Post/Author/DateTime	Post
whitishknight 09-09-06, 06:26 PM	Hi, I'm new to the board, but I was thinking about playing a Dread Necromancer. Other then the Child Necromancer feat from the Tome of Necromancy thread on the Prestige Class board, is there any official rules for creating a characters younger than the ages given in the Player's Handbook, and if so could you direct me to the correct book(s)? Thanks.
Piggyfreak6 09-09-06, 07:06 PM	In the D20 modern book it has rules for people under the age of 12. It's like a -4 str, a -2 dex and a +2 Cha
Kethka 09-09-06, 08:23 PM	In the D20 modern book it has rules for people under the age of 12. It's like a -4 str, a -2 dex and a +2 Cha What? Bonus to charisma? Why??? And for the love of all that's holy, don't say "because kids are cute"
Copper_Coins 09-09-06, 08:32 PM	And don't say "because kids are cute" :D Because kids are ADORABLE :D But seriously, I think there shouldn't be a minus to DEX, they have small hands, you can to a lot of things with smaller hands (Take Halflings for example).
Kurtulmak 09-09-06, 10:19 PM	:D Because kids are ADORABLE :D But seriously, I think there shouldn't be a minus to DEX, they have small hands, you can to a lot of things with smaller hands (Take Halflings for example). Yeah.. if I were running a campaign (which I never do, but.. uh..), I'd probably give them a -2 to CON and leave the DEX unaltered. Not just because kids generally get sick more often than adults, but also because they're generally not known for being able to take quite as much raw punishment as adults. So, basically, stat them like Kobolds, except with a CHA bonus instead of DEX. Wow, Kobold children must really be the definition of weak, then..
Roivas 09-09-06, 10:29 PM	I've had a player who insisted on playing a child, I allowed it, but it came with consquences. He was a small creature and had a +2 to Dex, but he had a -2 to Str and Con to saddle with. On an unrelatd note, not all kids are cute, most of them don't smell to good either, mostly a sour milk and urine combination. Kids are like any other group of people a few winners a whole lot of losers. But hey that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. though there's no reason to correct me, I am an idiot.
Kethka 09-09-06, 10:43 PM	So, basically, stat them like Kobolds, except with a CHA bonus instead of DEX. WHY? Why must children have a bonus to charisma??? Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Are children more able to lead than adults? Why do they lose their personal magnetism and strength of personality when they hit puberty? Why? WHY!! :D Because kids are ADORABLE :D *sobs uncontrollably*
Lenore 09-09-06, 10:45 PM	Im 12 . . Please dont hate and Id guess Im one of the winners I take ( ___ A shower eveyone day and wash behind my ears and all that jazz :D I win a cookie and i as a child i think any spell like fireball would make me faint just saying
Roivas 09-09-06, 10:49 PM	Are children more able to lead than adults? Why do they lose their personal magnetism and strength of personality when they hit puberty? Why? WHY!! I think people do lose some charisma during puberty, but it comes back in about 10 years.
Paxar 09-09-06, 11:06 PM	I honestly might still give a penalty to dex, maybe, but I wouldn't give a bonus. The reason comes from the description of dexterity from the PHB: Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. Children are definitely more flexible than most people, but their rapidly growing bodies tends to give them less balance and makes them a little more uncoordinated.
Greyseed 09-09-06, 11:13 PM	d20 modern i think says the same thing, but here's what I use -3str, -1dex, -3 con, -1 int, -3 wis, -1 cha Sometimes -1 size catagory depending on the age of the child.
Hydryh 09-10-06, 12:02 AM	I whipped up the following a few weeks back for a young NPC joining the party in my homebrew campaign. Feel free to use it if you like. The Stat modifiers shown are from the creature's base (adult) scores and are NOT cumulative. Age ranges give are for humans; adjust as appropriate. Category / Age Range / STR / DEX / CON / INT / WIS / CHA Infant / 0-4 / -6 / -6 / -6 / -4 / -4 / +4 Child / 5-10 / -3 / 0 / -3 / -2 / -2 / +2 Teen / 11-14 / -1 / 0 / -1 / -1 / -1 / -2 Adult / 15-34 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 Mid. Age/ 35-52 / -1 / -1 / -1 / +1 / +1 / +1 Old / 53-69 / -3 / -3 / -3 / +2 / +2 / +2 Ven. / 70+ / -6 / -6 / -6 / +3 / +3 / +3 And lo, my first post is a home-made chart! Woooo!
whitishknight 09-10-06, 01:30 AM	What kind of rules would you use for a character that, for RP reasons, accessed Necromancy early on which altered his body to remain that of an 8 year old, but with the mind of a 35 year old? Would this even be legal? Understandably, the young body should grant penalties to physical stats (and arguably Dexterity), but what of the INT, WIS, and CHA? I intend to use the Dread Necromancer's Disguise and Bluff class skills to disarm opponents from my adorable character, but I'm not sure if that's a Disguise or Bluff check. He looks like a kid already, but must act like one... so I'm not sure. Anyways, thanks for all the help so far!
Paxar 09-10-06, 01:34 AM	In this case, I wouldn't apply the dex penalty. The body is no longer changing and he's had 27 years to get used to it. His str and con should probably take a hit, but his mental abilities should be normal (though the whole experience may have driven him a bit mad).
Copper_Coins 09-10-06, 05:14 AM	-Jumps to the Anti-CHA for children boat- OK. I would say the major changes would be: -2 STR (For obvious reasons) +2 DEX (They are flexible, and agile, I'm also basing this stat from halflings.) -2 CON (They don't have a fully developed immune system) Small Creature (once again, Halfling's seem like the height of a child) Base Speed 20 (Unsure about this though.)
Optimator 09-10-06, 08:34 PM	I've had a player who insisted on playing a child, I allowed it, but it came with consquences. He was a small creature and had a +2 to Dex, but he had a -2 to Str and Con to saddle with. On an unrelatd note, not all kids are cute, most of them don't smell to good either, mostly a sour milk and urine combination. Kids are like any other group of people a few winners a whole lot of losers. But hey that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. though there's no reason to correct me, I am an idiot. George Carlin is my Lord and Savior.
Shwepie 09-11-06, 01:07 AM	WHY? Why must children have a bonus to charisma??? Are children more able to lead than adults? Why do they lose their personal magnetism and strength of personality when they hit puberty? Why? WHY!! *sobs uncontrollably* It's all really quite simple Kethka, can I call you Kefka? Anyways, childern need the bonus to charisma to manipulate adults into feeding and clothing them as well as taking care of them in general. This is all so they can survive to young adulthood. Once childern reach young adulthood, signified by puberty, they no longer need this extra charisma. So as they travel to adulthood they expell this extra charisma through their skin and this is where acne comes from.
DarknessEternal 09-11-06, 04:52 PM	At least -4 to Str, Con, Int, and Wis. At least -2 to Dex and Cha. The average child is, in no way, superior or even equal to an average adult. They are remarkably inferior, in fact.
Moniker 09-11-06, 04:59 PM	The Game of Thrones D20 book has rules to run children/teens in games. They assume, much like the milieu of the RR Martin world, that children are competant when born unto certain castes of families. The book is a bit heavy on the pocketbook, but likely what you're looking for.
Artector 09-11-06, 05:04 PM	I really want to say I read rules *in a book* for playing/stating children. I think it may have been in the 3.0 DMG or PHB.
The man they call Boxhead 09-11-06, 06:34 PM	What kind of rules would you use for a character that, for RP reasons, accessed Necromancy early on which altered his body to remain that of an 8 year old, but with the mind of a 35 year old? Would this even be legal? Understandably, the young body should grant penalties to physical stats (and arguably Dexterity), but what of the INT, WIS, and CHA? I intend to use the Dread Necromancer's Disguise and Bluff class skills to disarm opponents from my adorable character, but I'm not sure if that's a Disguise or Bluff check. He looks like a kid already, but must act like one... so I'm not sure. Anyways, thanks for all the help so far! I'd probably require no stat mods... Just plop a 5 or 6 in Str, an 8 or 10 in Con and away you go. No modifiers needed.
twad 09-11-06, 11:39 PM	sry, wrong Quote, wrong buttons.
twad 09-11-06, 11:41 PM	What? Bonus to charisma? Why??? And for the love of all that's holy, don't say "because kids are cute" i guess the bonus to CHA is because kids have the tendency to speak their mind and express themselves "loudly" and freely.
Reighnhell 09-12-06, 02:13 AM	the bare bones of the kid mods from Game of Thrones (the following is for human children) Very Young (below 7): Discuss with GM. someone this one is ill-suited for any degree of adventuring, but stranger things have happened. Young (7-8): Small Size, -4 Str, +2 Dex, -3 Con, +2 Cha**. +6 Hide, +2 Climb, +1 Bluff*. Child (9-11): Small Size, -3 Str, +2 Dex, -3 Con, +2 Cha**. + 4 Hide, +2 Climb, +2 Bluff*. Early Teen ( 12-13): -2 Str, +1 Dex, -2 Con, +1 Cha**. +2 Hide, +2 Climb, +2 Bluff*. Young Adult (14-15): -1 Str, -1 Con +1 Hide, +1 Climb, +1 Bluff* Adult (16+): Normal * Children can be very good at deceiving adults when the adults are distracted, inattentive, or engrossed in other matters. Like servants or pets, children are quite often treated as if they were invisible. If an adult has reason to suspect a child of mischief or has full attention upon the child, these bluff bonuses should not be counted. ** Why a charisma bonus? Mainly because even the most well behaved children tend to exibit a breed of willfulllness born from lack of maturity or discipline. And many children are well aware that they can get away with things a adult never could simply by virtue of being a child. This is usually trained out of them by their mid-teens.
Koverchenko 09-12-06, 03:30 AM	Try this on for size: at character creation, the player rolls up a set of adult stats that are achieved upon reaching whatever age adulthood is reached (depending on race). Then, for each stat, the player rolls a d4 (or maybe even a d6, depending on how bleak your view of children is) and applies a negative modifier equal to the number rolled to each stat. This allows for the possibility of having people achieve their full potential at different rates--some people reach their full potential at a relatively early age (like Alexander the Great, who was ruling and leading successfully at a ridiculously young age), while others do not figure themselves out until relatively late in life (like myself). You could do this once, or have such a roll happen for each age catagory the character is below adulthood (infant to child to adolescent to adult, for example). If your campaign is long-lasting enough that the child might eventually age and reach maturity, you can prorate the increase of stats up to the adult stats rolled during character creation. Or, you might choose to handle the stat increase folowing pivotal events in the child character's life. For some stats, you might choose to roll randomly to determine whether a stat is higher or lower than the adult stat--there has been some talk about whether children should have a bonus to Charisma, for example. To my mind, Charisma is all about confidence and self-esteem, force of personality, "stage presence." There are plenty of examples today of child stars who are successful and all the rage as children but, upon reaching adulthood, fade into obscurity. Perhaps the character is a very cute kid, or a very confident and willful child, but after the dark teen years becomes embittered and painfully self-conscious. Conversely, it is also possible for a character to be a shy and quiet child who, as he or she ages, finds confidence and developes a much more forceful personality. Another way to think about children is to perhaps treat them as a sort of "monster class"--for level adjusted monsters, there are often monster class levels that one must go through in order to gain all the abilities of the monster race that must be taken before class levels. There are actually quite a few possibilities with this system--a DM could choose to have a single track of child "monster" levels, or there could be a whole wide range of them, some giving limited, apprentice-level spell-casting abilities, for example. There could be a whole list of childhood feats that would be traded in upon reaching adulthood (ex. Temper Tantrum--adult target within 30 ft must make a Will save or be affected as by a Suggestion spell; only effective outside of combat). The scope of this would of course depend upon the focus of the individual campaign--a classic DND campaign with a child character might have just a single class track, but a Harry Potter campaign might have all sorts of options for pint-sized characters to go through on the road to adulthood. A child-centered campaign might actually be pretty cool. Maybe I'll try it sometime...
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-12-06, 07:47 PM	I think playing a child character would basically be a flaw. Give the guy an extra feat, knock off a few points from Strength, and then have them ignored in most social situations until they cast fireball/shoot annoying dude in face/stab someone with a friggin' greatsword.
Piggyfreak6 09-12-06, 07:59 PM	I found the real rules. It's a -3 Str and Con and a -1 everything else.
Paxar 09-12-06, 08:17 PM	I found the real rules. It's a -3 Str and Con and a -1 everything else. Can you provide a source?
Piggyfreak6 09-12-06, 08:24 PM	Yes. D20 Modern Players Handbook. Age is the same in every era.
theotherdraxen 09-12-06, 10:47 PM	At least -4 to Str, Con, Int, and Wis. At least -2 to Dex and Cha. The average child is, in no way, superior or even equal to an average adult. They are remarkably inferior, in fact. :pbbbtt: Though 18 now, I remember being a child, and you have a very poor opinion of them. I was more flexible and well-balanced as a child, as were most children. We fell down and bumped into stuff alot because we risked falling down and bumping more often (how many adults run around in circles until they get dizzy?). The d20 rules are good, but I'm still in favor of a +2 to dex, as well as some pre-defined circumstance bonuses to skills (e.g. sleight of hand (child pickpockets are a classic), bluff (on adults only; who suspects a child anyway), etc.; not hide, that's already made up by their size modifier and dex bonus). If you have someone playing a child, I'd give them some special powers of some kind. Maybe let them play at one level higher? This goes well for the precocious child-wizard (or necromancer) who out-spells his masters.
Righter8 09-13-06, 12:42 AM	A lot of debate seems to be based on what a child can do that is better than an adult. "Children are weaker, less coordinated, not as intelligent, not as wise, get sick more often, not very charismatic" - just as an example. Now, here is an even more mind-numbing question: If a child is (generally speaking) inferior to an adult of the same race, exactly what classes are you going to be able to take for this character?:confused: The PHB states on page 109 that " You can choose or randomly generate your characters age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the characters race and class" So, GREAT! you can be a human child. Now, while your party is advancing to 20th level, you may get to 1st level in a few more game years.:allalone:
FateSpinnerXXIII 09-13-06, 01:07 AM	Inferior or not. Say Im a 23 yr. old Human. Str.10, Dex.8, Con.9, Int.8, Wis.10 Cha.12 Are you saying because these stats that in so inferior to the avagage adult human than I cant be a lvl 20? Now I do say Getting there takes "Experinece" which also takes time so I would say a child with these stats at the age of 12 shouldnt be level 20 due to the lack of experinece. But still has the potential to gain levels in any givin class.
Kethka 09-13-06, 01:13 AM	Inferior or not. Say Im a 23 yr. old Human. Str.10, Dex.8, Con.9, Int.8, Wis.10 Cha.12 Are you saying because these stats that in so inferior to the avagage adult human than I cant be a lvl 20? No, what he's saying is: The PHB states on page 109 that " You can choose or randomly generate your characters age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the characters race and class"
FateSpinnerXXIII 09-13-06, 01:18 AM	I know, im just also backing up my reason for ignoring that little rule in the book.
Kethka 09-13-06, 01:23 AM	It's all really quite simple Kethka, can I call you Kefka? Isn't it a bit early for pet names? I mean I barely even know you. ;) And yes, I know what you are referring to, and no my name isn't based on that one :P Once childern reach young adulthood, signified by puberty, they no longer need this extra charisma. So as they travel to adulthood they expell this extra charisma through their skin and this is where acne comes from. Wow, it all makes perfect sense now! (Sadly, this is the most believable reason why teenagers would inexplicably lose charisma that I've heard yet) P.S. Even more sadly, that sounds like a rather accurate description of my early high school days :P
FateSpinnerXXIII 09-13-06, 01:25 AM	:) :D ;) lol
Shwepie 09-13-06, 05:55 AM	Isn't it a bit early for pet names? I mean I barely even know you. ;) And yes, I know what you are referring to, and no my name isn't based on that one :P Only asked cause I originally mispelled your name and just ran with it. :D
Righter8 09-13-06, 07:17 AM	Inferior or not. Say Im a 23 yr. old Human. Str.10, Dex.8, Con.9, Int.8, Wis.10 Cha.12 Are you saying because these stats that in so inferior to the avagage adult human than I cant be a lvl 20? Now I do say Getting there takes "Experinece" which also takes time so I would say a child with these stats at the age of 12 shouldnt be level 20 due to the lack of experinece. But still has the potential to gain levels in any givin class. I was not saying children ARE inferior, I was stating that the general concensus is that they are. My 2 y.o. has in times seen things I had not, and can physically do things I cannot (including RUN for hours on end. High Con?).Having said that, As Kethka stated, I am saying what the PHB says. As well, I am saying that if you can explain to me how a 12 y.o. can aquire the experience/training/whateveryouwanttocallit that represents the class abilities, feats, extra skill points I would be most impressed. Everything that a character gets at first level is supposed to represent years of study or training or similar to achieve that minor status of 1st level. If a DM wants to allow it in their game, that would be up to the DM. I wouldn't and that is that.:tiphat:
parad0cz 09-13-06, 01:33 PM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sandrak Ever heard of this guy? I think he is a great reference for D&D, personally. Especially with the Heroes are Different theory. Plus the idea of size/strength/small races still having ungodly str. I think it might add something to the 'hero kid' conversation. Im not saying that every kid should be like this, but not every adult is like *that* either, you know? Thats not even taking savants into consideration. Plus, you ever see those trained circus kids?! Olympic gymnists? Damn scary. If you use the base dice rolling system, you come up with someone quite a cut above the base commoner. Then again, I agree children are lesser developed than humans, and most should reflect that. WHether you want to call them 'inferior' is semanitc arguement. I would call them inferior, but not in a pejoritive or 'personhood value' sense. Only in the sense that someone that can lift 50 pounds is inferior to a person lifting 100 pounds in terms of weightlifting. And thats really what we are talking about. I think halflings are a good concept start, what with the physical. I like the idea of aging bonuses too. What do you think about this: -4 str -I could probably throw a kid farther than i could trust him, especaily if i duct taped him into a ball first. That being said, it allows for 14 str start, which is more than i am am probably now. Alllows for Junior Herc No Dex Change- Smaller allows for some greater flexiblity, and with training sky is literally the limit(gymnests?). They can do things that some adults literally cannot, and they stop being able to do it upon the growth of the body. Then again, adults can do some things kids cant, just becuase they are bigger. I'll call it a wash, and say if you want to play a 'elbows and knees' kid, make it your dump stat. -2 Con -Snot nosed bastards cant take a hit without cryin to mama! Er... what i mean is... Kids can have AMAZING bursts of stamana. Closest thing i can think of to a bunch of wolfpacking kobolds is playing with elementary school kids trying to drown you in the pool. That being said, they do tend to sick more often, and dont have as many hit points. The really young ones tend to crash pretty hard after their bursts. I might be tempeted to make them all raging barbarians... -2 Int -Kids aren't dumb. They are *inexperienced*, lack breadth. This i believe is covered under wisdom. However, the -2 reflects the general lack of book learning compared to an adult. However, a savant kid still can get high, higher than most adults. But a savant adult(and really, 18int? Friggin Hawking) trumps all. -4 wis - Although kids can be quite perceptive and occasionally eerily precocious, most of the time they accuratly reflect the fact they have less experience than an adult. That being said, they do learn quickly for the most part. Sticking your finger into a fire elemental will get you burned. He want do that again!... till he's older... This may play hell with the Golden God Child theory, but your the DM! Fudge here, take there. Charisma - While i LOVE the acne theory, i think we can call it a wash What you think? See this is where a point system would work much better than d20. Not to knock the system, but it woud be easier if skills werent tied to levels. Although it only sorta applies to the thread, my own mother is 4 foot 8. What is that, an elf? Gnome?
DarknessEternal 09-13-06, 02:57 PM	My 2 y.o. has in times seen things I had not, and can physically do things I cannot (including RUN for hours on end. High Con?). Nope, that's stupidity not Constitution. How many hours a day does your 2 year old need to sleep? How many do you? See the difference? Children are full speed all the time because they aren't smart enough to not be. They have no sense of consequence.
Righter8 09-13-06, 03:26 PM	Nope, that's stupidity not Constitution. How many hours a day does your 2 year old need to sleep? How many do you? See the difference? Children are full speed all the time because they aren't smart enough to not be. They have no sense of consequence. {WizO_Cat: Ok, let's kep the discussion on the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. Thank you.} I sleep, as if it matters, approximately 5 hours a night. Not because of need, but because its all I can get between my job, family and my hobbies. My children get, roughly, 12 hours a night. Not because they are exhausted, but because I make them. I haven't put a sleeping child to bed ever. If you had children you would know that they can and will out last any healthy adult in pure stamina. I challenge you to copy everything a toddler does for one day and see who goes to sleep first.
parad0cz 09-13-06, 03:46 PM	All i can think of are horses, that will let you ride them till they die... Even if you do think it's kid's 'stupidity' (There is a differnce between stupid and undeveloped. i suppose you would then consider yourself stupid because you dont understand quantum physics, or havent spent X years in med school to become a neurosurgeon?) that still is more about wisdom than con. Not knowing when to quit might get you farther than 'smarter' people, but you still have the hard limit of your endurance. Even 'smart' people can be forced marched, maybe if you want to intupret that kids force march themselves more often you could say that. Again, the thing is D&D ability scores are an abstraction, even moreso than other systems. The fights over Charisma vs. Apperence is iconic( i always prefered the old WW split up for scores). You could theoretically be very healthy and take poison well, but not have extra hitpoints. You should be able to be the best man in your field and not have the Xd6 hp that would be involved in having such high skills. BUt its a limitation of the D20 system. Representing kids is just as fuzzy as the rest of the system. You have to make allowences. If we were to do this in the whole whitewolf old system we'd just put one dot str, 2 dot dex, 1 or 2 dot con, call yourself a child and be done with it.
Lenore 09-13-06, 08:28 PM	being 12 Id have to say being hit with a sword, shot iwht an arrow, or hit with a spell would make me faint. Just saying
DarknessEternal 09-13-06, 08:31 PM	They're 2 and 4 actually, not non-existant. An averagely healthy adult (not an average one) can walk 20 miles in one day. The average 2 year old couldn't walk 20 miles in a week. They just don't have the prolonged endurance. Children only have energy in short bursts. They don't have the sense to even try anything else except go full speed, then stop, then go full speed again.
Jodjod 09-14-06, 03:29 AM	-4 strength, -2 con. If your 11 year old is pretty big/strong/tough for his age, invest the points in raising that skill. Seems pretty simple to me.
Radijs 09-14-06, 04:45 AM	Are children more able to lead than adults? Why do they lose their personal magnetism and strength of personality when they hit puberty? Why? WHY!! I think people do lose some charisma during puberty, but it comes back in about 10 years. Thats where the roleplaying comes in of course. And kids aren't adorable. They are Precious and thats why they get the cha bonus.
Lenore 09-14-06, 06:52 PM	Cus im so freaking good at lieing thats why i have a cha bonus which im about to lose
cat_god 09-14-06, 07:51 PM	Quintessential Sorceror has rules for children.
theotherdraxen 09-14-06, 07:56 PM	Cus im so freaking good at lieing thats why i have a cha bonus which im about to lose I'd go for more of a circumstance/racial(/age?) bonus on bluff and diplomacy checks made towards members of their same subtype (a baby elf is still going to have an easy time lying to an adult dwarf, but not to a bug bear or dragon). You don't have a charisma bonus: as you lose that 'bonus' on your bluff, you'll also notice that your intimidate goes way up. Teenagers can be more intimidating than an adult, despite not being quite as strong.
Kethka 09-14-06, 09:34 PM	Teenagers can be more intimidating than an adult, despite not being quite as strong. ...what?