Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-16-04, 12:49 PM	Hello, I wanted to get a greater number of opinions on this character that has entered into an RP we began. I feel very strongly objective against this character for many reasons, and have had friends pick it apart for me. However, because they are friends and they know this person, their opinions may seem biased, therefore I wanted some other outside opinions. Feel free to pick it apart and say whatever you might think of it, I want everyone's god honest opinion on this character, and give me plenty of reason why I should insist it be removed from the game. ------------ D & D Stats Race: Drow Sex: Male Class: Fighter/Archmage/ High Priest of Eillistraee Level: 45th/50th/47th Str: 24 Int: 23 Wis: 22 Dex: 24 Con: 23 Cha: 20 Com: 25 HP: 324 Alignment: Chaotic Good Items carried most of the time: [within his 'holding' items, he carries a wide variety of miscellaneous magic items to many to list., Like a wand of wonder or a deck of manythings. Most of them are minor magics and of little consequence] Holy Symbol of Eillistraee, Cloak of Warmth [with pockets of holding], Amulet of proof against location and detection, Ring of Blinking, Ring of Protection, Bracers of Defence, Gauntlets of Speed, +5 Elven Chainmail [enamaled black], Satchel of holding, Ioun Stones [energy absorbant], Boots of Elvenkind, Weapons: Twin Vorpal Sunblades :( KyorlTsoss[Guardkiss] & Elghinnchath[deathfire] Forged by the greater god, Hephistus in repayment for the service of returning his Hammer and Anvil from the Realm of Hades. Their making was not without cost, Sastraka had to put part of himself into these blades. Hephistus made Sastraka work the bellow to keep the fires of his forge hot and ripe for the art of Blacksmithing and aided Hephistus in the spell weaving and enchantments. The forging of these blades was a trial of sweat, blood, tears and love. These blades are Intelligent and possess numerous abilities. They have a very strong Will so not just anyone can wield them, only those specified by Sastraka. One blade is offensive, the other is Defensive, such is their nature. The most Important abilities of both blades are thus: Any successful hit to the neck, decapitates the Foe [Vorpal], Upon command, they both can issue forth rays of natural sunlight[sunblade], They both have the ability to absorb the Essence/soul/life force of another creature upon the death blow. KyorlTsoss Major Powers Blade turn Once per round Turn Undead at level of wielder 3/day, Dismissal 3/day, Light at will, can act as a sword of dancing for 3 turns. Can be summoned to Sastraka's hand at will over any distance. Cast Heal 1/day, Wall of Fire/ice/Force, each one 3/day, Protection from Evil 15" Raduis at the level of the Wielder. Avoidence at will. Elghinnchath Major Powers Disintigrate Once per round, Powerword Kill/Stun each 1/turn, Trap the Soul 3/day, Feeblemind 3/day, Curse 1/day at level of the Weilder, Telekinesis 4500 Ib's 3/day, Can be summoned to Sastraka's hand at will over any distance, Avoidance at will, Earthquake 1/week.at the level of the wielder. Haste at the level of the wielder 1/Rnd, Lightening bolt Lvl of caster 3/day. Defences Contingency Volley If a spell is cast at or around Sastraka[15 foot radious], it is re-directed instantly back to the caster of the attacking spell. Contingency Prismatic Sphere If ever he is forced unconcious, the spherer springs up around him. Contingency-Heal Upon recieving a fatal blow or a near fatal blow, whether that be magical or physical, His body is instantly healed fully, poisons neutralised, his body restored to full health. Contingency Word of Recall Upon recieving a fatal blow or a near fatal blow, whether that be magical or physical, his body and all of his possessions are instantly transported to his Temple of Eilistraee located within his Citadel. each contingency spell is cast upon a single bead that forms a necklace which he wears around his neck under his armour; because only one Contingency spell may be cast upon one object at one time. . They are a one shot deal, once they have been used up, Sastraka must re-cast them upon himself. Each spell is cast daily upon the beads. Elminster's Effulgent Epuration Elminster's Evasion Violet Bodysheild At Will, he can summon around his body an energy shield that absorbs all magic cast at him and the Energy field destroys all objects and effects. This is a Derivative of the Prismatic Sphere spell. Bracers of Defence, +5 Elven Chainmail [enamaled black], 4 Ioun Stones [magical energy absorbant up to 8th level spells], I have lived for thousands of Millenia. Blessed by the Goddess Eillistraee when I emerged from the Underdark, I traveled with my two brothers, across lands, across the planes of existance spending many years adventuring and gaining Power. Many happy and sad times I had upon Ansalon, I fought my first proper war upon that land. I am happily married to Kauspayne. She is my best friend, there is nothing I would not do for Her. She has blessed me with many fine children who I love dearly and bring me great joy. For an age, I was guardian of loedaere. In time I left and opened the doors of My Citadel to family, friends and strangers alike. The Citadel, I built a very long time ago, it has always been my refuge and home. A few times I have used it in war; as it was designed to. I have instigated campaigns afainst the minions of Lolth, the Githyanki and Githgiri. Twice I have taken on the Might of Hell as they burst through onto Prime worlds. The Citadel Still stands, I still live but for now, it is a place of peace, love and family.
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-16-04, 12:51 PM	PS: he also tries to say that 2nd ED allows this and this is by what he plays. I did not play 2nd ED very long, but somehow I don't think that some of it would still be allowed.
Theocracity 06-16-04, 12:57 PM	The problem is that it's ridiculously difficult to tell what's overpowered when you're playing at that high of a level. The rule kind of break down in epic levels, and that character is beyond epic.
Krelios 06-16-04, 12:58 PM	None of this is Kosher by 2nd ed at all--they had level caps on elves. Ellistraee didn't exist as a god and he has more levels than any god in any sourcebook. You've got to be joking here... 142nd level???
SoldierOfFortune187 06-16-04, 12:59 PM	I am failing to see the question, mostly because the context of the situation were not presented. Is this a charcter built to be some kind of god, an additional player to an ongoing game where every else has 150+ character levels, what? Please try to be a little more elaborate on describing the situation so we know what we are critiquing. Thank you for your time.
Makaris 06-16-04, 01:12 PM	The DM that allows such a character is an idiot. The DM running such a game is an idiot. I wish I could sugar coat that, but it is the undeniable facts. D&D was made to support 1st - 20th level. Of course, with epic progressions, you can go much higher than that. However, eventually the stiching that holds the game together will begin to deterioate. It falls apart. Utop of the stupidity of a game of that high level has too much damned math, too much dice rolling [it must take a long time to determine damage], and is NOT neccassary. Level, say, fourty is enough to have a game where the characters involved are extremely powerful. Near godlike. Hell, the spell casters can create whole new forms of life (an ideal time to start the campaign over, set in the future and playing as the races that the epic level wizard created)! But level 150's? Sounds like you just want to have big numbers. To get that high level, the character must have defeated lot's and lot's of gods. Silly. Finally, it seems that the player that made that monstrosity does not have the slightest clue on how to actually make a character. 324 hp? At level 150!? I could make a character with that at level 25, easily. Not only is the character of a ridiculous level, but it isn't made correctly to boot! And 2nd edition was 'weaker' than third. This is just stupid. Geez...
Prachett 06-16-04, 03:47 PM	Ahh... don't really know what to say....
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-16-04, 04:22 PM	It is more so the profile and character I wished critiqued. And thank you everyone for your replies. They are greatly appreciated. The situation happens to be an ongoing RP board. To bring a little something to the community we set up a war that had to do with some new developement within the realm castle. As an aside we brought in an X factor bad guy. Sorta adding another layer to the rp, so that rather it being one against another, it would be a vs b and c vs a+b. However, this character, which the typist tries to pass off as a legitely built up 2nd Ed DnD char, is what is generating discord amongst some of us. The game was not geared towards god like of epic blow out characters. But more of a moderate populous. The bad guys are brought forth before the castle and the challenge to the castle defenders is to beat them. However, I found that bringing in super man drow over there was overbeat(kill), therefore leaving little of the game remaining. If his character were considered legit the game would be over in a matter of moments. However, I do not believe his spoutings of having rped the char for 20 years on and offline and built him up. Other viewers of the profile have as well brought up many discrepencies. Different ppl notice different things, however. So I was curious to see what each different person found, and to show myself that I was not wrong on this call.
ehrin 06-16-04, 04:35 PM	I for one note the HP thing mentioned above... even with only a +5 to HP because of constitution to each hit die, (and a 23 would give you +6) he would have had to roll negative numbers each level. a 142nd level character, with 45 levels of fighter, should have over 225 HP if he just rolled all 5's. Then add another 200 or more for his average other classes, and then add the 710 HP his constitution would supply, and you are in the 1200 range, easily. ANd that's not considering he probably rolled a few 6's and 8's in his career. Second, a drow with a sunblade? Drow take penalties from sunlight, I can't imagine one waving a sunblade around willingly. Every time he used it, he would blind himself, lose dex or something.
Thorak 06-16-04, 04:43 PM	Well, besides the fact that this character is more powerful than most gods and thus, he's probably being hunted by every single evil god and demon lord who has time to kill. But I digress. Wait till he falls asleep. Anti-magic field, coup de grace. Wipe hands, gloat. And if you're worried about him waking up, Anti-magic field, then levitate/create/whatever a 10-tonish hunk of nonmagical rock just above the AMF and him at the AMF's center. Then drop it. Without his contingencies, even if he survives the impact he'll be slowly crushed to death, all while not being able to breathe/move to cast any kind of spells. As for whether he could have gotten the character; it's so unreasonably overpowered, it's hilarious. He has more character levels than any 3 Gods I've ever seen. He has more magical items, similarly, that are more powerful than any deities' toys. Given how easily he can die from mundane things, as I provided above, I find it surprising nothing would have had him assassinated by now.
Theocracity 06-16-04, 05:09 PM	Originally posted by Kyra_Tigersclaw It is more so the profile and character I wished critiqued. And thank you everyone for your replies. They are greatly appreciated. The situation happens to be an ongoing RP board. To bring a little something to the community we set up a war that had to do with some new developement within the realm castle. As an aside we brought in an X factor bad guy. Sorta adding another layer to the rp, so that rather it being one against another, it would be a vs b and c vs a+b. However, this character, which the typist tries to pass off as a legitely built up 2nd Ed DnD char, is what is generating discord amongst some of us. The game was not geared towards god like of epic blow out characters. But more of a moderate populous. The bad guys are brought forth before the castle and the challenge to the castle defenders is to beat them. However, I found that bringing in super man drow over there was overbeat(kill), therefore leaving little of the game remaining. If his character were considered legit the game would be over in a matter of moments. However, I do not believe his spoutings of having rped the char for 20 years on and offline and built him up. Other viewers of the profile have as well brought up many discrepencies. Different ppl notice different things, however. So I was curious to see what each different person found, and to show myself that I was not wrong on this call. Good on you for being suspicious. This character is very obviously made up out of thin air. I'm really sure he's been playing this character online since 1984 :looloo:. Besides, it wouldn't matter even if he was real; if he doesn't fit into the power level of your game, then it doesn't matter how many years the guy's been playing, it would still be banned.
was_fired 06-16-04, 05:22 PM	Damn, this is one the stupidest jokes I have yet to read. No character is playable at 100th level. The game break down far before this point. Levels one to thirty are where the game should stay. Those last ten being only for wonderful players who earned it from level one.
Astanphaeus 06-16-04, 06:25 PM	I agree with the general sentiment thus far. I'm inclined to think this is a joke. Minor point: I don't believe there was ever an "archmage" class in 2nd Edition. ~ A.
Thorak 06-16-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus Minor point: I don't believe there was ever an "archmage" class in 2nd Edition. ~ A. And if that's the 3.X version, it lacks the ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells the Archmage requires to take the PrC. If we ignore the epic level caps, even.
Janfar 06-16-04, 07:26 PM	I've played a coherent game up to about 67th level or so, but I agree that eventually, the rules start to fall apart. My epic campaign had a lot of house rules to prevent the game from becoming unbalanced, and it felt like trying to stay on a rapidly sinking boat. Eventually, the rules fail. Characters are virtually unstoppable, yet easily stopped at the same time. Combat is laughable. Character sheets go on for pages and pages. The highest level NPC I've ever created is 80th, and he was a greater deity. The characters never encountered him, he was just for my own amusement. After that campaign, i set a limit on levels. At around 25th level or so I would end the campaign. It felt a lot better. Level 30 is probably the cap. But I still remember that 67th level campaign, and sometimes I think that someone could make it work. But truly, DnD is not about 150th level characters.
eRaz0r 06-16-04, 08:25 PM	1/ If this character is from 2nd edition, then he was poorly converted into 3rd edition. His Hps were obviously calculated under 2nd ed and never recalculated (remember HD maxed out at 9th-11th level (depending on class) and thereafter you just got +x per level and no con bonus!) There weren't any Male Drow Priests (female priests of Lolth only) Any male drow Priests were house-ruled in. There were Level Limits for non humans (except for deities). Archmage isn't a standard class in 2nd Ed. The 3.x Prestige Class Archmage requires things this character doesn't have. His stats are pretty woeful, but are pretty in-line for 2nd ed (since 25 was the highest stat back then). Also under 2nd ed, this character is really only about 50th level, since in that system, multiclass characters were meant to be equivalent to a single class character of about their highest level. Of course, that was incredibly wrong to think that, because they plainly weren't - but still, thats where the level limits were supposed to kick in and fix things for you... Generally speaking, even if this character were legit (and I haven't even begun to touch the munchkiny value of all his shizzit) it's still a 2nd Edition character. Tell him to come back with a build with all the feats, requirements for prestige classes and so forth using legitimate classes with a maximum character level equal to the average for your group. If he can't do justice to his favourite character with such a restriction, then he doesn't want to play with you enough, and you haven't lost anyone worth playing with.
shift244 06-16-04, 09:35 PM	i object the objection. this is a perfectly fine character. other characters that would fit well with it: - dream rogue, with self concealment 100%, a dire mace of distruption and slay construct, a circlet of mind spell immunity, and a sneak attack of approximately 50d6. :D seriously, i did not even bother to read past the class levels he has. it is just not possible. if they insist that this character is legal, just submit the rogue above to assasinate him, then retire the rogue somewhere, until something like this pops up again.
Astanphaeus 06-16-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by eRaz0r There weren't any Male Drow Priests (female priests of Lolth only) Males could be priests of Vhaeraun. However, Eilistraee's clergy was composed entirely of females. This was presented in "The Drow of the Underdark", a 2nd edition FR sourcebook. There were Level Limits for non humans (except for deities). There was an optional system somewhere (might've even been the DMG) that allowed demihumans to surpass racial caps. They just needed disgusting amounts of XP to do it... far more than a human. Archmage isn't a standard class in 2nd Ed. Something is itching at the back of my brain about this. It may have been a designation earned for surpassing 20th level as a mage. I'm going to have to go find Elminster's stats. I seem to recall him being called an "archmage". I'll go check that now. I'm sure everyone is dying to know... because this character's approval may depend on it! :rofl: ~ A.
Astanphaeus 06-16-04, 10:15 PM	Nope. Elminster's a mere 26th level "magic-user". Definitely no "archmage" in 2nd Edition, then. If anyone were an archmage, you'd think it'd be the Big E. ~ A.
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-17-04, 12:22 AM	You have all been completely wonderful in bringing to light the faults of this character, which the guy is still insisting he created legitly, however, due to the amout of objectivity it has brought forth, he has withdrawn. <<hears the cheers>> If any of you are interested in looking further at the situation from where it began, you are more than welcome, and to give any input you might have, or advice on the game and the characters there. There's much freeform, but we at least try to keep it believable...well few of us. Also, if anyone is a Dragon of Pern fan, there's a char there I would adore to be picked apart, considering I no nothing of pern save what I found on the website "Pern 101". Like I said, the place is freeform and allows all genre, just asks that you keep it realistic, so to speak. Obvious, many of us found this previous guy unrealistic.
Wizard 06-17-04, 12:58 AM	Yeah...to have built that character in 3.0/.5, he'd need to have gone through about 1900 encounters. Remember this is in 3e, which levels faster than 2nd did. Now, say that, on average, he went through three encounters per week. That's a lot higher than most people, but it's possible. Well, that would take 12 years to create that character, at a super-accelerated rate. Don't you think he might have noticed his hp to be a little low sometime in there? :)
TheBard 06-17-04, 08:01 AM	I would most definatly allow this character in my game... and act accordingly. If any such character would exist in any realm of being, the Gods themselves would act against him. And gods are smart and there are plenty of possibilities to kill him. The stone idea would be nice. :angel: That would only be coherent with the setting, imo. After he's dead, let him make a new first level character. All ends well.
DracoPixie 06-21-04, 05:49 PM	I happen to know the player of this character quite well and RP with him a lot, he is not a powergamer and doesn't usually play characters of over 10th level (from what I've seen). He does not play 3rd edition and it is beyond me why this was taken to a 3rd edition website when the character in question is PURELY a 2nd edition character. You can have an archmage in second edition, it is a title given to a mage of over 18th level I think (could be wrong on the exact level). This is exactly like the lord title that fighters got after level 9... if you dont belive me then have a look in the second edition phb under classes. The hp could also be that low... if any of you remember in second edition multiclassing you divide hp gain by the amount of classes you had (to balance with single class players) and after level 10 in most classes you only got a small amount of hp per level (somthing like 2 hp for mages and 4 hp for fighters) and you do NOT get to add your con bonus (as far as I know... again could be wrong). Another important fact is that the experiance to gain that many levels is do-able, I've seen pure 3rd edition characters played for only a couple a years get upto level 30+ so to say that a character that has been around for 20 odd years (table top and later online rp) could get to that level... not to mention that after a certain point the exp needed to go up a level in 2nd edition reaches a cap (can't remember what that is exactly and I'm not diggin out the books to find out so there :-P). I suggest before you people flame a character you know nothing about you actually take the time to look at the rules system and don't just assume that there is somthing wrong with it. And I'm so glad that you took some joy from these stupid assumptions and remarks Kyra.... too bad I had to blow them outta the water for ya.... mwahahahahahahahahaha!
wonlee76 06-21-04, 06:25 PM	If this is a 2nd edition character then in essence the character is a Drow Fighter/Mage/Cleric multiclass with fancier titles taking the place of the core class. Under 2nd edition rules, a drow could not take this multi-class. Only demi-human race I'm aware of that could take this multi-class is a 1/2 elf. The HP seems to work out fine since core classes received a set amount of hp after level 9 or 10 with no con modifier added. I'm unaware of any xp chart that sets up core class levels above level 20 much less beyond level 40 but I'm pretty certain the 2nd edition DMG may have had rules that gave some kind of progression for beyond level 20 (or some other supplement type book). (Actually, I think the Dark Sun setting had some rules in 2nd edition in place for characters or at least wizards to reach up to level 30 or 40 in the supplement about dragons in the Dark Sun setting). Demi-humans were normally allowed to go above a certain level in certain classes. I believe there is an option available in 2nd edition DMG that allowed further progression above and beyond the "cap" for double xp and a new cap is set for high attribute score in a prime stat for the class. For example, an 18 strength elf could get up to level 16 fighter instead of level 12 fighter (or something like that). I see at least 2 rule violations in this character under 2nd edition rules. There are at least a few RP violations as well in my opinion (Male High Priest of Elistraee???). So even under 2nd edition rules, this character breaks at least a few rules. I would not allow a character of this magnitude join in on a campaign unless the rest of the world was equally super powered. If the gods in the campaign were level 100 beings and your typical orc was a level 30 barbarian, then this character wouldn't be considered overpowered. :)
eudas 06-21-04, 06:52 PM	it's a stupid character. kill it. eudas
Nick Soapdish 06-21-04, 06:58 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Another important fact is that the experiance to gain that many levels is do-able, I've seen pure 3rd edition characters played for only a couple a years get up to level 30+ so to say that a character that has been around for 20 odd years (table top and later online rp) could get to that level... not to mention that after a certain point the exp needed to go up a level in 2nd edition reaches a cap (can't remember what that is exactly and I'm not diggin out the books to find out so there :-P). This is all coming off the top of my head so it might not be completely accurate ... But 2nd edition came out in 1989. Eilastraee was introduced in a 2e sourcebook, Drow of the Underdark which came out a few years later. So the character couldn't have been played for 20 years. It would've been 10 at most. Also, characters levelled up a lot more slowly in 1st and 2nd editions. It took a lot more experience to go up in level and you got a lot less per encounter. A party of 4 1st level 3rd edition characters would get 75 experience each for beating 4 goblins and would advance to 2nd level at 1000 XP. 4 1st level 2nd edition characters would get about 50 experience TOTAL or about 13 each. And the advancement would depend on the class, but the rogue or bard (the quickest to advance) would go up in level at 1250 xp. Meanwhile, the wizard wouldn't advance until 2500 xp (or 3rd level for the rogue). You could get bonus XP based on your class, but it generally catered to the low level rogue. Experience point requirements did level out, but it was in the neighborhood of 200,000 per level or more. By comparison, the 3rd edition characters don't need 200,000 experience points to level up until 200th level, well after the breaking point of even epic rules. Given the slower advancement rates (compounded by the increased experience required to surpass demihuman limits) and lower experience gained, it might be possible to get to 150th level in 10 years, but it would require gaming around the clock for that entire time or some very generous "story awards".
eRaz0r 06-21-04, 07:53 PM	I don't think the plausibility of the character is really relevant. I've played in 2nd Ed games where character advancement was stupidly quick, and others where it was glacially slow. I've played in games where the house rules allowed almost anything, and others where you started as a naked 1st level fighter armed with a banana (if you were lucky, you might find a pointed stick before 3rd level) The point is - the character is overpowered. It also doesn't belong in the game if the other players don't want it in there, despite its' "authenticity". I mean - this isn't an antique shop. We're not stripping off layers of a painting to reveal the Old Master beneath. It's a game, and how a character came about, legitimately or not, is nothing more than a question of the way this guy plays the game. So the fact that this character may actually have been played from 1st level until its present state reveals a great deal about the player. Either a) he's lying and this is an abomination put together in a couple of hours and not legitimate. or b) he really did play this character from 1st level : which tells me a lot about the kinds of games he's played in. Namely, that they promote power over substance. I'm guessing that he hasn't ever given a thought to the inner workings of the game at all, and possibly doesn't understand people much either. If he's really played this game for 20 years, I'd have hoped he would have more of a clue about people by now. They don't want to be vehicles for your latest ego trip. This character, if authentic, should have remained on the shelf as a reminder of those good old days when you were a teenager and the fact the system was a mess didn't bother you. Dragging it, kicking and screaming, into a 3rd edition game (without thought of actually updating it, giving it feats or pulling into line with the new rules) isn't the sign of someone who actually cares for your game. I read back on this and think, maybe I've come across too harshly. I'm certainly leaping to a lot of conclusions based on someone elses post. But C'est La vie. I don't wish to offend, but this is where my guess work takes me.
Ithilorien 06-21-04, 08:32 PM	Edit: oops, I'm a bit late for this one, so I'll just say: :mymy:
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-21-04, 11:45 PM	DracoPixie, I did bring this character's profile here to get the thoughts on others who do play the game. It is much better to get the opinions of a large variety of people who do play the game, than to let sit and converse it amongst those who do not play the game, or claim to. It is quite obvious by the posts, should you have read then, that these individuals here do not solely have knowledge in 3rd ed, but 1st and 2nd as well. Not to mention, likely numerous other avenues of the DnD games. I ask you though, do not bring the fight here, where each individual is freely giving their opinions, rather, take it to one of the bash boards of MSN, and allow for here to remain maturely guided with opinions of each person. I did so ask for their opinions on this character, and they have each contributed graciously. For all that, I am thankful. I have been enlightened on few aspects that I had not been familiar with before, as well as had a few others confirmed. I think one should take this merely as informative, and not cause a hassle. So, no, my bubble has been far from busted. However, strengthened. PS, no reply is too late. I do check the threads I have created and asked questions in on a regular basis. All information is helpful, and very much appreciated.
Nick Soapdish 06-22-04, 12:53 AM	You might want to check the Out of Print board. It says it's for Campaign Settings, but since those are generally for earlier incarnations of D&D (if not always), it'll have players more familiar with 2e rules.
Hathorym 06-22-04, 02:27 AM	I think I stubbed my toe on a speed bump called that character. 143 levels is just plain silly... and not like "stick out your tongue and make a funny face" silly... no, I mean the Nickolodeon green sliming of Laa-Laa the Teletubby who is asking Oscar the Grouch out for a date" sort of silly.
DracoPixie 06-22-04, 10:19 AM	Okay perhaps I should state quite simply that this character is NOT in current use, except as an online character (where stats are more or less unimportant anyway). Again I will point out that this character is not a third edition character and has never been played or attempted to be played in a third edition game. Kyra you were indeed wrong to bring this here because although it is a non-biased forum, it is a 3rd edition forum and unless you have been misreading most of the problems that people have had with it have been based around 3rd edition rules (even though it has been quite clearly stated that this character is in no way linked to third edition). To address so other problems that I forgot about..... The demi human level cap.... does not exist in our games, it has been house ruled out. We also allow any race to play any combination of classes (whitin reason). I can't see why an elf can't reach 20th level and I don't see why they can't learn a wide range of skills (they live for a very long time after all)... this does make humans less useful but people still play them and we still make them fun for our games. The Elistraee priest class was not added when the character was made, rather it was somthing that was added in second edition after the character had been around for awhile.... and to say someone can be a priest of a "insert god's name here" just because it "says so in the rules" is bad storytelling. About the sunblades, I could be wrong here but in drow of the underdark it says that PC drow lose all magical innate drow abilites and thier weakness to sunlight after spending a long period of time on the surface world. There is nothing wrong with a character at this level, you can still run adventures with tough encounters and interesting plots.... you just have to use you imagination and have a good time (and yes he looks like a powergamer, but just because he doesn't like to get rid of his favorite character doesnt make him one... and at that level you need some very powerful magic to survive (hence the magic items)... thats called a nessesity, not powergaming) If anyone has any more questions about this character I would be happy to explain it for you...
Hathorym 06-22-04, 10:25 AM	I don't care if it's a 1st edition character. It's silly.
Astanphaeus 06-22-04, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Okay perhaps I should state quite simply that this character is NOT in current use, except as an online character (where stats are more or less unimportant anyway). Then why bring them up? The Elistraee priest class was not added when the character was made, rather it was somthing that was added in second edition after the character had been around for awhile.... and to say someone can be a priest of a "insert god's name here" just because it "says so in the rules" is bad storytelling. No. Allowing such a character without a good explanation for why he's running counter to the setting's background and the established material for the god... that's bad storytelling. No such explanation has been provided in the character's "background" (I use that word loosely). and yes he looks like a powergamer, but just because he doesn't like to get rid of his favorite character doesnt make him one... No, wanting to play a character built like that makes him one. I think that's what most of us are saying. That he's a "favorite character" really isn't relevant. What's relevant is that he's 52nd frickin' level. And, as an aside, "archmage" is a title, not a class. Were 2nd edition fighters suddenly referred to as "9th level lords" when they gained the title level? No. He's a magic-user or a mage. This is, under the 2nd edition system, a 52nd (effective) level character. It is gross by any standard. The Avatars of Gods didn't have levels like that in 2nd edition. This guy could kick Tempus' butt (a Greater God of War). Hell, he's probably bigger than the goddess he worships! "Tough encounters and interesting plots"? Please do give an example of what would constitute a series of "tough encounters" for this character and a party of (presumably) similarly leveled beings. I'm dying to see it. There's only so many pantheons you can annihilate before it gets boring. And the items... no, I'm not even going to go there. This character is, in a word: absurd. Sorry. ~ A.
Ithilorien 06-22-04, 11:47 AM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus This character is, in a word: absurd. Exactly. Like I said: :mymy:
Kyra_Tigersclaw 06-22-04, 12:19 PM	DracoPixie, Is it really necessary to begin arguement here? Does it help to fight for the validity of a character that so far everyone has dubbed absurd? Save for those who suggest that the character be made to face all the gods at once, or even to submerge it in hot liquid magma as the begining of the quest. As was illustrated by Firebald in contribution 14 in this link: http://www.d20forge.com/forum/view_topic.html?t=805 Where others of a seperate Forum were asked to contribute their views. We did not want to rely on one sole source in the case that merely there were like minds here, so we took it to another forum as well. Perhaps I did place this thread in the wrong place, however, the topics most fit so I placed it where I thought it would fit, making sure to say that Sastracka did claim 1st and 2nd Ed.'s. Therefore, it clearly did ask that that was kept in mind, and if you read thoroughly, you would see that. Considering that the character withdrew himself, the point of arguement is moot, however, I find that the remaining of this thread is more informative for the do's and don'ts. Though, statistical numbers in most online rp's don't matter for much, it does show proof of a character someone does try to say is legit, especially when claiming DnD 1st-2nd Ed. What was more so in my interest however, was the Lvl in which he claimed to be, as well as his actual bio, abilities, feats, "protective" spells, the contigency spells, weapons, etc. Not to mention the fact that he claims as well to possess a Dragon Orb from DragonLance, and if I remember correct, a dragonlance as well, though, the dragon lance I have no objection to really, considering the books SL. Save for the fact that you must be of good alignment and origin to weild such a thing. That is another question that I had forgotten to ask. The dragonlances specify (to my knowledge) that you must be of good alignment to weild it. However, some characters, such as drow for instances, are born of an evil breed, though some have choosen to walk the path of light. Would their birth affect them so when it pertains to such artifacts as a dragonlance or any other?
DracoPixie 06-22-04, 03:59 PM	Did I say that he just picked up a rule book and decided to be a preist of Elistraee just because he thought it would be neat? I did not tell you how it was done because I did not think it nessesary. I am not supprised that it was not included in his background, if everything that makes him who he is was in his background in would be like 10 pages long. There is nothing wrong with changing the rules under certain circumstances and doing so can make for a great story.... You have to remember he has been fighting the drow and working against Lolth since early dnd. By the time Elistraee was introduced he was already quite powerful and had been her arch nemesis for an age.... you think she would not accept someone so devoted to the same goals into her faith just because he wasnt a chick? please. An example of a storyline eh? How about stealing a bunch of powerful githzerai silver swords and using them to trick the gith into attacking the drow, meanwhile having the lords of the nine out for your blood because of previous adventures and a bunch of evil gods ****** at you for being a thorn in thier sides for so long.... so you have the gith, demon lords, drow, and a bunch of evils gods baying for blood and bone and you think that isn't challenging enough for a level 52 odd character?.... remember... it's more like level 52, stop thinking of it as level 140 odd (second editon remember). And having been adventureing for 20 years with this character you think he wouldn't have a neat pile of goodies? hell I've seen level 3 characters with some neat stuff.... and what the hell is wrong with him having an artifact or two? A dragon orb is no big deal, its not like he is running around with the hand and eye of vecana, kas's sword, book of vile darkness ect. ect. ect..... (besides its not uncommon for a party of level 20 to find an artifact eventually). About alignment for items... the items wouldn't give a hoot what your race is like there are always exceptions (look at drizzt for example) all it cares about is your deeds... unlike some people that exist in the setting items arn't racist (though I could understand villagers not wanting to hang with him heh). Kyra I did not come here to argue I came to point out that just because he is level 52 odd doesn't make him a bad character or player, just because he has been adventuring for a long time and has a pile of neat treasure doesnt make him a powergamer. (hell if he were a powergamer then he would be a god, there are 1st and I think 2nd edition rules for becomming a god and he meets all of the requirments... but did he? nope.... because his character wouldn't do it, does that sound like a powergamer to you?)
Nick Soapdish 06-22-04, 04:54 PM	Him being a priest of Elistaee isn't the surprising part. I'm more surprised that she isn't a cleric of him. ;)
DracoPixie 06-22-04, 04:58 PM	So thats where gods get thier divine powers from! :D
Astanphaeus 06-22-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Did I say that he just picked up a rule book and decided to be a preist of Elistraee just because he thought it would be neat? I did not tell you how it was done because I did not think it nessesary. I am not supprised that it was not included in his background, if everything that makes him who he is was in his background in would be like 10 pages long. Didn't ask for everything... just the relevant part that justifed the departure from the material (not to mention the rules, as adding a class is not an option for demihumans in 2nd ed). Under 2nd edition, the assumption would be that he began triple-classed. There is nothing wrong with changing the rules under certain circumstances Didn't say there was. Non-issue. An example of a storyline eh? How about stealing a bunch of powerful githzerai silver swords and using them to trick the gith into attacking the drow, meanwhile having the lords of the nine out for your blood because of previous adventures and a bunch of evil gods ****** at you for being a thorn in thier sides for so long.... so you have the gith, demon lords, drow, and a bunch of evils gods baying for blood and bone and you think that isn't challenging enough for a level 52 odd character? Probably not, no. For a group of like-leveled characters, definitely not. ... remember... it's more like level 52, stop thinking of it as level 140 odd (second editon remember). Yeah, thanks, I'm already well aware it's a 2nd edition character, as evidenced by every post I've made on this thread. And having been adventureing for 20 years with this character you think he wouldn't have a neat pile of goodies? hell I've seen level 3 characters with some neat stuff.... and what the hell is wrong with him having an artifact or two? This speaks for itself, I think. Kyra I did not come here to argue I came to point out that just because he is level 52 odd doesn't make him a bad character or player That is, at the very least, debatable. Sorry. just because he has been adventuring for a long time and has a pile of neat treasure doesnt make him a powergamer. No, wanting to play a 52nd level character with the items he has makes him a powergamer. (hell if he were a powergamer then he would be a god, there are 1st and I think 2nd edition rules for becomming a god and he meets all of the requirments... but did he? nope.... because his character wouldn't do it, does that sound like a powergamer to you?) You've got to be kidding. I'm back to thinking this is all a joke. ~ A.
Hathorym 06-22-04, 06:46 PM	LOL, defending this character as anything other than munchkinism is funny too. Being defensive about having to defend this character is even more hillarious. Yeah... there's a bridge involved somewhere here, I'm sure of it.
Astanphaeus 06-22-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Hathorym LOL, defending this character as anything other than munchkinism is funny too. Being defensive about having to defend this character is even more hillarious. Yeah... there's a bridge involved somewhere here, I'm sure of it. We've been punk'd! ~ A.
DracoPixie 06-22-04, 07:40 PM	Having most of the gith, drow, demon lords, and a mess load of evil gods after your ass isn't challenging for a 52nd level character?........ riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...... sure it isn't :rolleyes: considering in most adventures the bad guys are atleast the same level and usually tougher than the good guys.... "No, wanting to play a 52nd level character with the items he has makes him a powergamer." (sorry don't know how to do the quote thing) As mentioned earlier, he no longer plays this character and hasn't for some time, most character's he plays are less than 10th level. What about this character is powergaming? I see nothing wrong with it, he has a bunch of magic items as you would expect for a character of epic levels and two artifacts (both of which he got from running through the DragonLance setting).... are you saying that all players with epic characters are powergamers?
Nick Soapdish 06-22-04, 07:58 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Another important fact is that the experiance to gain that many levels is do-able, I've seen pure 3rd edition characters played for only a couple a years get upto level 30+ so to say that a character that has been around for 20 odd years (table top and later online rp) could get to that level... not to mention that after a certain point the exp needed to go up a level in 2nd edition reaches a cap (can't remember what that is exactly and I'm not diggin out the books to find out so there :-P). By the way, you're comparing apples and oranges here. First, as earlier noted, 3rd edition characters usually get more experience per encounter. Not more experience as compared to the amount needed to level up. Just flat out more experience. (There are a few exceptions since some monsters, usually demons, gave tremendous amounts of experience compared to other foes of equal strength.) Second, characters in 3rd edition require less experience to level up. A 30th level character requires 465,000 xp in 3rd edition, which would require an average campaign that played every week about 18 months. That amount of experience would make this particular multi-class mix a fighter8/mage9/cleric8. Based on the campaigns I DMed and played in in 1st and 2nd edition, that'd probably take about 2 years of steady play. Less if you are still in school and don't need to get jobs over the summer (which I didn't for a few blissful years). To get to fighter 45 alone would require 9,250,000 xp. Mage (archmage was a 1st edition title) 50 would require 15 million experience points. Cleric 47 is a comparatively cheap 8,775,000 xp. If you were thinking that the campaign that got from 1-30 in under 2 years was giving out experience points like candy, this particular character was getting experience points 10 times as fast if it managed to gain all of those levels in just 20 years.
Astanphaeus 06-22-04, 08:51 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie considering in most adventures the bad guys are atleast the same level and usually tougher than the good guys... And therein lies the problem. If you don't understand how that's completely broken, there's nothing I can do for you other than to recommend that you read page 20 of the 2nd edition DMG. Good luck, happy trails. As mentioned earlier, he no longer plays this character and hasn't for some time, most character's he plays are less than 10th level. Okay, so you're-- I mean, your friend... is not normally a power gamer. You-- I mean he... was just trying to be a power gamer in this instance. Got it. What about this character is powergaming? 52nd level in 2nd edition for starters. I see nothing wrong with it, Excellent. Run a game for him. Have fun. I'll keep an eye out for the movie. he has a bunch of magic items as you would expect for a character of epic levels and two artifacts (both of which he got from running through the DragonLance setting)... 1. This is not epic level. There was no Epic system in 2nd edition. Don't forget, he's a 2nd level character!! You could go over 20 in extreme circumstances (provided such optional rules were adopted). Going over 30 was not at all recommended. 40 is something you only saw gods have. Now, you've berated the point that this is a 2nd level character. Don't now abandon that because it inconveniences your argument. The difference in power scale between 2nd edition and 3rd is considerable. Little to nothing in the 2nd edition system was designed to accommodate 20+ level PCs, nevermind 50th level PCs. 2. Two Artifacts. 'Nuff said. are you saying that all players with epic characters are powergamers? No, I'm saying a player who wants to play a 2nd edition 52nd level character with that array of items is a power gamer. ~ A.
DracoPixie 06-23-04, 07:52 AM	Lets set a few things straight. I have looked over most people’s posts including the actual profile in question. I’ve been gaming for well over a decade. I have played 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition. What I see here is an old character that began in first, migrated to 2nd and is CLEARLY not a 3rd edition character. Fact: Adventuring Drow has no level limits in 2nd edition as stated in the supplement 'Drow of the Underdark' The first and 2nd edition player’s handbook both do not state there is a level limit to any class. Humans have no limits to what level they can attain. If an official published games supplement states Drow have no level limits and if the DM that ran games for this character adopts that rule then how is it cheated? The character is clearly multi classed. And from the history posted elsewhere which I have looked into, the character is also duel classed as cleric. The background is long and involved and smacks to me that the character was played over a long period of time. Kaya left a hell of a lot of things out when she asked for your opinions. It is not a 3rd edition character nor is it an attempt at converting from 2nd to 3rd edition. So do not think of it as a 140th odd character. That is a 3rd edition term and makes a big difference when you try and look at a 2nd ed character with 3rd edition views. She left out the character's history. It explains a lot, it also gives an overview of several campaigns the player has been involved in. When faced with such high adventure, it is no wonder the character is the level it is. On exceeding the gods? Does he? The answer is yes and no. He exceeds the stats given for a god’s avatar in 2nd edition; in fact, he blows them out the water. Does he exceed the gods themselves? No he does not. The reason? It clearly states at the beginning of the 2nd edition legends and lore that the gods are so vast, so powerful that stats cannot be made for them. They have innate divine abilities that literally determine whether a mortal lives or dies. A god merely think " Die" and no matter what your level, power, etc, you die, its divine Will and its a dm's tool for dealing with uppity players who think they can slay gods on their own turf. So those of you that stated this character exceeded the very gods themselves is very far from the actual truth. Should the character be shelved? I think so. Any character beyond 25th should really be shelved. I can understand the player's nostalgia but seriously. Only characters of equal level pose a threat. Or gods etc. Maybe you should use the character as an npc. MSN RP Its mostly rp wannabe's who don't really know what they are doing. You can go into a number of comms and find characters that profess to be vampire/demon/werewolf /etc/etc with so many powers and abilities it makes the character we are discussing seem like a lil puppy. Maybe that could be the reason why he brought such a powerful character to msn rp in the first place. Granted, there are some good comms out there that do really try. They have this saying called 'free form’ and some of the decent role players try to follow table top game rules such as A D & D to give their 'free form' some structure. At the end of the day, does it really matter if he professes to be 1 millionth level? Not in msn rp it doesn't from my experience. It’s a mix of different styles and ideas. If the player who owns this character professes to have played for as long as you said, Kaya, then he should know about play balance and all that other stuff pertaining to running a game. I think the introduction of the foes to the storyline you described probably prompted him to include this character. His stats, at first glance seem unbelievable yet in the 2nd edition dmg, it states that a wish spell can raise an attribute by one tenth of a point, meaning you can raise a stat by one point after 10 wish spells. Seems a bit much doesn't it But an 18th level spell caster can cast 1 wish spell a day, after 10 days he can raise one attribute. But the drawback is you age and you have to word it perfectly otherwise 'fate' will knock you for 6. Did this player find a way to bring all of these conditions together? If he did and his dm allowed it then the character should stand. I don't believe anywhere in any of the books does it state that a mortal has a level limit. For instance, Darksun characters can exceed 20th level very easily and if you check out the Necromancers hand book, you will notice it gives spells and level advancement to 30th level, with a small note indicating how many xp you need to advance to the next level FROM 30th Personally, I do not like high-powered games; it takes much of the fun out of role-playing when you have a character that can do most things. I enjoy knowing that if I roll rubbish on my next attack, the goblin I'm facing is going to kill me. It’s all part of the fun, its all part of building up a character. I think my highest-level character is around 15th or so. I got bored with him after that. The point is there are those of us gamers out there who do enjoy building up their characters to as high as the dm will allow them to go. Such power draws the attention of divine beings and so the introduction to high-powered gaming is made. Epic games etc. Planescape addressed this problem. Officially, the game allowed you to play godlings and such, but what if a creative DM, used such a vehicle to allow his players to take their built up, high powered characters there? So before, any of you condemn this creation, you need to think seriously about what you are saying. Nothing is black and white as kaya is trying to make out. The books of A D & D are mostly GUIDE LINES supported by supplements, class and race guides etc that not everyone can be fully versed in and open to interpretation. 2nd edition has vastly different game mechanics than 3rd Ed does and you have to take these differences into consideration. The character is way, way too powerful to be included in any normal game, but then again, MSN RP is not 'normal rp’ certainly not by tabletop standards. Most of the characters that are portrayed there would be laughed off the gaming table, same as this one if someone ever tried to play them at tabletop.
Astanphaeus 06-23-04, 09:45 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Lets set a few things straight. Oh please, lets. What I see here is an old character that began in first, migrated to 2nd and is CLEARLY not a 3rd edition character. Yeah, many of us know that. You don't have to keep repeating it. Seriously. As for the alleged migration, many are skeptical and have good reason to be. Fact: Adventuring Drow has no level limits in 2nd edition as stated in the supplement 'Drow of the Underdark' Sorry, no. That only applies without stipulation to the wizard class. Priest advancement is a matter for the gods, who "typically end such advancement by destruction or elevation to demi-god servant status around 22nd level." Page 9, "Drow of the Underdark". Read the whole section, not just selected quotes. The first and 2nd edition player’s handbook both do not state there is a level limit to any class. Again, please read page 20 of the 2nd edition DMG. If an official published games supplement states Drow have no level limits and if the DM that ran games for this character adopts that rule then how is it cheated? No published supplement that I'm aware of states anything of the sort. In any event, I wouldn't call it cheating, and I haven't called it cheating. I'd simply call it inane. And from the history posted elsewhere which I have looked into, the character is also duel classed as cleric. Which, by the RAW, is not an option for demihumans. The background is long and involved and smacks to me that the character was played over a long period of time. While I have my doubts, it's not really relevant whether the character has been played for 20 years or not. It's still a 52nd level character. It is not a 3rd edition character nor is it an attempt at converting from 2nd to 3rd edition. Yeah, y'know, you don't have to keep saying that. She left out the character's history. It explains a lot, it also gives an overview of several campaigns the player has been involved in. Again, doesn't matter. It's a 52nd level character. He exceeds the stats given for a god’s avatar in 2nd edition; in fact, he blows them out the water. Thanks, but I already mentioned this. Does he exceed the gods themselves? No he does not. The reason? It clearly states at the beginning of the 2nd edition legends and lore that the gods are so vast, so powerful that stats cannot be made for them. Right, so when talking about levels and stats, they have no bearing on the discussion. The point is, if any god sent a manifestation after him -- which should be the biggest thing you can deal with in the universe, because, as you've stated, their power is vast -- he can smash it. There's really no place else to go from there, unless you want to make the entire universe as absurd as the character. If you want to go there, good luck. Send me a postcard... that is, if you have the time, what with all the 50+ level NPC creation you'll be doing. So those of you that stated this character exceeded the very gods themselves is very far from the actual truth. He exceeds all gods in their applicable forms. You may note that I specifically mentioned avatars of gods a few posts ago. From this point forth, consider "god" and "avatar" interchangeable. "GOd" is being used only in its applicable context. Should the character be shelved? Yes. It's long overdue. I think so. Glad you agree. So I guess you're not going to be running that game for him, huh? So before, any of you condemn this creation, you need to think seriously about what you are saying. And here we have the sentence that motivated my response. You've been posting on this thread apparently with the arrogant assumption that you're going to set us all straight, and "blow outta the water" all of our "stupid assumptions and remarks". Well, here's the problem. You haven't done any of that. In fact, you've been wrong on a handful of points. You've jumped to conclusions and you've repeatedly tried to put words into people's mouthes that didn't belong there. You've belabored the same points over and over, when they've been addressed long ago... several times. So, here's some counter advice: perhaps you should stop and seriously think about what you're saying, and even maybe give some thought about who you might be addressing. Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about what has and has not been seriously considered by the participants in this thread... because maybe... just maybe... some of us actually know what we're talking about. Mmmkay? For instance, Darksun characters can exceed 20th level very easily Dark Sun is a high-powered campaign setting with its own set of special rules to accommodate that power level. 2nd edition itself is not designed for it. This can be easily determined by reading the DMG, where it states as much. and if you check out the Necromancers hand book, you will notice it gives spells and level advancement to 30th level And if you continue to check it, you'll note that the progression is there for the purpose of facilitating high level NPC creation, specifically icky, scary villains. Finally, for the record, I'm well acquainted with "freeform" RP venues. In such situations there was a word for a character like this: twink... which could apply to the player as well. It was considered a given that, in such an "interactive novel" atmosphere, you would create a reasonable character. "Twink" characters were simply ignored as a matter of course. This character is not reasonable... by any standard. Any environment in which he'd fit right in would be equally whacko. But, hey, if that's what flicks your switch... more power to ya. Have fun. But don't tell me I can't label this character a study in absurdity, regardless of context. I have considered the medium, the rules set, the lack of adherence to said rules set, and the player's investment in the character... It's still full goose bozo ridiculous. And that's my last post on the matter. ~ A.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 10:02 AM	1) Well, if you want to get really technical about it, there was nothing in 2nd edition that really supported classes above 40th level for one. 2) Two, in 2nd edition, your level spread is completely inaccurate. To be a 45th level Warrior requires 9,250,000 experience. Since you're using 2nd edition, that should be roughly the same experience the othe classes possess. So, assuming by archmage you mean wizard (as there was no archmage class in 2nd edition) your wizard should actually be only 34th level, and your Specialty Priest of Ellistraee should only be 27th level because of the fact that he's a SPECIALTY PRIEST, which used the more difficult of the two Priest Experience Levels. So, your multiclass is impossible by 2nd edition rules. 3) Since the above is correct, according to 2nd edition rules, I'll be nice and allow you to use the 45 Fighter/34 Wizard/27 Priest spread - let's talk about your hit points. The Maximum Hitpoints that character could possible have, assuming you could somehow explain that constitution score is: 135 ((Fighter 252 + Wizard 68 + Priest 86 ) divided by 3). So that doesn't track according to 2nd edition rules. All three of those things are MECHANICAL errors with the character. I don't give a rat's booty WHAT the story is with the character, according to 2nd level rules, what you described is impossible based on the rules of the game. I call bullarky, and have a nice day.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie [B]Lets set a few things straight. I have looked over most people’s posts including the actual profile in question. I’ve been gaming for well over a decade. I have played 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition. What I see here is an old character that began in first, migrated to 2nd and is CLEARLY not a 3rd edition character.Not possible. Drow were not a PC race in 1st edition.Fact:Adventuring Drow has no level limits in 2nd edition as stated in the supplement 'Drow of the Underdark'True 'nuff.. for some ridiculous reason.The first and 2nd edition player’s handbook both do not state there is a level limit to any class.No, but the DMG did.Humans have no limits to what level they can attain. If an official published games supplement states Drow have no level limits and if the DM that ran games for this character adopts that rule then how is it cheated?Conceeding this point simply because of drow of the underdarkThe character is clearly multi classed. And from the history posted elsewhere which I have looked into, the character is also duel classed as cleric. The background is long and involved and smacks to me that the character was played over a long period of time.1. Even if the character were multi-class fighter/wizard, the level spread is impossible. 2. No character can be both multi-class and dual class and only humans could dual class ever. 3. If the Priest portion WAS in fact a dual-class, the character would have to obtain one level higher than his highest class in order to use either the fighter or wizard portions of his character, albeit unless willing to suffer XP penalties (sic)Kaya left a hell of a lot of things out when she asked for your opinions.Yeah, like the rules.So before, any of you condemn this creation, you need to think seriously about what you are saying. Nothing is black and white as kaya is trying to make out. The books of A D & D are mostly GUIDE LINES supported by supplements, class and race guides etc that not everyone can be fully versed in and open to interpretation. 2nd edition has vastly different game mechanics than 3rd Ed does and you have to take these differences into consideration.But not so vastly different as to completely ignore the rules... I don't care how far you think you can bend the rules (or guidelines), the character is impossible.
Nick Soapdish 06-23-04, 10:40 AM	Well, the original post objected to the character, presumably because it bent or broke the rules. I think it's safe to say that it does that. The level limits for demihumans are in the DMG (and were a bit of an unpleasant surprise when our group was just starting out - the PH had come out a couple months before and we were figuring that they had been dropped). I don't have Drow of Underdark though so I don't know if they re-wrote the rules for drow. Regarding the level of the character ... I don't really think it makes a difference whether it's 52nd or 140th level. They're both absurd, especially in 2nd edition. I mean, what does he get every level? 1 HP, THACO goes down 1, and a couple more spells? Once you get to about 15th level fighter, further levels just don't mean anything. The same is true for cleric and mage although it's a few levels higher (mid-20s) in their case. And in one respect, it really is about a 140th level character. After about 10th level in each class, it takes the same amount of experience to gain each level. So it's just about as expensive to gain 23rd level in cleric as it was to gain 22nd in fighter. So for the amount of experience that he has, he could be a 140th level character (depending on the class - maybe only about 120th level mage, for instance). Also, the character is playing awfully fast and loose with the 2nd (or 1st) edition rules. Either you can multi-class (if you're demihuman) or you can dual-class (if you're human). Not both. And if he dual-classed into cleric after gaining fighter45/mage50, he can't use any of his abilities from his other classes (except for hit points) or else he doesn't get any experience (and thus doesn't level up) until he surpasses the previous level (presumably 50). The hit points are a bit dubious also. Assuming that his DM allowed him to keep fractions of hit points while levelling up (as I did, but you were supposed to round down for multi-class characters), a 23 Constitition effected your hit points retroactively and gives 6 bonus hit points a level (don't remember for 2nd edition), and that he rolled maximum for each level, he should have 209 hit points. Taking the max hit points from the best class (fighter in most cases) would have netted him only 263 hit points by that level. If a 23 Constititon gets you 8 bonus hit points a level, add 20 to that total. He's still a bit short. If the player is having fun with this character, that's fine. He and his gaming group can create whatever rules that they want and play by them. But to introduce him into another game and say that he's by the books is laughable.
Astanphaeus 06-23-04, 10:46 AM	Okay, one more... ;) Hathorym, you dug far more deeply into the nuts and bolts than I would've... good catches on the mechanics issues. However, I just want to point out again: drow were not given unlimited level advancement in Drow of the Underdark. That was for adventuring wizards only. Priests also theoretically had unlimited advancement (dependent on the will of their god), but according to the material, they would not advance much beyond 22nd level, as they'd be destroyed or elevated to the status of demigod or proxy around that time. Fighters, rogues, or anything else: normal restrictions, as per elves. Wizards that were homebodies: 17th - 19th level. ~ A.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 10:46 AM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish The hit points are a bit dubious also. Assuming that his DM allowed him to keep fractions of hit points while levelling up (as I did, but you were supposed to round down for multi-class characters), a 23 Constitition effected your hit points retroactively and gives 6 bonus hit points a level (don't remember for 2nd edition), and that he rolled maximum for each level, he should have 209 hit points. Taking the max hit points from the best class (fighter in most cases) would have netted him only 263 hit points by that level. If a 23 Constititon gets you 8 bonus hit points a level, add 20 to that total. He's still a bit short. Don't forget, bonus hitpoints from constitution is no longer applied to a fighter beyond level 9... he only receives 3 hitpoints per level after that. So, you go even lower.But to introduce him into another game and say that he's by the books is laughable. Exactly.
Nick Soapdish 06-23-04, 11:02 AM	Originally posted by Hathorym Don't forget, bonus hitpoints from constitution is no longer applied to a fighter beyond level 9... he only receives 3 hitpoints per level after that. So, you go even lower. I did that, but the most favorable version allows him to get a d4+6 for mage10. I'm not quite sure why we've got such disparate totals. D'oh! I was letting him get his full Con bonus for all his classes, not just the fighter. He still should be able to get 6 hit points for level 10 (if you let him pick the best hit point option for each class and assume he rolls max again), but it knocks the best case scenario down to 257. And I've still got his regular max as 173 (rounding up), but I'm going by the levels given, not allowable levels.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish I did that, but the most favorable version allows him to get a d4+6 for mage10. I'm not quite sure why we've got such disparate totals. D'oh! I was letting him get his full Con bonus for all his classes, not just the fighter. He still should be able to get 6 hit points for level 10 (if you let him pick the best hit point option for each class and assume he rolls max again), but it knocks the best case scenario down to 257. And I've still got his regular max as 173 (rounding up), but I'm going by the levels given, not allowable levels. Don't forget that the +6 from the Con only applies to his Fighter Class. The maximum con bonus he can get for wizard and priest is +2 per level. :) Of course, you then have to divide that by 3.
Nick Soapdish 06-23-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Hathorym Don't forget that the +6 from the Con only applies to his Fighter Class. The maximum con bonus he can get for wizard and priest is +2 per level. :) Of course, you then have to divide that by 3. I did that for the 173. But I'm still going by the original levels and I think you gimped him. A 34th level mage with max hit points would actually have 84 (10*(4+2)+24). The 27th level specialty priest would have 126 (9*(8+2)+36).
DracoPixie 06-23-04, 11:39 AM	I completely agree with your assesment of the rule breaking in the characters make-up. There were certain things that you mention that I did not know about (The max hp thing, the multi-duel class thing and a couple of others) I'm not sure how those were done but I assume the DM for some strange reason allowed it... you would have to ask the player. I already explained why he was able to multi-class and duel-class (though as I said before I'm not sure why he was able to do both) The entire point that I'm trying to get across is that just because a character is a high level it doesn't make the player a powergamer, as previously mentioned after a certain point in the levels you don't really get much more to work with. Other than hp and number of spells a day this character isn't much different from the same character at a much lower level. If he were a powergamer wouldn't he have moved the character over to 3rd edition? I'm not big on all of the rules for 2nd edition so I don't know alot about all of this stuff, mostly this is stuff that I've asked the other player about and he has explained to me. So I'll ask about the hitpoints and multi-duel-class thing and post his answer (I'm kinnda curious too).
Hathorym 06-23-04, 11:48 AM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish I did that for the 173. But I'm still going by the original levels and I think you gimped him. A 34th level mage with max hit points would actually have 84 (10*(4+2)+24). The 27th level specialty priest would have 126 (9*(8+2)+36). Ahh cool Nick... at least we just reminded ourselves why 2nd edition sucked so much, LOL.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie I'm not big on all of the rules for 2nd edition so I don't know alot about all of this stuff, mostly this is stuff that I've asked the other player about and he has explained to me. So I'll ask about the hitpoints and multi-duel-class thing and post his answer (I'm kinnda curious too). And BINGO! There we have it. The player is using your ignorance of 2nd edition rules against you. If you need more of a break down, I'm sure Nick and I can help you out :)
Nick Soapdish 06-23-04, 12:05 PM	Sucked isn't a fair way to put it. There are lots of elements that are inelegant in comparison to 3rd edition, but it's still a lot of fun to play (although I'd agree that Skills and Powers sucked). The point that I've been trying to make is not that he's a powergamer. It's that in Kyra's 2nd post (the PS), Kyra states that the player said this character was allowable in 2nd edition. It isn't. There's nothing wrong with house rules, but this is not a "by the books" character.
DracoPixie 06-23-04, 12:55 PM	Fair enough then I'm not argueing that point it just ****** me off that people were calling him a powergamer and making stupid comments about him that were completely false. House rules did indeed go into this characters creation and as such it is not strictly "by the books" I still don't know how he got his hp that high or why the DM let him duel AND multiclass but thats more of a DM mistake than a mistake by the player (after all everything that the DM says is legal is indeed legal) Also he didn't use my ignorance against me as I have never DM'ed a game of AD&D for him, I suck at DMing and as such try my best to stay away lol (though I'm thinking of DMing a White Wolf game soon.... lets hope it's not a complete failure ~crosses fingers~)
Astanphaeus 06-23-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish (although I'd agree that Skills and Powers sucked). Oh yes. Sucked like a black hole sucking kind of suck. That is to say, heavy on the suckage. ~ A.
eRaz0r 06-23-04, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Fair enough then I'm not argueing that point it just ****** me off that people were calling him a powergamer and making stupid comments about him that were completely false. House rules did indeed go into this characters creation and as such it is not strictly "by the books" I still don't know how he got his hp that high or why the DM let him duel AND multiclass but thats more of a DM mistake than a mistake by the player (after all everything that the DM says is legal is indeed legal) There's a very fine line between a couple of house rules and wanton power gaming. This character doesn't straddle that line. It mounts a Tarrasque and Tramples all over it. Then it gets off and jumps gleefully up and down screaming "TWINK". There are so many little "exceptions" to make this character work that "strictly by the book" doesn't cut it. "Barely read the book" might be a closer description for how this character was made.
DracoPixie 06-24-04, 09:49 AM	Any decent mage of 20th level could make the Terrasque it's *****.... your point?..... just don't get close. And correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the house rules be a DM decision? I doubt the players have the power to control the DM's mind and make him create house rules that the DM didn't think would fit into a game.
DracoPixie 06-24-04, 09:55 AM	And about the comment that said the Drow were not a PC race in first.... If you read the first edition unearthed arcana you might find that you are quite wrong ;)
Twisted Puppy 06-24-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Any decent mage of 20th level could make the Terrasque it's *****.... your point?..... just don't get close. And correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the house rules be a DM decision? I doubt the players have the power to control the DM's mind and make him create house rules that the DM didn't think would fit into a game. Seems a bit presumptive, though, to assume that a character created under one DM's "house rules" would be allowed into another DM's campaign with no questions asked or changes required. Also, the players in the current game have every reason - and right - to object to a character made under another DM's house rules that is allowed into a game, when they did not get the same benefits. Even more so when the DM that house ruled the creation is not available for consultation. If I were the DM in this case, I'd disallow the character - it screams "Greater Munchkin" just too loudly for me to ignore. If someone wants that much power IMC, they will bloody well have to earn it IMC.
Hathorym 06-24-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by DracoPixie And about the comment that said the Drow were not a PC race in first.... If you read the first edition unearthed arcana you might find that you are quite wrong ;) Yes, in the myriad of wrongness that is this character, that would be about the only thing you could bring back and say that *I* was incorrect about. :)
DracoPixie 06-24-04, 10:16 AM	I understand that, though it has been a well established character for a number of years online, so I can see why he didn't say anything because no one has ever mentioned it before. I do understand your point though.
eRaz0r 06-24-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by DracoPixie Any decent mage of 20th level could make the Terrasque it's *****.... your point?..... just don't get close. It's called "a joke". You see, what I did was, I took the common phrase "There's a fine line between ..." and then I used the line metaphor as if it were a real line, and then I imagined what a stupidly powerful character might be able to do : and I thought of how ludicrous it would be for someone to ride the Tarrasque... and then.. Oh, why do I bother ? My father always used to say "if you have to explain your joke, it wasn't funny.... or your audience is a bunch of retards."
DracoPixie 06-25-04, 04:44 AM	The problem that started this thread has been resolved. Things said have been taken into consideration and the typist for the character has made sufficient changes to the character in order to make it more acceptable for online Rp. The character is still portrayed as powerful. In the sense that it is an expert fighter, can cast up to 9th level spells and can cast a good range of clerical spells. The typist for the character knows full well that a character cannot, under normal circumstances be both duel and multi classed, but will keep the clerical class, as it was a pivotal aspect of the character’s history. The DM allowed it for his campaign so it will stand for purposes of online rp. I also know that the owner of the character is an able story teller and DM in his own right. This character of his is very much an exception to his normal style of play and level of play. It was only introduced to a storyline as detailed by Kaya to help combat two third edition style anicent blacks.
Thegreatmonkey 06-25-04, 04:48 AM	I must say one thing (and yes I know flames will come for me)... Skills and Powers rocked! thats right bi*ches! ;) I know it was way to easy to unbalance a character. But there's something to be said for the insane amount of customization that you could do with it. :angel:
Hathorym 06-25-04, 08:53 AM	Why do I get the feeling that this was your character, DracoPixie?
Astanphaeus 06-25-04, 09:32 AM	Originally posted by Thegreatmonkey I must say one thing (and yes I know flames will come for me)... Skills and Powers rocked! Burn, monkey... BURN!! ~ A.
Hathorym 06-25-04, 10:09 AM	Originally posted by Thegreatmonkey Skills and Powers rocked! Thus proving the line, "There's a sucker born every minute." :) Don't worry... I was born too. I just got over it. Birth, I mean... dreadfully annoying experience really.