Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J.Augustus Rose II 09-21-04, 07:24 PM	So a few months ago my DM decided that it was time to switch to a point buy system. This was fine and good by me because I prefer to have more control over the creation of my character than dice rolling allows, but then came the problem. He decided that we would work with a 100 point buy (100 points spread amongst the attributes.) Okay, that was entertaining for a bit to play absurdly powerful characters but now it's just getting old. It's almost embarrasing having a 24 Strength or what not at 1st level. I'd much rather do a 25 point buy the way the DM book does it. I mean 100 points is just silly. Am I being unreasonable here? I know at least one other member of the group is bothered by this but I don't know about the rest. What I was thinking of doing was just not using all my points if he won't change the rule. It's not like I'm cheating and the only one I'm really hurting is myself, but I put a lot of thought into my characters and I hate for them to become cheese-fests right out of the gate. Can anyone give any thoughts or advice on this? Is it just me or is it really as silly as it seems? :confused:
FriendoftheDork 09-21-04, 07:39 PM	They're silly and you're right. 100 point buy is just stupid, and will either ruin world balance or force the dm to boost your opponents considerably. I recommend 36 point buy (as noted in the DMG) if you want a high powered campaign. 25 point buy is the norm, but I find it a tad weak as most elite NPCs have the same.
Saiph 09-21-04, 08:05 PM	I use, as do other GM's I know, 28 point buy. Enough to get some high powered characters...15,14,14,12,10,8 is the "standard" spread for comparison. You can get an 18, but it costs (dearly!) Enough that the highest you see in anything but a wizard (and rarely them) is a 16 (before race modifiers). Then 2 points put into it as you level up (so 18 at 8th level). It also seems pretty close to the average 4d6 drop the lowest results. I'd do something really high, just for kicks, for a really brief campaign (you know, an off center humor campaign). I also don't like rolling since I have personally and legitimately rolled 58+ point buy characters (~2 IIRC). Thats 3 18's +other decent stats. That was one buff bard.
porygandrew 09-21-04, 09:01 PM	Hrm.... ya know, the standard rule for character creation with my DM was to reroll 1s and 2s. Thus giving us at least a score of 9. Not too horrible, but I am terrified, now, of playing a character with negative modifiers :eek:
monkeywrench 09-21-04, 11:34 PM	For our powergame, with 15th level characters, we did a 35 point buy. Thems were some powerful characters. My personal preferred method is Roll 5, drop lowest 2. Still random, but you have better chances of getting a good set of stats. One of the campaigns I'm in now uses the so called "Elite Array". I hate that. I feel so restricted.
MonkeyKing 09-22-04, 01:33 AM	Our group uses 4d6 drop the lowest die, roll 2 sets of stats and take your favourite. (very occaisionally our DM will step in if both sets are just terrible!) We've never felt the need to use a point buy system (100 points!! Hello powergamer paradise...) and personally I like the randomness of rolling stats. Generally you'll always get at least one weaker attribute but IMHO this makes for a more interesting game. Whether your characters dim, weak, got a slight limp, a stutter, or is just plain butt ugly, there's always another aspect to be added to your roleplaying. Things would be pretty dull if you could walk through every situation without even thinking about it because of your characters uber stats. I find dnd to be far more enjoyable when it's challenging as well as fun, but horses for courses and all that business! In response to the original post, I would say just take the standard 25 or 28 points and build your character from those if you'd enjoy playing the character more. Be prepared for the fact though that your character will be by far the weakest of the group and if the other players are most interested in 'powergaming' then you might not get the opportunity to roleplay certain aspects of your character as much as you might like. Hope it works out. :)
Lanoitakude 09-22-04, 01:52 AM	100 Point Buy?! I laughed when I saw that. That is some funny stuff. Playing a character with MAD would be crazy. A monk comes to mind. Tell your DM "Okay, it was fun to play as gods for a while, but I'd like to get back to a more realistic campaign." The DM is making things more difficult for himself, because the CRs aren't structured for PCs with stats like that, he'd have to rework everything. As a level 1 character, you could probably take CR 3-5 stuff easily. I mean, you could get a caster with a rediculous primary attribute, boosting DCs to an impossible level! I find it all very humorous. Oh yeah, when I DM, I do 32 point buy. You can get some good numbers like that, but nothing crazy.
Master Agnald 09-22-04, 02:05 AM	The way we play it, we roll 3d6, than reroll the lowest. Repeat 5 more times. Then do it again, chose the best set. I like it this way, it keeps the ramdomness and leaves less for me to decide... I absolutely hate deciding point distrubition (which is a reason why my Diablo II characters usually suck). Sometimes we get lucky with an 18 and a 17, and a ****load of 15s (I always roll lots of 15s)... but sometimes we get a bunch of 10s, 11s, 12s and only one good stat. Once we had a guy playing a paladin... he had some pretty bad statuses, except for a 18, which he put in CHA... I see, so he could heal 4 HP at lvl 1, 8 at lvl 2 and 12 at lvl 3... but he had a STR of 8... that was the first crossbow oriented paladin I'd ever seen... not that I can blame him... all his other stats pretty much sucked as well...
allenchan 09-22-04, 03:32 AM	My group uses high powered but constant stats of: 18, 16, 15, 12, 10, 8 of course, all the npc's use these too. :schemes:
fatal error 09-22-04, 04:22 AM	100 point buy is dumb, to break what seems to be the traditional response (shoot him with a hammer) I will instead use a slightly altered version; hit your DM with a bullet. :) Seriously, 100 point buy is just dumb, tell your DM to go play something like toon to get him and his players off of the powergaming addiction.
FriendoftheDork 09-22-04, 06:54 AM	My group uses high powered but constant stats of: 18, 16, 15, 12, 10, 8 of course, all the npc's use these too. :schemes: so everyone in the world are supermen? Ok, I know you mean elite NPCs only, but that is still ridiculous. Ok, PCs should be exceptional, but if everyone has an 18 it's nothing special. Now, if some crazy wizard cloned you all, that would be different... hmmm, campaign plot brewing :schemes:
Henchcritter 09-22-04, 09:46 AM	I agree with the majority here 100 point buy is over the top, passing the underside of the bowl, coming back over the top from the other side, complete filling the bowl for the second time and going over the top again. However, he is the GM. If he wants to run a campaign like that so be it. You have the right to plead your case but in the end it is take it or leave it. Henchhttp://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif
Aerunation 09-22-04, 10:34 AM	Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 18 Cha 16 equalls 100 points if I understood his method correctly. He is not using the point buy system from the DMG, right? One for one with all stats starting at 0? It's not too bad if he's running a planar or Dark Sun campaign.
eudas 09-22-04, 04:00 PM	Just wanted to chime in that most character builds you see on the Char Opt board use 30 pt buy; that is also what I tend to use; that is also what NWN uses. eudas
Edymnion 09-22-04, 05:55 PM	The point buy equivolent for 4d6 drop lowest is actually a 30 point buy. (The outcome of 4d6 drop lowest you are most likely to get is a 13. 13 = 5 points. 5 points times 5 stats = 30 points) 28 point buy is putting the characters at a slight dissadvantage. 30 point buy is normal. 32 point buy is giving the characters a slight advantage. Aka, the "standard", "elite", etc point buys in the DMG are all pretty much wrong. But yeah, if the DM said we were using a 100 point straight buy, I would have simply told him to give me a call when he planned on DM'ing a serious game. I wouldn't even play in that game in the first place, its just too stupid, imo.
Twisted Puppy 09-22-04, 06:17 PM	IMC, I use a 36 point buy. A bit high powered, I know, but when we started some of the players I had enjoyed higher powered characters - and I got to make the bad guys just as tough :D
Kiirnodel 09-22-04, 06:39 PM	I really like the 32 point buy, I am a DM, so I can't say my characters like it. Enemies usually use the 28 (elite ones) and sometimes I use elite dragons at 25 (That still is overpowered :devil:) So...definitely hammer to your dm's head, I want to be a PC is his campaign!
J.Augustus Rose II 09-23-04, 12:51 AM	Don't get me wrong, the guy is a good DM. We aren't a group of hack & slashers, and we aren't a group of powergamers (well. one of us is, but that's another story.) For every week of straight fighting we have two or three weeks of straight role-playing. I like that so he's not really shot-with-a-hammer material. But this 100-point thing is really starting to get lame. I've heard a few good suggestions here so I'm going to talk to him about it. If he doesn't want to change it, I'll either live with it or just not use of my 100 points. Like I said, the games are too good to quit over something like this so I'll just have to see what I can do. Oh, and Aerunation has it right. I do like the idea of point-buy (because the dice are notorious for screwing me in character creation) but this really is just silly.
Sucineri 09-23-04, 07:17 AM	What would 6 18's equal in point buy? I ask because I have had that a couple times through the 4d6 drop 1 method..although I tend to roll 6 times and record all 6 numbers on a piece of paper then repeat the process over and over and over and over and over and etc until I get some uberstats. Even though I have played characters with 18's in all their stats (20/16 based on some classes) I tended to get killed a lot faster through horrible rolls. Whereas the ones that tend to get something like 18/18/16/14/10/8 (which is more normal to me) seems to be funner and last longer. I don't have a good time at all when my character doesn't even have atleast 1 18, because everyone I play with likes 18's as well and I feel left out/underpowered. :(
garlak 09-23-04, 08:45 AM	What would 6 18's equal in point buy? 16 * 6 is 96 I believe. 100 point buy is pure sillyness. Your DM sounds about ready for a trip to the asylum. :D
oldmandm 09-23-04, 09:36 AM	:mymy: 100... To me it would be much trickier to plan sessions with that sort of power as a group. I run with our group at 28 point buy. At first level. This also means the bad guy NPc's are about the same. With those kind of numbers (100 pts) you really stick out. I have no doubt that you can have a good game or even a short campaign with such numbers. But with a low/mid level campaign with aproximatly 28-30 point buy gives you alot of breathing room for improvement and advancement. As well you get to actually be challanged by such things as Hobgoblins at first level. In my mind a 100 point setup is a big challange for a DM to come up with effective, creative and challanging scenarios for the PC's. If he can do it (DM) and the group enjoys it. More power to em. It's just not my particular style.
rusdrake77 09-23-04, 09:53 AM	I use 17.17.15.14.11.10 array simply because I like it. It's an equivalent of 45 p.buy, but is not optimized to round 18's and 16's. I hate this rounding habbit.
Pliny 09-23-04, 10:04 AM	Nice to see all they answers making sure the group doesn't have the wrong kind of fun.
Atarmalake Stormspire 09-23-04, 10:30 AM	While you may not want to use all your points and have uber stats... what about purchasing class abilities or elfsight or drow spell like abilities like they did back in second edition. You might find that you come up with a workable and enjoyable player character. Its been a long time since I looked through my 2ed books so I dont remember which book all of that was in. Mayhap someone else here would recall or have them on hand to take a peek. Lake :mage: :mage: :mage:
SoulLord 09-23-04, 12:26 PM	even tough ill admit that 100 points seem very high if everyone else is having fun perhaps you could trade some of those points for something else as someone suggested. some suggestions Followers. lands. noble titles. education. army background. Feats?? etc. if your dm allows it im sure some of your fellow players will want to trade some points as well. SoulLord
eRaz0r 09-23-04, 01:05 PM	Ha! We're using 25 point buy, and WE LIKE IT ! the highest score was a 16 @ 1st level, and that was with my Wizard (S8, D14, C14, I16, W10, Ch9) It's a challenge, but our party hangs together because of it. None of us can do much without the rest of us. It also means buffs are definitely a necessity. We regularly buff our Paladin and Barbarian with Bulls Strengths and so on. And Enlarge is also a useful trade off at times, not just for Reach.
eudas 09-23-04, 03:17 PM	Ha! We're using 25 point buy, and WE LIKE IT ! (snip) Do you walk uphill to the dungeon, both ways, in the snow, barefoot, too? ;) eudas
eRaz0r 09-23-04, 03:42 PM	And we get up at two in the morning, three hours before we went to bed and lick the flagstones clean. But you tell youngsters these days that... and they don't believe you!
JackSpades 09-23-04, 07:05 PM	100 point buy? The very idea makes my head hurt. Although different strokes... I'm going to start using 28 point buy in my campaigns. I'm tired of my players rolling entire sheets worth of stats at home and then picking the ones they like best. The worst part is I'm accused of being an unfair DM when I try to put a stop to this practice. :( You player types and your strange ways...
NinjaHedge 09-24-04, 12:37 AM	The point buy equivolent for 4d6 drop lowest is actually a 30 point buy. (The outcome of 4d6 drop lowest you are most likely to get is a 13. 13 = 5 points. 5 points times 5 stats = 30 points) 28 point buy is putting the characters at a slight dissadvantage. 30 point buy is normal. 32 point buy is giving the characters a slight advantage. Aka, the "standard", "elite", etc point buys in the DMG are all pretty much wrong. But yeah, if the DM said we were using a 100 point straight buy, I would have simply told him to give me a call when he planned on DM'ing a serious game. I wouldn't even play in that game in the first place, its just too stupid, imo. your math is off. How did you come to the conclusion that 13 is average for 4d6 drop the lowest? 13 is average for 4d6, so obviously that can't be right. Besides, with the way rolling is spread, and the way the point buy system works, simply taking an average like that would not work. 25 is average for rolling. All CRs are built around a 25 point buy. Deal with it. Oh for shame that your players might actually have to make tough choices, instead of just jacking their important stats as high as they can go. It never ceases to amaze me that people can complain that it's too easy to get things like tumble and concentration really high, and then on the same hand argue that 25 point is too low. What do you think balances out stuff like that? Yeah, if you assume players can get three stats at 18 and infinate feats, then concentration checks are a cake walk. My group has been playing 25 point buy gastault characters and it's been a hoot. Oh, I remember the good ol' days, wizards with DCs of 21 on their first level spells by 3rd level. *grumble grumble* stupid 3.0 polymorph *grumble* edit: oops, speaking of math being off, 14 is the average for 4d6, but that still guarentees that the average of 4d6 drop the lowest is not going to be 13. Maybe 12, but that would make all the difference, as that would put the average for rolling at....24 point buy
ronyon 09-24-04, 09:08 AM	If you must play with this guy, Dont hadicap yourself. Instead make a character of legend. Make the worlds smartest, worlds strongest or words toughest______ there ever was! Maxing Con would make for a great balance, cause a lot could impair him but little could kill him. Seriosly, though, who wants to play Superman,born great at every thing, When Batman, who made himself great thru force of will, is so much more interesting?Maybe he should run an Epic rules game from first level.That way you could at least earn it.Or maybe your guy is nuts. Good luck....
Stuntman 09-24-04, 02:47 PM	The point buy equivolent for 4d6 drop lowest is actually a 30 point buy. (The outcome of 4d6 drop lowest you are most likely to get is a 13. 13 = 5 points. 5 points times 5 stats = 30 points) The average ability score for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.24. If you assume that abilities below 8 costs 0, then the average, equivalent point-buy of a set of stats generated by rolling 4d6 drop lowest is 29.13. If you assume that abilities below 8 costs -1 for 7, -2 for 6, down to -5 for 3, then the point-buy equivalent is 28.53. I did not count rerolling of the stats for hopeless characters. You have to keep in mind that point buy is deterministic. Your stats will never be really bad. With rolling you can get bad or really good stats. In general, if you have a party that rolls its stats using the standard 4d6 method and a party that uses the standard (25-pt.) point buy, both partys will be more or less equivalent. The reason is that even though 25 points is less than the equivanent average of 29 for rolling, the point buy guarantees that no stat is below 8 and no character has a set of stats that are far below average. In general, having low stats is more of a detrement to a PC or party than having high stats is a benefit. That is why the standard (25-pt.) point buy is on average, equivalent to rolling 4d6 drop lowest. Players should not underestimate how well the standard point buy method is. One other factor of the standard point buy is that it makes buff spells make a bigger difference. If you already had really high stats, you likely wouldn't need buffs as much. It is more insteresting when you have to decide whether or not to prepare buff spells as opposed to other spells. eRaz0r has had first hand experience with it and finds it a good method.
eRaz0r 09-24-04, 04:36 PM	Admittedly, I would like to find other ways to increase our stats as we become more "heroic" in stature. Having a max of +5 from inherent bonuses (Tomes etc) still means my character will only ever have STR 13, DEX 19, CON 19, INT 26, WIS 15, CHA 14, and that's with the unlikely event of finding/making all 6 Tomes. Oh no... what a shame ;)
J.Augustus Rose II 09-24-04, 07:13 PM	Wow. All that math is enough to give a guy a stroke. I'm an artist, my brain doesn't work that way. ;) Anyway. the idea of trading some ability points for feats or skill points or whatever is a good one. I don't really want to handicap the rest of the group, and I don't want to quit since the role-playing is actually good, but there doesn't seem to be much of a challenge when all the characters are more powerful at 1st level than some EPIC characters are at30th. I guess we'll have to see how it goes. Thanks guys!
darczero 09-28-04, 02:38 AM	As I've stated before, I don't like the point buy systems. And not that I have to point this out (I'm sure everyone else already has), but 96 points will get you straight 18's. Hopefully you're buying from 0 (that gives you only two at 18, the rest at 16). If your DM wants you to have really high-powered characters, then by all means, ride it out. Just be ready for those really high-powered monsters to go along with them.
RealMad 09-28-04, 02:54 AM	I go with whatever players want. In the end, all it means is adjusting encounters appropriately. If players feel better having high stat chars, then fine. If they get their kicks from what look like low stats, that's good too. After all, having an 18 STR when you're trying to hit AC 16 is the same as having 14 STR trying to hit AC 14. Give the high stat guys the AC 16 monsters and the 14 STR guys the AC 14 monsters. There's really nothing that you can't find a way to balance out.
Azigoth 09-28-04, 04:26 PM	So a fighter has an 18 strength, dex, and con, a 16 int and cha, and a 14 wisdom (that's the 100 point system he's talking about, I'm sure, not 100 points all added on top of a base of 7 per score). Oh dear! He (or she) would almost be as powerful as a fighter of one level higher - but not quite. So, a little better BAB, slightly better AC, a couple more HP, a better Swim modifier. So, let the DM throw six displacer beasts at the party instead of three. I don't see a problem there. It's not going to upset the "world balance," especially if the DM has something special in mind for the development of those characters. Maybe he or she wants the party to play the equivalent of Lancelots instead of some anonymous peasants. Great heroes in literature (like Beowulf, Achilles, Odysseus, Arthur, Cormac, Fingolfin, etc.) weren't slightly above average - they were outstanding paragons of prowess. In a fantasy roleplaying game, who wants to play the equivalence of the humdrum masses? Is it that big of a challenge to have fun with outstanding specimens for your player characters? And is it that hard for a DM to present a challenge for the extra Fortitude saving throw bonus that the higher Con brings? I've played all sorts of ranges of character ability scores. I prefer mine on the higher side. In one campaign, we split 90 points up between the 6 stats (sometimes with a single d4 to add where we wanted) - and that campaign was a wonderful blast that lasted over a decade and saw me advance two characters well into the 20th levels. Many, many times we barely - and I mean barely - got through situations alive and/or intact. Actually, sometimes we didn't even do that good. High ability scores are just dressing, with little real effect on gameply, if you ask me. There are plenty of avenues for DM and player creativity around them. Just my 2 cents.
Diamond Starfire 09-28-04, 05:47 PM	While I myself like higher than average point buys, such as 35 to 40, I do find 100pts ridiculous. However, one thing to keep in mind is that a smart DM would have theose super-buff characters go against equally super-buffed monsters and NPCs.