The most common method my group uses is roll 4d6, keep the two highest reroll the two lowest take the highest of those two. Roll seven times, drop the lowest. You can choose to reroll the whole string of stats but if you do you have to scrap the first set. You only get the one total reroll. Somehow it averages stats in the 14-16 range with one or two stats being higher or lower. Granted we are more powerful than most of the enemies but that just means that the DM gets to use enemies that we haven't seen before (he has more books than we do). The other method we have used is roll 4d6 reroll double ones and double twos, roll seven times drop the lowest. Rerolling the stat string is entirely up to the DM and how generous he is feeling at the time (but he is consistant with all players per game). This method seems to produce stats that are a little above average but rarely do we have total crack for stats. ~blue
Otto the Bugbear 04-15-06, 08:09 AM	Hey guys, thanks for all the props! Question answered: I allow them to reroll unlimited times. However, my group tended to get good yet not amazing stats and be happy with it. I think after voting 'no' about a dozen times -- taking only a few minutes really -- they settled on 17, 15, 14, 12, 12, 10 (37 points equiv.) Very reasonable in my view. Then again, when I played the stats came it at 29 points. Not exactly overwhelming, but playable. If you do have a group that's willing to spend an hour and roll 150 sets of stats, make sure you, the DM, always have at least one of the rolls. Roll last and adjust it depending on what's come up already. I know, this is basically DM fiat. The other thing is to just keep veto power as Dragonsblood mentions. As I mention in my initial post, it can happen so be ready with the veto button. Also, tell the players that you'll be using those super rolls for the NPCs and BBEGs. Good for the goose, good for the gander. Another thing I thought of, if the group rerolls over and over and over, etc. Tell them that you don't want to DM such an over the top game. Tell them to take those abilities and make up some 10th level villians for you to use in the game. Then have them reroll some more. All in all, it's boiled down to "let's get the game started" every time I've used it. While rolling, the players are forming their characters more and more in their heads. They get impatient to get started, and settle on a roll that's 28+ points. Hey, any more questions and concerns, please bring them up. This is some great positive feedback I'm getting here. Cheers Otto :D
Sunrider 04-15-06, 10:12 AM	3 or more players - 32-36 point buy 1 or 2 players - 42-45 point buy (solo characters, particularly those operating in disguise, with limited magic item support (a mummified elf-hand around your neck is a big no-no in disguise), really need higher stats to make up for it) Mind you, this is FR, which tends to be high-powered.
Finlos 04-15-06, 10:49 AM	My party used to roll stats several years ago. With the DM watching, our party ended up with a 57 pt 1/2 orc barbarian, a 45 pt Arcane archer, my 40 pt cleric, and a 30 pt human paladin. We've used point-buy ever since. Finlos
Crimson_Concerto 04-15-06, 11:01 AM	I honestly don't see everybody's obsession with using really high point buys or NEEDING an 18 somewhere. A 25 PB can get you perfectly acceptable scores. But I have been experimenting with a way to to point buy but a bit more randomly, so it's still dependant on rolling dice. You see, you roll the usual 4D6, dropping the lowest, but then instead of taking those scores, you convert them into the amount of points they're worth according to the DMG point buy and then use those points to build your character as usual for the point buy. I like this because it allows for both a factor of luck and control. (Note that scores below 8 are still treated as an 8, and the minimum point buy is at 25) For example, just now, I rolled the following numbers: 5, 6, 1, 3 = 14 = 6 points 1, 4, 5, 5 = 14 = 6 points 2, 4, 4, 5 = 13 = 5 points 4, 1, 5, 1 = 10 = 2 points 3, 1, 1, 3 = 7 = 0 points 6, 1, 5, 5 = 16 = 10 points TOTAL: 29 Thus, I would now build my character with a 29 PB, probably something like 16, 16, 12, 11, 10, 8 or 16, 16, 14, 11, 8, 8 or 18, 14, 12, 11, 8, 8 depending on the character in question... I'm probably not the first to think of this, but oh well...
PhantomTrain 04-15-06, 12:12 PM	Both as a player and as a GM, I vastly prefer high stats to low ones. A lot of my characters virtually all of the characters for campaigns I run are build on the 'Odysseus' model and should at least be average at everything. That in mind, I have my players roll 1d8+9. And yes, I allow characters with all 17's. No good for realistic or low power campaigns to be sure, but that's ok. I like telling stories about 'heroes' in the classical definition.
Sunrider 04-15-06, 12:35 PM	There's no real reason to call a high-stat game 'unrealistic' - after all, straight 10s and 11s are merely the average human (of which there are probably very few representatives). Actual stats run the gamut - there are people with all low stats, people with all high stats and people with some of each. Adventurers, due to their demanding lifestyle, tend to come from the higher echelons of humanity (statwise anyway) - this is reflected in the above-average stats generated using standard point buy or 4d6 drop lowest. There is, however, also a spread of abilities among adventurers - you have those who barely make the cut, as well as those of a higher calibre. What the 'cut' is depends greatly on the campaign setting - a tougher campaign will require tougher adventurers, translating to higher stats. Similarly, lower-end adventurers will be less suited to working solo or in pairs - they will tend to group together in larger parties. In other words, higher stats aren't 'unrealistic'. They merely represent a more elite group of adventurers - less statistically common, but still well within the gamut of human abilities. Depending on the campaign, this may or may not be what you need but, in the end, it is the setting and the DM, not the player stats, which determine the 'realism' of a campaign.
Pandaemoni 04-15-06, 01:26 PM	Both as a player and as a GM, I vastly prefer high stats to low ones. A lot of my characters virtually all of the characters for campaigns I run are build on the 'Odysseus' model and should at least be average at everything. I rather like having a below average score or two. We all have flaws, even heroes. In any event, you can ave all exceptional scores, but shouldn't your ECL just be adjusted up relative to a more "average" character's? If it's not it's just playing the game in "easy" mode.
ToxicWiz 04-15-06, 02:08 PM	our method in my group is abit... high powered, but we enjoy it. roll up 4d6... remove lowest. reroll any stat under 10. we rarely die it is true, but once we do it's pretty much over. We don't force permanent death, but we rarely pick up a character after death. The character just doesn't feel the same afterwards. not saying we have it easy though, we all walk away with alot of pain. any mission with more than 10 health at the end (at level 5) is a huge success. That, and we run a low treasure set, so it dents our funds significantly. just how we do it. :)
Neuneck 04-15-06, 03:12 PM	I'm happy this thread found so much participants... I like most of the ideas although i'm not really a fan of point-buying, nor of inequal scores... i think i'll stick to the "random array" method in future and also propose it to my DMs in one of the campains i participate in it's really sic... our priest is like 18,15,13,12,12,11 (good stats, still) but our fighter knocked the ass off (just inveted this one, i like it (the expression^^)): 18,18,17,16,14,13, it's so crazy when you, as a rogue have the same int as the fighter, who put str, dex, and con as most important stats... (for info: i've got: 20,16,15,13,12,12 (as halfling...)) we're all 4th lvl stats made with 4d6 drop lowest, rerolls as much as DM allows
wonlee76 04-15-06, 03:48 PM	Point Buy (of some sorts) or now Otto's method. I really like Otto's method for some reason. I've veered away from dice rolling stats only because you are bound to have 1 PC with better stats then another PC and that just seems unfair to me and may cause one player to have less fun then another just because of a random dice roll. Otto's method gives you dice rolling and the ability to have everyone start off on the same foot and point buy does the same with the advantage of customization of course to tailor to your PC's needs.
Otto the Bugbear 04-15-06, 06:25 PM	I guess this means it now has an official name. "Random Array" has been used by 3 people to describe my method. So, Otto's Random Array it is. Now, where is that Trollbill to cement my name in history? Cheers Otto :bounce:
Neuneck 04-15-06, 07:08 PM	I just added OTTO'S RANDOM ARRAY to my signature and I ask everyone else to join me...
Otto the Bugbear 04-15-06, 07:30 PM	Wow. I'm touched. :blush: And now, I've given this it's own thread on What's a DM to Do? board. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622415 And of course, I added it to my own sig. Cheers Otto :D