Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phrennzy 06-22-07, 01:46 PM	Hi. I get to be a player instead of a DM. I am making a sorcerer in a CORE ONLY game. I plan on him being up front in combat, touch attack oriented. In the group we have a dwarven monk (high AC, will be the main fighter), an archer rogue, and a cleric (uses bows and heals and useful spells). My guy is a 6th level human with: Silent Spell Still Spell Weapon Finesse: Use Dex instead of Str. Uses a +1 light mace. Combat Casting His spells: Mage Armor - defense Shocking Grasp - offense, touch attack for 5d6. +3 to hit when attacking armored foes. Magic Missile - Best spell in the game. Grease - creatively offensive. Semi-utilitarian. Invisibility - Good defense and good escape and stealth. Cat's Grace - +2 AC, +2 to hit due to Weapon Finesse, +2 Reflex save, +2 to skills. I just need a 3rd level spell. I've kinda narrowed it down to: Summon Monster III, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Haste, Slow, Vampiric Touch. Summon monster offers some versatility, but the creatures are kinda...meh. Lightning Bolt is good damage, but maybe I should have more usefullness. Fly has versatility but is too short. Haste is great in combat, but kinda useless out. Slow is just like haste. I also don't like it because it puts the burden on the DM (I empathize) and also gives the targets a save. Vampiric Touch is good healing, but lousy damage. I am open to suggestions. Thanks
Comus 06-22-07, 02:01 PM	I'd go with Vampiric Touch. It's a decent touch spell, and gives you the ability to heal yourself... which you'll need, as you're going to take a sorc into melee combat.
RainerNader 06-22-07, 02:03 PM	Personally I'd recommend Dispel Magic. So many useful situations in and out of combat. Barring that, you can't go wrong with Haste or Fly.
Kouk 06-22-07, 02:43 PM	Damage dealing is also a kind of "utility", especially when the enemies line up.
Pyro_Azer 06-22-07, 02:50 PM	what about fireball? It can do a lot of damage to a lot of enemies.
DrMorganes 06-22-07, 03:15 PM	Fireball and Lightning Bolt do the same damage: (Caster Level)d6. Both allow Reflex Saves for half damage, but Fire is the most common form of damage reduction energy resistance. Average damage at 5d6 is only 15 points; 7 on a successful save. Not truly impressive, and you have to be careful with each or you'll hit your party with the effect. Haste grants +4 to AC in addition to the extra attack. Tough to argue with that in any combat situation... though you can't cast two spells with it. You can cast it on your friends, however, to give your tank a bit extra oomph. Summon Monster III... useful, but its limited duration makes it another combat-only spell. Given your other spells known, Fly takes you out of combat unless you want to default to Magic Missile casting. Slow is a nice debuff, especially against those low Will Save having fighter types. Your entire party gets the benefit when the spell sticks! Plus, you'll remove those caster-in-melee-killing Full Attack actions... Vampiric Touch has more benefit that it first seems. Not only do you damage your target, you heal yourself. This is not to be underestimated! Rather than being a mere 2d6 HP difference between you and your target, you're actually 4d6 HP up. That "healing" is actually Temporary Hit Points - which can take you over your normal HP total! Opening up with this spell can keep you in the fight that much longer. I'd put Vampiric Touch, Haste, and Slow on your short list.
Phrennzy 06-22-07, 03:55 PM	Haste grants +4 to AC in addition to the extra attack. Tough to argue with that in any combat situation... though you can't cast two spells with it. You can cast it on your friends, however, to give your tank a bit extra oomph. I got really excited, then I checked the SRD. A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. We play 3.5
LadyAlaria 06-22-07, 04:40 PM	It all depends on the campaign. My current campaign pits the party against lots of mooks. Fireball is a necessity for clearing out the orcs that stand between the party and the BBEG. Lightning Bolt doesn't do that much more than a Magic Missile - yeah, it can hit more than one victim, but only if they line up for you. Vampiric Touch is creepy. Not for a Good party. Fly is hugely useful. Fly lets you bypass a lot of problems, and opens up new tactics to the party. It has the most utility, and thus is my favorite of the group.
2nd Ed Paladin 06-22-07, 05:08 PM	I'm with the slow and haste crowd. Leaving your foes with only a standard action is huge, especially if you frequently fight creatures with multiple attacks. Also good to help the entire party run away. Haste, we all know what it does. I would also consider consider changing one of your first level spells to Ray of Enfeeblement. If your going to be in melee as a caster it would be nice to reduce most opponents 'to hit' and damage dealing ability.
windscar18 06-22-07, 05:19 PM	Haste...because the only damage spell you will ever EVER need is Magic Missile. At least, for a long long time.
DrMorganes 06-22-07, 07:07 PM	I got really excited, then I checked the SRD. We play 3.5 Sorry, Phren. Too much Neverwinter Nights and not enough tabletop D&D. :weep: I've been making that mistake a lot lately...
DrMorganes 06-22-07, 07:11 PM	Hold the phone... Which version of the SRD are you reading, Phren? Here's the Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) description from d20srd.org. Relevant effects are in bold: When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
Salla 06-22-07, 07:52 PM	Dispel Magic, no question for me. The ability to negate a foe's buffs, counter SLA's, or negate a nasty magic item is just too handy.
trapspringer 06-22-07, 08:00 PM	Well, apparently every single sorcerer flies around and shoot stuff at people no matter what, so I guess you better take fly. :rolleyes: Personally, I think if you're playing a secondary melee sorcerer you better go with displacement or blink. Blink is good for you because the drawbacks don't hit you as hard a weapon-dependent character. In either case that 50% miss chance will keep you alive.
poxjedi 06-23-07, 12:40 AM	Fireball, haste, or Vampiric touch. Haste if there is another arcane caster and a healer already in the party.
runestar 06-23-07, 01:05 AM	I would drop vampiric touch. It has a nice benefit, but just does nothing for the whole party. I would go with either haste, slow, fireball or deep slumber. The last choice is somewhat more controversial as it is not that hard to counter, but it could potentially shut down powerful foes quickly. However, if you will be in the front line, then its casting time of 1 round becomes a liability. How necessary are silent spell and still spell? They are useless to your sorc if he is grappled (since spontaneously casting a stilled spell is a full-round action, and you only have standard actions while grappled, much less pinned). If it is defense you want, maybe bring in alter self, so you can fight as a trodglodyte? Or maybe false life if it is temp hp you seek. Also, perhaps consider replacing combat casting with skill focus: concentration?
Phrennzy 06-23-07, 02:55 AM	After reading and thinking more about Alter Self, I am totally taking that. "Form of a Lizardman!" Bang, +5 Natural armor.
Phrennzy 06-23-07, 02:56 AM	Hold the phone... Which version of the SRD are you reading, Phren? Here's the Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) description from d20srd.org. Relevant effects are in bold: Yah, I read the same one as you - I was only quoting the relevant part.
Yokomohoyo 06-23-07, 03:51 AM	3rd level core spell? Go for fireball then later fly. If your DM allows spells that are from the SpC (ie non core) the options will broaden much more. Anyways what worries me more about your caster is the feats you picked... Still Spell? I would much rather go for Craft Wand to make cheap wands. 1 Wand of Any Spell You Can Cast can get you out of a pinch when your all out of spells for the day. Also its great to hand a Vampiric Touch wand to the rouge so he can sneak attack gainning 2d6 + whatever is his sneak attack bounis in temp HP's. Or passing the rouge a shocking grasp wand... Heck even the Brew potion feat and passing a mage armor and shield potion to the monk or front line fighter would be a bounis for a fight.
OleOneEye 06-23-07, 04:35 AM	Summon Monster III: Summoning spells are exceptionally good with 1001 uses, you can't go wrong if you pick it. Lightning Bolt: Two problems, first is you have shocking grasp and you don't want two of you spell thwarted by the same energy resistance, second is that Fireball holds far more battlefield utility if you are looking at an area of effect spell. It would be a mistake to take Lightning Bolt. Fly: Quite simply a necessary spell for any arcane caster. You will pick it at some point in your career, and now would be just fine. Haste: An excellent combat spell. The monk will love you for it. However, since your primary combat ability stems from casting spells and not from swinging the mace, casting it on yourself will not really improve your combat ability. Slow: If you plan to remain a front-line sorcerer (yikes), this will probably be the best spell to take right now. Quite simply, any melee opponent you face will hack you to pieces if you don't mitigate their combat abilities. Vampiric Touch: Sorcerer's have few spells that they can choose. You already have one damaging touch attack spell. Do you really need to spend two of your precious spell to basically do the same thing?
Bruid 06-23-07, 08:48 AM	While Dispel Magic can be a clutch spell, I'd go with haste first. Your cleric, rogue and monk can all stand to benefit from it, and the extra damage from those attacks outweigh the potential lightning bolt in a given encounter. Haste, followed by Dispel Magic would be my choices for 3rd level spells. Also, don't overlook displacement - what amounts to 50% damage reduction certainly has its uses.
Frodo34x 06-23-07, 09:14 AM	Sorry, Phren. Too much Neverwinter Nights and not enough tabletop D&D. :weep: I've been making that mistake a lot lately... There is no such thing as too much NWN.
Avatar of Kokusho 06-23-07, 11:32 AM	Haste. Your party will love you (and therefore keep ugly things from getting to you) for it.
Sareld 06-23-07, 12:56 PM	When looking at the other members of your party, I have a hard time seeing whay you want in melee range for. With two archers who will be pussying out of most if not all melee fights, and only one semi competent meatshield to hide behind, What are all those monsters going to do witht heir actions? Hammering away with their attacks at the monk and your little d4 caster? If I were you, I would be hiding even further away from the melee action than the rogue and the cleric, and invest in a long range artillery spell like fireball or lightning bolt, or fly if you dont trust the others to protect you from monsters.
trapspringer 06-23-07, 02:18 PM	Alter self is pretty pimp.
Vrael 06-23-07, 05:19 PM	Alter self is pretty pimp. Agreed, and second level, not third.
Phrennzy 06-24-07, 01:12 AM	And the winner is Haste. After reading Alter Self and realizing I can milk 5 points of AC from it, I'll be taking that as well. Haste will benefit everyone in the party at the same time, myself included, when I decide I need to swing my little mace. I'm changing feats as well - losing the Still Spell. I want to keep Silent spell because being Silenced sucks. Thanks all for the input and the help.
runestar 06-24-07, 02:40 AM	The troglodyte might make for a better choice, since it grants +6NA, as well as multiattack as a bonus feat. Though its stinking aura might be a bit problematic for your allies, but it can screw with your foes just as well.:D
Varia 06-26-07, 04:46 AM	I may be late, but I also vote for haste. :)
Psikerlord 06-26-07, 07:43 AM	you could buy yourself a lesser rod of silent spells (core DMG) for 3,000gp, free up your other feat. As for spells, I've always found slow very good: will save, good range, large area effect, and reducing foe to a move OR standard action is as good as dead. Haste is better for the rest of the party than you, but still great. Vampiric touch is killer... but puts you in harms way. Maybe fly and displacement as scrolls, they're very handy, but not always needed every game.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 10:47 AM	you could buy yourself a lesser rod of silent spells (core DMG) for 3,000gp, free up your other feat. I'm totally doing that. The Silent spell isn't something I'll need often, I hope LOL. I'm also getting a wand with Enlarge Person on it for use on the party monk and myself. Reach for the win!
Forfeit 06-27-07, 12:49 PM	Fireball -> Dispell Magic -> Haste. Haste makes your character older :eek:
Charke 06-27-07, 02:26 PM	I don't like haste, but only because it was nerfed in 3.5. It no longer gives you an extra action you can use to cast a second spell every round. It's no longer hideously powerful. I just noticed that it affects 1 person/level which is awesome. Given your choices and the logic behind them - I think you made the right choice. Your party will love your sorc, the bard gets to be the firepower and even though you can't fly, you can run like stink and you aren't being the cliche'd flying fireball sorc. Mark Charke
UndeadViking 06-27-07, 04:30 PM	A sorcerer who's always in the front line isn't going to live long. That vampiric touch idea is nice. You also might consider displacement, which will make you much harder to hit. If you must have a combat spell as your 3rd level spell (and who doesn't want fireball/lightning bolt, etc.), then try to get another defensive spell as soon as you level, like mirror image (level 2) or blur (level 2, lesser version of displacement). Summon Monster III is useful, since you can have the monster watch your back in case you need to retreat.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 04:46 PM	Fireball -> Dispell Magic -> Haste. Haste makes your character older :eek: No, using the rules from 2nd edition makes you older.
trapspringer 06-27-07, 05:11 PM	No, using the rules from 2nd edition makes you older. Correlation =/= Causation
Lord_of_Omnipotence 06-27-07, 10:41 PM	I have to say fireball. At your level, things with fire resistance aren't very common, and AOE damage is essential for fighting mobs. You can swap it out for a more useful spell at higher levels, if you want.
Ace_of_time 06-27-07, 11:43 PM	are you specializing in a school because that would give one more spell per spell level. good luck on third level spells in core. Most look cool but most are not that useful. I'll say haste if I had to pick. But it might be more useful to add Mata magic spell in that slot.
Xavon 06-27-07, 11:45 PM	One more thing; It has been said here that haste is only useful in combat. That simply is not true. +30' speed is also very useful for running away, or 'sneaking' around (though in this case it is more 'moving to fast to see' than actual sneakiness).
The Simbul 06-28-07, 01:15 AM	I cannot really choose for you, mainly because my selection would be geared towards how I typically play sorcerers, which seems to differ a bit with your goal for this character. Personally I am not very fond of the idea of focusing a sorcerers/wizards on touch range spells as a offensive goal, as these spells are far more effective when used passively/defensively--i.e. as a last resort option once the foe has already moved in and engaged the group in close combat, since in that scenario you have the option of moving away from you opponent after you cast the spell. By contrast, actively seeking to use a touch range spell at (almost) every opportunity means you will be just as often moving toward your opponent and then casting your spell, as opposed to moving away from them and then casting--the later of which would be the preferable option for a 6d4 hp armorless character, since moving in to deliver a spell means you are vulnerable to a full melee attack on your next round. Basically, unless you plan on making extensive use of a winged familiar, the spectral hand spell, the Reach Spell metamagic feat, or the arcane reach High Arcana ability of the Archmage, then I would suggest limiting the number of touch range spells you invest in until you are a little higher level or have more defensive spells beyond mage armor and cat's grace. If I personally was to create a touch range spell specialized combat sorcerer (and personally I just would not want to), I would want a spell repertoire that looked something like this 3rd displacement 2nd ghoul touch, mirror image 1st mage armor, magic missile, shield, shocking grasp As in, instead of spending the first few rounds of combat casting medium/long range attack spells at incoming enemies, you would instead cast displacement, mirror image, and shield on the outset of every encounter, and then by the time the third round begins your enemy will be well within reach, which lets you cast your shocking grasp or ghoul touch spells and then move away afterwards if it does not kill them (depriving them of a full attack). Alternatively, if they are using ranged attacks or spells, then you are still somewhat safe to fight back, either by slowing advancing after casting each such spell, or by intermittently firing back with magic missiles. However, in my opinion having to invest in so many combat protection spells to compensate for an inherently low HP/AC just to be able to repeatedly use touch spells in combat is simply too high of a price to pay for a mediocre return, in that you would be better served by spells that enable you to avoid close quarter fighting altogether and slay/defeat/compel foes from a distance. P.S. I personally would argue against fireball, lightning bolt, or vampiric touch as being your first 3rd level spell, and instead take one of the other suggested non-damage spells with the addition that you also take the Empower Spell feat as well, since an empowered magic missile can substitute for the paltry damage of those three spells at CL 6, and while not an area spell it does have the advantage of no saving throw and no energy resistance, energy immunity, or creature type/subtypes to consider.
danielinthewolvesden 06-28-07, 02:42 AM	Haste. Your party will love you (and therefore keep ugly things from getting to you) for it. Yep. Haste it is. Helps you (since you want to upfront, in combat) helps the whole party. Slow is nice, but there are defences against it, so it is never as good as boosting your party (your party will not want to save or get SR). Yeah, you will want fireball and Fly too, but based upon what you said about your PC, the answer is Haste.
WolfHati 06-28-07, 04:14 AM	Deeper slumber can be really nice for the next couple of levels, though trade it out once you near level 10, as it only affects up to 10 HD of creatures. Making a creature helpless until hit for pretty much the entire battle is killer.
DraconsNighthawk 06-28-07, 05:03 AM	OH DEAR GOD WHY DID YOU PICK COMBAT CASTING?! 1: If you have a good concentration, you'd likely always past the dc 15 to cast said spell, and if ya reallllly want the concentration, you can.... 2: Chose skill focus: concentration. You'd lose 1 point in it, but that plus 3 goes to all skill checks, rather then casting defensivly in combat.
Phrennzy 06-28-07, 10:18 AM	OH DEAR GOD WHY DID YOU PICK COMBAT CASTING?! 1: If you have a good concentration, you'd likely always past the dc 15 to cast said spell, and if ya reallllly want the concentration, you can.... 2: Chose skill focus: concentration. You'd lose 1 point in it, but that plus 3 goes to all skill checks, rather then casting defensivly in combat. This thread has helped immensely. I'm dropping Combat Casting in favor of Skill Focus Concentration. Brilliant. Dumping Silent Spell for Craft Wondrous Item. I've already beefed my usefulness up with creating a rope of climbing. Alter Self and Scorching Ray for Second Level spells. Alter Self is too cool, and Scorching Ray for a punch. Haste for Third level. Its too beneficial for the party. Doesn't grant the opposition a save against it, and has uses out of combat. Heck, I get it 4 times a day. As for being a Touch Sorcerer, I've got 40 hit points (toughness, good Con, and I rolled very very well.) and my AC is anywhere from 19-25. (10 +3[Dex] +1 [mithril buckler] +1 [ring of protection] +4 [mage armor] +5 [alter self lizardman]). The alter self has a good duration too. I am really excited about rolling this sorc. He is replacing a half-orc barbarian.druid that just did too much damage and stole the spotlight from everyone. And he was incredibly dull and just not fun to play. I need the charisma LOL. Thanks so much to everyone for all of their input. It is exciting to be a player (I usually DM) and experience this side of the game and this side of these boards, with people's input on your character. It is really a great experiece.:)
runestar 06-28-07, 10:23 AM	Alter self also has some other uses outside of combat, so you might want to familiarize yourself with the list of possible alter self choices, as well as their benefits.:) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246 Looks like it will be a fun character to play. A melee sorc, imagine that...:cool:
Phrennzy 06-29-07, 01:07 AM	Oh wow - just finished the session and Randall (the Sorcerer) was bad ass. Haste was totally the way to go. Plus I bought a wand of Enlarge Person and used it on the Dwarf Monk. So we had a Hasted, Giant Monk Flurrying all over the place. He's the new tank, and he's likin my guy for sure. The shocking grasp worked well, and the Alter Self made me practically untouchable. AC 24! Thanks so much to everyone for helping me enjoy my guy even more.