Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterOfPsychic 06-15-05, 04:02 PM	Am I wrong, or is cha THE dumping stat? I mean unless you are a spellcaster which uses cha as prime abillity, or a turner (Read: anyone which benefits from divine feats), it won't hurt to have like 3 cha or something... That is unless you roleplay after your abillities, which does not happen often...
yonman 06-15-05, 04:18 PM	I role play charisma all the time if it is with an NPC and the person has a bad charisma. I use diplomacy to create the initial response when meeting new NPCs.
smileybob1 06-15-05, 04:57 PM	Am I wrong, or is cha THE dumping stat? I mean unless you are a spellcaster which uses cha as prime abillity, or a turner (Read: anyone which benefits from divine feats), it won't hurt to have like 3 cha or something... That is unless you roleplay after your abillities, which does not happen often... ha i get it your real name is MasterOfTroll interesting point considering your sig
Kintara 06-15-05, 05:39 PM	Am I wrong, or is cha THE dumping stat? I mean unless you are a spellcaster which uses cha as prime abillity, or a turner (Read: anyone which benefits from divine feats), it won't hurt to have like 3 cha or something... That is unless you roleplay after your abillities, which does not happen often...Mechanically, it's usually a safe bet. Classes with Good Will saves and no class abilities tied to it can dump Wis, too. The Unearthed Arcana board has discussed some mechanical additions to Charisma to give it more mechanical benefits. I don't see much wrong with doing that, if you can find something that fits. For example, tying Charisma to Action Points or Bonus feats has been discussed. I kind of like the idea of Charisma adding to (or subtracting from) AC vs. Incorporeal Touch attacks, sort of like an analog to the ability that such creatures get themselves. Although Charisma has less mechanical oomph and versatility than the other ability scores, it doesn't mean I always dump it. It doesn't take that much of an ability score bonus to make your character stand out. Most people don't see 14 or 15 all that often, so 12/13 is respectable. That said, the reason mechanics matter is that if it has more mechanical benefits, it makes characters that wouldn't be as playable more fun to play. Sure, a Fighter can be Intimidating, take other Cha skills cross-class, and take Leadership to take advantage of a high Charisma, but it would be nice if characters received something else to allow them to capitalize on that kind of talent. Feats like the one in Complete Adventurer that adds Cha to saves vs. Mind Effects help, though. A feat tree on the level of Combat Expertise or Power Attack with an opening feat requiring Cha 13 would be nice. There aren't too many, atm.
solbergb 06-15-05, 05:57 PM	if you are a spellcaster, I'd say strength is a more obvious dump stat than charisma. All you really need to hold is your spell comp pouch. Str, Wisdom and Cha are the most commonly dumped stats in my experience. Everyone needs constitution and most people want more than 1 skill point a level, so int usually gets some love. I'm not entirely sure why dex isn't dumped as often as wisdom, maybe people just like initiative rolls and AC. But it seems like str or wis is more likely to suffer.
LCD2YOU 06-15-05, 06:06 PM	it all depends. If you're playing a Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin or any other class that relies on it for bonuses, don't skimp there. Dexterity for a Paladin or Wisdom for Bards or Sorcerers can be the light stat. For the other classes, Fighters, Rangers, Monks, Wizards and dungeon delving Rogues can forgo it. Clerics need it to help their turning abilities. So look for what you want in a character and make it that way. Remember though, Charisma does not mean looks. I had a Ranger with 8 Charisma who was quite good looking but had a terrible stutter and had no problem doing things like the one nostril nose blow motion in a crowded bar. He was not rude, he just didn't know how to behave. IMHO, here are my Stat for each Class guide. Rated Highest Stat to lowest: Bard: Cha, Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis Cleric: Wis, Cha, Int, Con, Str, Dex Druid: Wis, Cha, Int, Dex, Con, Str Fighter: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha Monk: Wis, Dex, Int, Con, Cha, Str Paladin: Cha, Wis, Str, Con, Int, Dex Ranger: Dex, Str, Con, Wis, Cha, Int Rogue: Dex, Int, Cha/Con, Str, Wis Sorcerer: Cha, Dex, Con, Str, Int, Wis Wizard: Int, Dex, Con/Cha, Wis, Str However, it is fun to have a Human Rogue with an 18 Intelligence :D
VirgilCaine 06-15-05, 06:12 PM	Yeah, there's a group in my university Gaming Guild that has a few characters with 3 Cha. Because the DM uses some weird-GURPS-like point buy system from Unearthed Arcana or something. But, IMC, you'd be totally unable to be well, anything with 3 cha. Because you either are too shy and sullen to talk to someone or when you do, you are so tactless and offensive that they never want to talk to you again.
MasterOfPsychic 06-15-05, 06:16 PM	ha i get it your real name is MasterOfTroll interesting point considering your sig I only tried to figure out wheter there where any backpoints about having low cha... ;) LCD2YOU: Bard: Cha, Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis Cleric: Wis, Cha, Int, Con, Str, Dex Druid: Wis, Cha, Int, Dex, Con, Str Fighter: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha Monk: Wis, Dex, Int, Con, Cha, Str Paladin: Cha, Wis, Str, Con, Int, Dex Ranger: Dex, Str, Con, Wis, Cha, Int Rogue: Dex, Int, Cha/Con, Str, Wis Sorcerer: Cha, Dex, Con, Str, Int, Wis Wizard: Int, Dex, Con/Cha, Wis, Str One thing struck me: Monk is a figthing class, why would it have STR as lowest abillity? I'd say: Wis, Dex, Str, Con, Int, Cha And, what would a wizard use CHA for? correct would be: Int, Dex, Con, Wis, Str, Cha For a Druid, cha ain't a secoundary abillity; They might need it for animal empathy, but having a hi cha is only a minimal bonus. I'd say: Wis, Dex, Con, Int, Cha, Str Paladin: Charisma is def. NOT prime abillity, they are fighters with extra abillities, not extra abillities with some fighting skill... Rather: Str, Con, Cha, Dex, Wis, Int ------------------------------ Having a Cha of 3 would NOT necesary mean that you are nasty, it could simply mea that you are non-descript, and if you talk to anyone, they won't remeber you next time... For sure....
Kintara 06-15-05, 06:44 PM	IMHO, here are my Stat for each Class guide. Rated Highest Stat to lowest: Bard: Cha, Dex, Int, Con, Str, Wis Cleric: Wis, Cha, Int, Con, Str, Dex Druid: Wis, Cha, Int, Dex, Con, Str Fighter: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha Monk: Wis, Dex, Int, Con, Cha, Str Paladin: Cha, Wis, Str, Con, Int, Dex Ranger: Dex, Str, Con, Wis, Cha, Int Rogue: Dex, Int, Cha/Con, Str, Wis Sorcerer: Cha, Dex, Con, Str, Int, Wis Wizard: Int, Dex, Con/Cha, Wis, StrWell, that's unusual in a couple ways. I'd put Str above Charisma, and definitely above Wis for Paladins. They only need a 14 Wis by level umpteen to get all their spells. They can lean on an item, if need be. Strength (or possibly Dex) will serve a Pally better in his role as a fighting character. Charisma is nice, and he should definitely get a cloak ASAP, but I wouldn't put my best stat in it. Str, Cha, Con, Wis, Dex/Int for Paladins, imo (though I probably wouldn't "dump" anything as a Pally, if I could help it). A Cleric's situation depends on what the PC is going for. Physical stats can be important for a Cleric, and Con always is. Clerics tend to get in the thick of things because of their role as healer, so they might as well not suck in combat. Charisma should probably not be dumped, but you can live with only a decent score. Druids don't need Charisma, except for Wild Empathy, but skills are always nice, so I'd put Int above it.* Same with Rangers. Monks should try to avoid dumping Strength, as it tends to make them dissappointingly ineffective in combat. Finesse Fighting Monks work, but I wouldn't call it standard. Int and Cha are more appealing dump stats. Wizards can dump Str, Wis, or Cha really. I'd make them at least equal. Con is definitely above them all. Strength is nice to have for hitting with touch spells and carry weight. The Rogue's relationship with Charisma is situational. They can easily dump it if they aren't the party face. UMD ramps up fast enough that it's not a big deal to be mediocre. Wisdom, on the other hand, adds to Spot and Listen, and improves one of their Weak saves. I'd say it's more useful. *Druids are unusual in that they can get away with dumping Str, Dex and Con, and just Wild Shape out of the penalties. Dumping Con can still be rather annoying, though. Edit: Oh, and here's the Barb: Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. I'm tempted to make Dex equal with Con, as Dex would compensate for a common weak spot with Barbs: AC.
SilverFoxKnows 06-15-05, 06:51 PM	For a Rogue I like Bluff, Gather Info, Intimidate and Diplomacy. For Ranger, Barbarian and Druid I place some importance on Handle Animal and/or Wild Empathy. YMMV.
TinManFan 06-15-05, 07:22 PM	"Wizards can dump Str, Wis, or Cha really. I'd make them at least equal. Con is definitely above them all. Strength is nice to have for hitting with touch spells and carry weight." I always believed touch spells = Dex cause you just have to touch them, not rip through all that armor and scales and crap.
Cloud Clone 06-15-05, 07:40 PM	I've been playing as a monk with a 6 as his charisma score. It hasn't been bad at all since someone else was playing the lead speaker and such. So if you don't really need charisma for anything, go ahead and dump it. It's worked fine for me.
BW0222 06-15-05, 07:43 PM	MasterOfPsychic, >Am I wrong, or is cha THE dumping stat? ... Yes. It depends upon your character build, but Cha isn't a good idea to dump for most classes. Obviously, bard and sorceror need a high charisma for spellcasting, and the paladin can't dump it since it helps with saves and lay-on-hands. However, there are a lot of other classes in which dumping it isn't a good idea. Clerics need it for turning. Druids need it for handle animal and wild empathy. Rogues need it for bluff, disquise, diplomacy. Almost everyone needs it for diplomacy. Finally, it is darn useful for leadership. Short changing charisma has some pretty serious consequences if your DM is playing it correctly. It is harder to deal with merchants when buying and selling stuff. You often end-up in fights you could otherwise avoid. There are lots of situations where you honestly can't fight your way out of -- a noble, guards, the super-high level wizard. That leaves hiding, fleeing, or talking. The later is the easiest to succeed on and has the best results if successful. It can also be tried without limiting anything else. Personally, If I had to have a character with 10's and one 18, I'd rather be a high charisma character. Almost every other stat can be compensated for by a high charisma -- just convince a number of folks to come along with you.
Kintara 06-15-05, 09:12 PM	However, there are a lot of other classes in which dumping it isn't a good idea. Clerics need it for turning. Druids need it for handle animal and wild empathy. Rogues need it for bluff, disquise, diplomacy. Almost everyone needs it for diplomacy. Finally, it is darn useful for leadership. Short changing charisma has some pretty serious consequences if your DM is playing it correctly. It is harder to deal with merchants when buying and selling stuff. You often end-up in fights you could otherwise avoid. There are lots of situations where you honestly can't fight your way out of -- a noble, guards, the super-high level wizard. That leaves hiding, fleeing, or talking. The later is the easiest to succeed on and has the best results if successful. It can also be tried without limiting anything else. Druids don't "need" it for Wild Empathy, and Rogues don't "need" it if they don't take many Cha skills. Think about the Rogue, for instance. A Rogue might take Search and Disable Device, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand, Spot and Listen, Bluff and Use Magic Device. That would assume an above average Int, already. And look, there are some important Int skills that are hard to ignore. You might as well take more Int, and therefore take more skills. If you use point buy, think of the trade off of taking Int over Cha. And look at Wis. Two juicy, constantly rolled skills just sitting there to get a bonus, and you get Will saves, too. Assuming you took Disguise and Diplomacy instead, you'd probably also want Sense Motive, too. That still makes Wis awfully tempting. As for social interactions, those points hold up better in a solo situation. Otherwise, you just have the party face handle diplomacy. Of course there are scenarios when you have to handle it yourself, but there's a reason why you're adventuring together. If the Rogue is the party face, then I could see Cha making sense as being the third highest (behind Dex and Int). I mean, don't get me wrong. Charisma can be nice if you have a lot of Cha skills, but most characters don't, or already have another reason to take Cha (Pallies, Bards, Clerics, etc.).
kam_Islash 06-15-05, 09:19 PM	Intimidate can give you an edge in battle; a successful check can freak out your enemy. Bluff can get your opponent flat footed or scar ethem like with intimidate, I once made a giant shaken by telling it "You'd better watch it...you have no idea what kind of power I have!" ///
Kintara 06-15-05, 09:21 PM	Intimidate can give you an edge in battle; a successful check can freak out your enemy. Bluff can get your opponent flat footed or scar ethem like with intimidate, I once made a giant shaken by telling it "You'd better watch it...you have no idea what kind of power I have!"That's true. There are some abilities out there that can make this a neat tactic, but I think it's been underdeveloped. I'd like to see a good-sized feat tree devoted to combat uses of Cha. For instance, Improved Feint is an Int-based feat. And though Kiai Shout is Cha-based, it only works on mooks. If you want to improve on Feints or Demoralizing, your options aren't as decent as they could be.
Thorak 06-15-05, 09:30 PM	Charisma is only a dump stat if you enjoy playing antisocial loner types who don't interact well with others. If you want to play that dashing knight that all the ladies love, you need a high charisma. If you want that intimidating half-orc who everyone watches with a hint of fear in their eyes, you want a high charisma. If you want that kind of bleh guy who fades into the background, that's a low charisma.
GreatEye 06-15-05, 09:51 PM	Am I wrong, or is cha THE dumping stat? Yes it is. In my group, wisdom is also dumped frequently for Barbarians, Bards, Fighters, Rogues, Sorcerers and Wizards. Wisdom is weak.
weasel fierce 06-15-05, 09:56 PM	If the DM doesnt do his job, or your games are purely a long series of fights with monstrous rejects, with no interaction whatsoever, with intelligent humanoids... then yes, charisma is pretty much a dump stat.
SilverFoxKnows 06-15-05, 09:59 PM	and not just for the Will saves but it helps your Spot, Listen and Track rolls. I've spotted more than one would-be ambush with a really high Spot check.
d00m_b4b00n 06-15-05, 10:00 PM	Charisma is the easiest bump to get over if you've used it as a dump stat. While your character may have Cha 3 and be a smelly barely intelligible half-orc you are sitting round a table in a friendly atmosphere with your mates. Thus, unless you are LARPing or a fantastic actor, when the DM looks at you he sees you before he sees the orc and so do the npc's to a degree. Basically, in low RP campaigns it won't matter much because the skills don't come up often, in high RP campaigns it won't matter because the DM would rather you convince or threaten his well fleshed out npc's yourself than roll a dice to determin the outcome, and in your average RP campaigns it won't matter because people won't expect you to do the talking 'cause of your appauling Cha. So yes, Cha is about the easiest dump stat for people who don't like talking to npc's. Oh, and don't dump Wis if you're a bard, you'll get no sense motive and you'll be get fleeced by lying sods...
LCD2YOU 06-16-05, 08:26 AM	One thing struck me: Monk is a figthing class, why would it have STR as lowest abillity? I'd say: Wis, Dex, Str, Con, Int, Cha And, what would a wizard use CHA for? correct would be: Int, Dex, Con, Wis, Str, Cha For a Druid, cha ain't a secoundary ability; They might need it for animal empathy, but having a hi cha is only a minimal bonus. I'd say: Wis, Dex, Con, Int, Cha, Str Paladin: Charisma is def. NOT prime abillity, they are fighters with extra abillities, not extra abillities with some fighting skill... Rather: Str, Con, Cha, Dex, Wis, Int For the Monk, they're AC is modified by their Wis. Also, if they get the Feat that allows one to switch their Str for Wis in to hit and damage, it helps both. As Monks generally travel light, what good is Strength for then? As for the Wizard, at 2 points plus Int bonus for skills per level, not much if you think about the Knowledge Skills, Concentration, Spellcraft, etc., anything that could help them in a social situation without relying on magic, such as Charisma bonuses is a good thing. For Druids, skills like Animal Empathy and such is a good reason to have an above average Cha. Paladins Charisma does not matter? I disagree. They get save bonuses based off of Charisma. That is enough for me to want to take a few points more in that stat to have saves at 1st level of +3/+5/+3 or better. As the Pally's best defense is not fighting, being able to state your case, with help from modified die rolls, is a good idea. I also don't agree that Pallys are just fighters with special abilities. That is like saying Rangers are just specialized fighters, Druids are just another type of cleric, sorcerers are modified wizards and bards are rouges with musical abilities. Well, that's unusual in a couple ways. I'd put Str above Charisma, and definitely above Wis for Paladins. Why thank you. They only need a 14 Wis by level umpteen to get all their spells. They can lean on an item, if need be. Strength (or possibly Dex) will serve a Pally better in his role as a fighting character. Charisma is nice, and he should definitely get a cloak ASAP, but I wouldn't put my best stat in it. Str, Cha, Con, Wis, Dex/Int for Paladins, imo (though I probably wouldn't "dump" anything as a Pally, if I could help it). I would be more interested in getting a guantlet and belt for a Pally than a cloak. A Cleric's situation depends on what the PC is going for. Physical stats can be important for a Cleric, and Con always is. Clerics tend to get in the thick of things because of their role as healer, so they might as well not suck in combat. Charisma should probably not be dumped, but you can live with only a decent score. Druids don't need Charisma, except for Wild Empathy, but skills are always nice, so I'd put Int above it.* Same with Rangers. Monks should try to avoid dumping Strength, as it tends to make them dissappointingly ineffective in combat. Finesse Fighting Monks work, but I wouldn't call it standard. Int and Cha are more appealing dump stats. You make some good points but I don't follow the same idea. Wizards can dump Str, Wis, or Cha really. I'd make them at least equal. Con is definitely above them all. Strength is nice to have for hitting with touch spells and carry weight. The Rogue's relationship with Charisma is situational. They can easily dump it if they aren't the party face. UMD ramps up fast enough that it's not a big deal to be mediocre. Wisdom, on the other hand, adds to Spot and Listen, and improves one of their Weak saves. I'd say it's more useful. *Druids are unusual in that they can get away with dumping Str, Dex and Con, and just Wild Shape out of the penalties. Dumping Con can still be rather annoying, though. Edit: Oh, and here's the Barb: Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. I'm tempted to make Dex equal with Con, as Dex would compensate for a common weak spot with Barbs: AC. Something to be said for good Dex. Not being hit once or twice is worth 2 or 3 points of Con.
TinManFan 06-16-05, 08:50 AM	Uh, that Switching Wis for Str, uh, ahte to tell ya this but, well, actually it adds wis to dmg, unless we're talking different feats. There's the Exalted Feat (Inspiring Strike) and then there's the (CW I believe) feat that adds your wis mod to dmg. It was originally printed in OA I believe.
kam_Islash 06-16-05, 09:55 AM	when I DM, if any characters try to use Cha as a dump stat, they're paying double book for everything, not being welcome at Inns, and causing NPCs to scream in horror. ///
wonlee76 06-16-05, 10:08 AM	I had a group where half of the PCs dumped Charisma. The fighter types dumped their charisma down to 6 or less and the wizard did as well. Then they met a ghost that did charisma drain. It became a near TPK since the ghost was knocking out the melee guys and the wizard (unconscious, not dead yet) with its charisma drain. There are a handful of charisma draining creatures and items that the PCs should be very careful of and if I think charisma being a "dump" stat is a prevalent problem, I will use it against the group as a DM. I think Mummy Rot causes Con and Charisma damage with a 1 minute incubation period. Not a very nice disease when the PC can drop after a minute into the fight.
dngnb8 06-16-05, 10:20 AM	Cha is usually the dumping stat, but I think its also the most underrated stat. Cha is the tool of negotiation. Probably the most underused tool in the game. My Paladin's Cha was 22 at his retirement. I had him wear a helm when in towns because of the attention he drew. But boy, could he negotiate. Most people create their characters around the battle. Try creating a diplomat. While he can have average battle stats, give him incredible negotiating stats. You will see a huge difference in the metagame.
LCD2YOU 06-16-05, 10:22 AM	when I DM, if any characters try to use Cha as a dump stat, they're paying double book for everything, not being welcome at Inns, and causing NPCs to scream in horror. ///It don't matter what you do as long as you look good doing it.
Kintara 06-16-05, 02:13 PM	For the Monk, they're AC is modified by their Wis. Also, if they get the Feat that allows one to switch their Str for Wis in to hit and damage, it helps both. As Monks generally travel light, what good is Strength for then? Paladins Charisma does not matter? I disagree. They get save bonuses based off of Charisma. That is enough for me to want to take a few points more in that stat to have saves at 1st level of +3/+5/+3 or better. As the Pally's best defense is not fighting, being able to state your case, with help from modified die rolls, is a good idea. I also don't agree that Pallys are just fighters with special abilities. That is like saying Rangers are just specialized fighters, Druids are just another type of cleric, sorcerers are modified wizards and bards are rouges with musical abilities.There's a feat that allows adding Wis to attack in the BoED, and I think there's something in OA that allows Wis to damage, but that means two feats devoted to it, and not everyone has access to those feats. I don't actually play with that thing that adds Wis to damage, and I don't always want to be Exalted. What Strength is especially useful for is tripping and grappling, not to mention more damage with attacks. If I have a good Str, then I don't need to spend one or two of my 7/8 feats on switching my ability score dependancies around. Charisma is undeniably useful for a Paladin, and they often make good party faces, but they also often have to play the role of the tank/fighter in a group, and that's what they'll be doing in combat, should it happen. Most D&D games have plenty of Bad Guys and monsters that aren't really willing to chat. Besides, save bonuses aren't as essential at low levels. The really terrible spells and abilities that require saves come later, but Str is useful now. Really, though, Paladins benefit from having a good stat in practically any stat. They can dump Dex more easily than most, though, because they usually wear heavy armor and they have another way of improving their saves. Again, Diplomacy is a good idea, and groups should have a party face, but even if you had more than one character with a good Cha, are they going to double or tripple up on it? No, not usually. They'll just let the person with the highest modifier do the negotiation. It's not fool-proof, but it usually works. I wouldn't hesitate to make things more difficult if a group had one beautiful Paladin Holy Warrior of Super-Nicety trailed by a trio of embarrassingly inept nose-picking social idiots. But I like point buy, so I don't usually see people with Cha of less than 8. The Half-Orc Barbarian or Dwarven Fighter is usually the worst it can get, and I'm amused by socially inept barbarians and dwarves. ;)
BW0222 06-16-05, 03:38 PM	Kintara, >Druids don't "need" it for Wild Empathy, and Rogues don't "need" it if they >don't take many Cha skills. No character ever "needs" anything -- skill, stat, feat, etc. You can play a paladin with a 5 charisma, a wizard without spellcraft, or a barbarian without power attack. However, if you are building the 'optimal' druid build... give a 1st-level druid +10 on wild-empathy and handle animal, add calm and speak with animals, and she is walking around with a grizzly bear. >Think about the Rogue, for instance. ... Or one could forget all those abilities/skills and just max disquise, bluff, and diplomacy. Which is better, having a lot of skills or convincing/tricking/bribing someone else to do it for you? Chat up the captain of the guard and have thirty men raid the wererat hideout for you. Safe, efficient, and if it fails you aren't likely to be killed. Ultimately, it's choice. However, if you are talking shear power, a high-charisma build wins, since they stack the deck before the game is even played. A character with leadership, twenty friends, and the ear of the authorities is going to be more "powerful" than anyone else.
danielinthewolvesden 06-16-05, 04:00 PM	Well, yes, CHA is currently the weakest stat, and thus the most common dump stat. But as been shown here- it's still a good & valuable ability, and it's close. Boost CHA and then INT becomes Dump. The abilities are fairly well balnced in that every one of them is a "prime req' for at least one class, and every one can also be a "dump" for a different class. The abilities can't be PERFECTLY balanced, and thus someone has to be at the bottom of the totem pole.
allenchan 06-16-05, 04:05 PM	I've played Cha-based builds my last like 5 characters, and I'm what most would consider a powergamer. One build was an exalted barbarian with divine grace x 3, another was a paladin/fist of raziel who used the divine feats, another was a divine metamagic persistant user, another was a paladin/sorcerer gish.
Ithilorien 06-16-05, 04:40 PM	No matter how hard I try, I can't break my friends of the kneejerk "Charisma = Comeliness" fallacy. And for this reason, and the reason that I am a vain, prissy, and self-centered person who can't bear the thought of roleplaying someone who is unattractive it's never been a dump stat for me. On the other hand, however, it depends on how closely your group uses the RAW for social skills... I'm sure this will provoke a lot of those old cries of "OMG! Diplomacy is the end of roleplaying as we know it!" but the fact of the matter is if you just "roleplay" bluff, diplomacy, gather information, etc you aren't "really" roleplaying because your depending on your personal ability to be convincing, not your character's. A hefty skill check modifier for good roleplaying is in order but the fact remains that high-charisma characters with actual ranks in the social skills should be the ones successfully bluffing/diplomacizing/gathering information, not the half-orc warrior who picked Charisma as his dump stat and just happens to be charming in real life. As for another "power charisma build" Bard is an example right off but I also had good results with a Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight using the various divine feats and a suit of twilight mithral full plate (for those requiring rp reasoning behind this character he was a Knight of the Silver Fire - Mystra's chosen paladins and I'd imagine most of her paladins go eldritch knight and most of her clerics mystic theurge (or dweomerkeeper)).
Kerrexl 06-16-05, 04:48 PM	Having a Cha of 3 would NOT necesary mean that you are nasty, it could simply mea that you are non-descript, and if you talk to anyone, they won't remeber you next time... For sure.... I would not agree here, since if you meet someone which is very unapealing, you would notice them.. think about the drug using bum hanging around the mall or something similar.. if you want to be non-descriptive, place a 10 in cha, since you are then commmon, and fit into the general population... having a 3 in cha, makes you stand as must out from the crowd, as anyone with a cha 17... (both 7 points from the norm)
allenchan 06-16-05, 04:56 PM	when I DM, if any characters try to use Cha as a dump stat, they're paying double book for everything, not being welcome at Inns, and causing NPCs to scream in horror. Uhh... this begs the question, why? Charisma is NOT appearance. Its Force of Personality. Characters with low charisma dont make good leaders, they're followers, subservant. That's why they cant intimidate. It's because they're timid in social situations. Not because they're ugly. Ugly people can be intimidating. Ugly people can be forceful and be good leaders (ie leadership score). People who you forget even exist because they're sitting in the corner, those are people with low charisma.
Kintara 06-16-05, 06:09 PM	>Think about the Rogue, for instance. ... Or one could forget all those abilities/skills and just max disquise, bluff, and diplomacy. Which is better, having a lot of skills or convincing/tricking/bribing someone else to do it for you? Chat up the captain of the guard and have thirty men raid the wererat hideout for you. Safe, efficient, and if it fails you aren't likely to be killed. Ultimately, it's choice. However, if you are talking shear power, a high-charisma build wins, since they stack the deck before the game is even played. A character with leadership, twenty friends, and the ear of the authorities is going to be more "powerful" than anyone else. I've said multiple times that it's good to have a party face. Yes, a character can do a great deal with social skills. In fact, they don't even need Charisma to do so. Diplomacy has enough synergies and options to attain skill bonuses that your Charisma bonus is comparatively minor. Sure, you could put your 16 into Charisma instead of Dex or Con or Int as a Rogue, but the numerical benefit isn't particularly impressive, even if you are a "Diplomancer." Don't conflate what Charisma governs with the effectiveness of Charisma itself, and don't conflate having someone effective in a role with general effectiveness. Anyway, social power is power, there's no denying that, but D&D doesn't have particularly exciting mechanics for it. The social resolution mechanic in D&D is rather bland and simplistic. You're right, roleplaying is about choice. It's too bad that the system doesn't make the social mechanics more dynamic and interesting on their own. Or maybe it isn't too bad. Maybe most groups play D&D, and use the more dynamic magic and tactical combat systems a lot because the system is designed to encourage them to. "Power" is just as much about what the player can do as the character, and I don't think D&D shines as a social intrigue game. That's why most DMs design encounters that use other talents, and players make characters that use those other talents. Which brings me to the point that I think could use some help to be more a more interesting choice for a player to pursue. I wouldn't mind adding more to Charisma, and even making social interaction more interesting in the system.
LCD2YOU 06-16-05, 07:21 PM	Uhh... this begs the question, why? Charisma is NOT appearance. Its Force of Personality. Characters with low charisma dont make good leaders, they're followers, subservant. That's why they cant intimidate. It's because they're timid in social situations. Not because they're ugly. Ugly people can be intimidating. Ugly people can be forceful and be good leaders (ie leadership score). People who you forget even exist because they're sitting in the corner, those are people with low charisma. One should decide when they create their character what they look like and how they are percieved. One can be a "good looking person" with a low charisma. Come on, you know the type. Good body, nice looking but either crude as a sailor after a 9 month, no port of call "cruise" or as dumb as a box of rocks. Looks of course have been known to carry people through situations that would get "ugly" people shown the door. We also know people that when you first see them you aren't really attracted to them. However, their personality puts people at ease. Members of the opposite sex find them "attractive" even though they aren't their "type". For them, best of all they are liked by many and it is hard to think of them as "ugly", unless they really are truly hideous. One could break up Charisma into "Looks" and "Personality". As long as the DM and player keep the "scores" averaging out to the raw Charisma score, it can be used. Better "Looks" would make for better first impressions. Travelling from place to place and finding help (and companionship) would be easier to get. The handsome, yet conceited warrior who goes from town to town finding adventure and having trysts with the locals would be the archtype of that type of PC. Skills that don't require a build up of trust over time, those that deal with quick action would be helped by good looks and hurt by poor looks. A higher "Personality" score would make a character better at long term social settings. The "Grand Dame" of the court, the Wise and Personable Sage who is ready to help out, everyone's favorite barkeep and the like. Skills that require long term commitment, those that build relationships over time, would be helped with a high Personality score. An example would be a Ranger with a 12 Charisma. Let's give him a 15 for personality and a 9 for looks. Yeah, he has a hard time trying to attract the ladies in a crowded bar or getting anything more than a "Yup" or "Over there" when he asks people on the street, but after a short time, many learn he's a nice guy and interesting to talk to about the world he's seen. Of course, that requires more work on the DMs and Players parts.
MoogleEmpMog 06-17-05, 02:55 AM	Cha is the dump stat for aspiring munchkins who don't know how to properly optimize their PCs. :cool: Actually, Str is probably the best dump stat, followed by Int - for a combat character, anyway. Charisma can be added to attack and damage, saves, ac, and even hit points. Most of those can be made to stack, so you get Cha x 3 to hit, Cha x 2 to damage, Cha x 3 to saves and Cha to hit points. You can even add it to initiative! You can't do so much with any other stat using WotC rules. Plus, it's a spellcasting stat for two core classes. Dex and Con simply offer too much to be dumped because they impact saves and ac or hp. Wisdom impacts saves. NOTHING is more important than saves. Int can be stacked almost as well as Cha, but not quite and often at higher levels. Str can't be stacked to anything. It's inferior at damage-generation to Cha, and useless for almost everything else. It's only good because you can get it efficiently with mid-to-low LA races or templates, and because of the Hulking Hurler.
steenan 06-17-05, 05:19 AM	From a player's point of view: I, generally, like to play cha-based characters (sorcerers, bards). Even if I don't, I prefer to have at least average charisma, somewhere between "quite a nice guy" (12) and "just typical" (10). The lowest charisma I would ever take is "silent and undescript" (8) - and only for a character who works mostly alone and rarely interacts with people (a "burglar" or "dungeon delver"-type rogue, for example; not a fighter, because he often faces humanoid opponents in combat). From a DM's point of view: For me, charisma describes both force of personality, looks and subconscious behavior, affecting how people react to someone. It just tells me how one is percieved, no matter if it' s because of a nice face, fame or how he acts. With 14 or 16 Cha you give people a feeling of "that's really someone!", with 18 or higher you're becoming a celebrity. People won't take risks to help someone just because he has high charisma (that would need a die roll), but they will try to be nice and do whatever they're doing as good as they can (a shopkeeper will show them best wares he has; a innkeeper will take care that their rooms are clean and their meals tasty etc.). With charisma below 8, there's something that causes people to laugh at you. You may just look or smell ugly. You may speak with grammar and vocabulary mistakes, or "fail to remember the right word", or say something completely inappropriate often. You may slubber your clothes while speaking or eating. You may stutter. Or something simmilar. With low charisma, you won't be percieved as "silent, misterious and dangerous". Most people (including your party bard) won't come to your table not because you look intimidating, but because they don't want others to thing that they have anything to do with you. Maybe your party cleric will come. Out of pity.
FreeTheSlaves 06-17-05, 05:44 AM	Yes it is the oficial dump stat, look at the iconics. Otoh I find that social interaction occurs with some frequency in our games and charisma gets plenty of mileage. There is one player that I know wishes he had better social ranks/charisma but then again something has to give - only so many good scores. I think social skills give charisma real grunt but this is best exposed by a pc getting plenty of limelight compared to their companions.
Callista 06-17-05, 07:22 AM	I'm a low-CHA person myself... maybe about a 7, due to social clumsiness... so I have a bit of sympathy for these folks; but Charisma makes sense as a "dump stat" in a role-play sense too. It's kind of appropriate, though, isn't it? After all, adventurers are usually on the outside of society anyway; being rejected by most people can lead you to consider an unconventional lifestyle. Not to mention... if you've had to see things like a zombie killing a child, or the results of a drow raid... well, you might be the happy-go-lucky sort everyone likes; but you're less likely to be that way, or stay that way, after such a rough life. And physical appearance--what, you think sleeping rough, dealing with scars, disease, and the elements are good for the complexion? I think not... Most adventurers have low Charisma, unless they're leaders, or unless their "strength of personality" is what fuels their magic... it makes sense to me.
Da Dinictus 06-17-05, 09:37 AM	Yes it is. In my group, wisdom is also dumped frequently for Barbarians, Bards, Fighters, Rogues, Sorcerers and Wizards. Wisdom is weak.High-ho Listen and Spot, away! Yes, I think Charisma does seem like a dumpstat for most classes. My Tiefling Cleric had it as her dumpstat (and that -1 modifier hurt her, but she did well with high Dexterity). Even my Gargoyle Fighter has it as a dumpstat (also an 8, -1 modifier, but even that can be roleplayed). There really aren't many perks to the score besides a few skills. Most classes seem to do well with a not too high Charisma.
Siduakal 06-17-05, 03:06 PM	Ya.. my wizards stats.. lol his cha is higher than his wisdom (Due to race)
eudas 06-17-05, 05:42 PM	Intimidate can give you an edge in battle; a successful check can freak out your enemy. Bluff can get your opponent flat footed or scar ethem like with intimidate, I once made a giant shaken by telling it "You'd better watch it...you have no idea what kind of power I have!" /// I dunno, I looked at Intimidate and if you look at how it's rolled: "Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear)." Ok, so let's balance this equation. Intimidate vs Level check 1d20 + CHA mod + ranks + misc vs 1d20 + HD + WIS mod + save vs fear Stat mods are going to probably be in the same general vicinity unless the characters are max'd out on something for some reason. The difference is likely to be, in most cases, fairly minor, in the 1-5 range. Ranks vs HD comes out with, at most, a difference of 3 (assuming non-epic characters; 23 ranks vs 20HD) in favor of the intimidate check. This assumes, of course, that the intimidate character has chosen this as a tag skill to max out. If he hasn't, then the favor goes to the HD side of the equation. Save vs fear: this generally doesn't mean much, but if your target is a paladin, or is near a paladin, or receives this bonus from something else, then it shifts the favor to the intimidatee, and helps offset the favor generated by Ranks vs HD. So, to recap: I'll assume a 20th level character with a score of 20 in the relevant stat, and appropriate synergies. Intimidate vs Level check 1d20 + CHA mod + ranks + misc vs 1d20 + HD + WIS mod + save vs fear 1d20 + 5 + 23 + 2 vs 1d20 + 20 + 5 + 4 1d20 + 30 vs 1d20 + 29 In essence, if these two entities involved are anywhere *near* being "normal" or "average" characters, and not min/max'd out for the purpose of intimidating God Himself, then the intimidator has, more or less, about a 50/50 chance of successfully intimidating someone of his own level. This is consistent for his entire career. To rephrase that: Your character works hard his entire life, and is still only 50% successful against someone of equal level. Now, while it's true that the success level goes up dramatically if you are higher level than the target (the bigger the level difference, the more your success level jumps), but still, i think that this evaluation is more or less accurate, and shows that intimidate isn't intended to be a main method of diplomacy. And, if you're that much higher level than the target, why intimidate them when you can just crush them? (Yeah, there are out of combat uses for intimidating people, but for the combat use of intimidate, the point is valid.) In fact, Diplomacy can get +6 from synergies alone (Bluff, K(N&R), and Sense Motive); Intimidate has only +2 from Bluff. This gives diplomacy a difference of +4, and also doesn't leave a host of ******-off people in its wake. Diplomacy was intended to be used a whole lot more than Intimidate. Just a few thoughts. eudas
wordserpent 06-17-05, 06:57 PM	I'm a low-CHA person myself... maybe about a 7, due to social clumsiness... so I have a bit of sympathy for these folks; but Charisma makes sense as a "dump stat" in a role-play sense too. It's kind of appropriate, though, isn't it? After all, adventurers are usually on the outside of society anyway; being rejected by most people can lead you to consider an unconventional lifestyle. I have often felt this way about charisma, which is why I am not too terribly upset when my players use it as a dump stat. Not to mention... if you've had to see things like a zombie killing a child, or the results of a drow raid... well, you might be the happy-go-lucky sort everyone likes; but you're less likely to be that way, or stay that way, after such a rough life. You must have been reading my mind or something. And physical appearance--what, you think sleeping rough, dealing with scars, disease, and the elements are good for the complexion? I think not... I allow my player's characters to look however they like, if they have a low charisma score they will just be percieved as Stuck-up and dispised like any other low Charisma person would. Most adventurers have low Charisma, unless they're leaders, or unless their "strength of personality" is what fuels their magic... it makes sense to me. Again I agree. Mercenaries and those who are forced to live on the fringe of societey seldom care about other's feelings. The occasional Brilliant leader type will show up to take the reins of command (or at least do the talking for the group). I for one prefer a high Charisma score for my own characters because I'm one of those 'Role-playing' types. Though I did once play a barbarian with a low Charisma. He was very unpleasant to be around mostly due to his smell and his lack of social skills.
Ogmug 06-17-05, 07:05 PM	Diplomacy is good, but it is not as effective in combat as Intimidate is. Demoralize Opponent: You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you. can be quite effective, and if you are in combat, it doesn't matter if you leave ******-off opponents (since they most likely will be dead) Paladins of appropriate level however would be immune to intimidation (they are immune to fear, hence.. cannot be itimidated past 3rd level) I like the ideas above of using cha based drains...You so.. disgusting you can't even live :P
kam_Islash 06-17-05, 10:27 PM	Only ones that can see me? Oh well, there goes the idea of being invisible, 5 foot stepping around my foe and taunting him.... Here's one I'd like to try: My char has fire Warding leather armor. When he gets hit with a fireball, I'll have my DM roll damage before I make a save. If the damage is less than 50 after being halved, i'll abstain from saving.... I'll walk through the smoke, undamaged and say to the caster: "You call that a spell?" ///
RogerWilco 06-18-05, 06:42 AM	In second edition we had a player with cha 4 in the party (yes we rolled 6 x 3d6 and he rolled 112) This was somewhat playable, but with a DM that uses you cha to gauge how NPC's react, he couldn't get anything done, and would also end up short in any in party discussions. He was a wizard with high int, who always came up with these smart plans, but nobody would listen to him. If you do any role-playing, don't dump charisma if you have any choice. Most characters are however fine with something in the 10-12 range. It's a dump stat in the sense that for a lot of characters it isn't first or second choice for their highest stats.
LCD2YOU 06-18-05, 10:37 AM	any stat can be your dump stat, depending on class and your concept of how you want the character to be played. You can play the fighter with the low strength, the mage with the average IQ and so on. I am not very fond of that myself. However, if you play a character that is obviously not made for the class you're playing, if you survive and get a reputation, it would be well deserved. As for the particular stat in this discussion, I am not sure that having a low charisma, from a DnD perspective really allows for "ugly characters". Face it, for those who been to the bars, social settings with lots of people, etc., the good looking guy, no matter if he is a real *****hole, will attract the women. Even if he's an uncouth lout, more than just a few women would find him to be a "fixer upper" and try to do just that. Also, for the males here, how many times have you said "No" to a very pretty girl or beautiful woman that you know is a ditz when she's asked you to do something? I have been known to do that on occassion, but not as often as I should have. It burns my ***** when they ask me to do something so they can go out and have a great time with their boyfriend/husband. As the line from what I believe the play "A street car named desire" said, "For a brief time, a beautiful lady is the equal of kings", or something like that. So, if they want to play a pretty or handsome character with a low charisma, make sure they have at least an above average, 13+, charisma score. If not, you may wish to seperate their charisma into two parts like I posted earlier.
JStegmaier 06-18-05, 11:09 AM	So, if they want to play a pretty or handsome character with a low charisma, make sure they have at least an above average, 13+, charisma score. If not, you may wish to seperate their charisma into two parts like I posted earlier. Instead of dividing charisma into "Looks" and "Personality," as you talked about before, I think it would be better to simply divorce the idea of looks from charisma altogether. Simply add another stat (though this would almost definitely be the least important one from the standpoint of min/maxing or powergaming, but could be important for the roleplaying side of things [please don't read into that that min/maxing and powergaming are mutually exclusive from roleplaying, as they most assuredly are not.]) Charisma is, simply, what you call "Personality" or, rather, your "force of personality"--exactly what it is used for by the classes that call for it. A sorcerer's power, after all, is most definitely not based on the character's natural beauty. Therefore, I believe leaving charisma as it is would be fine. Then, you could add the new stat, which you call "Looks," but what has been referred to as Comeliness in previous editions of the game (I believe it was first introduced in the original, 1st Edition, Unearthed Arcana--though I'm far from absolutely sure.) As you said, first impression would be aided more by a person's looks than personality (perhaps initial attitudes in some cases, where the NPCs may automatically shift, at least temporarily, like the Intimidate skill, toward a friendlier attitude. This wouldn't apply all the time--obviously, if someone is hostile, your good looks aren't likely to change his attitude, but if someone's indifferent, looks may make him be a bit more favorable toward you.) Also, it would be important to remember that what is considered "good looking" would not only change from culture to culture, but also race to race. It is unlikely that a kobold or bugbear would agree with an elf or human about what features are attractive or even pleasant. Meanwhile, as you said, good looking people, even if they have no personality, tend to get their way more often than plain people with no personality. To represent that, perhaps a character would get a partial bonus based on his comeliness score to charisma-based skills. Even that bonus, however, would have to situational, as, just as with the initial reactions point above, among different races comeliness might not work as well, not to mention there are people like me who actually like attractive people less when they try to use their looks to make up for a lack of personality or intelligence (or both.) Essentially, seperating the attribute into two parts can add to the simulation of reality in the game, and make it easier to have a "pretty or handsome character with a low charisma," as you say. However, it would also require a lot of rulings on the DM's part for almost all situations involving charisma.
SilverFoxKnows 06-18-05, 02:00 PM	I've gotten some use out of Cha + Intimidate. I'm playing a Dwarven Barbarian 6 (his disciplined Fighter family sees him as an unruly hick) with a Cha 13 and 6 or 7 ranks in Intimidate. It doesn't always work on the leaders of the local gangs but it usually does on the lowly gang members we keep getting mobbed by. I also try to come up with good threats before I make the Intimidate roll. "I'm gonna pluck your head like a piece of fruit". "I may not be able to kill all of you but I guarantee I'll kill YOU". - This one worked, he held back while the others rushed in. Anything that buys me a round or two when we're outnumbered is fine by me. As to Cha being tied to looks, just look at Gen. Patton or Adolph Hitler. Not good looking guys by any stretch of the imagination. But people listened to them. Pairs Hilton or Janis Joplin, who had the higher Cha score?
LCD2YOU 06-18-05, 05:38 PM	As to Cha being tied to looks, just look at Gen. Patton or Adolph Hitler. Not good looking guys by any stretch of the imagination. But people listened to them. Pairs Hilton or Janis Joplin, who had the higher Cha score? All true but there's this consideration: While General Patton and Hitler were not good looking guys, it took some time to get to know them and admire them, well you know what I mean. If either were to go into a bar and start picking up chicks, they will have an issue. So back to Joplin and Hilton. If I was in a bar and one of them approached me, I react differently. Joplin looked like a skank, I'd be polite, not much more. Hilton could take me home for the night. (Okay, maybe Joplin if I drank her pretty, it had been a while and it was after 2:00am). Now if I was in an enviroment like work, Joplin would be a good friend of mine while Hilton would be one of those women you'd like to take home for the night but not listen to a word they said. Unfortunately, the Charisma rules don't work like that.
Koga:The ninja trick 06-19-05, 10:31 PM	But, IMC, you'd be totally unable to be well, anything with 3 cha. Because you either are too shy and sullen to talk to someone or when you do, you are so tactless and offensive that they never want to talk to you again. Sounds like The Koga, and he manages.. :P