Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shar Baenre 02-08-04, 07:01 PM	Have any of you ever been in this boat? I literally feel like I should be ashamed of myself when I gain a level with my Red Wizard Necromancer. Its so bad that I use his Thayan knight bodyguard as my main character more these days than the wizard (who I absolutely love playing for personality purposes). But the real concern here is that without me, the party is kinda fodder, and I worry that in his attempts to challenge me, the others are gonna not stand a chance against the DM (its already been proven). But honestly, I'm not looking to "dumb-him-down", cuz I like the character's strengths for roleplaying reasons. He's an arrogant bastard on account of it and its fun to play that out. I'm just wondering if any of you have had characters that even you thought were too tough, and if you'd wanna share.
Toptomcat 02-08-04, 07:04 PM	A perfect, IC reason to lag slightly behind in levels would be to take up item crafting in earnest...or develop a sudden affinity for spells with XP costs.
Feral Lurker 02-08-04, 11:19 PM	Yeah I was just in a campaign on the weekend that was like fantasy anime meets D&D. Lets just say I was the only one besides a friend I brought along that knew the rules and system of D&D more than "I roll to attack." I pretty much had to play a half-monster to be on par with the others in the campaign. Hell I wanted to just be a human for the feat. Well the DM got me on the phone and wanted to know what kind of race I was going to be (he thought being a john doe human was boring) so I up and said, "How about a solar?" Yes, and without hesitation he said "Ok." So im running around with all the solars spell like abilities at will and the only things im missing out on are the damage reduction, regeneration, and wings (his idea of balance). It was pretty far from balenced with all the power words at will, imprisonment, invisibility, and wish at will. Yeah but the melees where stronger. He decided to raise stats by +5-8, made all x2 crits x3, made new feats to expand crit ranges and multipliers, and last but not least, whenever you get a roll in your crit range you will never have to confirm it. Yeah so if you had a 12-20 crit range and you where fighting a monster will a billion AC, you would hit often, and extremly hard. Yeah.... I didnt like the template doing all the work for me. Im debating on whether or not to go back next week.
cowdragon 02-09-04, 02:45 AM	I had a two-headed half-dragon sorcerer/shadow adept. It was all from roleplaying from level one. When the party bought magic items, I bought magic books and read them. All my stats had +5. I could cast two spells/round cause of the mult-voice feat. I even had Karmic Strike for my touch spells that lasted a long time. It was kinda sad. The good news is that I didn't have to feel so guilty after the party fighter killed him in a duel. It came to both of us Karmic striking away. Fighter won. Mine lost. :( But yes, I know the feeling. The Cowdragon :mage:
ashera 02-09-04, 02:57 AM	I had a paladin in a epic game with all the mounted combat feats and a valourous lance, which meant i did x 4 damage on a charge. Coupled with smite evil and divine might, i could easily do about 200 damage on a charge. (I could also go much higher by using spells, but chose not to) The fighter can in a very good round with full attack do about 150 points of damage. Besides that there was a arcane trickster and a cleric paladin. Yesterday I had the DM kill my character, so that she could be replaced by a sorcerer, so the rest of the party can feel they get to do something in the encounters too. The fighter is happy, but the spellcasters still complain about not being able to do enough damage
Shar Baenre 02-09-04, 06:36 AM	Alright... I didn't lay out specifics... here's what I have that makes me too tough. But first..... the idea of the level drag is a good one, btw, BUT my character's best friend is a Black Flame Zealot, and together we're working towards A- finding a volcano seed (an item they talked about on the site a few weeks ago), and B- getting a few of the long-forgotten wizard kings to come help us float the thing once we get it raised from the sand. Alright, now here's why Kalithor is unstoppable, I'm only 9th level, but I started with an 18 INT, put both level points into it as well, getting a 20 INT. Also, upon completion of my apprenticeship, my master enscribed a permanant mage-tattoo on my scalp of a balor (finding a quest item for said balor was my final task before becoming red wizard myself) that increased my INT another 2 points. THEN... the DM randomly rolled an ioun stone of +2 intel. To boot, I took Spellcasting Prodigy as my starter feat and am up to greater spell focus in my chosen school. Add the spell power for Red Wizards, and end result- My 1st level necro spells have a save of 28!!!! Its really not unbalanced, cuz I didn't Min/Max... I just know the rules and the extra little tricks because I DM so much myself. But I still look at my buddy with a guilty chuckle when I gain another level.
Bopple 02-09-04, 06:57 AM	Well, make him 3.5 Red Wizard. ;)
DakezDarkenblood 02-09-04, 11:09 AM	Indeed. That will fix all the problems. Possibly to the point where you stop playing him in despair.
Shar Baenre 02-09-04, 11:09 PM	Like I said, I don't wanna change him... His power lends way to his arrogance. I just think its kinda funny and a little troublesome to my DM when I gain a level.... But, that's still no need to castrate him with 3.5... enough of our game suffers from the differentials between the two systems. And, I must admit, I'm laughing now, cuz you're right, I prolly would feel some despair if I did that!! But fear not... it hasn't been without penalty... I got hit with a good-ole SMITE from a paladin a few weeks ago, and then, to boot, a blackguard with a lifestealer hit me last night pretty good!
DakezDarkenblood 02-11-04, 08:29 AM	If deep down you don't want to change him then you're not really feeling guilty when you level up. You're just thinking you should So let the perceived guilt go and revel in the power to cast a level 9 necromancy spell with a DC so high that it can kill 10 level 20 fighters when targetting their strongest saving throw unless they roll a 20.
cowdragon 02-11-04, 10:34 AM	in response to the 3.5 red wizard comment...waaaaa! :( I will never understand why spell power was so thouroughly ruined. My group plays 3.5, but our houserules for it involve replacing anything with spell DC's to go back to 3.0 versions. Spell Focus = +2, spell power = +1 DC+1caster level, etc... The Cowdragon :mage:
Mr. VanderMeer 02-11-04, 10:41 AM	I have in the past played a ranger that was so good with his bow that he killed most monsters before they reached us. The rest of the party was not very happy.
DakezDarkenblood 02-11-04, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by cowdragon in response to the 3.5 red wizard comment...waaaaa! :( I will never understand why spell power was so thouroughly ruined. My group plays 3.5, but our houserules for it involve replacing anything with spell DC's to go back to 3.0 versions. Spell Focus = +2, spell power = +1 DC+1caster level, etc... The Cowdragon :mage: Because saving throws are supposed to actually save a character? Being strong in a save area is supposed to protect you from that area at least 50% of the time, all other things being equal? A fighter 20 (Fort +12) With a base con 20 (dwarf +5) With all level stat gains into con (25 +7) And a book that adds 5 con (30 +10) And an item that adds +6 (36 + 13) And a cloak that adds +5 (13 + 5 = 18) Using his dwarven resistance to spells (+2 = +20) And possessing Great Fortitude (+2 = +22) Ends up with a staggering +34 to save Fort. It took him pretty much all of his resources to get this. A necromancer/red wizard/archmage With a base int of 18 (+4) Who puts all his points into int (23 = +6) and takes Spellcasting prodigy (virtual 25 = +7) and gets a book that adds +5 (30 = +10) And the item that adds +6 (36 = +13) And then adds in spell power to maximum (+12 iirc) And takes spell focus and greater spell focus (+4) And then casts a 9th level spell (+9) Ends up with a +38 It didn't nearly cost him as many resources as the dwarf, who would have benefited more from spreading his points out among strength and con. The dwarf, who is the toughest person on the planet and FAR beyond what a level 20 fighter should look like, Fort Save wise, still must roll a 14+ or DIE INSTANTLY. If the wizard laughs maniacally and gets a surprise round and opens fire with a Mage's Disjunction (Mords) the fighter suddenly has a reduction of 8 points from his fort save and, while still possessing a con of 30 and being 20th level, he suddenly must roll a 20 or die. And that's as good as a fighter gets. The average high powered superhero that is fighter 20 (or barbarian 20, ranger 20, monk 20, cleric 20, druid 20) needs that 20 in the first place. A super-tanked out paladin is the only one who can look at that DC and go "I should be able to make that... maybe... I hope... ". That's not right. It's just as unbalanced as the 9 to 20 vorpal scimitars.
Shar Baenre 02-12-04, 08:06 AM	You make a good point Darkenblood. Actually, yesterday was my turn to DM, and they fought a similiarly powerful wizard with their own characters. However, spell power was not a factor, and they still got rocked. I made the character based off my red wizard, just to test him against similiar characters, but took away the spell power, just to get a differential. The thing that makes it deadly is the intelligence score and that Spellcasting Prodigy feat! And looking at it from more points of view, as well as taking in the equation you just put up for Fort Saves vs. DC's, here's what I've concluded. I'm a necromancer-this means that most of my major damage spells are touch spells anyway, so that in itself lines me up for more than the normal amount of danger to a wizard. I have a fairly high scores, but STILL I ended up with an Ioun Stone to further increase my most important one. Now, whereas, until yesterday I felt that maybe some rule or another may be getting exploited, I now see that its not the case. The challenge here for this particular character would lie in the surprise round (I NEVER like getting sneak damage!), as well as in the AOO's... I'm up there trying to Ghoul Touch you with a DC of 29, just take an AOO. Everything we've fought usually does minimum damage per hit of around 15, and that's a high concentration check! And lastly, if the characters are toating ioun stones, then the enemies need be having them or similiar items as well.... I didn't give myself that item, and we don't play in a campaign where you can go to Mage-Walmart and get anything you can afford, so..... Anyway... That was just my personal for-instance. But I'm just really starting to think that Spell Power isn't really THAT much the issue here. Oh, and Mr. Vandermeer... I've seen that one a time or two, and you're totally right... the barbarians of the group get quite ticked when they don't get a chance to try out their latest attack bonuses and weapons *wink*.
Myrridin 02-12-04, 09:31 AM	You can casts Mage Hand, and then the spell you want to deliver ranged touch attacks. Yes, this only works if you prepare. Does the Archmage get the Arcane Reach abililty, like the Heirophant can take for Divine magic? The other thing that Darkblood's exercise shows is that the mage is still stronger, if he's targetting the fighter's "strong" save. What if he targets Will or Reflex? The fighter has no chance; unless 20's an autosave in your game.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-12-04, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by Myrridin You can casts Mage Hand, and then the spell you want to deliver ranged touch attacks. Yes, this only works if you prepare. Does the Archmage get the Arcane Reach abililty, like the Heirophant can take for Divine magic? You can't use Mage Hand to deliver touch spells. You can use Spectral Hand (Sor/Wiz 2, Necromancy) to deliver low level touch spells (4th or lower), but mage hand only manipulates objects at range. The Archmage can take Arcane Reach as a high arcana ability.
Kalithor 10-19-04, 02:23 AM	alas, it is true. I am evil and mean. but I'm back. P.S. Moon elves make better dragon biscuits than that batch of gold elves I brought home last time.
Black Kitten 10-19-04, 07:11 AM	I have had a character in my campaign some time ago that was an archer which had gotten her hands on an oathbow. I was terrified when she started to deal damage... (took out a lvl 17 Drow Ranger (evil drizzt clone) in 1 round at level 13). She wasn't as frightened of gaining levels than I was.
Callista 10-19-04, 08:59 AM	I have a similar issue with a rogue of mine; she started with 18 Dex and has been gaining it in various ways so that at level 4, she has a 22. Needless to say, she's absolutely deadly with ranged weapons (her crossbow is newly enchanted as well), and within 30 feet and adding sneak attack damage, she easily matches even the group's barbarian. Add to that having maxed out all the stealth skills and Tumble, she's easily the most powerful character in the group; and, having rolled well on hit points, she has more than anyone other than the barbarian. She's gotten hit with dragon breath on more than one occasion, but NEVER taken damage. She's also tied for the highest AC in the party. What I do is have the character (who is NG) deliberately take risks rather than let the rest of the party take them. Though there's another rogue in the party, she will always be the one who opens doors, tries things that may have bad consequences, etc. She has used herself as a human shield on two occasions; and there was that incident when she pushed two people out of the way of a gelatinous cube, getting engulfed herself for her trouble (bad time to roll a 1 on a reflex save, if ever there was one!). Often, in battle, she will taunt her enemies and get them to focus on her instead of spellcasters or anyone who's weakened. Essentially, she's soaking up damage for the rest of the party, or else (what's more usual) simply being exposed to it, then evading. It solves the problem of me thinking the game is "too easy", at least; and the rest of the party is usually rather glad for her presence.
Avatarblu 10-19-04, 11:44 AM	Ok, The items you have are way more than what an average 9th level char has, and while they all just "happened" to be that way, it pretty much worked out in your favor. 9th level necromancer red wizard right, I don't have the book on me, do the prereq's allow it, and don't you spellcaster level lose out, meaning that a 7/2 mage , red wizard cast spells at a 7th level mage or a 2nd level rw? If you are really serious about wanting to cut your l33t necromancer to normal why not develop a distaste for magically enhancing int items. A sort of "I'm so smart I don't need them" type deal. Or maybe decide to take your char into melee more often or taking on more of the physical risks the party takes. There are many ways to do this. If, however you are just bragging about your character build. Please post it in the character optimization board. There are many l33 skIlLed players which will be able to revel in your uberness. :)
Kalithor 10-24-04, 03:11 AM	Oh, Kalithor gets into the melee. He was forced to deliver the killing hit to a bronze dragon with his scythe when everybody else failed their Will saves against the repulsion breath. I've always played the character as a very aggressive personality, and he likes to get into the thick of the combat from time to time, just to have fun with the others. We're starting the campaign again after four months of downtime, and everything is now 3.5 friendly (which still makes Spell Power a bit useless in the case of a necromancer, but whatever). I do kinda favor the fact that now my Spellcasting Prodigy feat gives me bonus spells, whereas before it only affected DCs. As far as the abundance of items, its a pretty common thing for red wizards to be decked out, since that's what their whole society is about. It even says in Lords of Darkness that the typical red wizard will have double magic items when encountered. But I honestly don't think there will be any worry about shunning intellect boosting items now, cuz I doubt the DM will have the gusto to put them out there at all anyway. And you don't stagger in caster level when you switch. Its straight ahead with "+1 to caster level" right at the first level of the class. The only things that suffer are saves and base attack. I have to admit though, once I switched him to 3.5, I felt totally castrated, but we had a mage duel between him, and the other DM's wizard in my campaign (also bumped down to 3.5), and it wasn't as bad as I expected it to be. I just hope that Complete Arcane makes an impact. It seems like since 3.5, wizards have just been cut back again and again, and now, with the chance to swap turn attempts for metamagic spells, on top of their combat abilities, two good saves, and the ability to wear armor, clerics are tons tougher now. I always saw clerics and wizards on similiar power levels, just with different focuses, but now its obvious that wizards are backburnered a bit. We'll see what's new next month though, I guess. Oh, and BTW, if I was just wanting to brag about my character, I would have done that in February when I first posted all this, so I find that a lil disrespectful. I was just bringing the thread back up to see if anybody new on the board might have characters they feel guilty about to add to the conversation for fun sake.
ck2001wendt 10-24-04, 10:55 AM	If you want to slow it down, so your friends are gaining levels on you, you could try: 1) to cast a bunch of permanent powers on yourself; 2) to think about Savage Species rituals; 3) item creation Is the campaign a 3.5 campaign, while your Red Wizard is 3.0? Because if that's true, then that's the real problem here. You're overpowered because you're using a "banned" mechanic, to use the Magic parlance.
Callista 10-24-04, 02:48 PM	He said they got converted... so I'm assuming his 3.0 wizard was changed to fit in with 3.5 rules. The Item Creation bit is a good idea, actually; especially since you can allow other members of your party to use the items. It should even things out nicely--and your party members will love you, because a lot of what makes them powerful came from you!
Shard of Suzail 10-24-04, 10:00 PM	Being that tough isnt a problem, its an asset. You simply need to work out what being that tough is good for. You are at the good point where you can look at the world and say "i want it to be this way", then you go and try to make it so. As to the other players, well, you`ll find that changing the world often needs a few extra pairs of hands. While you are fighting some things, they will often be needed to do other things elsewhere that are crucial to your cause (like you fighting a liche and the party assaulting his phylactery). And sensible foes will dedicate their attacks to you, they wont be concerned about other pesky player annoyances. This will help your fellows survive and will give you a proper test of your abilities. Think big and take on challenges head on. Get busy with making that ideal world and removing everyone on it that doesnt fit in with your plans.
pseudonyms 10-24-04, 10:36 PM	I've never had a problem with a character being too "tough", but I find myself subconsciously min/maxing the Hell out of skill-heavy characters. For example, in a D20 modern campaign I'm in right now, I began playing a Charismatic Hero as a nice change of pace from the fighters/clerics I'd been running. Well, unfortunately, the tweaking half of my brain got the better of me, and he's now level 6 and has a +27 in Bluff and Diplomacy. It's pathetic how friggin' good he is. Me - Oh Mr. Bank Guard sir, you may not know this, but I'm President of this company and I've come to check the security of this branch. Would you mind turning off all the cameras and unlocking the vault for me?(Rolls bluff, gets a 1) Guard - (Rolls sense motive, gets a 20, still believes) Of course, sir! I'll have the alarms off and the vault opened before you can say Munchkin! Me - Excellent...
±Ðiaߣo_ßastee£e± 10-24-04, 11:49 PM	I might be a little late on this, but are you sure all those bonuses Stack?
IceFractal 10-25-04, 02:00 AM	I had a Half-Minotaur War Hulk (using the rather broken Half-Minotaur template from Dragon), using a monkey-gripped spiked chain to dominate the battlefield. He did so much damage it was criminal and with Large and in Charge most monsters never reached the rest of the party. It had a cool character concept but it was just so broken nobody else even got a chance to do anything unless they scouted way ahead of him. I'm trying something based around a similar combat trick soon, using a rope dart/meteor hammer for even more ridiculous reach, but without the over-the -top strength so hopefully it won't be too overpowering. Maybe I'll ressurect the juggernaught if we have a really high power game.
Kalithor 10-25-04, 04:42 AM	You are at the good point where you can look at the world and say "i want it to be this way", then you go and try to make it so. True, unless you have a DM that is gun-shy to change anything that is in a sourcebook when it comes to power figures and town leadership. This could be a problem for any PC, but its especially bad for an evil one. Oh, and on the 3.5 at the same time as 3.0, we were doing every wizard that way, not just PC ones. We just never fought other wizards that were quite as bedecked as us. Either way, we played the campaign for the first time in months tonight, and I don't know that power was really the problem. As good as he can be at it, our other DM hates DMing, and would rather play (which puts me in a bad spot, but I suppose is still a compliment). We'll see what happens next, but now my character is totally weakened and he's still not having fun, so I don't know. And as far as the question about things stacking, the only parts that might be of questionability would be the tattoo that raises the intell and the ioun stone, but we all agreed that those are seperate enough to stack. The rest is all feat related, so yes, it all stacks.
Kalithor 10-25-04, 04:48 AM	Oh, and btw, thanks Icefractal for posting about your character. The issue of mine has become somewhat of a deadhorse, but I brought the thread back to hear about other people's and how they deal with the situations so the DM doesn't just throw in his towel. Glad to see ya post something! Thanks.
TheGreenGriffon 10-25-04, 02:03 PM	The sickest game I played in was an attempt by a DM who had just started with this particular group. Im guessing he wanted to get favor with us so he decided to pretty much roll up anything we wanted so I decided to play a Drow Fighter/Rogue and rolled him up. He was a uber powerful character for our starting level of 3. Then I found out almost all the other players were taking stuff like Half Dragon, Half Celestial and one was a Half-Orc Barbarian Werebear. So I the DM wanted me to take something else. I wanted to play a Drow so on top of that he allowed me to Play a Half-Vampire from the new Ravenloft Monstrous Manual for 3ed. He kept on talking about how this uncoming fight would push our limits and wed need all the power we had to defeat it and one of us might die anyways so we were allfreaked out expecting dragons or Pit fiends. Instead we fought some averagely tough demons, the toughest being CR 10-12 and we killed them not only without anyone dying but without one person even taking more than half their HP in damage. Tehn he went and handed us the loot these guys had that turned out to be more than a Dragons hoard for a great wyrm in mgaical items and coin. Needless to say I quit the campaign when my character obtained a +10 equivelent blade, a belt that gave +6 top all physcial attributes, scabbard of keen edges, cloak of displacement all in one night at low level just to name a few of them!! I had to hold myself from laughing at the DM for being such an obviously stupid monty hauler.
TheGreenGriffon 10-25-04, 02:05 PM	I've never had a problem with a character being too "tough", but I find myself subconsciously min/maxing the Hell out of skill-heavy characters. For example, in a D20 modern campaign I'm in right now, I began playing a Charismatic Hero as a nice change of pace from the fighters/clerics I'd been running. Well, unfortunately, the tweaking half of my brain got the better of me, and he's now level 6 and has a +27 in Bluff and Diplomacy. It's pathetic how friggin' good he is. Im gonna have to start playing d20 Modern