Cheaters never prosper. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cheaters never prosper. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scizerus
04-07-06, 08:14 PM My DM is retarted and doesn't keep track of die rolls, one of my friends scores crits damn near every roll. odd. so I watched him. Last time I checked a 7 is not a critical. what do I do. The game just isn't fun anymore.
shadowfox628
04-07-06, 08:19 PM First, talk to your friend. Explain that, well, rolls aren't always important. If it doesn't stop, tell the DM. If the DM refuses to do something about it, threaten to quit. If no changes are made, quit.

However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks.
Scizerus
04-07-06, 08:28 PM Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact. I guess I just hate my group and want to quit but dont want anyone to take it personally.(even though it is)
Vestigial_Thumb
04-07-06, 08:31 PM I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks.
Explain.
ghost_image
04-07-06, 08:51 PM However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks.

Explain.

When you roll a crit, it doesnt matter how high the AC youre rolling against is, if you fail the conformation of a crit, it's just a normal attack. Unless you were wondering how the rogue could have an 11-20/x2 crit, if so, never mind.
Molitor
04-07-06, 08:52 PM Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact.
Well let me shed some light on the topic of dice. I own some 20siders and they are marked with 0-9 twice, although half of the numbers have a '+' infront of the number meaning you would add ten to the number. Example a '7' would just be a seven, but a '+7' would be a seventeen. Perhaps this is the reason.

Also I game with a fellow who uses a 20sider with 0-9 printed twice on it, but he blacked with crayon 1 set of 0-9. So now when he rolls a blackened 3 it's actually 13.

Understand? I'm not saying this is happening in your game, but it might be. :confused:
J-Kama-Ka-C
04-07-06, 08:55 PM Almost, a possibly crit doesn't necessarily hit. Only natural 20 is a garaunteed hit, rolling 19+4 on your sword isn't going to hit AC 25, even if there's a chance you might confirm that crit if you roll.
shadowfox628
04-07-06, 10:10 PM Explain.

It was a while ago... I know I had Improved Critical, and it was Keen... So far, normal range is 18-20... Improved Crit moves it to 15-20... Keen increases it to 12-20.... Of, and the DM house ruled that the Laminate upgrade can be used on Piercing weapons, making it 11-20/X2.
shadowfox628
04-07-06, 10:13 PM Almost, a possibly crit doesn't necessarily hit. Only natural 20 is a garaunteed hit, rolling 19+4 on your sword isn't going to hit AC 25, even if there's a chance you might confirm that crit if you roll.

If the d20 lands in the threat range, it's a hit... No questions about it. The second roll is to determine if you deal extra damage, in which you have to surpass the enemy's AC... Also, there's an optional third roll. If you roll a crit on you extra damage roll, then you roll a third time. If that roll is a crit, then it's instant death... Again, it's optional (somewhere in the DM's Guide), but it's cool to know (in my opinion).
DaMullet
04-07-06, 10:18 PM I always thought that 'in the range' was just a threat for bonues damage, whereas Natural 20 was a fluke drop in defense by your opponent.

And ShadowFox, Keen doesn't stack with Improved Crit (though it may have been in 3.0 or your DM may have had a house-rule, in which case nevermind.)

The highest crit range I've ever been able to get was 15-20 using a Keen rapier.

If Keen stacked with improved crit it would've been 9-20. I can see why they don't stack.

EDIT: Aha! Just found it.

Increased Threat Range:
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
shadowfox628
04-07-06, 10:23 PM I always thought that 'in the range' was just a threat for bonues damage, whereas Natural 20 was a fluke drop in defense by your opponent.

And ShadowFox, Keen doesn't stack with Improved Crit (though it may have been in 3.0 or your DM may have had a house-rule, in which case nevermind.)

The highest crit range I've ever been able to get was 15-20 using a Keen rapier.

If Keen stacked with improved crit it would've been 9-20. I can see why they don't stack.

... And I just learned that... I learned on 3.0, and I'm fairly new to 3.5 myself... I should watch out for those things. Thanks for pointing that out. Well, my DM approved of the threat range, but... I'll tell him. Again, thanks for pointing out my mistake.

But, just to say, in 3.0, the combined effects of Keen and Improved Critical tripled the threat range instead of... Well, it tripled the threat range, which made the Rapier a very deadly weapon alone (12-20/x2). I miss those days... And I'll have to watch out for that in the future.
shadowfox628
04-07-06, 10:33 PM "Originally Posted by D20 SRD
Increased Threat Range:
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat."

But wait, the PHB explains that a Critical hit is just naturally rolling within the threat range.
"To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat (usually 20 on an attack roll), and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll)." -p. 306, PHB, 3.5-

What the SRD is saying is, well, "screw anything below a 20."

Edit: .... I really should have checked Threat Range before hand...
DarkRhystar
04-07-06, 11:00 PM Perhaps things are already cleared up, perhaps they're murky. Here's a concise version of how it works.

If you roll a 20, you automatically hit (and threaten a critical).

If you roll less than a 20, you don't automatically hit. Your attack roll must still beat the defender's AC.

If you roll within your Critical Threat Range and also score a hit (by beating the defender's AC), you Threaten a Critical.

If you Threaten a Critical and miss on your Confirmation roll, you make your attack as normal. If you Confirm the critical, you make a critical hit.

Note that for the purposes of a Confirmation roll, 20 is not an automatic hit which means that any enemy which may only be hit on a natural 20 as an automatic hit rather than beating its AC cannot be the subject of a critical hit.
allenchan
04-08-06, 12:14 AM Edit: .... I really should have checked Threat Range before hand...

...Genius.
Mist of Shadows
04-08-06, 12:51 AM Scizerus
Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact. I guess I just hate my group and want to quit but dont want anyone to take it personally.(even though it is)

This is what I would do. Hey Joe (insert name of player) is that a seven or a seventeen? I the numbers are pertty small. I would just ask loud enough to hear. This shows that you're watching and gives the guy a chance to explain what he is doing. (on the off chance that something is legit.) It allows him a graceful exit and lets him know that you are going to keep him honest from now on. Start rolling in the middle of the table as an example. Talk to him about it afterwards if things don't work out. Start reading off his die rolls before he says what they are. Sound excided or disapointed on his behalf. But just slight in the currect numbers pretty soon he should fall into line. If not bring it up to the dm's attention.
Nom
04-08-06, 01:33 AM Note that for the purposes of a Confirmation roll, 20 is not an automatic hit which means that any enemy which may only be hit on a natural 20 as an automatic hit rather than beating its AC cannot be the subject of a critical hit.Can you provide any rules evidence for this?

PH pg 134: A natural 20 (on an attack roll) is always a hit.

PH pg 140: To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attach roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.

Given that a critical roll is an attack roll and a natural 20 on an attack roll is a always a hit, it seems to follow that a natural 20 on a critical roll is a hit ... just as it is on any other attack roll.
SuperTKO
04-08-06, 01:36 AM First, talk to your friend. Explain that, well, rolls aren't always important. If it doesn't stop, tell the DM. If the DM refuses to do something about it, threaten to quit. If no changes are made, quit.

However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks.

I take it this a 3.0 game, when Stuff that threatened stacked?
kelvinaw273
04-08-06, 03:10 AM If your player is detirmined to cheat on his dice rolls (he may get very offended if you call him on it), and the Dm is detirmined to do nothing about it ... there's not a whole lot you can do. I suggest that you try talking to him privately about it, if he gets offended drop the subject but talk to your DM, and the other players. You may find many of them share your opinions, and many together can achieve more than one alone. Easiest way out is to make sure all player rolls are on the table in the open with clearly marked dice.

Now, if your other players aren't interested, and your DM thinks it is too much trouble, that is the time to quit. If people tell you why explain that the style of play just does not suit you (if you don't want to offend anyone), or just say that all the cheating some players are doing on their dice rolls is frankly making you sick (if you don't care what they think).

At the end of the day somebody who cheats on their dice rolls isn't achieving anything; usually they are doing so as a kind of one-upmanship on the rest of the players. As such, the rest of the players usually get pretty fed up with it, so I don't think you'll lack supporters. If all the players go to the DM and declare they are fed up with player X for cheating, the DM can insist rolls are made in the open or risk losing all his players.

Or maybe you could try DMing yourself ...
DarkRhystar
04-08-06, 03:29 AM Can you provide any rules evidence for this?

PH pg 134: A natural 20 (on an attack roll) is always a hit.

PH pg 140: To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attach roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.

Given that a critical roll is an attack roll and a natural 20 on an attack roll is a always a hit, it seems to follow that a natural 20 on a critical roll is a hit ... just as it is on any other attack roll.

Let's preface this with: Interpretation is everything. Keep that in mind.

The confirmation roll is a Critical Roll. The details after that describe how it is calculated and though it is calculated as an attack roll, it's still a Critical Roll. If it were another attack roll then why wouldn't it say, "To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a second attack roll?" Rather it specifically calls it a Critical Roll. And when I make a Critical Roll, there is no such thing as a natural 20. Unless there was meant to be a difference between a Critical Roll and an Attack Roll, there would be no logical reason to have it be named differently. Albeit infering logic in D&D is not the most solid grounds for a debate, that's exactly what I'm doing.

This is my reasoning behind my belief. Agree or disagree, either suits me fine. If you prefer to play where one may roll a natural 20 on a Critical Roll, that's fine too. I don't make a practice of telling people how to play their games. I hope this answered your question. :)
Bulletproof_Condom
04-08-06, 03:51 AM I would just like to point out that your DM can't be "retarted" because that's not a word. He might be "retarded," i.e. suffering from mental retardation, but unless he's been tarted before, he can't be tarted again.

And yeah, tell the DM or quit.
green_yawgmoth
04-08-06, 01:06 PM If the d20 lands in the threat range, it's a hit... No questions about it. The second roll is to determine if you deal extra damage, in which you have to surpass the enemy's AC... Also, there's an optional third roll. If you roll a crit on you extra damage roll, then you roll a third time. If that roll is a crit, then it's instant death... Again, it's optional (somewhere in the DM's Guide), but it's cool to know (in my opinion).
Wrong. Only a natural 20 is a guaranteed hit. Anything else is just a potential crit, provided you can hit. If you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine; just watch out for the disciple of dispater/weapons master with the 4-20 crit range.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
shadowfox628
04-08-06, 06:32 PM I take it this a 3.0 game, when Stuff that threatened stacked?

A mix of 3.0 and 3.5. I'm used to the 3.0 rules, so I make mistakes when it comes to this sort of thing. The DM's the same way, and prefers a lot of things that way they were in 3.0 (took me a while to tell him that, theoretically, a 3.5 Monk is better in combat at high levels than a 3.0 Monk).

As for the "idiot" comment, I'm used to playing the way I learned. People make mistakes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scizerus 04-07-06, 08:14 PM	My DM is retarted and doesn't keep track of die rolls, one of my friends scores crits damn near every roll. odd. so I watched him. Last time I checked a 7 is not a critical. what do I do. The game just isn't fun anymore.
shadowfox628 04-07-06, 08:19 PM	First, talk to your friend. Explain that, well, rolls aren't always important. If it doesn't stop, tell the DM. If the DM refuses to do something about it, threaten to quit. If no changes are made, quit. However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks.
Scizerus 04-07-06, 08:28 PM	Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact. I guess I just hate my group and want to quit but dont want anyone to take it personally.(even though it is)
Vestigial_Thumb 04-07-06, 08:31 PM	I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks. Explain.
ghost_image 04-07-06, 08:51 PM	However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks. Explain. When you roll a crit, it doesnt matter how high the AC youre rolling against is, if you fail the conformation of a crit, it's just a normal attack. Unless you were wondering how the rogue could have an 11-20/x2 crit, if so, never mind.
Molitor 04-07-06, 08:52 PM	Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact. Well let me shed some light on the topic of dice. I own some 20siders and they are marked with 0-9 twice, although half of the numbers have a '+' infront of the number meaning you would add ten to the number. Example a '7' would just be a seven, but a '+7' would be a seventeen. Perhaps this is the reason. Also I game with a fellow who uses a 20sider with 0-9 printed twice on it, but he blacked with crayon 1 set of 0-9. So now when he rolls a blackened 3 it's actually 13. Understand? I'm not saying this is happening in your game, but it might be. :confused:
J-Kama-Ka-C 04-07-06, 08:55 PM	Almost, a possibly crit doesn't necessarily hit. Only natural 20 is a garaunteed hit, rolling 19+4 on your sword isn't going to hit AC 25, even if there's a chance you might confirm that crit if you roll.
shadowfox628 04-07-06, 10:10 PM	Explain. It was a while ago... I know I had Improved Critical, and it was Keen... So far, normal range is 18-20... Improved Crit moves it to 15-20... Keen increases it to 12-20.... Of, and the DM house ruled that the Laminate upgrade can be used on Piercing weapons, making it 11-20/X2.
shadowfox628 04-07-06, 10:13 PM	Almost, a possibly crit doesn't necessarily hit. Only natural 20 is a garaunteed hit, rolling 19+4 on your sword isn't going to hit AC 25, even if there's a chance you might confirm that crit if you roll. If the d20 lands in the threat range, it's a hit... No questions about it. The second roll is to determine if you deal extra damage, in which you have to surpass the enemy's AC... Also, there's an optional third roll. If you roll a crit on you extra damage roll, then you roll a third time. If that roll is a crit, then it's instant death... Again, it's optional (somewhere in the DM's Guide), but it's cool to know (in my opinion).
DaMullet 04-07-06, 10:18 PM	I always thought that 'in the range' was just a threat for bonues damage, whereas Natural 20 was a fluke drop in defense by your opponent. And ShadowFox, Keen doesn't stack with Improved Crit (though it may have been in 3.0 or your DM may have had a house-rule, in which case nevermind.) The highest crit range I've ever been able to get was 15-20 using a Keen rapier. If Keen stacked with improved crit it would've been 9-20. I can see why they don't stack. EDIT: Aha! Just found it. Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
shadowfox628 04-07-06, 10:23 PM	I always thought that 'in the range' was just a threat for bonues damage, whereas Natural 20 was a fluke drop in defense by your opponent. And ShadowFox, Keen doesn't stack with Improved Crit (though it may have been in 3.0 or your DM may have had a house-rule, in which case nevermind.) The highest crit range I've ever been able to get was 15-20 using a Keen rapier. If Keen stacked with improved crit it would've been 9-20. I can see why they don't stack. ... And I just learned that... I learned on 3.0, and I'm fairly new to 3.5 myself... I should watch out for those things. Thanks for pointing that out. Well, my DM approved of the threat range, but... I'll tell him. Again, thanks for pointing out my mistake. But, just to say, in 3.0, the combined effects of Keen and Improved Critical tripled the threat range instead of... Well, it tripled the threat range, which made the Rapier a very deadly weapon alone (12-20/x2). I miss those days... And I'll have to watch out for that in the future.
shadowfox628 04-07-06, 10:33 PM	"Originally Posted by D20 SRD Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat." But wait, the PHB explains that a Critical hit is just naturally rolling within the threat range. "To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat (usually 20 on an attack roll), and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll)." -p. 306, PHB, 3.5- What the SRD is saying is, well, "screw anything below a 20." Edit: .... I really should have checked Threat Range before hand...
DarkRhystar 04-07-06, 11:00 PM	Perhaps things are already cleared up, perhaps they're murky. Here's a concise version of how it works. If you roll a 20, you automatically hit (and threaten a critical). If you roll less than a 20, you don't automatically hit. Your attack roll must still beat the defender's AC. If you roll within your Critical Threat Range and also score a hit (by beating the defender's AC), you Threaten a Critical. If you Threaten a Critical and miss on your Confirmation roll, you make your attack as normal. If you Confirm the critical, you make a critical hit. Note that for the purposes of a Confirmation roll, 20 is not an automatic hit which means that any enemy which may only be hit on a natural 20 as an automatic hit rather than beating its AC cannot be the subject of a critical hit.
allenchan 04-08-06, 12:14 AM	Edit: .... I really should have checked Threat Range before hand... ...Genius.
Mist of Shadows 04-08-06, 12:51 AM	Scizerus Yeah, but his threat range is 17-20 I know for a fact. I guess I just hate my group and want to quit but dont want anyone to take it personally.(even though it is) This is what I would do. Hey Joe (insert name of player) is that a seven or a seventeen? I the numbers are pertty small. I would just ask loud enough to hear. This shows that you're watching and gives the guy a chance to explain what he is doing. (on the off chance that something is legit.) It allows him a graceful exit and lets him know that you are going to keep him honest from now on. Start rolling in the middle of the table as an example. Talk to him about it afterwards if things don't work out. Start reading off his die rolls before he says what they are. Sound excided or disapointed on his behalf. But just slight in the currect numbers pretty soon he should fall into line. If not bring it up to the dm's attention.
Nom 04-08-06, 01:33 AM	Note that for the purposes of a Confirmation roll, 20 is not an automatic hit which means that any enemy which may only be hit on a natural 20 as an automatic hit rather than beating its AC cannot be the subject of a critical hit.Can you provide any rules evidence for this? PH pg 134: A natural 20 (on an attack roll) is always a hit. PH pg 140: To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attach roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. Given that a critical roll is an attack roll and a natural 20 on an attack roll is a always a hit, it seems to follow that a natural 20 on a critical roll is a hit ... just as it is on any other attack roll.
SuperTKO 04-08-06, 01:36 AM	First, talk to your friend. Explain that, well, rolls aren't always important. If it doesn't stop, tell the DM. If the DM refuses to do something about it, threaten to quit. If no changes are made, quit. However, there are ways to have an insane Threat Range. I've made a Rogue, gave him a Rapier, and, basically, did everything to increase the Threat Range. It ended up that the Threat Range was 11-20/X2, meaning, theoretically, 50% of all attacks will be instant attacks. I take it this a 3.0 game, when Stuff that threatened stacked?
kelvinaw273 04-08-06, 03:10 AM	If your player is detirmined to cheat on his dice rolls (he may get very offended if you call him on it), and the Dm is detirmined to do nothing about it ... there's not a whole lot you can do. I suggest that you try talking to him privately about it, if he gets offended drop the subject but talk to your DM, and the other players. You may find many of them share your opinions, and many together can achieve more than one alone. Easiest way out is to make sure all player rolls are on the table in the open with clearly marked dice. Now, if your other players aren't interested, and your DM thinks it is too much trouble, that is the time to quit. If people tell you why explain that the style of play just does not suit you (if you don't want to offend anyone), or just say that all the cheating some players are doing on their dice rolls is frankly making you sick (if you don't care what they think). At the end of the day somebody who cheats on their dice rolls isn't achieving anything; usually they are doing so as a kind of one-upmanship on the rest of the players. As such, the rest of the players usually get pretty fed up with it, so I don't think you'll lack supporters. If all the players go to the DM and declare they are fed up with player X for cheating, the DM can insist rolls are made in the open or risk losing all his players. Or maybe you could try DMing yourself ...
DarkRhystar 04-08-06, 03:29 AM	Can you provide any rules evidence for this? PH pg 134: A natural 20 (on an attack roll) is always a hit. PH pg 140: To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attach roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. Given that a critical roll is an attack roll and a natural 20 on an attack roll is a always a hit, it seems to follow that a natural 20 on a critical roll is a hit ... just as it is on any other attack roll. Let's preface this with: Interpretation is everything. Keep that in mind. The confirmation roll is a Critical Roll. The details after that describe how it is calculated and though it is calculated as an attack roll, it's still a Critical Roll. If it were another attack roll then why wouldn't it say, "To find out if it's a hit, you immediately make a second attack roll?" Rather it specifically calls it a Critical Roll. And when I make a Critical Roll, there is no such thing as a natural 20. Unless there was meant to be a difference between a Critical Roll and an Attack Roll, there would be no logical reason to have it be named differently. Albeit infering logic in D&D is not the most solid grounds for a debate, that's exactly what I'm doing. This is my reasoning behind my belief. Agree or disagree, either suits me fine. If you prefer to play where one may roll a natural 20 on a Critical Roll, that's fine too. I don't make a practice of telling people how to play their games. I hope this answered your question. :)
Bulletproof_Condom 04-08-06, 03:51 AM	I would just like to point out that your DM can't be "retarted" because that's not a word. He might be "retarded," i.e. suffering from mental retardation, but unless he's been tarted before, he can't be tarted again. And yeah, tell the DM or quit.
green_yawgmoth 04-08-06, 01:06 PM	If the d20 lands in the threat range, it's a hit... No questions about it. The second roll is to determine if you deal extra damage, in which you have to surpass the enemy's AC... Also, there's an optional third roll. If you roll a crit on you extra damage roll, then you roll a third time. If that roll is a crit, then it's instant death... Again, it's optional (somewhere in the DM's Guide), but it's cool to know (in my opinion). Wrong. Only a natural 20 is a guaranteed hit. Anything else is just a potential crit, provided you can hit. If you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine; just watch out for the disciple of dispater/weapons master with the 4-20 crit range. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
shadowfox628 04-08-06, 06:32 PM	I take it this a 3.0 game, when Stuff that threatened stacked? A mix of 3.0 and 3.5. I'm used to the 3.0 rules, so I make mistakes when it comes to this sort of thing. The DM's the same way, and prefers a lot of things that way they were in 3.0 (took me a while to tell him that, theoretically, a 3.5 Monk is better in combat at high levels than a 3.0 Monk). As for the "idiot" comment, I'm used to playing the way I learned. People make mistakes.