Character based on one from Serenity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character based on one from Serenity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Archangel_Arcanis
04-10-07, 10:30 AM I'm looking to make a character based on the operative from the movie Serenity. I was originally thinking monk but now i'm thinking Sword Sage and would like your help in working out how a guy like this fits into a d&d world and what kind of common training they would all have. I'm not out to rip off the character, i just want to use him as a template for how to build others with the same role and job type.
starfire311
04-10-07, 10:50 AM Swordsage seems like a good fit for him, I would specialize in shadow hand/diamond mind and he seemed to be Lawful/neutral to the extreme. he may also have improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike
On_the_wings_of_TPK
04-10-07, 11:04 AM I recomend a ranger/monk funness. You could use a masterwork short sword to represent the sword the guy had. Bastard would work too, but it was a little large. I recomend max ranks in hide and move silently. Also survival for track. I would either max cross class ranks in gather info, or use the urban ranger variant in the unearthed arcana. Either way ignore the animal comapnion. For feats ascetic hunter would be a good bet. You may also want to look at the blood hound PrC from the complete adventurer. His nerve pinch could easily be flavoured as stunning fist as well.
Archangel_Arcanis
04-10-07, 11:05 AM that is along the lines of what i was currently thinking, except the lawful neutral thing. While the group of "operatives" would likely be LN he would be Lawful Evil since he admits to killing women and children when he has to.
starfire311
04-10-07, 11:19 AM that is along the lines of what i was currently thinking, except the lawful neutral thing. While the group of "operatives" would likely be LN he would be Lawful Evil since he admits to killing women and children when he has to.

you will not "when he has to" not when he wants to or when he feels like it, he puts his mission ahead of everything else, that is lawful. He is neutral because he doesn't care about how it gets done, as long as it got done, if given 2 options, one involves killing women and children and one involves not killing women and children he would choose not killing. He seemed liket eh type that if all thigns are equal he will choose the lesser of evils.
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-10-07, 11:54 AM I think the ranger/monk build idea seems solid. It seems to cover all the bases quite well.

you will not "when he has to" not when he wants to or when he feels like it, he puts his mission ahead of everything else, that is lawful. He is neutral because he doesn't care about how it gets done, as long as it got done, if given 2 options, one involves killing women and children and one involves not killing women and children he would choose not killing. He seemed liket eh type that if all thigns are equal he will choose the lesser of evils.

Agreed. He does evil deeds when required, not when desired. He admits, however, that he is an evil man. He knows he does evil, but he does it for a greater good. However, he also shows concern for the lives being lost in the battle against the Reavers. He does evil - much evil - but he cares nothing for personal gain or reward. He even admits that he will not live in the "perfect world" he is striving to create.

On the flipside, think of the part when he kills all of the people who have sheltered Mal and his crew. They could just as easily have taken those people prisoner to cut off those lines of support, mass murder was not necessary. That was an instance where he most certainly chose the path of greater evil simply cos it was more expedient.

At the risk of threadjacking, is anyone else of the opinion that Book was an Operative when he was younger? It fits all the evidence better than any other theory I've heard.
Kintara
04-10-07, 12:35 PM The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. He doesn't need to do it gleefully or for personal gain to be Evil. The Alignment section actually does a pretty good job of explaining how he's a perfect fit for LE.

And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :)

Anyway, considering the devotion to his cause, I'd say Crusader might also work pretty well.
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-10-07, 01:13 PM The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. He doesn't need to do it gleefully or for personal gain to be Evil. The Alignment section actually does a pretty good job of explaining how he's a perfect fit for LE.

QFT. He may be doing it for the greater good but he is evil.

And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :)

Glad to hear it. Everyone I've talked to seemed to think I was mad.
mcnoo
04-10-07, 01:36 PM You could always argue that his acceptance of the fact he is evil makes him much more neutral than a person who would do the same actions and believe he was blameless for them.

He has a conscience, but he is trained to ignore it.

It depends if you judge alignment by thought or by deed.

The operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, showing it is an abstract that extends well beyond the nine options available.

It also furthers my in DMing philosophy to pay little attention to a person's actual alignment, seeing it as a description of a character rather than a path for them to follow.
If it wouldn't cause so much unnecessary hassle, I'd gladly strip all mentions of alignment from the rules (and of course replace them with appropriate game balancing limitations or abilities).
Archangel_Arcanis
04-10-07, 02:09 PM i agree he does have qualities that make him fall under both LN and LE it all depends on how you look at it. If I were running a game with that character in it i would say LE but wouldn't chastise someone who played him LN and could back up their reasoning beyond " i don't want the paladin smiting me".

edit: yes i have actually had a player tell me this in a game before, when i asked why their obviously evil character had neutral on their sheet.

yes Crusader had also crossed my mind for him but the abilities didn't seem to fit while the mindset did. the ranger monk i think is very interesting and not an option i had thought about before.

and yes i also believe Book was an operative before he joined the crew, he just couldn't continue living that life and became a shepherd to repent, IMHO.
WhylniaPendragon
04-10-07, 02:21 PM I'm thinking maybe Ranger/Assassin. The Ranger would be good in that
it would help track down whom the character needed to kill.
While the Ranger could be switched out for any number of other classes
(Rogue, Ninja, Scout), I feel the Assassin is the perfect PrC
for The Operative.
I also agree that Book was probably an operative, or at the very least involved with the organization.
Gosh, I miss Firefly :(
Kintara
04-10-07, 02:22 PM The operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, showing it is an abstract that extends well beyond the nine options available.Actually, I disagree. If the Operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, then all characters are. I think the alignment system is pretty silly all in all, but the Operative is Evil. You can't slaughter innocents mercilessly just because it makes your job easier. That's evil (i.e. in the real world), and Evil (in the formal D&D sense). Don't over-think this. Don't confuse the fact that he's three-dimensional and an interesting, principled character with his obvious evilness. ;)

Besides, you don't need to be a sociopath to be Evil. In fact, I think it definitely makes it worse for you to have a conscience and do something anyway, then not have any real moral sense of what you're doing. In any case, neither situation makes you Neutral by any stretch.
starfire311
04-10-07, 03:39 PM The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. .

So do Maruts, and they are LN to the highest degree.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
04-10-07, 04:06 PM so what good acts does he do to balance out his evil ones?
starfire311
04-10-07, 04:13 PM so what good acts does he do to balance out his evil ones?

He has several "good" qualities... he is definatly a hard worker, unlike me:P

But he did sacrifice himself so that the "masses" could live a better life, he is very similar to the gray guard.
Mookie37
04-10-07, 04:35 PM SSage is a good idea for the Operative, and they have enough known maneuvers that I'd suggest throwing in some Setting Sun as well, his fight with Mal in Inarra's room gave me the feeling that he was using Mal's tendency to go for haymakers against him, which is very Setting Sun.

Also, yeah, Book was either an Operative of the Parliment or perhaps something higher ranking, though his combat proficiencies would lend themselves to being and Operative.
Dazzer
04-10-07, 04:47 PM He used a wakisashi perhaps?

1d6, crit 19-20/x2, slashing,

I think it's 400gp? It's in the DMG somewhere! It is essentially a slashing shortsword.

Additionally, he seemed LE at first, and is, but at the end, he turns LN imo, so you could say good wins that day since although good wasn't made, evil was destroyed. the end, happy.

Swordsage works very well. He could also be a crusader, or a monk, or a mix of any two or all three!. I say crusader because he is all out of the cause if you know what I mean, and that's what crusaders do!
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-10-07, 04:48 PM Also, yeah, Book was either an Operative of the Parliment or perhaps something higher ranking, though his combat proficiencies would lend themselves to being and Operative.

His little "outburst" when River is scanning the crew in Objects in Space suggests a first-hand experience with violence. I've always imagined, too, that his telling Mal he was "good with a hammer" was a sly hint of something much, much darker. :devil:

I actually have a fairly nifty story about Book's origin floating around in my head that I would love to write, but my beliefs prevent me from doing so (I am morally opposed to fan fic).
Manus
04-10-07, 05:04 PM And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :)

Pick up the novelization of the movie. Because novelizations are based on original screenplays, they often include small scenes that are either clipped from the movie during editting (to be restored on the dvd release), or sometimes never even filmed. The novelization includes not only the operative's interrogation of Fanty and Mingo, but also the operative's attack on Shepherd Book's outpost. To make a medium-sized story short, the operative and Book recognized each other.
Archangel_Arcanis
04-10-07, 05:47 PM sorry not in the dvd i just watched all the deleted scenes and they made no mention of it in any of the comentary other than Joss saying he intentionally left it out to make people wonder.
starfire311
04-10-07, 06:56 PM He has several "good" qualities... he is definatly a hard worker, unlike me:P

But he did sacrifice himself so that the "masses" could live a better life, he is very similar to the gray guard.

was thinking about this, he aint quite as good as a gray gaurd, he is much less good than a gray gaurd, maybe more like an inquisiter.
PhaedrusXY
04-10-07, 07:01 PM Check the Iaijutsu Shou Swashbuckler link in my sig. Several people commented that it reminded them of that guy.
DyloniusFunk
04-10-07, 11:53 PM sorry not in the dvd i just watched all the deleted scenes and they made no mention of it in any of the comentary other than Joss saying he intentionally left it out to make people wonder.

Whedon is mean like that. I remember he said on the commentary that When Book was telling Mal he didn't have to tell him his secrets that was Josh telling the audience he didn't have to tell us the truth about Book.
Kintara
04-11-07, 01:57 AM So do Maruts, and they are LN to the highest degree.Do they? My understanding would be that they might kill people who directly got in the way of doing their mission (i.e., literally protecting a lich or some other creature cheating death). But that's far and away a different thing from killing all of an enemy's friends and acquaintances that may have even thought about protecting him. Now THAT is a whole other level of slaughter. (Also, I would say that humanity and outsiders/constructs/etc. perceive the world differently from each other, and may not even have the same sense of self as us, which means that it's hard to judge them in the same context. This especially goes for creatures like Inevitables, which are practically laws of the Universe given form. People, on the other hand, I have a firmer grasp on.)

Anyway, whatever he is, Hand of Death (I think that's the name, a 4th level Shadow Hand maneuver) looks like a pretty good match for his nerve strike attack.

Anyway, what class he is really depends on how closely you want to simulate the character, as opposed to simply adapting him. I could easily see him as a Crusader with a minor change or two to his tactics.

Edit: Hey, I thought I read something like that...the flavor text for Inevitables specifically says that they "leave innocents alone."
ravenshrike
04-11-07, 02:09 AM And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :)

If you read the novelization, which was based off of a much less edited script, it's basically confirmed. SPOILER

He was an operative who essentially fell from grace somehow, and in the book is personally killed by the operative.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel_Arcanis 04-10-07, 10:30 AM	I'm looking to make a character based on the operative from the movie Serenity. I was originally thinking monk but now i'm thinking Sword Sage and would like your help in working out how a guy like this fits into a d&d world and what kind of common training they would all have. I'm not out to rip off the character, i just want to use him as a template for how to build others with the same role and job type.
starfire311 04-10-07, 10:50 AM	Swordsage seems like a good fit for him, I would specialize in shadow hand/diamond mind and he seemed to be Lawful/neutral to the extreme. he may also have improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-10-07, 11:04 AM	I recomend a ranger/monk funness. You could use a masterwork short sword to represent the sword the guy had. Bastard would work too, but it was a little large. I recomend max ranks in hide and move silently. Also survival for track. I would either max cross class ranks in gather info, or use the urban ranger variant in the unearthed arcana. Either way ignore the animal comapnion. For feats ascetic hunter would be a good bet. You may also want to look at the blood hound PrC from the complete adventurer. His nerve pinch could easily be flavoured as stunning fist as well.
Archangel_Arcanis 04-10-07, 11:05 AM	that is along the lines of what i was currently thinking, except the lawful neutral thing. While the group of "operatives" would likely be LN he would be Lawful Evil since he admits to killing women and children when he has to.
starfire311 04-10-07, 11:19 AM	that is along the lines of what i was currently thinking, except the lawful neutral thing. While the group of "operatives" would likely be LN he would be Lawful Evil since he admits to killing women and children when he has to. you will not "when he has to" not when he wants to or when he feels like it, he puts his mission ahead of everything else, that is lawful. He is neutral because he doesn't care about how it gets done, as long as it got done, if given 2 options, one involves killing women and children and one involves not killing women and children he would choose not killing. He seemed liket eh type that if all thigns are equal he will choose the lesser of evils.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-10-07, 11:54 AM	I think the ranger/monk build idea seems solid. It seems to cover all the bases quite well. you will not "when he has to" not when he wants to or when he feels like it, he puts his mission ahead of everything else, that is lawful. He is neutral because he doesn't care about how it gets done, as long as it got done, if given 2 options, one involves killing women and children and one involves not killing women and children he would choose not killing. He seemed liket eh type that if all thigns are equal he will choose the lesser of evils. Agreed. He does evil deeds when required, not when desired. He admits, however, that he is an evil man. He knows he does evil, but he does it for a greater good. However, he also shows concern for the lives being lost in the battle against the Reavers. He does evil - much evil - but he cares nothing for personal gain or reward. He even admits that he will not live in the "perfect world" he is striving to create. On the flipside, think of the part when he kills all of the people who have sheltered Mal and his crew. They could just as easily have taken those people prisoner to cut off those lines of support, mass murder was not necessary. That was an instance where he most certainly chose the path of greater evil simply cos it was more expedient. At the risk of threadjacking, is anyone else of the opinion that Book was an Operative when he was younger? It fits all the evidence better than any other theory I've heard.
Kintara 04-10-07, 12:35 PM	The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. He doesn't need to do it gleefully or for personal gain to be Evil. The Alignment section actually does a pretty good job of explaining how he's a perfect fit for LE. And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :) Anyway, considering the devotion to his cause, I'd say Crusader might also work pretty well.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-10-07, 01:13 PM	The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. He doesn't need to do it gleefully or for personal gain to be Evil. The Alignment section actually does a pretty good job of explaining how he's a perfect fit for LE. QFT. He may be doing it for the greater good but he is evil. And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :) Glad to hear it. Everyone I've talked to seemed to think I was mad.
mcnoo 04-10-07, 01:36 PM	You could always argue that his acceptance of the fact he is evil makes him much more neutral than a person who would do the same actions and believe he was blameless for them. He has a conscience, but he is trained to ignore it. It depends if you judge alignment by thought or by deed. The operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, showing it is an abstract that extends well beyond the nine options available. It also furthers my in DMing philosophy to pay little attention to a person's actual alignment, seeing it as a description of a character rather than a path for them to follow. If it wouldn't cause so much unnecessary hassle, I'd gladly strip all mentions of alignment from the rules (and of course replace them with appropriate game balancing limitations or abilities).
Archangel_Arcanis 04-10-07, 02:09 PM	i agree he does have qualities that make him fall under both LN and LE it all depends on how you look at it. If I were running a game with that character in it i would say LE but wouldn't chastise someone who played him LN and could back up their reasoning beyond " i don't want the paladin smiting me". edit: yes i have actually had a player tell me this in a game before, when i asked why their obviously evil character had neutral on their sheet. yes Crusader had also crossed my mind for him but the abilities didn't seem to fit while the mindset did. the ranger monk i think is very interesting and not an option i had thought about before. and yes i also believe Book was an operative before he joined the crew, he just couldn't continue living that life and became a shepherd to repent, IMHO.
WhylniaPendragon 04-10-07, 02:21 PM	I'm thinking maybe Ranger/Assassin. The Ranger would be good in that it would help track down whom the character needed to kill. While the Ranger could be switched out for any number of other classes (Rogue, Ninja, Scout), I feel the Assassin is the perfect PrC for The Operative. I also agree that Book was probably an operative, or at the very least involved with the organization. Gosh, I miss Firefly :(
Kintara 04-10-07, 02:22 PM	The operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, showing it is an abstract that extends well beyond the nine options available.Actually, I disagree. If the Operative is a fine example of the ambiguity of alignment, then all characters are. I think the alignment system is pretty silly all in all, but the Operative is Evil. You can't slaughter innocents mercilessly just because it makes your job easier. That's evil (i.e. in the real world), and Evil (in the formal D&D sense). Don't over-think this. Don't confuse the fact that he's three-dimensional and an interesting, principled character with his obvious evilness. ;) Besides, you don't need to be a sociopath to be Evil. In fact, I think it definitely makes it worse for you to have a conscience and do something anyway, then not have any real moral sense of what you're doing. In any case, neither situation makes you Neutral by any stretch.
starfire311 04-10-07, 03:39 PM	The Operative is Evil. He slaughters innocents without pause to get his job done. . So do Maruts, and they are LN to the highest degree.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-10-07, 04:06 PM	so what good acts does he do to balance out his evil ones?
starfire311 04-10-07, 04:13 PM	so what good acts does he do to balance out his evil ones? He has several "good" qualities... he is definatly a hard worker, unlike me:P But he did sacrifice himself so that the "masses" could live a better life, he is very similar to the gray guard.
Mookie37 04-10-07, 04:35 PM	SSage is a good idea for the Operative, and they have enough known maneuvers that I'd suggest throwing in some Setting Sun as well, his fight with Mal in Inarra's room gave me the feeling that he was using Mal's tendency to go for haymakers against him, which is very Setting Sun. Also, yeah, Book was either an Operative of the Parliment or perhaps something higher ranking, though his combat proficiencies would lend themselves to being and Operative.
Dazzer 04-10-07, 04:47 PM	He used a wakisashi perhaps? 1d6, crit 19-20/x2, slashing, I think it's 400gp? It's in the DMG somewhere! It is essentially a slashing shortsword. Additionally, he seemed LE at first, and is, but at the end, he turns LN imo, so you could say good wins that day since although good wasn't made, evil was destroyed. the end, happy. Swordsage works very well. He could also be a crusader, or a monk, or a mix of any two or all three!. I say crusader because he is all out of the cause if you know what I mean, and that's what crusaders do!
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-10-07, 04:48 PM	Also, yeah, Book was either an Operative of the Parliment or perhaps something higher ranking, though his combat proficiencies would lend themselves to being and Operative. His little "outburst" when River is scanning the crew in Objects in Space suggests a first-hand experience with violence. I've always imagined, too, that his telling Mal he was "good with a hammer" was a sly hint of something much, much darker. :devil: I actually have a fairly nifty story about Book's origin floating around in my head that I would love to write, but my beliefs prevent me from doing so (I am morally opposed to fan fic).
Manus 04-10-07, 05:04 PM	And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :) Pick up the novelization of the movie. Because novelizations are based on original screenplays, they often include small scenes that are either clipped from the movie during editting (to be restored on the dvd release), or sometimes never even filmed. The novelization includes not only the operative's interrogation of Fanty and Mingo, but also the operative's attack on Shepherd Book's outpost. To make a medium-sized story short, the operative and Book recognized each other.
Archangel_Arcanis 04-10-07, 05:47 PM	sorry not in the dvd i just watched all the deleted scenes and they made no mention of it in any of the comentary other than Joss saying he intentionally left it out to make people wonder.
starfire311 04-10-07, 06:56 PM	He has several "good" qualities... he is definatly a hard worker, unlike me:P But he did sacrifice himself so that the "masses" could live a better life, he is very similar to the gray guard. was thinking about this, he aint quite as good as a gray gaurd, he is much less good than a gray gaurd, maybe more like an inquisiter.
PhaedrusXY 04-10-07, 07:01 PM	Check the Iaijutsu Shou Swashbuckler link in my sig. Several people commented that it reminded them of that guy.
DyloniusFunk 04-10-07, 11:53 PM	sorry not in the dvd i just watched all the deleted scenes and they made no mention of it in any of the comentary other than Joss saying he intentionally left it out to make people wonder. Whedon is mean like that. I remember he said on the commentary that When Book was telling Mal he didn't have to tell him his secrets that was Josh telling the audience he didn't have to tell us the truth about Book.
Kintara 04-11-07, 01:57 AM	So do Maruts, and they are LN to the highest degree.Do they? My understanding would be that they might kill people who directly got in the way of doing their mission (i.e., literally protecting a lich or some other creature cheating death). But that's far and away a different thing from killing all of an enemy's friends and acquaintances that may have even thought about protecting him. Now THAT is a whole other level of slaughter. (Also, I would say that humanity and outsiders/constructs/etc. perceive the world differently from each other, and may not even have the same sense of self as us, which means that it's hard to judge them in the same context. This especially goes for creatures like Inevitables, which are practically laws of the Universe given form. People, on the other hand, I have a firmer grasp on.) Anyway, whatever he is, Hand of Death (I think that's the name, a 4th level Shadow Hand maneuver) looks like a pretty good match for his nerve strike attack. Anyway, what class he is really depends on how closely you want to simulate the character, as opposed to simply adapting him. I could easily see him as a Crusader with a minor change or two to his tactics. Edit: Hey, I thought I read something like that...the flavor text for Inevitables specifically says that they "leave innocents alone."
ravenshrike 04-11-07, 02:09 AM	And it's a common theory that Book used to be an Operative. :) If you read the novelization, which was based off of a much less edited script, it's basically confirmed. SPOILER He was an operative who essentially fell from grace somehow, and in the book is personally killed by the operative.