Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quizzit 02-08-08, 04:11 PM	Hey guys, Sorry for the cross post here but.... Character Death in the DM Forum (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986462) There aren't any players posting and I am really interested in these opinions. Basically, when you character dies, what should then happen? Should death be permanent? Should the DM give you a way to reclaim your character? Does the Campaign revolve around the Characters, or are Characters merely a tool to move through said Campain? Whats the Player side of this thought?
CryoSilver 02-08-08, 04:29 PM	As a player, I'm saddened when my character dies, but as long as his death is sufficiently cool (eg, died by trying to fight Cthulhu using a corpse as a greatclub) I'm satisfied to let him stay dead.
Elsydeon 02-08-08, 05:48 PM	Every game I've ever played in (save the first. Shadowrun 3rd ed. Hand of God rule or something like that) threw out any and all resurrection stuff in the book. Healing is one thing, but when death no longer carries serious consequences the game stops being interesting IMO. Sure I prefer cool deaths. But I've had character I liked die in lame ways that lead to cool stories and villains that wouldn't have existed otherwise. So it's a wash. If it's a death that feels unsatisfying the DM can always fudge the rolls beforehand and at least let me keep the illusion of risk. Edit: HEAVY RP games, by the way. Saw comments about death=hack and slash in the link. Characters cannot develop if they do not struggle. They cannot struggle if the ultimate loss is a minor inconvenience to them.
TheFlyingAsian 02-08-08, 06:04 PM	If it's one dead PC, sure. Raise Dead FTW. If it's a whole party, decide of it's an epic death or not. If it is, sure. They become legends (at least in the gaming group), and you roll up new characters. But if it's a terrible series of unfortunate events that led to a whole party death, the DM should've (IMO) fudged the die rolls, but not tell the PC's, obviously. Kinda up to the DM, I guess, but that's what I think. I think a whole party should never be wiped out by a normal encounter unless eother the DM or the PC's are doing something stupid. But 2, 3, 4 PC deaths, whatever. As long as their's one survivor who ran away, if only to get mercenary help to ressurect the dead comrades. If the PC died because of some act of extreme stupidity (like "I tough the gem""It shocks you for 4d6""I touch it again""WTF?"), Raise Dead should still be used, but warn the PC that character death should not be taken lightly. Maybe increase the penalties for a ressurection? Maybe? Whatever. /rant
Eldritch_Lord 02-08-08, 06:27 PM	In my games resurrection is much more difficult than just collecting a bunch of diamond dust for a high level caster. The quests to find and bring back the dead person are quests in their own right, so resurrection adds more to the games than starting a new character would. That said, were I to be forced to use resurrection as-is (say, playing in someone else's game) I doubt I'd want a resurrection; it cheapens death, I think, and I'd appreciate the chance to play someone new, particularly if they're avenging a previous character.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 10:46 AM	Resourceful characters should have sufficient scope within the rules to usually avoid death, and where unavoidable they should have resource to usually get around it. Having said that, the threat that death is permanent should be present. Just because there are clerics in the game that can cast resurrection does not mean that they will if you just throw them enough gold. If a character dies of 'natural' causes (getting beaten to death by a bunch of orcs he was silly enough to try and fight when he could have retreated) priests might refuse to raise him. If he gets blasted by a Finger of Death spell and fails his save, they may decide it was an unnatural death, he died before it was time and raise them.
Sinis 02-09-08, 11:28 AM	If there weren't so many ways for your life to be completely and unfairly snuffed out, I'd agree. Even still, I usually have some sort of penalty for being resurrected/raised, other than the level loss.
Elsydeon 02-09-08, 11:40 AM	Any GM that wants a 'death is really death' policy in his games will very sparingly use the save or dead types of abilities for his NPCs, and will urge the PCs to do the same. Encounters in games like these require less NPC/baddy character building to ensure the right challenge level, and more situation crafting to keep the PCs on their toes. You get used to it. But if the PCs like a tactic, a counter-tactic or copy cat enemy is bound to show up at some point in the campaign. So if they don't listen they're rolling the dice.
jage 02-09-08, 01:04 PM	Reading both threads it sounds like you don't like any of the answers you're getting. My current DM fudged some rolls for me in the last session as I was new and he was trying to help me out. It didn't involve death, but my character entered the game penniless as part of my background. The first thing that happened was we gambled and I won 2000pp on a roll of 12 on a d100 with borrowed money. Huh? When all the other players were like "2000?" he changed it to 400. His attitude was like, "Uh, ah, you uh won." It was obvious he saw my character as weak and fudged. He did it later a couple of times. If it doesn't change next session I'm going to talk to him. It's no fun and not challenging. I roll bad. I don't want concessions for it. Death should be permanent, unless part of the story is a reasonable way and means to reincarnate. Rolling up 3 characters a session every session isn't any good either, that's too far the other way. But dying 3 times with different characters over multiple sessions before reaching level 6 with one of those characters? That's survival of the fittest. You gotta learn to protect your hide. But your responses seem like you're just waiting for someone to agree with your particular take on it so I think I'm wasting my breath. Ah well, just an excuse to interject some Darwinism...
Eldritch_Lord 02-09-08, 02:18 PM	So if they don't listen they're rolling the dice. And even if they do listen...they're still rolling the dice! ;)
CmdrCorsiken 02-09-08, 02:18 PM	Hey guys, Should death be permanent? Should the DM give you a way to reclaim your character? Does the Campaign revolve around the Characters, or are Characters merely a tool to move through said Campain? There is no answer that applies to all situations. These are questions that should be discussed and settled before the game starts. On the topic of campaign/character focus... Players who are given total freedom in character creation tend to expect a more character-centered campaign. Players who are provided setting details and story concepts in advance typically expect more focus on the campaign story. (Plus, they may create their character accordingly.) I have played in both types of campaigns that were immensly entertaining. I have also played in some that didn't work because the players had total freedom initially but the DM had prepared a very specific campaign story. As a group, we were all disappointed because we each had a different set of expectations, none of which worked out. On the topic of character death... I personally prefer the riskier feel of playing in games without a means (especially a relatively easy means) of bringing a character back from death. So the lack of such magic would certainly not turn keep me out of a game. However, I know many other players who grow quite attached to their characters, including the in-game story associated with that character. They would never join a game that allowed no means of getting their character back from the dead. On either of these, as well as many other issues of game-style, it is vital to discuss them before the game begins, before characters are even created, in fact. Players need clear communication from their DM up front to make sure their expectations are not drastically different from the DM's. A great many game-breaking issues can be avoided by the simple act of talking about them ahead of time.
Shades_of_Grey 02-09-08, 06:08 PM	I am personally against reincarnation for my characters. If they died in a cool way then they should stay dead. On the other hand, I have allowed characters to be brought back for the good of the group.
Lord_Varos 02-09-08, 07:07 PM	It could be that this is just a side-effect of playing too much Exalted, but my favorite way to play is with no return-to-life magic at all. This is not necessarily the best way to play, but I prefer it. Of course, Dungeons and Dragons isn't as good for this sort of game, since the HP system is so... blah and the PCs are in combat almost every minute of the day, often against save or die magic. Then the player creates a new character at APL-1 or the lowest level among PCs, whichever is lower. The character is not added immediately in the campaign, and we do not play out the meeting. We just decide how they came to meet and the process of bringing the new PC into the fold, and have it happen "off-screen." This eliminates the awkward and usually contrived, "Hail, traveler! You are an adventurer as well? Well, we just had a position open! Why don't you come and travel with us and risk your life for our goals?" situation.
Thubby 02-09-08, 09:20 PM	there are no special provisions for death in my game. if i put a high lvl cleric in the village, he's still there. if not, good luck. as to new characters, i don't warp the world to make it work. if they fight some bandits i might make the new guy their prisoner, noncombat encounters on my encounter tables are the new pc. or something similarly normal. the who and why I leave to my Players.
Daeva 02-09-08, 11:55 PM	just got out of a game where character death was way to common, and i dont think a single death was heroic, most of them were because a person wandered more than 40 feet from the group (in two cases literally) by the time i quit at level 4ish only two people were playing their starting race (because of reincarnate) and one just happend to roll human again. he also made us start one leve behind half way through level if we got revived, which is fine and normal, but one level behind with exact xp needed if we rerolled. point is i didn't enjoy it and i don't think others do, we were just tools in the process of his storytelling with an ever changing cast. when i gm i usually make the person who gets revived with the exact same percent wise needed for level (if they were 75% to level 5 and died, they would be 75% until level 4) i like character driven games over story ones i guess?
Quizzit 02-10-08, 01:20 AM	Reading both threads it sounds like you don't like any of the answers you're getting. But your responses seem like you're just waiting for someone to agree with your particular take on it so I think I'm wasting my breath. Ah well, just an excuse to interject some Darwinism... Not at all Jage. At this point I'm more just interested in the replies. I am however quite supprised on how many responses support the "death is permanent" camp. Perhapps those who are in agreement with me are just shy. /snicker Come join my game in the "Kinder Gentler, world" :)
Minesril 02-10-08, 04:20 AM	I definitely think death should be permanent and all my characters have therefore had this policy of, 'if I die, do not raise me'. I think it takes the danger and risk out of the game if a character can just be resurrected, and it also could make characters do reckless actions knowing that death is not the end. It is also realistic that in battling evil sacrifices are going to be made. So long as my character goes down fighting, while not being happy, I can accept it.
kuonji 02-10-08, 07:16 AM	As a friend of mine once put it, death in DnD is like getting stitches for modern day people. Sure it sucks for a little bit and you might feel weak for awhile, but eventually you get back on your feet. I think part of it is level based. At low to mid levels coming up with the resources to get someone brought back to life can be challenging. At higher levels, dying is just one more wound condition that happens rather often and is easily curable. In the last high level campaign I was playing in, I remember being level 18-20 and dying a couple times. Combat started to sound like this: "Ok, enemies are dead, anyone not alive?" "Yea, I'm dead." "Get one of the true res scrolls and get back up, we've got a job to do." Death is a part of DnD. Sometimes permanent death is appropriate to a situation or perhaps a party simply lacks the resources to bring a party member back to life. But I'm a firm believer that at higher levels, there are just too many ways to be killed in one shot (traps, save or die magics, huge melee hits/crits, etc) for there to be no way in which to bring a character back to life.
Elsydeon 02-10-08, 07:44 AM	Kuonji, isn't that just commentary on the flaws in high level play? Too many insta-deaths, the bookkeeping involved in item/consumable dependent games, and if played even halfway smart, death being nigh impossible? I mean, pick a lawful deity, donate a bunch of money, and ask for a monthly scry and rez routine if you've been killed. Or the insanity of the save game mechanics developed on the char op board. There's a reason high/epic level play isn't considered the sweet spot. Most people feel that after a certain point (peg it at 12-15 depending on what you play) the game gets worse the higher your level instead of better. Half the reason high level guys go looking for immortality is that age is their only remaining weakness. No big need to focus on the other areas where you can be hurt, because with a little planning you'll just be back even if you lose. That's just ridiculously boring.
CCS 02-10-08, 01:29 PM	What's the Player side of this thought? Basically, when your character dies, what should then happen? IMO, whatever would logically follow within the game/story/adventure/enviroment your playing. Yes, you might get rezzed. But you might have to create a new character. Sometimes you'll be able to hop right back into action, other times you might well find yourself sitting out for a bit. And any new characters should be introduced into the game in as logical a fashion as possible. Of all the ways to add a character my least favorite is for them to simply appear standing there, all ready to go. Should death be permanent? More or less, yes. Granted, this is D&D and eventually our characters can gain access to ways & means to cheat/avoid/reverse death. But that doesn't mean such things should be commonly available just because your character has all kinds of loot. Basically if one of us isn't supplying the anti-death magic then we have no room to complain about it's availability. Should the DM give you a way to reclaim your character? To a certain extent, yes. You can recover the bodies, you can use whatever means your characters possess, then you might be able to go on quests etc to achieve this goal (well, your friends can at any rate, taking your replacement PC along). But at the same time it's not reasonable to just expect the DM to provide such easy outs as allowing you to simply throw $ at an NPC cleric whenever you need it. Or to allow you to just buy scrolls etc that produce such death-reversing effects. Why? Because this is the stuff hero & villan alike quest after. The stuff tales & legends get spun out of. You know, fountains of youth, Holy Grail, lazerus pits, journeys to/through the underworld - all the things that inspire people to go out & adventure.... Does the Campaign revolve around the Characters, or are Characters merely a tool to move through said Campain? As far as I'm concerned, character. And I say this as both a DM & a player. When I Dm I generally run a very player driven game. Sure, I'll throw in plot hooks/elements, all kinds of background detail, & various stuff I like. But for the most part I simply respond to what my players say/do. Very often I'll have only a vague idea of what I think is going to happen in a session. The rest gets ad-libbed as needed. When I'm a player I expect the story to form around my companions and I. I make characters with backgrounds, personalities, goals, etc. And I set out to accomplish those goals. And I expect the other players to do the same. Essentially I refuse to be railroaded & seek to avoid doing it to those I DM for.