Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fuzzly 06-29-07, 08:18 AM	Hello! I've always wanted to get into a D&D game, but at my college they are always, always full. Luckily, one guy decided to start a game for newbies like me (I am aware of the basics, and I've played lots of RPGs, but not D&D). The setting is really cool, and the GM makes every session really fun. We started toward the end of the school year, and ended with summer. For me, summer is almost over, so I thought I'd ask some questions. Here is some info on the game: There are 4 players (maybe 5, one dropped out due to school work. I can understand, they really pile it on at the end). There are two newbies, and two more experienced players. We have a cleric, human, played by one of the experienced players (he plays... a lot). We have a human rogue, played by the other experienced player, a dwarven Ranger (planning on leveling in dwarven defender), and me, a human monk. We are all level 4, and my character looks like this (there may be a little difference. I asked the DM to hold onto my sheet, as he is very organized, and I am not.) Tuck-Human Monk Str-12 Dex-16 Con-12 Wis-15 Int-8 Char-8 Feats Dodge (DM just gives this as a +1 to ac, since he's nice.) Mobility (planning on going for spring attack) Stunning Fist Deflect Arrows other monk feats/abilities Skills- Focusing on Spot, Move Silently, Tumble, Balance, Jump, Listen. For the direction of my character's feats/abilities, I was thinking of getting spring attack (moving around the battlefield has proven to be very important). But, other then that, I have no idea. We are using the skills/feats from the Player's Handbook only. We were also told this would be a lower power-level campaign. I dunno what this means exactly, but I guess the DM plays with some people who try to break the game, and he got a little tired of it. I was thinking of getting Weapon Finesse as a feat. This works with unarmed strike, yes? That way, I would only have to focus on Dex/Wis/Con as combat abilities. And since Dex would add to my attack roll, focusing on Dex/Wis would also allow my to increase my AC a lot better. He is currently Lawful Neutral. I'm not sure if I want to take him to LE or LG yet, as I sporadically enjoy both. One day I'll feel especially kind hearted, and help get kittens out of trees, and on another day, I'll except a widow's plea to find the murderer of her husband on one condition. She give me her little finger. I dunno, maybe I could tie this into my char? Any advice is appreciated.
Azezel 06-29-07, 10:31 AM	Hokay - Kudos for giving us so much information. Typically a thread asking for advice is one paragraph long and reveals nothing of the game in question. You've picked some good feats and skills for a Monk - although I'd not have recomended a Monk to a new player myself. Your Low INT and CHA worry me - that character does not seem very interesting to rp, if I'm honest. A character with low inteligence but high Wisdom, such as yours will be rather instinctive. He generally knows what's going on, and how to react, but he doesn't know how he knows. In roleplaying such a character, he should go with his gut instinct, and react quickly without considering all of the ramifications. A character with low Charisma might be quiet and shy, or he may be loud and brash. Possibly he just gets on peoples' nerves for no obvious reason. In any case, with 6 CHA - people just don't like him, it's that simple. For a Monk, maybe he has been cloistered in his monestary since a very young age - he has little or no idea how social interaction works in the wider world. He might say things that offend people without knowing it, or he might not say anything at all - either way, he has dificulty with social situations in the same way that a Strength 6 character has difuculty wrestling. As for alignment, from what you have described, your character is not lawful. He is at best True Neutral. For my part, if I was your DM and your character sometimes chopped fingers off inocent NPC's, you'd be Chaotic Neutral so fast your feet wouldn't touch the floor - and a hair's breadth away from Chaotic Evil.
Fuzzly 06-29-07, 01:29 PM	Hmmm, good points. Now that I think about it, my lowest stats are both 8. That's a two point boost from what I said earlier (will edit). I do tend to play my char as rather quiet, at least when the others have something to say. I'd rather let them do the introductions than me. I do think my Char has a soft spot for children. He always seems to end up in situations where he can help them out. One time he found three little girls being forced to work in a brothel. =( he didn't like that and tore the place up. (Flurry + shurikens=dead pimp). That was until the wolf-thingy showed up and started to destroy me. Luckily my dwarf partner was down the street when all the people ran out of the bar. I am still wondering about weapon finesse. To me it seems great, having practically two combat stats (Dex and Wis for massive AC). I chose Monk because they always seem to have something cool going on. Every level I've gotten something new I believe. I can't wait to try out my Ki strike!
Ikyotojin 06-29-07, 01:41 PM	Ok, here's how we play monks in my games. they are lawful in that they are highly disciplined and dedicated. They are tough to get PO'd, or at least they don't show it till they bust out and start punching someone's head in. They are cause orientated - they have a purpose of some sort. Good monks - seek to help people. Fighting injustice, driving away or destroying evil - you get the idea. Neutral - they are the odd ball monks. Think of the monk teachers from various old movies. They educate people in some way and try to eliminate the chaos of life. Evil - those who are lower in status must obey or be punished. There is a structure to society and those who do not fit in it must be MADE to fit in it. Just some general ideas. Don't have time today to get more detailed.
Fuzzly 06-29-07, 01:48 PM	Thanks Iko, that gives some ideas.
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 09:37 AM	For more on stereotypical monks in D&D, go grab yourself a few episodes of Kug Fu (http://www.kungfu-guide.com/). Kwai Chang Caine definitely covers the "highly disciplined and dedicated . . . tough to get PO'd, or at least they don't show it till they bust out and start punching someone's head in" description. I'd argue that he IS the stereotype the D&D monk is based upon. (I'd say Caine starts out as Lawful Neutral and moves to Lawful Good over the course of the campaign, er, series.) At some point, grab a copy of the TAO TE CHING. On your feat selection: Monks ARE highly mobile, but taking something like Spring Attack may not necessarily make sense. Spring Attack allows only a single attack roll to be made between movement phases: Move-Attack ONCE-Move. The Flurry of Blows class feature requires a Full Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) to use. Generally using Spring Attack is best when coupled with some sort of damage-boosting class feature like Sneak Attack or Skirmish (Skirmish works best in my opinion). Perhaps something to boost your attack rolls would be more in order. A few suggestions: Weapon Finesse applies to all monk weapons except the quarterstaff, including your Unarmed Strike. This boosts your attack bonus from +1 (your 12 STR) to +3 (your 16 DEX). Weapon Focus adds +1 to your attack rolls with the selected weapon. You may choose Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). Various monk weapons grant bonuses to special attacks like trip (kama) and disarm (sai). Check 'em out, along with the Improved feats that go with them, to see if you wish build your character toward those abilities. (You'd likely have to move your DEX to your STR, however.) If you plan to use your unarmed strike most of the time, definitely pick up Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) to boost your unarmed damage a step. (You can't get it until Level 6, when your BAB meets the +4 prerequisite). See discussion here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12913784#post12913784) if your DM has questions regarding your ability to select a "monster" feat. It originally appeared in the Monster Manual, so it is a legal choice for your "Core Only" game. Your 8 INT means skills are going to be painful for you. You'll have only 4 skill points per level instead of a human monk's usual 5. In a nutshell this means you can select 4 skills to keep at maximum ranks. I suggest you consider dropping 2 of the skills you selected. You're wise to focus on skills which take advantage of your best ability scores. Since you're in a party with 2 rogues, take a look at THEIR skills. Odds are both of them can use Move Silently as well or better than you. Likewise, at least one of them is likely to have max ranks in Spot and perhaps Listen as well. If so, drop all three from YOUR list and select something the party may be lacking (Sense Motive comes to mind) or a physical skill like Climb You didn't mention which ability got the +1 increase when you hit Level 4. If it's not already factored into the scores you listed, definitely put it into WIS.
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 09:44 AM	Also, ask your DM if he may consider adding Complete Scoundrel and Complete Adventurer to this list of allowed books. Both are well done and give some love to both rogues and monks. The series of Ascetic feats allows you to freely multiclass your Monk with other classes. You seem to like the concept of a stealthy monk, so Monk/Rogue with the appropriate Ascetic feat allows you some additional options for skills and class features (as noted in my comment on Spring Attack above!) Additionally, skill monkeys like the rogues will appreciate the options in Complete Scoundrel for alternate uses for skills (which frequently fall by the wayside), including the new Skill Tricks - which aren't quite feats, but add some flair to characters. If you're focusing on a mobile character, the Movement skill tricks would probably be worth the loss of ranks in your skill list.
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 10:08 AM	Finally, a few words on alignment: The trick to playing a believable character is to remember that the alignment you choose is NOT a straight jacket for how your character has to behave. It's a suggestion to aid your roleplaying. Don't think, "I'm Lawful Good so I have to do X, Y, and Z." Think instead, "I behave like X, Y, and Z, so I must be Lawful Good." Even though morality in D&D is absolute, organic characters are skill allowed to "break" alignment. Good characters may occasionally perform selfish or evil acts; evil characters can still do good when it suits their whim. It's possible -and even believable - for a Lawful Evil character to have a soft spot for kittens. A few comments based on your post: A Lawful Neutral character may well expect payment for services rendered. The Lawful component of a Monk's alignment denotes personal discipline more than a desire to follow the laws of the land. Being Neutral means you're not necessarily morally obligated to offer help because it's the "right" thing to do. Just payment for services rendered is only fair. A Good character may still ask for payment, but based on their personal philosophy and class this could range from working with the local temple (asked by a paladin or cleric) to simply providing food (martial types always appreciate a full belly), a good night's rest (especially important to arcane casters), a good story or a song (asked by a bard), or whatever else strikes one's fancy (let's face it, a good rogue may ask for any of the previous examples, coin, a worthless trinket, or merely silence regarding his whereabouts!) An Evil character would ask payment as a way to enforce their superiority over the NPC. In your case, demanding the widow's little finger as payment to solve her husband's murder was nothing short of callous. You can't use a severed finger for much of anything - you certainly can't sell it - and odds are unless you take steps to preserve it you're going to throw it away at the earliest opportunity. Some DMs don't allow evil characters in good parties, and some DMs don't allow evil player characters at all. Check with your DM for his thoughts in this matter before deciding to move your Monk's alignment.
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 10:10 AM	I put my +1 skill into my Wis score. Thanks for the advice on Spring attack, the way they had described it to me, it seemed like I could Spring, FOB, move. Actually, I think that's what the DM had told me it would be. I'm sure he knows how it works according to the books, but he had changed other stuff to make it more powerful. For instance, my Stunning Fist ability has never had to damage an opponent, my attack role only needs to beat my target's Touch AC. I'm sure that I could convince my DM, if he changes his mind of the summer to keep it/change it to at least allow a FOB. However, does this change effect your advice any? Oddly enough, the other people in the game (we only have one Rogue, I incorrectly stated we had a dwarven Rogue, when he is actually a Ranger. I will fix that.) Don't spend barely any points in Spot/Listen. They have been leaving that up to me, while our Rogue is going for other skills, like use magic device, search, and others. Our march order usually involves the rogue being ahead of the group, with me behind him, and the rest of the group being about 30ft behind the rogue. This allows my good spot/listen to benefit the Rogue's average scores in those areas, and my good mobility/move silently to relay information back to the original group. I will definitely be taking the imp.Natural strike if possible. Thanks for pointing that out! I decided to play a Monk since I practice Kung Fu myself, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen. It makes it all the ore fun for me. I've been reading around here lately, and it seems to me that as a Monk I will have a hard time hitting anything. Is it really that bad?
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 10:40 AM	Also- What is the rule on gravity? I mean, I heard some of the players talking about gravity somehow adding to damage or something? I was thinking it might be fun, with my fast movement speed+high jump score, if it might be possible/fun to do something with it once in awhile.
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 11:50 AM	Your DM's house rules do change my advice somewhat. Using FoB with Spring Attack means your damage output may increase slightly. I still STRONGLY recommend you pickup Weapon Finesse as soon as possible. You'll need the boost to your attack rolls, especially if you'll be using FoB frequently. You share some of the same frailties as the party's rogue - mediocre BAB progression, little in the way of armor (right now your WIS bonus to armor is equal to the leather armor the rogue is probably wearing), mediocre HP (d8 is a bit better) - so you'll want to use some of the same tactics. Flank when possible for that +2 bonus to your attack rolls, try to let the party's tank(s) soften 'em up before closing in (though your increased movement and soon-to-be Spring Attack mitigate this a bit), do your best to never get caught within range of a full attack. Keep in mind that you can opt to use special attacks like Disarm and Trip as part of your Spring Attack. Don't underestimate the usefulness of these! An enemy fighter type is dramatically less effective on his back and/or empty-handed. Your slightly-above-average STR makes trip attacks a bit of a pain, but if you use a kama to make the attack you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped if you fail. Likewise, using a sai gets you a whopping +4 to your Disarm attempts. Too bad your INT isn't high enough to qualify for Combat Expertise, which is a prereq for Improved Trip and Improved Disarm (each of which grant a +4 to their respective checks). Still, use trips and disarms occasionally. Your party will thank you! As far as gravity is concerned: I'm not sure what you're asking. Standard falling damage is 1d6 per 10' drop. Beyond that, gravity really doesn't figure. As a monk, however, you get to ignore a portion of falling distance as noted in your class features. You get a +4 to Jump Checks for each 10' increment your movement speed is over 30', and a flat +2 if you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble (and +2 to Tumble checks w/ 5+ ranks in Jump). Be sure to understand the ins and out of Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) if you're going to put ranks into it.
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 12:18 PM	Thanks, you answered my jump question. The idea would be to get into a tree or house or something, and (if on the house) be able to jump to add extra damage. Just something silly. As a monk, at level 6 I can choose either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. Both of the following do not include ability bonuses. With a Sai, I would get a tottal of +8 to my disarm check, including not making an AoO, and not getting the disarm check against me (even though as a monk, it doesn't bother me horrible anyways) With a Kama, I get +6 tottal on my trip check, along with not making an AoO and I can drop the kama to avoid being tripped in return. If sucessful, I get an immediate attack as if I didn't make a trip attempt. With tripping, does this mean I can FOB the prone opponent? Or does this mean I get a normal attack? We definitely love flanking in our group. We learned when fighting a Green hag (CR 5 I think. The DM roled a 20 when he wanted a CR 4 monster for us). She was basically impossible to hit, lol. So it seems I need to decide which would be better for my char, either tripping or disarming.... Both sound really good, but I think it will depend on whether I can FoB after tripping. I'm thinking that just sounds very delicious if I can.
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 12:51 PM	As a monk, at level 6 I can choose either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. Of course. Might help if I reviewed the class description, huh? I'm more intimately familiar with MY chosen class - the rogue. Good catch! The idea would be to get into a tree or house or something, and (if on the house) be able to jump to add extra damage. What you're looking for is Leap Attack, from Complete Adventurer, but I believe that's part of the Power Attack feat tree - and your STR isn't high enough for that. Anything else would be by DM fiat. So it seems I need to decide which would be better for my char, either tripping or disarming A few things to help you decide: Being prone imparts -4 to both melee attacks and your AC vs melee attacks. This makes it easier for all party members to hit with melee attacks. Flanking rogues still get their +2 flanking bonus to hit (for a net +6 increase on their attack!), and still get Sneak Attack damage. Getting up from prone is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. You (or others in your party) can attempt another trip attack as your attack of opportunity. Prone opponents can still make armed attacks. The BBEG with the Uber Sword of Evil Nastiness is only slightly less dangerous (-4 to hit), but if he hits, its still gonna hurt. Picking up a dropped (or disarmed) weapon is (I think) a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity. A disarmed opponent must either fight empty-handed (perhaps initiating a grapple) or draw another weapon. Drawing a weapon is a move action that draws an attack of opportunity, unless the character has the Quick Draw feat. A disarmed opponent isn't any easier to hit (no AC penalty). They DO have their damage capability dramatically reduced. The BBEG isn't quite so dangerous (or is he?) when his Uber Sword of Evil Nastiness is on the floor at his feet. Opponents with natural weapons cannot have their natural weapons disarmed, but you might be able to trip them. With tripping, does this mean I can FOB the prone opponent? Or does this mean I get a normal attack? It's a single melee attack at your highest BAB. 'Course, if your DM is allowing FoB on Spring Attack he may allow FoB on a successful Improved Trip.
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 12:56 PM	Ok. I don't think it's any easier to decide, as they both seem like very good options... But you did clear up some stuff for me, which helps a lot. Now, going back to one of my past questions- is my BAB really going to hurt me? I keep hearing that "it's going to be hard to hit things." Also-Am I reading the SRD right? It looks like eventually my FOB bonus will be greater than my normal attack bonus? Is this supposed to balance out the 3/4 BAB progression?
DrMorganes 06-30-07, 02:04 PM	is my BAB really going to hurt me? It won't hurt you any more than it hurts the party's rogue. In essence this means that you need to be aware that you'll have a hard time going toe-to-toe with opponents possessing a high AC. Do what is necessary to improve your combat rolls with feats or magic and use tactical combat to your advantage. Am I reading the SRD right? It looks like eventually my FOB bonus will be greater than my normal attack bonus?I think you may be looking in the Save Bonus column in the SRD, which shows +12/+12/+12 for your Fortitude, Will, and Reflex Save Bonuses at Level 20. Your BAB at Level 20 is +15, just like any other class with a 3/4 BAB progression. FoB at Level 20 is +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. When you're able, make sure you acquire magic to help boost your attack rolls and your AC. Having Weapon Finesse on your feat list means one potion (Cat's Grace) will boost both your offensive and defensive capabilities. Items like Amulets of Natural Armor, Bracers of Armor, and Rings/Cloaks of Protection (granting Natural Armor, Armor, and Deflection bonuses to AC respectively) are going to be a VERY good idea for you. Magic weapons - the staple of all other melee classes - become less important to you, but you DO need some sort of magic item granting the equivalent of a weapon enhancement bonus. Keep in mind that you benefit equally from Magic Weapon and Magic Fang types of spells (which can be made Permanent). Obviously you can always have a kama or sai enchanted, but at higher levels you'll do more damage with your Unarmed Strikes. It's ironic: the class one typically considers as not overly interested in material possessions is the one that - at higher levels - is almost entirely dependent upon them!
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 02:16 PM	Is it better to ge the +ac items, or to get +wis/dex items?
Rorscarch 06-30-07, 07:06 PM	Personally, focus on AC-Boosting items and Wis-Boosting items. Wis is useful for monks beyond AC, and the extra AC that you will get from bracers of armor/amulet of natural armor/ring of protection will easily outshine the maximum +3 AC granted from Gloves of Dexterity. I think you get a higher STR score. In my experience, one of the most important things for any melee class is the Power Attack feat.
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 11:26 PM	I was actually told just the opposite, in regards to power attack. If I recall correctly, I give up attack bonus to add to damage? With a lower attack bonus, why would I want to give it up?
DrMorganes 07-01-07, 04:08 PM	For pure melee types (any class with a full BAB progression), Power Attack makes sense because they have the BAB to burn. It's also the doorway to an entire feat tree that does some crazy damage if you hit. For light tanks like rogues and monks (or anyone with a 3/4 BAB progression), it's best to find other ways to boost your damage than taking penalties to your attack roll.
Silver_Bulette 07-01-07, 08:56 PM	RP advice; So go do what you like/ and make sure you do it wise/ you may find out that your self doubt/ means nothing was ever there/ you can't go forcing something if it's just not right.
Fuzzly 07-04-07, 02:14 AM	Anyone seen "The 36th Chamber of Shaolin"? I'm thinking of playing a character similar to that. He was kicked out of his temple for wanting to bring his temple's martial arts to the outside world. Now, he is on a journey of discovery. He wants to get people interested in learning to defend themselves. If more people could defend themselves, then there would be less strife. However, he knows he isn't strong enough to teach anyone yet. He also wants divine guidance, so he visits every temple he can looking for a sign. Of what? He doesn't know. This is a very rough idea, what do you think?
kelvinaw273 07-04-07, 03:35 AM	Personally, focus on AC-Boosting items and Wis-Boosting items. Wis is useful for monks beyond AC, and the extra AC that you will get from bracers of armor/amulet of natural armor/ring of protection will easily outshine the maximum +3 AC granted from Gloves of Dexterity. I think you get a higher STR score. In my experience, one of the most important things for any melee class is the Power Attack feat. Bear in mind that if you have Weapon Finesse a high Dex boost ups your AC and your unarmed attack bonus both. I recomend taking items that boost your Touch AC as well as AC in general, as this makes you fiendishly hard to hit by those pesky rays and bolts. Combine it with your Evasion and good all-round saves and you will be the bane of spell-casters. What you must bear in mind is that the monk is not a tank - you have two main combat roles: 1) Mobile Reserve - battles are won by getting there 'fastest with the mostest' and you have the 'fastest' down to a tea. Wherever you are needed, you can be. Rogues scouting and in trouble - you're there first; fighters up against a tough foe - your there flanking; wizards getting mobbed by mooks - you're in as the bodyguard with FOB. 2) Skirmisher/flanker - You have the mobility and the speed to get behind the lines and hit hard and fast where it hurts, and cause general chaos. Always remember that for you there are other ways of dishing damage than Power Attack, a feat near to useless to you. Your big advantage is the number of attacks you can dish out, so capitalize on it.