Checkmate [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Checkmate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Qlawdatt
12-07-07, 09:15 AM So a friend of mine is about to DM, and so far he has told us the following; We will be starting at lvl 9, just about any book we can think of allowed. And for out first adventure we will be playing a chess match against the Chanturani from dragon magazine #358. So I am looking for some advice on what to play. It will be a lot of one on one combat, against constructs.

For those of you who don't know the chanturani are a group of constructs from mechanis that have a special minor artifact board that forces you to obey the rules of chess. So one turn moves, and if a piece were to take another piece they instead enter combat, with the attacking piece taking initiative. So any help would be appreciated.
T_Stalker
12-07-07, 10:12 AM Play a rogue, get an item of Golem Strike, maximize Sleight of Hand and Bluff.
Cheat your way out of the game.

Rogue: "Hmmmm ... that's a good move you made there my metal man, however it's no match fo- OMG, is that a w- *swaps pieces around* oh, never mind, it's just the spiders in my head. Ha! There, check and mate."
Dog_O_War
12-07-07, 11:12 AM Play a rogue, get an item of Golem Strike, maximize Sleight of Hand and Bluff.
Cheat your way out of the game.

Rogue: "Hmmmm ... that's a good move you made there my metal man, however it's no match fo- OMG, is that a w- *swaps pieces around* oh, never mind, it's just the spiders in my head. Ha! There, check and mate."

He said it was a minor artifact board.

You cannot bluff objects; the pieces will remain where they were placed. That and there is a magical compulsion effect forcing you to not cheat.

Play a Gnome Ranger, specialized in construct warfare. Combat trapsmith would be a perfect prestige class for you (I think it's in Complete Scoundrel).
runestar
12-07-07, 11:28 AM One is a build focusing on one-hit kills. Since attackers automatically win initiative, maybe some barb leap attacking+power attack+shock trooper charging build to kill it ASAP before it has the opportunity to retaliate. Throw in robilar's gambit or karmic strike maybe, so that when they do hit you, you hit them back twice as hard.
Belkar
12-07-07, 11:43 AM Ranged Combat is the way to go. No matter where you are "on the board", you can attack a target in line of sight.

Make a Ranger (Favored Enemy, Constructs)/Scout

Pick up Swift Hunter, and Greater Manyshot (from XPH; lets you make separate attack rolls for each arrow - thus both arrows recieved precision damage) at 6th level, and get a magical composite longbow to match your Str... and use your 9th level starting gp to also buy the weapon crystal from MIC that lets you precision damage constructs.

Move... shoot 2 arrows at a guy for 2d8+6d6+2xStr+8(fav enemy).
Qlawdatt
12-07-07, 12:13 PM Ok, so I have talked to the DM and have gotten some rules clarifications

*You can only move as the piece you are assigned to be.
*There are no spells or buffs allowed to be on any character before the game
*You cannot cast spells on allies.
*You can only interact with the unit you are attacking or being attacked by.
*In order to attack a piece you would have to be able to take their piece with yours as in real chess.
*Attackers win init
*lets say your character is on of the rooks and you declare that you are attacking the pawn five squares in front of you; you have initiated combat between your piece and theirs. You can attack from where you were. If you attack from a range they have to move to where your piece is to attack, unless they also have ranged attacks. When combat is resolved between the two pieces the winner moves to the square of the attacked piece (in this case where the pawn was).
Belkar
12-07-07, 03:37 PM Yuck.

Okay...

Go for a two-handed smasher build with the best damage dealing weapons you can afford.

It also sounds like you'll be in situations where you'll be able to easily take a full-round attack - especially if you're on the defensive. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like if an enemy piece moves to you to attack, it initiates "combat" and you fight a round-by-round combat until sombody drops?

Well, if you're defending, you pretty much don't have to move (if they're melee attacking you), so you can easily get in multiple attacks on a full round action.

Build a two-weapon fighter build - better yet... a monk that emphasizes flurry of blows. Can you grapple? How is he handling grappling? Or bull-rushing? Can you charge?
Qlawdatt
12-07-07, 04:28 PM Yuck.

It also sounds like you'll be in situations where you'll be able to easily take a full-round attack - especially if you're on the defensive. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like if an enemy piece moves to you to attack, it initiates "combat" and you fight a round-by-round combat until sombody drops?

Yeah thats how I under stand it. However its still chess, so if my character is just sitting there killing anything that attacks it I wont be attacked. So I will have to be able to be defensive and offensive. Seeing as the attacker wins init automatically I could just start with a full attack probably.
PollyOliver
12-07-07, 06:06 PM Do you know what piece you'll be? Because that limits your options. As a bishop, rook, or queen you can easily go with a ranged attack because you can attack from the far corner of the board if you want to (though if they attack you, it may be up close). If you're a knight, a pawn, or the king, though, you're going to be at much closer range to your opponents, even when you attack them, and might want to think about other options.

Also, as I'm doubting that there are sixteen of you, who's controlling the pawns? Because how you move them is going to be instrumental in controlling how your opponents come at you. If the DM is doing it, you can't really count on any advantage there, but if you're controlling them you've essentially got mobile cover blocking other constructs from attacking you, or setting up situations in which the only thing they can do is either wait for you to attack or fight one of your pawns, take damage, and then move into a space in which you can attack them and gain initiative. If you control the pawns, you can afford for your build to be more fragile in terms of HP, and you can count on initiative more often, especially in the early game. If he does, you might want to make sure you're able to take more hits, and don't count so much on getting that first hit in.
Qlawdatt
12-07-07, 07:26 PM We will be in control of our pawns and other pieces. I think we will decide who is what piece the day of the game. And while a queen bishop or rook could indeed be a ranged character keep in mind that when the duel is over the winner moves to the space of the attacked piece. So a ranged character could easily be open for a counter attack. I am trying to be a little over cautious because the DM is a better chess player then probably my whole group combined.
Sinfire Titan
12-07-07, 08:02 PM Crusader/Warblade, focus on Stone Dragon maneuvers and Devoted Spirit shenanigans. Seriously, why hasn't anyone said this? If you don't have the Tome of Battle, get a copy ASAP!
Qlawdatt
12-07-07, 08:48 PM Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine?
Salla
12-07-07, 09:19 PM Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine?

That's the nice thing about the ToB; it's relatively idiot-proof, as they say. It's difficult to make a useless character out of the ToB.

Just pick up Power Attack and some Stone Dragon moves that ignore DR, maybe Stormguard Warrior and be ready to go to town. :)
Sinfire Titan
12-07-07, 11:40 PM Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine?

Warblade: Iron Heart. It is the single best school they have access to, tied only with the Diamond Mind. This is due to the Avalanche of Blades/Stormguard combo. Yes, hitting with 10 touch attacks in one full attack is wrong. And yes, following it up with the Time Stands Still maneuver will kill someone. Usually them. That is at 17th level, though. 9th, Focus on those two styles, and White Raven if possible.

Crusader 9, is a whole different story. Max out the HP, take Stone Power, and make it an Adamantine ex-Warforged Dragonborn for some serious tanking power. All it does is sit there and cocblock the enemy, for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 and 1/4 days a year.
Cherrn
12-08-07, 12:02 AM Play as the Knight piece, and go read a chess-book. If you play with the rules of a real chess game, then there's a couple of ways in which you can win the game within 3-5 moves, and in your case, only having to win 2 fights :P

Bring him down like a house of cards! Checkmate!
Positronica
12-08-07, 01:17 AM Will the stats on each piece reset after each fight, or will buffs and damage carry over from move to move? Also, are all of his pieces equally challenging to defeat, or are pawns easier targets? If effects do carry over, and if pawns are easy kills, than you can counter your DM's chess prowess simply by employing strategies that wouldn't work in normal chess. Build characters that are highly defensive, even if it means they don't have the power to defeat more than just a pawn. Then focus solely on trying to thin out the board. Target only pawns, and then during the fight with the pawn make sure you buff up defensively so that whatever pieces he had defending the pawns won't be able to dislodge you during a counter attack. Once all his pawns are out of the way, you'll have a much easier time boxing in his king. As long as your pieces are strong defensively, you'll be able to move into positions that would be suicide in regular chess, but perfectly safe in this game. All of your DMs chess acumen will be for naught if you just throw all normal chess strategy out the window.
Krusk
12-08-07, 02:33 AM If movement is almost not considered, why not actually play a dwarven defender? Its not a bad class if you can get around the movement restriction and in this from what i can gather you wont be needing to move.

Do Tob for the ignore DR on constructs for a bit and then take Dwarven defender as soon as you can.
metalmayhem80110
12-08-07, 05:04 AM Why not go cleric?

Just focus 90% of your spells on buff spells, and buff yourself up. This way you'll be a scary oppenent in each of your 1 on 1s.

Also, you'd be able to heal yourself! Which seems rather important in this case...
kelvinaw273
12-08-07, 08:29 AM How about a reach weapon specialist? That way you get the first attack through AoOs even if they get initiative - that makes you a dangerous opponent. The classic spiked chain wielder might work rather well, especially if combined with heavy armour to boost that AC and a decent missile weapon in case of missile attackers (thrown weapons would do, especially if you have high strength and take Brutal Throw).

Straight spellcasters like a wizard or sorcerer would not be a good option because (a) you can be worn down over the length of the game by being forced to expend your spells and (b) your defence will depend on buffs, and as your foes may be melee specialists who attack you in melee and get initiative, well ... it could get messy. I'm not saying there aren't some builds that would work, but in general build your casters carefully.
Kalai_Eljahn
12-08-07, 09:02 AM Wow - first thought on reading this set-up, after 'fascinating', is 'initiative doesn't matter!'

So, first thing, dump initiative. Fair obvious.

Next thought: Dude...you can make horrible moves and win. Optimize and play risky. 'Sacrifice' pieces who are likely to win combat. Don't beat 'em at chess, beat 'em at D&D.

The idea of invisible pieces intrigues me, somehow. Probably not even close to optimized, but at low/mid levels I can see Warlocks with Walk Unseen getting checkmate without making a single attack or opponents knowing where they are. Not certain if possible, but I'd love to play my warlock as a knight. Dimension door gets around the icky problems of moving through someone else's space, Fell Flight might be interesting (if allowed) to make the game three-dimensional...she already plays like a knight, really. Horrible at defending anyone but great with stealth, tight places, and 'jump' equivalents.
Qlawdatt
12-08-07, 11:28 AM Well buffs do last, however you have to cast them after the game has started and when your piece is being moved. Also time still passes while other pieces are moving and in combat, so you would really have to use 10 min/level or longer buffs. Reach weapons and what not are all a good idea. I have been leaning towards a warblade. I might try to pick up leap attack and just try to kill things in one or two rounds.

The dwarven defender is a decent idea, but you couldnt attack, and after one pawn gets slaughtered I doubt I would see much more combat.

Well from looking at the dragon magazine in question the pawns are much weaker then the higher pieces.

Because two pieces keep fighting until one wins, being able to delay and having some sort of reusable healing item might be a good idea.

The queen piece has permenent freedom of movement up, so can't really grapple her. And the king and queen both have some heavy duty domination/fear abilities at will. So I should be able to make a DC22-24 will save.
ff6shadow
12-08-07, 12:08 PM Definetly sounds like a Crusader moment. You have reusable healing and Charisma to Will saves. Maybe splash Warblade in for Iron Heart Surge and Momnet of Perfect Mind
Qlawdatt
12-08-07, 06:33 PM http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10323162#post10323162

I was thinking of using the first nine levels of this build. Hows that look?
Sinfire Titan
12-08-07, 10:41 PM http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10323162#post10323162

I was thinking of using the first nine levels of this build. Hows that look?

Change a few of the maneuvers, and consider Adaptive Style. It is better than Sudden Recovery, and you can use it mid-combat to it's full effect. Sure, you lose out on a turn, but it is very much worth the loss.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Qlawdatt 12-07-07, 09:15 AM	So a friend of mine is about to DM, and so far he has told us the following; We will be starting at lvl 9, just about any book we can think of allowed. And for out first adventure we will be playing a chess match against the Chanturani from dragon magazine #358. So I am looking for some advice on what to play. It will be a lot of one on one combat, against constructs. For those of you who don't know the chanturani are a group of constructs from mechanis that have a special minor artifact board that forces you to obey the rules of chess. So one turn moves, and if a piece were to take another piece they instead enter combat, with the attacking piece taking initiative. So any help would be appreciated.
T_Stalker 12-07-07, 10:12 AM	Play a rogue, get an item of Golem Strike, maximize Sleight of Hand and Bluff. Cheat your way out of the game. Rogue: "Hmmmm ... that's a good move you made there my metal man, however it's no match fo- OMG, is that a w- swaps pieces around oh, never mind, it's just the spiders in my head. Ha! There, check and mate."
Dog_O_War 12-07-07, 11:12 AM	Play a rogue, get an item of Golem Strike, maximize Sleight of Hand and Bluff. Cheat your way out of the game. Rogue: "Hmmmm ... that's a good move you made there my metal man, however it's no match fo- OMG, is that a w- swaps pieces around oh, never mind, it's just the spiders in my head. Ha! There, check and mate." He said it was a minor artifact board. You cannot bluff objects; the pieces will remain where they were placed. That and there is a magical compulsion effect forcing you to not cheat. Play a Gnome Ranger, specialized in construct warfare. Combat trapsmith would be a perfect prestige class for you (I think it's in Complete Scoundrel).
runestar 12-07-07, 11:28 AM	One is a build focusing on one-hit kills. Since attackers automatically win initiative, maybe some barb leap attacking+power attack+shock trooper charging build to kill it ASAP before it has the opportunity to retaliate. Throw in robilar's gambit or karmic strike maybe, so that when they do hit you, you hit them back twice as hard.
Belkar 12-07-07, 11:43 AM	Ranged Combat is the way to go. No matter where you are "on the board", you can attack a target in line of sight. Make a Ranger (Favored Enemy, Constructs)/Scout Pick up Swift Hunter, and Greater Manyshot (from XPH; lets you make separate attack rolls for each arrow - thus both arrows recieved precision damage) at 6th level, and get a magical composite longbow to match your Str... and use your 9th level starting gp to also buy the weapon crystal from MIC that lets you precision damage constructs. Move... shoot 2 arrows at a guy for 2d8+6d6+2xStr+8(fav enemy).
Qlawdatt 12-07-07, 12:13 PM	Ok, so I have talked to the DM and have gotten some rules clarifications You can only move as the piece you are assigned to be. There are no spells or buffs allowed to be on any character before the game You cannot cast spells on allies. You can only interact with the unit you are attacking or being attacked by. In order to attack a piece you would have to be able to take their piece with yours as in real chess. Attackers win init *lets say your character is on of the rooks and you declare that you are attacking the pawn five squares in front of you; you have initiated combat between your piece and theirs. You can attack from where you were. If you attack from a range they have to move to where your piece is to attack, unless they also have ranged attacks. When combat is resolved between the two pieces the winner moves to the square of the attacked piece (in this case where the pawn was).
Belkar 12-07-07, 03:37 PM	Yuck. Okay... Go for a two-handed smasher build with the best damage dealing weapons you can afford. It also sounds like you'll be in situations where you'll be able to easily take a full-round attack - especially if you're on the defensive. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like if an enemy piece moves to you to attack, it initiates "combat" and you fight a round-by-round combat until sombody drops? Well, if you're defending, you pretty much don't have to move (if they're melee attacking you), so you can easily get in multiple attacks on a full round action. Build a two-weapon fighter build - better yet... a monk that emphasizes flurry of blows. Can you grapple? How is he handling grappling? Or bull-rushing? Can you charge?
Qlawdatt 12-07-07, 04:28 PM	Yuck. It also sounds like you'll be in situations where you'll be able to easily take a full-round attack - especially if you're on the defensive. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like if an enemy piece moves to you to attack, it initiates "combat" and you fight a round-by-round combat until sombody drops? Yeah thats how I under stand it. However its still chess, so if my character is just sitting there killing anything that attacks it I wont be attacked. So I will have to be able to be defensive and offensive. Seeing as the attacker wins init automatically I could just start with a full attack probably.
PollyOliver 12-07-07, 06:06 PM	Do you know what piece you'll be? Because that limits your options. As a bishop, rook, or queen you can easily go with a ranged attack because you can attack from the far corner of the board if you want to (though if they attack you, it may be up close). If you're a knight, a pawn, or the king, though, you're going to be at much closer range to your opponents, even when you attack them, and might want to think about other options. Also, as I'm doubting that there are sixteen of you, who's controlling the pawns? Because how you move them is going to be instrumental in controlling how your opponents come at you. If the DM is doing it, you can't really count on any advantage there, but if you're controlling them you've essentially got mobile cover blocking other constructs from attacking you, or setting up situations in which the only thing they can do is either wait for you to attack or fight one of your pawns, take damage, and then move into a space in which you can attack them and gain initiative. If you control the pawns, you can afford for your build to be more fragile in terms of HP, and you can count on initiative more often, especially in the early game. If he does, you might want to make sure you're able to take more hits, and don't count so much on getting that first hit in.
Qlawdatt 12-07-07, 07:26 PM	We will be in control of our pawns and other pieces. I think we will decide who is what piece the day of the game. And while a queen bishop or rook could indeed be a ranged character keep in mind that when the duel is over the winner moves to the space of the attacked piece. So a ranged character could easily be open for a counter attack. I am trying to be a little over cautious because the DM is a better chess player then probably my whole group combined.
Sinfire Titan 12-07-07, 08:02 PM	Crusader/Warblade, focus on Stone Dragon maneuvers and Devoted Spirit shenanigans. Seriously, why hasn't anyone said this? If you don't have the Tome of Battle, get a copy ASAP!
Qlawdatt 12-07-07, 08:48 PM	Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine?
Salla 12-07-07, 09:19 PM	Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine? That's the nice thing about the ToB; it's relatively idiot-proof, as they say. It's difficult to make a useless character out of the ToB. Just pick up Power Attack and some Stone Dragon moves that ignore DR, maybe Stormguard Warrior and be ready to go to town. :)
Sinfire Titan 12-07-07, 11:40 PM	Yeah I was just thinking warblade. Anyone know any good builds at level nine? Warblade: Iron Heart. It is the single best school they have access to, tied only with the Diamond Mind. This is due to the Avalanche of Blades/Stormguard combo. Yes, hitting with 10 touch attacks in one full attack is wrong. And yes, following it up with the Time Stands Still maneuver will kill someone. Usually them. That is at 17th level, though. 9th, Focus on those two styles, and White Raven if possible. Crusader 9, is a whole different story. Max out the HP, take Stone Power, and make it an Adamantine ex-Warforged Dragonborn for some serious tanking power. All it does is sit there and cocblock the enemy, for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 and 1/4 days a year.
Cherrn 12-08-07, 12:02 AM	Play as the Knight piece, and go read a chess-book. If you play with the rules of a real chess game, then there's a couple of ways in which you can win the game within 3-5 moves, and in your case, only having to win 2 fights :P Bring him down like a house of cards! Checkmate!
Positronica 12-08-07, 01:17 AM	Will the stats on each piece reset after each fight, or will buffs and damage carry over from move to move? Also, are all of his pieces equally challenging to defeat, or are pawns easier targets? If effects do carry over, and if pawns are easy kills, than you can counter your DM's chess prowess simply by employing strategies that wouldn't work in normal chess. Build characters that are highly defensive, even if it means they don't have the power to defeat more than just a pawn. Then focus solely on trying to thin out the board. Target only pawns, and then during the fight with the pawn make sure you buff up defensively so that whatever pieces he had defending the pawns won't be able to dislodge you during a counter attack. Once all his pawns are out of the way, you'll have a much easier time boxing in his king. As long as your pieces are strong defensively, you'll be able to move into positions that would be suicide in regular chess, but perfectly safe in this game. All of your DMs chess acumen will be for naught if you just throw all normal chess strategy out the window.
Krusk 12-08-07, 02:33 AM	If movement is almost not considered, why not actually play a dwarven defender? Its not a bad class if you can get around the movement restriction and in this from what i can gather you wont be needing to move. Do Tob for the ignore DR on constructs for a bit and then take Dwarven defender as soon as you can.
metalmayhem80110 12-08-07, 05:04 AM	Why not go cleric? Just focus 90% of your spells on buff spells, and buff yourself up. This way you'll be a scary oppenent in each of your 1 on 1s. Also, you'd be able to heal yourself! Which seems rather important in this case...
kelvinaw273 12-08-07, 08:29 AM	How about a reach weapon specialist? That way you get the first attack through AoOs even if they get initiative - that makes you a dangerous opponent. The classic spiked chain wielder might work rather well, especially if combined with heavy armour to boost that AC and a decent missile weapon in case of missile attackers (thrown weapons would do, especially if you have high strength and take Brutal Throw). Straight spellcasters like a wizard or sorcerer would not be a good option because (a) you can be worn down over the length of the game by being forced to expend your spells and (b) your defence will depend on buffs, and as your foes may be melee specialists who attack you in melee and get initiative, well ... it could get messy. I'm not saying there aren't some builds that would work, but in general build your casters carefully.
Kalai_Eljahn 12-08-07, 09:02 AM	Wow - first thought on reading this set-up, after 'fascinating', is 'initiative doesn't matter!' So, first thing, dump initiative. Fair obvious. Next thought: Dude...you can make horrible moves and win. Optimize and play risky. 'Sacrifice' pieces who are likely to win combat. Don't beat 'em at chess, beat 'em at D&D. The idea of invisible pieces intrigues me, somehow. Probably not even close to optimized, but at low/mid levels I can see Warlocks with Walk Unseen getting checkmate without making a single attack or opponents knowing where they are. Not certain if possible, but I'd love to play my warlock as a knight. Dimension door gets around the icky problems of moving through someone else's space, Fell Flight might be interesting (if allowed) to make the game three-dimensional...she already plays like a knight, really. Horrible at defending anyone but great with stealth, tight places, and 'jump' equivalents.
Qlawdatt 12-08-07, 11:28 AM	Well buffs do last, however you have to cast them after the game has started and when your piece is being moved. Also time still passes while other pieces are moving and in combat, so you would really have to use 10 min/level or longer buffs. Reach weapons and what not are all a good idea. I have been leaning towards a warblade. I might try to pick up leap attack and just try to kill things in one or two rounds. The dwarven defender is a decent idea, but you couldnt attack, and after one pawn gets slaughtered I doubt I would see much more combat. Well from looking at the dragon magazine in question the pawns are much weaker then the higher pieces. Because two pieces keep fighting until one wins, being able to delay and having some sort of reusable healing item might be a good idea. The queen piece has permenent freedom of movement up, so can't really grapple her. And the king and queen both have some heavy duty domination/fear abilities at will. So I should be able to make a DC22-24 will save.
ff6shadow 12-08-07, 12:08 PM	Definetly sounds like a Crusader moment. You have reusable healing and Charisma to Will saves. Maybe splash Warblade in for Iron Heart Surge and Momnet of Perfect Mind
Qlawdatt 12-08-07, 06:33 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10323162#post10323162 I was thinking of using the first nine levels of this build. Hows that look?
Sinfire Titan 12-08-07, 10:41 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10323162#post10323162 I was thinking of using the first nine levels of this build. Hows that look? Change a few of the maneuvers, and consider Adaptive Style. It is better than Sudden Recovery, and you can use it mid-combat to it's full effect. Sure, you lose out on a turn, but it is very much worth the loss.