Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iuducium 04-17-04, 10:27 PM	So my character backstory says that my char. is the technical heir to the throne of a country, but absolutely refused to take it, and left. Years later, he's going to be forced to return (although in triumph, as his goal was accomplished). The DM, rather surprised at this turn of events, fervently believes that he is the only one who can dictate who is royalty/high nobility (from what I can see) and seems ready to try and make me change my backstory. The only problem is our unspoken rule that no "tweaking" of the characters starting out stuff, including backstory and such, can be changed once the first session is over. Well, that happened, and it seems like our campaign might fall apart before it even begins (again). Am I in the right, or is my brother (the DM)? Please answer!!! :(
Quenditar 04-17-04, 11:05 PM	I think you should have talked with the DM before making your character royalty. It's a great plot hook, but a lot of players would abuse that status (not that you are one of them) and the DM might have to rewrite a significant portion of the world to accomodate you. Also, neither DMs nor other players like attention-grabbing PCs - one of them in our game got herself turned into a rat and only avoided being killed when her brother bribed the party sorcerer into undoing the spell he cast on her (an NE type will do a lot of things for 80,000gp, especially at 12th level).
Duke Viper 04-17-04, 11:16 PM	I would smack your Dm if I were you. He shouldnt have allowed you to be roayalty in the first place if he does not like you becomeing an emporer. I have a similar story behind my character. My char pa is the empire of a feared, yet little known empire, that owns it own secluded island. Fathjer tried to kill me, I escaped. I plan on taking over the empire, but right now, I am a Vice-Roy in another empire, and im plotting to take it over, or gain enough power and influence to make an army big enough to capture my characters fathers empire. Only difference between you and me, is my DM likes the idea (I think, or at least he doesnt mind).
Thorak 04-18-04, 12:27 AM	If you made yourself royalty (or any kind of nobility for that matter) without checking with your DM first, you should be smacked. And there's no possible way you can determine that your character will return to your abandoned throne years later in triumph; that's a plot point and entirely up to the DM, not to mention they've likely declared your character abdicated his title in absentia and you have no valid claim any more. Sure, you could raise a rebellion against whoever they put in your place, but that's a whole series of adventures in and of itself, and if you're Good aligned there's a high chance you would have no reason to in the first place. Your DM IS the only person who can determine if someone is royalty, or even nobility of any kind, down to a simple knight. Nobility carries all kinds of assumptions and characteristics that PCs don't have; significantly, power and wealth. A PC declaring that he's really the heir to the throne has as much validity as the DM allows; if he disallows the backstory idea, your character was either lying or insane. I've got a noble character in my current campaign. But he's from a house that has lost all it's wealth, prestige, and power, in part due to his adolescent inattention. I get no advantages, and the only way to actually benefit from the title (the only actual thing left, even the house and land is gone to pay off the debts) is to restore the family's honour first; otherwise he'd be scoffed at and insulted, it would hurt more than help. And he's ashamed of himself, too ashamed to let anyone know his family name, even the party. And yet, even though I've deliberately set him up as from a minor house that has no way to have game effect besides DM meddling, I still ran this concept past my DM first, asking if it was OK. Because nobility is supposed to be a valuable thing, something for a PC to strive for. A fallen prince can be an absolutely wonderful plot hook, as mentioned, but just creating your backstory to be that without DM approval is just as ridiculous as creating a 1st level character who's really an Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon; he's just polymorphed until things tick him off.
Tenzhi 04-18-04, 01:40 AM	I agree with both Thorak and Duke Viper: both you and your DM need to be smacked for the previously listed reasons.
edgelett 04-18-04, 08:14 AM	Supreme executive power arrives from a mandate from the masses, not some farsical aquatic ceremony!!! What I mean by that is, while making yourself an heir to a throne might be a cool backstory you CAN'T do stuff like that without consulting your DM first!!!! IF your DM was told this at the start, and he allowed it, then he's in the wrong to. I agree with Thorak, Duke Viper and Tenzhi. You and your DM are BOTH to blame for this mess!!!
TheRedRobedWizard 04-18-04, 08:42 AM	See, I let any of my PCs be nobility... they just have to start off at first level as a Noble. If they want to multiclass beyond that, that's their perogative. Mind you, they won't be a very powerful noble in any sense. They're just of a noble house. THEN go about writing your backstory. Back to the topic at hand, IF you showed your backstory to the DM in the beginning and he wants to change it now, that's his fault. However, if you just wrote your backstory so you could be some kind of cheaply vieled Aragorn ripoff, how about you go and be creative. -TRRW
Roland the Crownbreaker 04-18-04, 01:06 PM	My group uses a modified OA samuria as a "noble warrior" class. This represents the broader education a noble would have had. (considerinng the warlike nature of dark age european nobility, I doubt a class that has less than full BAB can represent them properly) I played a prince once myself, but his backstory prevented him from ever ascending the throne. And I had my DM's permission to play this character first. (he liked the idea, as the dealings of royal family took center stage in our game) The eldest child had doubtful sanity. (according to the royal wizard she had no soul) My character was the eldest son (but 4th child) and was sent away in fear that as such, he might be a rallying point for a civil war, whether he coveted the throne or not. But, as a contingency plan, he was trained as a general in order that he might return in case his sister went nuts. The campaign started with that eventuality coming to pass. (the end result is that she was driven insane by sister number 2, and we had to remove her from the throne as well.) My character was in truth the illegitimate son of the queen and her champion, rather than of the King, so he could never claim the throne himself. Now we are starting a new campaign that has the goal of putting a decent soveriegn on the throne, after 100 years of anarchy. Again, though, I had the DM's permission to play such a character. (and this game I am playing a merlin type whose whiole job was getting the group together, and have turned over the decision-making to the other players. Such a character as I had the last campaign can really only be done once)
Remnant 04-18-04, 09:17 PM	Without a long drawn out post- Just as a DM does not have absolute control over the actions of the PCs and thereby the story that unfolds, neither can a PC pre-write history. While this issue should have been adressed at creation, its inclusion does not mean that the PC in question is pre-ordained to "return triumphant", what with free will and all.
Geethree 04-18-04, 10:43 PM	I agree completely with Thorak.
pjackson 04-19-04, 09:21 AM	Am I in the right, or is my brother (the DM)? Your brother, unless he agreed to the backstory. You control you PC - he controls the rest of the world. Your backstory requires certains things of the rest of the world, such as the existance of a country whose vacant throne has not been occupied, and thus needs his agreement.
Millennium 04-19-04, 09:58 AM	Trying to make your character royalty without DM permission is Just Not Cool. So is forcing you to change your backstory, but there are plenty of ways around that. A few examples: A pretender -perhaps a doppelganger impersonating you- takes the throne in your stead. Were you to try to take it back, you would be accused of being the doppelganger. An invading army conquers your country in your absence. Your family disowns you for having refused to take the throne. The King names another heir. They can do that, you know, being king and all. The fact is, trying to get the throne for your character won't work. If your DM is strong enough, he (she?) won't even need to retcon anything.
Kalrin 04-19-04, 10:30 AM	Twell.... A) Agreeing with the above: You should be smacked if you selected royalty without DM's consent and he should be smacked if he allowed it. B) My group rotates the DM seat every adventure, but keeps a consistent party. Unfortunately some of us use our characters as plot hooks, and entirely too many people in the party (for my taste at least) have "revealed" that they are royalty. So I have a bias against Royal (or Noble) PCs....
Elrana 04-21-04, 10:03 AM	A player wanted to be a noble in one of my games so the simple answer was to make him a younger son. No privelege of rank or inhereitance in real terms. I was intending to let his father die, his alcoholic older brother gamble away everything they owned and then have the nasty debt collectors come after him if he abused his minor title. He didn't, but he did play a stuck up, ignorant and bigoted spoiled brat entering the real world and having to change his attitudes well and it aded a lot of depth to what could otherwise have been another fairly standard fighter.
Sir Todd 04-21-04, 07:56 PM	All backgrounds should be approved by the GM not just Noble ones. In Fact the GM has the right to deny ANY aspect of a character not just background. There are benefits and penalties to playing a noble (at least if your doing it right). And as a GM I probably would veto anyone who painted themselves as heir to a throne. On the other hand I encourage Noble PCs and FULLY use that as a plot hook... not many people played Nobles in my game after they realized it wasn't all fun and power. Even minor nobles are expected to attend balls and parties on a regular basis. You could end up dropping several hundred gold per event just for clothing you will never wear again. And if you refuse to attend parties that Noble title soon becomes an anchor dragging you down in social situations.
Loftower 04-21-04, 08:07 PM	Your DM should have read the story before you played the first session. If it were me, I might have the country wiped out by a natural disaster so I could avoid the revisionist history problem. Are all of the worlds that people play in so similar that you can write a character history just like that? Players in my world would never assume so much. Many characters don’t even know the names of two countries when they start. In my current campaign the players were third or fourth level before they met a gnome. If someone had chosen to play a gnome from the beginning (which I would have allowed), that character would have needed a very special background to get him or her anywhere near the rest of the adventurers. I don’t think any of them has ever seen an orc or half-orc. One player wanted to worship a god that is unknown in their starting area, so he needed a special history to get him to where he needed to be. If one of my players wrote that they came from royalty it could be a big problem, since the only king that the characters know of is an elf. How can a DM have creative control of the world and the PCs have carte-blanche with their character histories?
pres_man 04-21-04, 08:16 PM	First off if I was the DM, I would have made you take the NPC class aristocrat at first level (your nobility right?). Second, I would let you control your BACKGROUND information, saying that in the FUTURE you will be dragged back to become king is not what you have control over. Your character might be dead during the next gaming session, how then is he going to go back. Tell the DM that the kingdom is "far" away from where you are currently, because your PC travelled a long way to get free of it. When you left, they threatened to one day drag you back. Whether they will actually do it is totally up to your DM. By the way DM's have the right to set the mode of the campaign, I told my players that they all had to be Good, since I wanted them to be heroes. One player has slid into neutral as we went along, but he is being dealt with by the other players, so I'm not too concerned.
KismetRose 04-22-04, 03:46 AM	Originally posted by Iuducium So my character backstory says that my char. is the technical heir to the throne of a country, but absolutely refused to take it, and left. Years later, he's going to be forced to return (although in triumph, as his goal was accomplished). The DM, rather surprised at this turn of events, fervently believes that he is the only one who can dictate who is royalty/high nobility (from what I can see) and seems ready to try and make me change my backstory. The only problem is our unspoken rule that no "tweaking" of the characters starting out stuff, including backstory and such, can be changed once the first session is over. Well, that happened, and it seems like our campaign might fall apart before it even begins (again). Am I in the right, or is my brother (the DM)? Please answer!!! :( Let's take this in steps. Your character backstory, as it stands, is that your character is the "technical heir" to the throne. It appears that your character was born to the position but completely refused it. It also appears that you have held onto hopes that your character will go back to assume the throne. Now, things get a little muddled as you explain further - it sounds like the character went away to accomplish something and has succeeded in that task, and that the story has turned toward favoring your character's ascension. It also sounds like your DM did not count on your character being in that favored position - but the situation is not entirely clear and we are only getting one side of the story. The DM may be reluctant to let your character assume such an unplanned, privileged position, even if it was in your backstory, due to game balance issues. If you have held hopes all along of ascending, you may not feel particularly sympathetic to that. In any case, it does not seem fair for your DM to ask you to rewrite history - and fairness should be a major DM concern. Your DM should take some time, clear his mind, and find a way to deal with the cards as they have been played. I can see a whole crop of things he could do from here, and I don't even know the whole situation. The DM is the one who gets to decide whether or not anyone can be nobility, PC or NPC. It sounds like your DM subjected your backstory to his approval and even gave a time limit on how long it could be changed. It was not clear in your post, however, just how many sessions of this game have gone by - it seemed to be only one. If the DM made an error of judgment, it might not be too much to ask you to redo your character history this once, since it's only been one session. Sometimes DMs don't think everything through that they should. I could not help but note that you said previous games have fallen apart for your group. Did they fall apart due to things like this? If so, there may be some insidious out of character, gamer-to-gamer problems going on here that need to be solved or removed.
Conaill 04-22-04, 07:25 PM	If I were your DM, I'd probably let you get away with it. I think I would enjoy having such a delusional PC in my party. :devil: