Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zaku 05-30-06, 04:02 AM	Why do Christians always feel so threatened by DnD? I mean its not like we're forcing the ways of Nerull down they're throats and encouraging heathenism. We're just a bunch of people trying to have fun. I am saying this as an Orthodox christian in a family where my mom is devoute and an overwhelming majority strongly believe in Christianity. But when I introduce them to DnD I hear nothing, no complaints except "My dice is rigged!" I think those narrow minded jerks should just tick off and realize that just because DnD gives religious choices doesn't mean its devil work. Please post replies.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-30-06, 04:07 AM	Oh :censored: . Did you have to not only post a thread knocking religion, but call out a particular religion by name? I have my ideas about why certain people have issues with certain games, and I'd like to share 'em, but I like to think I know better. Good luck getting some adequate replies before this thread is locked or deleted, if it is.
X-Codes 05-30-06, 04:12 AM	Oh :censored: . Did you have to not only post a thread knocking religion, but call out a particular religion by name? I have my ideas about why certain people have issues with certain games, and I'd like to share 'em, but I like to think I know better. Good luck getting some adequate replies before this thread is locked or deleted, if it is. Hey, at least it's not another one of those stupid "Jeasus will save you" threads those random christian trolls spam all over the place. People who hate things like D&D, Halloween, Wicca, The DaVinci Code, and white face paint deserve to be constantly knocked on until they just shut up... but this doesn't go here.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-30-06, 04:25 AM	Well yeah, I'm all for bashing individuals or groups that have it coming. But as you said, this isn't the place.
Gedrin 05-30-06, 04:50 AM	Well...since you ask... I'm a Christian. I play D&D. I don't run into much of an issue, if any. I think you'll find two camps of Christians concerned about D&D and other FRPGs. One camp believes that acting out things like sorcery or the worship of other gods is wrong. They tend to think that learning to act out things that would be wrong trains one to do things that are wrong. Since pretty much every training program ever invented uses methods of praticing in dummy situations before doing the real thing...it's easy to understand how someone could view acting out the worship of other gods as something that will divert one to those practices. I'm not saying it will, I'm just saying that is what some people think. Another camp, and I'd put myself here, feels that a lot of people who play RPGs are overtly hostile to Christianity. This leaves many Christians feeling defensive. If so many people who play D&D or other RPG's are hostile to Chirstians, some believe may be a connection between anti-Christian thought and RPGs, and thus they are a cause for concern. I, personally, don't think that there is an innate connection between RPGs and disliking Christianity, but I do know that on these boards my beliefs are regularly and viciously mocked and I am, as a Christian, fairly frequently visited with insults. I can understand why someone would look at these boards and wonder,"What is it about D&D that makes so many people hate Christians?" Now, I don't want to sound overly touchy about the matter, but I see a lot of posts talking about "why do Christians hate us" and "they're so narrow minded". People even start whole threads to rant about those book burning Christians and their fundamentalist ways. I can't say I've ever run into anyone who actually told me D&D was the devil's work, nor has anyone ever told me to burn my books. I've never even had anyone tell me I shouldn't be playing. I hear many more comments, that are much more vitriolic, from gamers about Christians, than I have heard from Christians about gamers. There's even one post in this thread that suggests, and I'm sure it's intended to be a joke, that people who dislike D&D and speak against it should be beaten into silence. In large part, I think the gamer community does many things to sabotage itself. The fact that some people on these boards have encouraged children to lie to their parrents and play D&D on the sly doesn't help at all. Lots of game shops are...well...very strange places, and the Vampirella shrine by the register and H-mags on display just don't say "family friendly". Then there are the games that we choose to run. There are whole threads full of players running murderers, theives, and even rapists. That's not something many parrents would condone their children acting out. I'm 32 and I wouldn't want to be in a game like that myself. Are there some Christians that will reject D&D and try to persuade others to stop playing, sure. Most won't care unless your trying to get their kids into a BoVD as PC's game. That doesn't mean people, in general, aren't a little wierded out by what they see in a game store, and what they hear in some games.
Azezel 05-30-06, 04:53 AM	People, CoC isn't just a Lovecraft RPG. Can we have get a moderator here please?
Archangel62 05-30-06, 04:56 AM	Troll, troll, troll, a thread Gently throught the feed Verily, verily, verily, verily, A life is what you need. :rolleyes:
geekling 05-30-06, 05:00 AM	Troll, troll, troll, a thread Gently throught the feed Verily, verily, verily, verily, A life is what you need. :rolleyes: Sung to the tune of amazing grace?
Gedrin 05-30-06, 05:02 AM	Row, row, row, your boat...
Witch 05-30-06, 05:13 AM	People who hate things like D&D, Halloween, Wicca, The DaVinci Code, and white face paint deserve to be constantly knocked on until they just shut up... but this doesn't go here. Then knock on me all you want, but I hate the Da Vinci code. I wouldn't have a problem with the book if it didn't mention the foreword, but it does. The author is trying to spread lies, and implies they have merit, while they are based on worthless documents forged in the 19th century. Yeah, I hate the Da Vinci Code.
X-Codes 05-30-06, 05:25 AM	Well...since you ask... I'm a Christian. I play D&D. I don't run into much of an issue, if any. I think you'll find two camps of Christians concerned about D&D and other FRPGs. One camp believes that acting out things like sorcery or the worship of other gods is wrong. They tend to think that learning to act out things that would be wrong trains one to do things that are wrong. Since pretty much every training program ever invented uses methods of praticing in dummy situations before doing the real thing...it's easy to understand how someone could view acting out the worship of other gods as something that will divert one to those practices. I'm not saying it will, I'm just saying that is what some people think. Another camp, and I'd put myself here, feels that a lot of people who play RPGs are overtly hostile to Christianity. This leaves many Christians feeling defensive. If so many people who play D&D or other RPG's are hostile to Chirstians, some believe may be a connection between anti-Christian thought and RPGs, and thus they are a cause for concern. I, personally, don't think that there is an innate connection between RPGs and disliking Christianity, but I do know that on these boards my beliefs are regularly and viciously mocked and I am, as a Christian, fairly frequently visited with insults. I can understand why someone would look at these boards and wonder,"What is it about D&D that makes so many people hate Christians?" Hey, when it comes to my beef with Christianity, you guys SOOOOOO started it. An orthodox christian family litterally made their son stop being my friend in about 4th grade because when he came over to my house we played the real old-school D&D. Now, I don't want to sound overly touchy about the matter, but I see a lot of posts talking about "why do Christians hate us" and "they're so narrow minded". People even start whole threads to rant about those book burning Christians and their fundamentalist ways. I can't say I've ever run into anyone who actually told me D&D was the devil's work, nor has anyone ever told me to burn my books. I've never even had anyone tell me I shouldn't be playing. I hear many more comments, that are much more vitriolic, from gamers about Christians, than I have heard from Christians about gamers. There's even one post in this thread that suggests, and I'm sure it's intended to be a joke, that people who dislike D&D and speak against it should be beaten into silence. :ahem: No, I said they should be made fun of until they shut up because every time they open their mouths they stick their foot right into it. It was funny the first time, but after the 1.095*10^10937612th time it got annoying. In large part, I think the gamer community does many things to sabotage itself. The fact that some people on these boards have encouraged children to lie to their parrents and play D&D on the sly doesn't help at all. Lots of game shops are...well...very strange places, and the Vampirella shrine by the register and H-mags on display just don't say "family friendly". Then there are the games that we choose to run. There are whole threads full of players running murderers, theives, and even rapists. That's not something many parrents would condone their children acting out. I'm 32 and I wouldn't want to be in a game like that myself. If you don't like the game shops, buy your books at Borders. As for rape, I've never seen it on these or any other boards. If you ask around, you will find that 99.9% of people over the age of 12 aren't interested in that at all. Are there some Christians that will reject D&D and try to persuade others to stop playing, sure. Most won't care unless your trying to get their kids into a BoVD as PC's game. That doesn't mean people, in general, aren't a little wierded out by what they see in a game store, and what they hear in some games. In other words, you admit that Christianity, as a whole, is passing judgement on the gamer community because of the far extreme, which is actually not a part of the gamer community but spreads into other subcultures as well. Until orthodox christians collectively get those sticks out of their :censored: , stops being so damn hypocritical, and learns that I neither want nor need saving by JC, I will maintain my negative view of their faith.
Witch 05-30-06, 05:34 AM	As for rape, I've never seen it on these or any other boards. If you ask around, you will find that 99.9% of people over the age of 12 aren't interested in that at all. Read the "mature" boards. In other words, you admit that Christianity, as a whole, is passing judgement on the gamer community because of the far extreme, which is actually not a part of the gamer community but spreads into other subcultures as well. Until orthodox christians collectively get those sticks out of their :censored: , stops being so damn hypocritical, and learns that I neither want nor need saving by JC, I will maintain my negative view of their faith. If both sides retain their hostile feel, there'll never be a solution. Christians are not evil people as a whole. Sure, some are. Others are slaves to what their pastor says. Others think for themselves. Some are good people. Some are idiots. Some are clever. You cannot generalise this. Also, a good christian will believe you need to be saved by Jesus Christ. This does not necessarily mean conversion, but it will mean a good life.
Archangel62 05-30-06, 05:36 AM	Look, I'm a Christian and frankly I'm getting sick of my faith getting attacked on the boards. I'm so sorry that we aren't all perfect like the rest of you and that some people make decisions because of what they get exposed to first. Some of my groups I honestly could see where the argument for the game being bad may have come from. X-Codes, you aren't being any better than the zealouts by lumping all Christians into an intolerant pile. I pray that you will learn some patience with people. I'm sorry about what happened with your friend, but people have pointed out that some of what we do does shoot us in the foot.
BloodSpill 05-30-06, 05:44 AM	The original poster is playing the trolling game. Every he makes is -20 points, every reply he gets is 1 point. That sort of thing. This is why people say "don't feed the troll".
Black Kitten 05-30-06, 05:47 AM	It's days like these that I am happy to live in the Netherlands. I've luckily never experienced any of this kind of problems, even while I grew up 2km from the biblebelt. I think that none of this debate will lead anywhere as much as a debate between evolution and creation won't lead anywhere. Be patient and tolerant to eachother and things will go a lot more smoothly. Of course, everyone has his/her expressive opinion about these things, but the thing is that you will have to live with your parents. I have heard many times that just showing them a game of DND is enough to convince 90% that it's not a satanic ritual disguised as a simple game. For the rest, not everyone's as lucky in this. That's life, live with it.
Witch 05-30-06, 05:49 AM	The original poster is playing the trolling game. Every he makes is -20 points, every reply he gets is 1 point. That sort of thing. You are correct. Here's another of his threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9277845
X-Codes 05-30-06, 05:56 AM	Read the "mature" boards. I don't believe I said 100%. AFAIK theres no place like that on the Wizards forums. If both sides retain their hostile feel, there'll never be a solution. Christians are not evil people as a whole. Sure, some are. Others are slaves to what their pastor says. Others think for themselves. Some are good people. Some are idiots. Some are clever. You cannot generalise this. Look at Gedrin's post. He apparently plays D&D and yet apparently has a problem with the RPG community, lumping all of us into a dark subculture that frequents Hot Topic. I think it's safe to assume that he's as good as it gets, and that obnoxious lunatics that can't talk about D&D for half a sentence without saying "Devil," "Satan," or "Satanism" is the other end point, what does that leave in the middle? Also, a good christian will believe you need to be saved by Jesus Christ. This does not necessarily mean conversion, but it will mean a good life. No, it won't mean a good life. I'll still have to deal with those people knocking on my door handing out fliers telling me to go get saved by JC. If you hate The DaVinci Code, you'll really hate me if you get me started on JC.
Black Kitten 05-30-06, 05:59 AM	No, it won't mean a good life. I'll still have to deal with those people knocking on my door handing out fliers telling me to go get saved by JC. If you hate The DaVinci Code, you'll really hate me if you get me started on JC. I believe that this is not a topic to be discussed here. Even though I think I will rot into non-existance after death, doesn't mean others believe the same. Don't state opinions as facts.
Witch 05-30-06, 06:03 AM	I don't believe I said 100%. AFAIK theres no place like that on the Wizards forums. There is. You have to fill in your birthday in your profile to see it. Look at Gedrin's post. He apparently plays D&D and yet apparently has a problem with the RPG community, lumping all of us into a dark subculture that frequents Hot Topic. I think it's safe to assume that he's as good as it gets, and that obnoxious lunatics that can't talk about D&D for half a sentence without saying "Devil," "Satan," or "Satanism" is the other end point, what does that leave in the middle? Oh but there is a problem with a lot of elements in the RPG community. Not all of them, but many people within it are overtly hostile to religion. However, I'll blame this on youthly arrogance, not on the game itself. No, it won't mean a good life. I'll still have to deal with those people knocking on my door handing out fliers telling me to go get saved by JC. If you hate The DaVinci Code, you'll really hate me if you get me started on JC. So people knock on your door to get saved by Christ - heck, I know a Jehovahs Witness. Just say: "No thanks", and friendlily close the door. And I hate the Da Vinci Code not because I think "the bible is set in stone", but because it is founded on lies, originally coming from a forged document that proved someone's ancestry to french kings, so he could claim the throne of France.
X-Codes 05-30-06, 06:58 AM	There is. You have to fill in your birthday in your profile to see it. Theres still the fact that I didn't say 100%. Read my post in it's entirety, don't just skim it like you do the Holy Bible. Oh but there is a problem with a lot of elements in the RPG community. Not all of them, but many people within it are overtly hostile to religion. However, I'll blame this on youthly arrogance, not on the game itself. People hate Christians for demonizing their games, annoying them with propaganda, and looking down on the majority of the population. How would you feel that if I told if you didn't do something you didn't believe in you would be punished eternally for no damn good reason? If you are not gullible enough to believe in an almighty being that needs you to constantly give money to him, you'd probably be pretty ****** off. And I hate the Da Vinci Code not because I think "the bible is set in stone", but because it is founded on lies, originally coming from a forged document that proved someone's ancestry to french kings, so he could claim the throne of France. I did not invite you to rant on the book. Again, read my posts.
Witch 05-30-06, 07:10 AM	Theres still the fact that I didn't say 100%. Read my post in it's entirety, don't just skim it like you do the Holy Bible. Read the board itself. You'll note that a lot more than 0.01% is interested in sex & rape in D&D. Skimming a Bible? My dear, I don't read the bible. In all my life, I've only read Genesis, Job, and the Gospels. I should read more of it, yes. But there's so much in this world to read and know. I could read the Corpus Hermeticum, instead, for example, and find out that Jehovah is actually an evil demiurge, and Christ is a prophet from the One True God. One could argue that those myths are just that, myths. The essence of religion is and will always be a way of thinking, and a way of acting. Religionbashing is popular nowadays. I don't understand why. I feel nihilism is responsible. Anyway, I'm not a christian, neither do I believe in any God, though I might develop pantheistic tendencies. I don't bash religion either. I just can't make myself believe. I don't have the spark. People hate Christians for demonizing their games, annoying them with propaganda, and looking down on the majority of the population. How would you feel that if I told if you didn't do something you didn't believe in you would be punished eternally for no damn good reason? If you are not gullible enough to believe in an almighty being that needs you to constantly give money to him, you'd probably be pretty ****** off. It's a pretty good way of convincing the majority of people to not do bad things, that eternal punishment. Religion is a concept that gives meaning to lives, meaning to suffering, and creates moral standards for the majority of people to follow, if they don't have a sense of altruism themselves. Secondly, you don't give money to an allmighty being, you're supposed to give money to the poor, the starving, the ones who can't survive on their own. If you put it that way, not giving is the thing which comes out despicable.
AngelDust Anderson 05-30-06, 07:14 AM	Oh Dear, I am <u>Roman Catholic.</u> I play D&D. When it comes to my faith, I tend to sound a bit like a fanatic (hence my screen name), But the whole "D&D is the worship of satan, woooo scary. Keep Children away or they will kill themselves" thing is over, it has been for a long time. I mentioned the game to my parish priest once and he said it was good to see people playing a game that involves thinking fo once. Most Christians have no problem with D&D these days. Just out of interest sir original poster, are you athiest? From my experiance, athiests tent to act more like religious fanatics than most religious people. I have met more athiests interesting is bringing down the Catholic Church than I have Religious Fanatics trying to destroy D&D. Sir, your attack on religion is more fanatical than most catholics are about most subjects. Sorry if this sounded like a rant, this topic gets me a bit annoyed because I can see both sides of the Issue. <deep breath> Wow, that was suprisingly rational, concidering I'm 16.
Witch 05-30-06, 07:19 AM	I agree that atheists tend to be fanatics a lot more often, because it implies a degree of fanaticism through its definition. Atheism says: "There is NO God, and I'm pretty sure of that. Everyone who believes there is one, is wrong. There is no God, not in a single form." Religious people on the other hand, tend to not know how their God is like. Most theologians nowadays argue that we mortals cannot state which properties God has. This is automatically a more nuanced vision. Myself, I resort to agnosticism.
Drachasor 05-30-06, 07:21 AM	Oh heck people, some of you...a lot of you...need to stop stereotyping. It's "christian this", "roleplayers that", and don't forget about those bloody <insert group generalization here>! "the christians" are not one homogeneous group. They don't all believe the same things and they don't all support the same things. They certainly are not all in a plot to rob anyone of any friends. A particular group of people who happen to be christians might do such a thing, but certainly not everyone claiming to have that faith. Similarly, some roleplayers may be annoying gits who give christians or members of other religions a hard time (ironically by using silly stereotypes), but certainly not all roleplayers are like this. Some of the people here need to start looking at people as individuals. One person might have one or two similarities with another (christian, asian, eats beef, what-have-you), but that certainly doesn't mean they believe the same things. Certainly with a religious group as huge and varied as christianity you can't easily place labels on their behavior. The same is true of roleplayers. If you want to get angry at someone and rant, then rant about the annoying people in your life that give you a hard time. It is innappropriate however to make a broad and useless generalization of those people to a huge, huge section of the population. It's also intellectually irresponsible. I'm an atheist by the way, flame me if you must. -Drachasor
Drachasor 05-30-06, 07:23 AM	I agree that atheists tend to be fanatics a lot more often, because it implies a degree of fanaticism through its definition. And no, it doesn't. Just implies a lack of a belief in god, by definition. A pretty broad group overall, some fanatical and some not. But I am not sure this is the thread for discussion issues of english lexicon. -Drachasor
X-Codes 05-30-06, 07:37 AM	It's a pretty good way of convincing the majority of people to not do bad things, that eternal punishment. No it isn't, it's circular reasoning. In order to threaten someone with eternal punishment they have to believe in it first. If they believe in it already then you're preaching to the choir, which makes telling them in the first place pretty stupid, and if they don't believe in it it's arrogant to assume that your words will change anything. Religion is a concept that gives meaning to lives, meaning to suffering, and creates moral standards for the majority of people to follow, if they don't have a sense of altruism themselves. Secondly, you don't give money to an allmighty being, you're supposed to give money to the poor, the starving, the ones who can't survive on their own. If you put it that way, not giving is the thing which comes out despicable. If you need an invisible man that lives in the sky to give your life meaning, then you need to get a life. To create and continue life is more than enough reason to live, and suffering is required in order to feel pleasure. As for morality, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other cause. The most notable wars waged in God's name were the Crusades, a series of wars based on suspicion and lies. Some moral standards. If you want to give money to the poor, you don't give it to the Church, you give it to the Red Cross or Goodwill or any number of other similar organizations. Why? Because they're more efficent in changing your contributions from money into clothing and health care. The Church has to pay to maintain their grounds and polish their silver first.
Witch 05-30-06, 07:48 AM	And no, it doesn't. Just implies a lack of a belief in god, by definition. A pretty broad group overall, some fanatical and some not. But I am not sure this is the thread for discussion issues of english lexicon. -Drachasor That's not necessarily true. Agnosticism means that you don't believe in a God either, yet it's not a part of atheism. Atheism is a straight denial of Gods existance, which contains a degree of fanaticism. It is the disbelief of a God, which is something different from just not believing. Naturally, a lot of atheists merely state that it is improbable God exists, which lessens the fanaticism. No it isn't, it's circular reasoning. In order to threaten someone with eternal punishment they have to believe in it first. If they believe in it already then you're preaching to the choir, which makes telling them in the first place pretty stupid, and if they don't believe in it it's arrogant to assume that your words will change anything. Ofcourse it's circular reasoning - and they don't care, as long as it works. Religion is not intended in that way for the intellectually gifted - those can work out morality in a religious cadre by themselves. If you need an invisible man that lives in the sky to give your life meaning, then you need to get a life. To create and continue life is more than enough reason to live, and suffering is required in order to feel pleasure. As for morality, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other cause. The most notable wars waged in God's name were the Crusades, a series of wars based on suspicion and lies. Some moral standards. Whoever called those wars justified? Everytime religion morality is discussed, someone brings up the crusades. When I discuss the morality vegetarianism, I don't bring up Hitler, who intended to oblige his every subject to be a vegetarian as well, after he won the war. Bringing up the crusades does not disprove my argument, it shows that you are willing to mislead people through rhetorical tricks. As for the meaning, you live in luxury. Religion was always most important for those who felt a lot of suffering around them, and an inability to change it. If you want to give money to the poor, you don't give it to the Church, you give it to the Red Cross or Goodwill or any number of other similar organizations. Why? Because they're more efficent in changing your contributions from money into clothing and health care. The Church has to pay to maintain their grounds and polish their silver first. If I went to speak to a Pastor here, and I said I don't give to the church, but give to the Red Cross instead, they'll say: "You are a good man, my son."
Ankalagon 05-30-06, 07:57 AM	Until orthodox christians collectively get those sticks out of their :censored: , stops being so damn hypocritical, and learns that I neither want nor need saving by JC, I will maintain my negative view of their faith. If you have something beautiful and fulfilling in your soul, that allows you to meet the challenges of the world head on, it would be positively un-christian and therefore hypocritical not to try and share it. I see this and I am a fully fledged agnostic.
Witch 05-30-06, 08:00 AM	If you have something beautiful and fulfilling in your soul, that allows you to meet the challenges of the world head on, it would be positively un-christian and therefore hypocritical not to try and share it. I see this and I am a fully fledged agnostic. A beautiful way of stating it.
Cifer 05-30-06, 08:11 AM	If you need an invisible man that lives in the sky to give your life meaning, then you need to get a life. To create and continue life is more than enough reason to live, and suffering is required in order to feel pleasure. I know at least one person who would have comitted suicide if he had not foung belief and several others who had the strength to live through the wars because of their faith. If it helps people to live their life and behave, who are we to declare it wrong? As for morality, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other cause. The most notable wars waged in God's name were the Crusades, a series of wars based on suspicion and lies. Some moral standards. I'm pretty sure a good deal of people were killed because of insufficient medical knowledge. Should we have given up medicine because of it? Then knock on me all you want, but I hate the Da Vinci code I didn't read the book because of "Angels & Demons", its predecessor. I just didn't like the writing style, the pseudodocumentary style (what you referred to with the foreword) or the logic employed (the swiss guard not being able to triangulate a constantly sending video camera? Sorry?). Oh, my... am I agreeing with Witch here? Got to find something to disagree about... ah, here: Read the board itself. You'll note that a lot more than 0.01% is interested in sex & rape in D&D. Sex? Certainly. Rape? IIRC, the biggest part by far of contributions to "How do I incorporate rape into a game" was "Don't!"
Witch 05-30-06, 08:22 AM	Oh, my... am I agreeing with Witch here? Got to find something to disagree about... ah, here: Sex? Certainly. Rape? IIRC, the biggest part by far of contributions to "How do I incorporate rape into a game" was "Don't!" That's a very minor point to disagree on :) But you are correct, the majority of people said not to do it. However, this wasn't nearly the 99.9% that the poster was talking about. I'll still agree that most people don't want to incorporate it, but I'd but that number closer to 90%.
Ut-Napishtim 05-30-06, 08:41 AM	Meh, I've been a big fan of Jeebus for years, and one of D&D for nearly as long. Sure, back 20 years ago it was a huge deal to my folks and they forbade me from playing. Oddly enough they didn't have a problem with GURPS, just the D&D moniker it seems. Heck, they also thought Star Wars was evil because the Jedi called on "The Force" and such. Times have changed though and that old rant just doesn't hold true. Heck, probably half-a-dozen folks on these boards have said that their first DM was their local pastor/minister that ran a game at their church, and my elderly parents loved the LOTR movies. These days the more conservative aspects of the various Christian faiths are more concerned with overturning Roe v. Wade or getting an Intelligent Design curiculum into public schools than stopping a few geeks from sitting around a table pretending to kill monsters and swilling Mountain Dew. :twocents:
Rim-Soulfang 05-30-06, 08:51 AM	My gaming group is even sponsored by the church.
hmmmm 05-30-06, 09:11 AM	Troll, troll, troll, a thread Gently throught the feed Verily, verily, verily, verily, A life is what you need. :rolleyes: Great song. Zaku, did you even read the CoC or just skipped it? If not heres what it says about trolling (As I asume that was what this thread is) Prohibited chat room, board, and e-mail list, behaviors include (but are not limited to):: Trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to elicit a negative response from the community It is also against the "Off topic" part as well as you don't seem to have a problem as a player but I might be wrong.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-30-06, 09:58 AM	Maybe the mods are waiting for somebody to post some kind of correct answer, like this article (http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html). Or maybe they want us to repeat the usual nuggets of wisdom on this subject, i.e. not all christians are like that, the ones that are really psychotic about it are generally few and far between, if they don't listen to reason then just avoid/ignore them, etc. Or maybe they're too tired to care. So very, very tired. Katana.
Witch 05-30-06, 10:08 AM	Maybe the mods are waiting for somebody to post some kind of correct answer, like this article (http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html). Or maybe they want us to repeat the usual nuggets of wisdom on this subject, i.e. not all christians are like that, the ones that are really psychotic about it are generally few and far between, if they don't listen to reason then just avoid/ignore them, etc. Or maybe they're too tired to care. So very, very tired. Katana. Sir, you win this thread.
hmmmm 05-30-06, 10:12 AM	With the amount of threads/posts like this I would have stopped caring.
Zaku 05-30-06, 10:19 AM	I want people to realize I'm not knocking on anything. I'm a firm believer in Christianity. I just want to see how people react. Besides, this things gonna get deleted any way. Peace out. Christians rule.
Radijs 05-30-06, 10:34 AM	My gaming group is even sponsored by the church. Sweet how did you get that set up?
darkness ninja of light 05-30-06, 10:35 AM	That's not going to work, Zaku. You've already admitted to trolling/baiting and posting simply because you know it'll be deleted. Read the Code of Conduct and stop wasting everyone's time. If you wanted to see how people would react, read the other hundred posts people post on this topic every year.
KVW 05-30-06, 10:36 AM	I am also a Christian and I play DnD. I've been doing research on both sides of the argument. The Christian side of the arguement says that DnD promotes violence worship of false gods and the practice of magic. The christians say playing DnD creates an obsession seperating you from God. Well it's JUST A GAME. It's played for fun and not meant to be taken seriously. No one I know has ever in reality prayed to Pelor tried to cast a spell or put on a weapon and attacked someone else. I have how ever seen DnD become such an obsession it's taken away from real life. Then again if you walk the Christian walk there are lots of things that can take you away from your walk your job, your desire for more money, that hot chick at the bar need I go on? I'm not saying DnD is harmless but to each his own. The problem I have with other Christians and the game is that the ones against it tend to be the fanatical fundamentalists and use exterme judgemental arguements which turn me off. Even the bible says judge not lest ye be judged and Christ himself said before you tell your friend of the speck in his eye you should remove the plank from yours. I just want a voice of reason on this issue.
Ankalagon 05-30-06, 10:38 AM	A beautiful way of stating it. Cheers. Between, sarcasm, flames and green, regenerative behaviour I guess even I have my moments. ;)
RaspK FOG 05-30-06, 10:39 AM	I know I won't be getting away with this, but I just have to say it: I so much believe that the world would be a better place if Ms Pulling's father was as good at doing just that as he name would have suggested; I don't think this needs much explanation for most... :rolleyes: Note that I am a Greek Christian (well, so I believe by most accounts, even if I am so in a very universalistic way), and there's nothing "eevyle" about D&D.
Zaku 05-30-06, 10:46 AM	Y'all need to chill. Man, a guy posts one post that challenges thought process and people freak out. My gosh you guys are really overreacting. One little post, which, by the way, is your god-given right to ignore and people wig out. Most of the posts here are mundane. Somebody write something though provoking and not "gosh, I wonder how to best bend and twist the rules of a game to make my bard a demi-god."
Bulletproof_Condom 05-30-06, 10:57 AM	Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot.
Witch 05-30-06, 11:03 AM	Even the bible says judge not lest ye be judged and Christ himself said before you tell your friend of the speck in his eye you should remove the plank from yours. I just want a voice of reason on this issue. Christ also said that you should point out flaws in a friend.
Verelor 05-30-06, 11:10 AM	It is a very small caste of Christianity these days that sees any issue with D&D. Very few of those have any experience at all with D&D. It certainly isn't inherent to the faith. I am a Christian. I like Dungeons & Dragons; I like the Book of Exalted Deeds and playing heroic or good-aligned characters in Dungeons & Dragons. I like videogames. I am ok with some violent videogames. I hate videogames that are all about killing. I am a person that has an active mind and imagination and uses logic whenever possible. I like Leo Tolstoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy) . I have never stolen, cheated on someone, abused, or killed a sentient being. If someone commits such acts, they should not be harmed, but forgiven. I am certainly not an extremist (if by extremist you mean threats and finger-pointing to make some sort of point, no, what respectable Christian does that?). I respect other religions but I certainly like to debate them, asking questions and being asked about mine. Noone else in my immediate family is really Christian; I have deduced the value of this valid religion by myself. I believe it is not even necessary to know a person to respect or care for them, something so many anti-religious people do not understand. People who hate things like D&D, Halloween, Wicca, The DaVinci Code, and white face paint deserve to be constantly knocked on until they just shut up... but this doesn't go here. No, you're wrong, they don't. D&D is cool. Halloween is candy consumerism. Wicca is a religion that someone made up in the 1800s. The DaVinci code is a large set of lies that Dan Brown made up with no historical truth to any part of them (The Marovingian bloodline has been tested; it's 100% european, Partner means helper in a sisterly way in Coptic, which the questionable Gnostic gnostic gospels were written in, there was never a priory of Sion, there is no evidence whatsoever of a link between the Masons and Knights Templar). And white face paint is...white face paint. If you are any kind of decent person and not some totalitarian filled with hate, you wouldn't say these things so lightly. People who do not understand should be educated. We cannot fight the bad with the bad; it never works. As for morality, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other cause. The most notable wars waged in God's name were the Crusades, a series of wars based on suspicion and lies. Some moral standards. That's not true, actually. Going by the sheer body count, the most evil religion of the 20th century is Communism. Fascism and Nazism were a very distant second. Any other political or religious view in the 20th century trailed way behind that in kill count. How many of the huge wars were fought over religion in the 20th century? None, really. Not World War 1. Not World War 2. Not the worldwide war against Communism. Really not the Vietnam War (doesn't mean it wasn't completely wrong anyway). Really, for anything close to big, just the Mediterranean genocides. The Crusades were horrible. People throwing out the Bible and the Quran for the persuit of power. Those genocides certainly have little relevance to our issues today, and people will always find something to kill for.
Witch 05-30-06, 11:16 AM	there was never a priory of Sion There was. Look: The Priory of Sion is an association that was founded in 1956, in the French town of Annemasse. As with all associations, French law required the association to be registered with the government. This took place at the Sub-Prefecture of Saint Julien-en-Genevois, in May 1956, and its registration was noted on 20 July 1956 in the Journal Officiel de la République Française. The founders and signatories are inscribed as Pierre Plantard (known as "Chyren"), André Bonhomme (known as "Stanis Bellas"), Jean Delaval, and Armand Defago. The purpose of the association according to its Statutes deposited at St. Julien was entered as, "Études et entraide des membres" ("education and mutual aid of the members"). In practice, the originator of the association and its key protagonist was most probably Plantard, its General Secretary, although its nominal head ("President") was André Bonhomme. The choice of the name, "Sion" was based on a popular local feature, a hill south of Annemasse, known as 'Mont Sion'.[1] The accompanying title to the name was Chevalerie d'Institutions et Règles Catholiques d'Union Independante et Traditionaliste: this forms the acronym CIRCUIT and translates as "Knighthood of Catholic Rule and Institution and of Independent Traditionalist Union." The Statutes and Registration Documents of the Priory of Sion were deposited on 7 May 1956, while the first issue of its journal Circuit is dated 27 May 1956 (in total, twelve numbers of the journal appeared). Considering the political instability of the French Fourth Republic, the objectives of the journal were regarded with suspicion by the local authorities. It was indicated as a "Bulletin d'Information et Défense des Droits et de la Liberté des Foyers HLM" ("News Bulletin for the Defence of the Rights and the Freedom of Council Housing"). Indeed, some of the articles took a political position in the local Council elections. Others attacked and criticized property developers of Annemasse. It also opposed the gentrification of the area. The offices of the Priory of Sion and the journal were at Plantard's council flat. The articles of the Priory of Sion as indicated in its Statutes desired the creation of a monastic order, but the activities of the Priory of Sion bore no resemblance whatsoever to the objectives as outlined in its Statutes as noted by the Sub-Prefecture of St Julien-en-Genevois. Article VII says that its members are expected, "to carry out good deeds, to help the Catholic Church, teach the truth, defend the weak and the oppressed". There is ample evidence that it had several members, as indicated by the numerous articles contained in its journal Circuit, written by a number of different people. Towards the end of 1956 the association had aims to forge links with the local Catholic Church of the area involving a school bus service run by both the Priory of Sion and the church of St Joseph in Annemasse. [edit] The Hoax The association was dissolved sometime after October 1956 but intermittently revived for different reasons by Plantard between 1962 and 1993 in name and on paper only. A letter at the Sub-Prefecture of St. Julien-en-Genevois indicates that Plantard had a criminal conviction as a con man. From the 1960s, a series of hypotheses and unproven historical associations became attached to the name Priory of Sion. These bear no relation to the origins of the 1956 association. The Priory of Sion is considered "dormant" by the Sub-Prefecture because it has indicated no activities since 1956. According to French law, subsequent references to the Priory bear no legal relation to that of 1956 and no one other than the original signatories are entitled to use its name in an official capacity (though André Bonhomme played no part since 1956, he officially resigned in 1973 when he heard that Plantard was linking his name with the association; therefore no one is around to use the name officially). Plantard originally hoped that the Priory of Sion would become an influential cryptopolitical irregular masonic lodge (similar to P2) dedicated to the restoration of chivalry and monarchy, which would promote Plantard's own claim to being a legitimate pretender to the throne of France. In the 1960s, Plantard began writing a manuscript and produced "parchments" (created by his friend, Philippe de Cherisey) that Father Bérenger Saunière had supposedly discovered whilst renovating his church in Rennes-le-Château. These forged documents alluded to the survival of the Merovingian line of Frankish kings. Plantard manipulated Saunière's activities at Rennes-le-Château in order to "prove" his claims relating to the Priory of Sion. Between 1961 and 1984 Plantard contrived a mythical pedigree of the Priory of Sion claiming that it was the offshoot of the monastic order housed in the Abbey of Sion, which had been founded in the Kingdom of Jerusalem during the First Crusade and later absorbed by the Jesuits in 1617. The mistake is often made that this Abbey of Sion was a "Priory of Sion", but there is a difference between an abbey and a priory. Calling his original 1956 group "Priory of Sion" undoubtedly gave Plantard the later idea to claim that his organization had been historically founded in Jerusalem during the Crusades when meeting the author Gérard de Sède during the early 1960s - this fabrication by Pierre Plantard was part of his literary deal with de Sede when they began collaborating during the early 1960s in a series of published books. Furthermore, it is reported that letters in existence dating from the 1960s written by Plantard, de Cherisey and de Sede to each other confirm that the three were engaging in an out-and-out confidence trick, describing schemes on how to combat criticisms of their various allegations and how they would make-up new allegations to try and keep the whole thing going. These letters (totalling over 100) are in the possession of French researcher Jean-Luc Chaumeil, who has also retained the original envelopes. Jean-Luc Chaumeil during the 1970s was part of the Priory of Sion cabal, and wrote books and articles about Plantard and the Priory of Sion before splitting from it during the late 1970s and exposing Plantard's past in French books. In order to give credibility to the fabricated lineage and pedigree, Plantard and de Cherisey needed to create "independent evidence". So during the 1960s, they deposited a series of forged documents, the so-called Dossiers Secrets d'Henri Lobineau or "Secret Dossiers of Henri Lobineau", at the Bibliothèque nationale de France, in Paris. Therefore, people who set out to research the "Priory of Sion" would come across these fake documents at the Bibliothèque nationale. One of those researchers was Henry Lincoln.
Dippiey 05-30-06, 12:06 PM	First of all I will say happily that I am indeed a Christian. I play guitar for my youth band, act in our youth drama team, and I am particularly active in my church. I have been playing DnD since 2nd grade and I don't hide that. My congregation still loves and respects me, and I adore them equally. You putting all christians in the same group offends me deeply, because I fall asleep praying for people like you. I don't mean to sound religiuose but you brought up religion. My church doesn't judge people like that, and we don't expect to be judged. So next time you go on an insulting spree, narrow your targets a bit please. We never did anything to you, some overly religious person who doesn't understand christianity did. DnD is a stupid game. You don't need to get so offended by people being ignorant about it. It is natural human tendancy to get scared and jump to conclusions. That is all Christians are guilty of. Sorry for being human.
hmmmm 05-30-06, 12:14 PM	Please people read the Code of Conduct (Its in my sig if you can't find it) and stop this noncense posting.
Witch 05-30-06, 12:15 PM	Several things can be conceived however that would prove D&D to be a bad thing. a) Scientific studies show that agression and violence in movies leads to imitative behavior, or at least slight influencing. This could be expanded towards D&D, but seperate studies would be required. Note that this does not mean you will go out and kill people - it means a slight increase in agression, and not specifically for "you", but on average. b) Sloth. When you're playing D&D, you're playing a game, and hence not working for the good of mankind. This is another valid argument, however, most christians play games, which are less vehemently opposed.
rogue_lettuce 05-30-06, 12:34 PM	Reductio Ad Hitlerum.
Tristan 05-30-06, 01:04 PM	its not christians who do it, its ignorant christians just like how its ignorant non-christans who think christians are all the same.
Syd_Galion 05-30-06, 01:57 PM	For all you atheist out there.... How can you not believe in something that doesnt exist?