Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yojimbo99 10-22-04, 11:16 PM	Hey, I am a christian, but I want to make a paladin. Anybody have some ideas how I could get my DM to let me make a Christian Paladin? And, yes, it is that big of a deal. I wont even fake worshipping a false(manmade) god.
allenchan 10-22-04, 11:19 PM	paladins need not worship gods, they can simply represent the virtues of good. So, simply ignore that part of the character sheet and make no referenses to it in game, and hopefully you arent playing in FR. ps: its not you its your character
yojimbo99 10-22-04, 11:22 PM	Oh, thanks. How does this effect sell-like abilities?
Thorak 10-22-04, 11:39 PM	Hey, I am a christian, but I want to make a paladin. Anybody have some ideas how I could get my DM to let me make a Christian Paladin? And, yes, it is that big of a deal. I wont even fake worshipping a false(manmade) god.Careful. Religious topics are a violation of the CoC, because they inevitably become flamewars and offensive.
yojimbo99 10-22-04, 11:52 PM	Oh , sorry. Didn't mean to offend anyone, was just asking about any modifications or anything I could use.
Midget_Messiah 10-22-04, 11:57 PM	Ehh.... This might be tough.. I'm going to try and help you out, but don't hate me for trying. If anyone else is reading this, know that this is going to have a bit of a christian predisposition to it: If that offends you, don't read it. First off, I'm going to make an observation, so take this medicine with a spoonful of sugar. You're playing a game where dragons and demons are prevalent, where sorcerers conjure strange creatures through magic, and where beings that aren't "God's children" are just as prevalent as human beings, who remain "unclaimed" as far as having a racial deity is concerned. I'm sure that you've gotten over those things, otherwise you wouldn't even be playing this game in the first place. That stated, you should know that the people who made this game were really trying to make a ficticious world for your imagination and inspiration to run wild through. The deities that you'll undoubtedly encounter throughout this game will be vast in number and variety. Your paladin is part of this scheme, this fantasy world, and so not only will this christian knight of yours have to come to terms with other faiths, but to an extent you'll have to come to terms with your own faith as well. The world is full of good people from a nigh-endless number of paths in life, from religions that christianity as a whole may have issues with, but they're still good people. Faith is something that's so deep in people, and to say that somebody's faith is wrong is like taking a hammer to their spirit... It's not something that should be spoken about casually and with a closed mind and heart. Unfortunately our faith has done that countless times in history, but you and I both (should) know that we were given a mind of our own, free will, a choice. A choice to worship god, a choice to hold those commandments dear, even a choice to shun it all - We're the pinnacle of his creations because of this: Our souls, minds and hearts belong to us, but we share them with God and each other as christians. The tenants of christianity (as far as I know them) revolve around love and compassion, not pointing our finger at those we foolishly deem wrong. The commandments tell us to hold dear the virtues of honesty, faithfulness to God, spouse and family, to be compassionate to our neighbors, and to open our arms. The good that our religion should embody doesn't revolve around self-righteous destruction, but taking in our fellow christians and even non-christians with love, understanding and open arms. Whether you read a bible or not, it's just a book - A christian life upholds the teachings of Christ and the laws given by the Commandments, those are the only things that are important. If your paladin follows these ideals, then he should be an understanding, loving and open-minded person. Blatant acts of evil should be disciplined, not punished, and forgiveness should be a cornerstone of his faith... If you're as devout a christian as you've presented yourself to be, then you'd do well to follow this doctrine as well. Look, you're not going to burn in hell for roleplaying a paladin who worships Heironeous or Lathander or whatever. YOU are not the paladin, you are yourself. You know your faith, you respect, worship and love God (I hope). Don't fall into the stain of our religion that nay-says and points fingers; uphold the faith and open your eyes and heart to goodness. To an extent, you can even reflect your own feelings through your paladin and get closer to your own faith and God. If your paladin is compassionate, open-minded and faithful to his religion, then you can work closer towards that goal through him - He'll be like a facet of empathy for you, and maybe in life you'll ask yourself "What would my paladin do here? What would I do here? How can I become a better christian here?" and so on. If all else fails and your DM won't let you become a CHRISTIAN paladin for any number of reasons, just heave a sigh and pick out a god - You don't even need a god for the paladin, he can just uphold the ideals of good. If the DM is being a prick about it, just ignore it and go along with the game books, and if you're still incomfortable about it, have a reasonable conversation with the guy over it. Talk to him and clear this up, don't let it boil up in your head. Remember, this is just a game, it shouldn't be taken so seriously. If the paladin stuff won't work out, just pick another class or skip on the game entirely, maybe the whole setup just doesn't click with you, but by all means don't get bitter about it... Hate and Ignorance lead to horrible things. Be cool and understanding about this stuff. It's a touchy topic, and I've tried not to offend anyone, especially you, but someone's gotta get their hands dirty in order to clear up the muck and grime of the world. Godspeed guy, nice to see that there's still some light in this ever-darkening world of ours either way. Keep your heart and arms open, and don't get ****** because some guy with a heart of gold has a god with a few extra arms or eyes :g:
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:00 AM	Hi yojimba, I'm a christian too and i always play paladins as christians as well. I'm creating a campaign setting that bases Paladins on christian ideals and values. As a result, there is only God in this setting. I really thought i was the only one that made christian based Paladin Characters. :D I'm glad to see i'm not the only one...
Midget_Messiah 10-23-04, 12:06 AM	(see above post of mine, this is like a typo post...)
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:11 AM	Thanks Midget Messiah. I will try to incorporate these things into my gaming experience. Yeah, I was pretty worried I was the only christian who was going to be on this sight, but it looks like my fears are unfounded.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:11 AM	Hi Yojimba, I'm a Christian too and i like playing christian paladins. I'm creating a campaign setting that base the paladins on christian values and ideas. It's unique because it has elves, drawfs, and other races worshipping one God, which isn't a norm in Dungeons and Dragons. I'm glad to see that there are other players that enjoy the idea of a Christian Paladin. i'm sure your Dm could let you do it if you discuss it with him; the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons is Role Play and pretty much role play can be anything. I mean when you role play, your doing it for fun and enjoyment. That's what I feel anyway about the subject......sorry if I offend anybody
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:12 AM	Oh crap.....I just accidently double posted.............. :mymy:
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:14 AM	By the way, Nice post Midget.... :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:16 AM	Thats cool. Is it kind of like Archangel mixed with D&D or something?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:24 AM	I guess.....I never played Archangel.... Here is the Setting. (from what i've made so far) Setting: The Crusades(Not the actually one in history, just borrowing some ideas and a little from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period) Basically it will have: -epic army vs. army battles -Some fantasy based off of actual history -And Powerful Paladins......... :D Actually the reason why the Paladins will be powerful is due to the fact that they are given a Divine Rank.......... :eek: As a result, Paladins will be a special class in the game and in order to become one, you have to go through a long and difficult process. The good news is that some of the Good Npc's helping you are paladins and will deal with certain bad Npc's that will be far more powerful than the player characters. Bad Npc's will have a Divine rank as well. Still working on it though.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:29 AM	Oh, I have never played Archangel, either. I just know it is a game where you go around beating the stuffing out of demons, and converting people. Your campaign sounds cool. Are clerics prestige classes, too?
Kessalin Talira 10-23-04, 12:31 AM	Google for a d20 supplement called Testament... it might be just what you're looking for.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:37 AM	Clerics are regular, I love paladins so that's why I made them special. My campaign has demon smashing in it. Don't know about converting people because in the campaign setting world, everybody loves God and the Paladins are the equivilant to a Jedi Knight(just using that as an example) The Testament thing sounds good, might try that.....thank you for the suggestion Kess.
Sucineri 10-23-04, 12:39 AM	I have to talk from the other side of the fence..and if I offend anyone..I am neutral evil so I don't care, I am not TRYING to offend..but if I do..don't care. So you are basically saying that nobody's beliefs other than yours are right..what narrowminded bullcrap. If you are going to have a game with paladins based off of christianity then you SHOULD allow judaism, hinduism, islam, budism, etc. Otherwise you are incredibly narrowminded and I would HATE to be anywhere near your game. Because lets face it..you don't want to play a fantasy game that has all these 'false' religions..yet you want to play a realistic game which is MORE of a fantasy by saying every religion but yours doesn't exist. Anyway, I am done.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:40 AM	Heck, I even have the idea of Angelic summonings being thought of as well. For Example, one of the major NPC Paladins is able to summon the ArchAngel Micheal and open a can of divine whoop(beep) upon a legion of foes..... :D
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:42 AM	Well, I don't mean to be narrowminded....It's just that's how most of the campaign is setup. sorry if that offends anybody.....
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:45 AM	Yeah, I would allow other religions. Sucineri, you said Christians were unloading a bunch of **** about how everyone else' views are wrong, but didn't you just tell us our views are wrong becuase we aren't the same as you? Maybe I misunderstood your post.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 12:49 AM	Well there probably would be other religions But the thing is that in this setting... This isn't the only Crusade that has happened. Part of the background to the setting involves previous Crusades made against various faction. For example, Paladins were sent to extinguish a barbarian uprising..... The Result: Barbarians were disbanded and one of their most powerful warriors was converted to the Paladin cause. Well actually, he became an officer of one of the Main Npc Paladin characters....
Sucineri 10-23-04, 12:55 AM	I am an Atheist..so I am more in the middle here, I don't follow any religion at all, but when one religion calls another religion wrong I think is it crap. I wont even fake worshipping a false(manmade) god. YOU don't have to fake worshipping a god. Your CHARACTER worships the god, not you. You are not your character. To me it is like you are saying that any deity (in a game) is wrong because it doesn't match your 'real' god. But that leads me to wondering if you think OTHER people's 'real' gods are wrong as well. Only gods I can think of are 'God' (which doesn't have a name that I am aware of), 'Buddha', and 'Vishnu'. So will you allow Paladins of these other "false" (to you) gods, or not? And if you DO allow other Paladins, are you going to give them equal respect that you give YOUR god, or are you just going to consider them heathens? And I am completely serious here.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:00 AM	Well this setting is sorta alternate from normal Dungeons and Dragons. EVERY SINGLE PALADIN in the setting follows the Christian base and ideals. So there is no Tyr, Torm, etc....etc.... Although, that would make for an intersting subplot...... plus not everything is fine and dandy on the good guy side either. Like for example, There are some Clerics or maybe a corrupt Pope that wants only complete power and are using the church to cover their foul crimes. Again, another subplot
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:00 AM	The gods in D&D are made to be false. God's name is Jehovah, also known as YHWH.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:03 AM	I trear all humans with the same respect.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:04 AM	Again another example of more subplots. One of the Main Paladin Character's wife use to be an extreme heretic; due to this many people look at her with distrust and fear. subplots are fun
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:04 AM	I treat people with respect as well.
Kessalin Talira 10-23-04, 01:05 AM	Testament is basically Biblical D20. From the little bit of looking I just did, it looks like there might be a lot of mechanical information that can be converted. Also, the Book of Exalted Deeds has some information that could apply to a Christianity-influenced game. Saint and Risen Martyr both come to mind. The Manual of the Planes, for 3.0, has information about creating monotheistic religions, that might be of some use as well. A little more on topic, though... I, personally, don't think you'll have a very easy time of it if your DM runs a published campaign world like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. All the published worlds have deities that take care of certain aspects of existence, and trying to introduce a deity that incorporates ALL of them isn't really feasible. Besides, what Domains would this deity have? Some particularly zealous individuals would say "All of them". Divine Rank? 20? What about the Elves, whose ORAL histories can go back further than the entirety of human history, written or spoken? A race whose oldest members, if alive on Earth, would have been spectators at the battle of Hastings. Corellon is only DR 19. If it works out for you, great, but all things considered: unless it's a homebrew world, I'd say there's not much chance of it. Not unless you're willing to be satisified with your faith being a splinter of the actual one, that either hasn't taken hold in the DM's world, DIDN'T take hold in the DM's world, or just isn't well known overall. I had a player that, at one time, wanted to do the same thing. I told him it would be much like I just described and he was alright with that.
Sucineri 10-23-04, 01:06 AM	YHWH..pronounced as 'Yaw Way'..right? And thanks for the info on Jehova. Anyway..on with the Paladins only being christian..do you have some kind of title for paladin-equivalents for other faiths..or will you not believe that they are as devout as christians?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:08 AM	Yeah, I know I'm making so much work for me but what the hey. It's role play and the only thing role play is limited by is your imagination. This is more of a hobby, plus I always imagined Paladins as christians.... :)
Sucineri 10-23-04, 01:18 AM	Well yeah..realistically Paladins were based off of christian crusaders..but there are still rough equivalents in pretty much every other religion.
VeritaS 4 15 6 10-23-04, 01:22 AM	bust out the -=][=-nquisition in game and kill everyone.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:24 AM	plus this setting is almost like the real Crusades: The Paladins who would be the Crusaders are following the mindset of the actually crusaders back then. Basically it's all one big fight for the "Holy Grounds"
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:27 AM	Well one of the Main characters is an Inquistor..... :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:29 AM	I still see the other paladins as paladins, but just for different purposes or reasons as me. Yeah, YHWH is pronounced yaw way. Yeah, I kind of figured it would be difficult to use my own faith as my paladin's faith. Wasn't paladin the muslim's word for the crusaders?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:30 AM	I did not know that yojimba if that is a true fact.....wow
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:34 AM	I am not 100% sure, but pretty sure of that. Could be wrong. Look it up first, before you take my word for it.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:43 AM	I know that the word "Paladin" has some reference to Charlmane(sp) at least that's what I heard. But you might have given me a new idea for what the bad guys refer to the paladins as. Thanks again Yojimba.. :D
Metatron777 10-23-04, 01:44 AM	And Verita, nice reference to the Inquisition....I almost forgot about them :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:59 AM	Hey, if you need help making your campaign, I am more than willing to help.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 02:10 AM	I appreciate that very much Yojimba, what parts could you help me with?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 02:22 AM	I have most of the Main NPC's planned out, I just need to fine tune some of their backgrounds and then I'm all set in the story department. Here are some of the Main Npcs: Alen Chizar-Human Paladin(Escaflowne reference indeed) Cara K Shar-Half Elf Paladin(Alen's wife) Deathmaster Thane-Human Barbarian: Officer to Alen Lamir Brians-Human Paladin Kitsune-Fox: Officer to Crimson Lady Rose De'Arcia-Half Dragon: Officer to Cara K Shar Balmung Azure Sky- Half Celestial Hound Archon Paladin Morgana Fahreniss-Human Paladin at first...... Gaiden-Construct: Officer to Crimson Winter-Half Dragon Paladin Crimson-Human Paladin Villains: Demi-Lich(name pending) Evil Assimar(Name pending) Oda Nobunaga(still rethinking at the moment)
Callista 10-23-04, 02:26 AM	Yipes, careful, you people, before you turn this into a Religion debate and get the thread locked!! I'm a Christian myself, and while I have no problem with RPing characters who worthip fictitious deities, I would like to see how the mechanics of a single-deity D&D world might work out. I'm not sure whether D&D can be modified to fit a monotheistic viewpoint, but I don't see any reason not to try. Can't hurt, and if it doesn't work, go back to the normal D&D rules. Rule of thumb when gaming with people of other faiths: No matter what your opinion, and whether or not you think yours is the only one that's right (some ideas are mutually exclusive, so naturally if you believes something's true you might also believe that other ideas aren't true), respect other people's beliefs. Faith and friendships are more important than a game. For playing a Christianesque Paladin in a normal-setting D&D world, I would simply have him played as a paladin with a devotion to Good in the abstract. Note that D&D deities are not omnipotent; so you can have your paladin have a belief in and dedication to an all-powerful force of Good. You'd keep the flavor of any setting better that way, I think, than if you said he was a "paladin of YHWH". Your Paladin powers would be unchanged. I don't see anything about the PHB description of a paladin that wouldn't apply. Also: Before you play, establish in your mind how your paladin reacts to those who are followers of Good-aligned gods. Does he think they are misguided? Worshipping only a small part of the true God? Or even (if you want the Crusader stereotype) unwittingly or knowingly serving the cause of Evil (remember, your Detect Evil won't show them up as evil)? Be sure that, whatever you choose, it will not interfere overmuch with the other players or the completion of the quests your DM sets up for you. Playing a Paladin is hard enough to do without making enemies; playing one with such a strict concept as what you're thinking of is a truly Herculean effort. If you are at all doubtful as to whether you'll be able to pull it off, just give your character a different class. After all, a Fighter or Ranger can be just as idealistic and LG as a paladin; and though a paladin is especially equipped for fighting evil, other classes can learn to do so quite as well. Class doesn't determine personality--hey, you could have a LG rogue with the same personality as a LG paladin if you wanted to. Your imagination is the only limit. Good luck!
Metatron777 10-23-04, 02:30 AM	Very good point Callista, I'm not trying to offend anybody at all.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 02:44 AM	I thought of one alternate way to deal with the other deities in DnD: You would have Torm, Tyr, Lethander, etc...etc. Except that they are not gods. Instead they are humans who accidently/got lucky/discovered a way that gave them the powers that they possesse. So the deities, according to this campaign setting of mine, are just humans who gained incredible powers. I had the idea come to me in school one day....
Yade 10-23-04, 03:40 AM	Separation of D&D and religion.
Sir Todd 10-23-04, 05:28 AM	I will start out by saying, I too am a christian gamer. playing as christians in a game is great, but perhaps should only be done if the world already has christianity as an established religion. Our faith didn't spring into exsistance whole cloth. It was born from the Jewish faith. Jesus IS the messiah of the Jews. This is what all Christians believe. The son of God came first to the Jews to whom God made a pact. His teaching as they are written were delivered to them. He is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. After he defeated death he sent his disciples out to the gentiles. Only after the Jews played their part did he send the disciples to us. Why? God clearly wanted it to happen this way. So would it not make sense to start at the begining if you wish to include God in an exsisting fantasy world? There is too much history ignored by simply being christian in a world without any christianity. Perhaps you could be the first. Be the Abraham of this ficticious world. perhaps a pact was made thru your Paladin, to become the father of a new religion among the pagan faiths. It would be an incredible roleplaying chalenge. But obviously would need GM approval.
Rntaboy 10-23-04, 09:25 AM	I see this a fairly siily. I find it very hard to believe that any higher power would feel spurned by one of their followers playing a role-playing game, based in a completely different realm, where the character being played worships a ficticous god. The effect of one's god on a character in some cases in this game is tremedous, in others it is non-existant, it is all based on how you play it. I would find it terribly silly if after a few session playing as a character who worships Pelor, the god of the sun (Sun, Healing, Good), you suddenly found your beliefs of your religion shaken. By the same token, would you not play Age of Mythology on your computer, sheerly because your character is made to worship a greek god in it?
Rntaboy 10-23-04, 09:28 AM	I thought of one alternate way to deal with the other deities in DnD: You would have Torm, Tyr, Lethander, etc...etc. Except that they are not gods. Instead they are humans who accidently/got lucky/discovered a way that gave them the powers that they possesse. So the deities, according to this campaign setting of mine, are just humans who gained incredible powers. I had the idea come to me in school one day.... They got lucky enough to be as powerful as a god? Seems pretty blasphemous to me.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:53 PM	Any thing you need help on I guess. Dude, Oda Nobunaga promoted christianity in his domain, so he should be a good guy.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 12:59 PM	I don't play age of mythology.
Hero of Sshamath 10-23-04, 01:28 PM	I know that for 1e and 2e there were supplements that involved the Crusades...(Speaking historically, not religiously) so, therefore, there are undoubtedly supplements for 3.xe on the subject. Look into it...Google is your friend! :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:32 PM	So it is just 1 kingdom fighting anothrer for religious reasons? I know 2nd edition had stuff about the mongols as orcs, and gobbos.
Callista 10-23-04, 02:04 PM	I see this a fairly siily. I find it very hard to believe that any higher power would feel spurned by one of their followers playing a role-playing game, based in a completely different realm, where the character being played worships a ficticous god. The effect of one's god on a character in some cases in this game is tremedous, in others it is non-existant, it is all based on how you play it. I would find it terribly silly if after a few session playing as a character who worships Pelor, the god of the sun (Sun, Healing, Good), you suddenly found your beliefs of your religion shaken. From what I know of my own fellow Christian gamers, the ones who would prefer not to put down a god's name on their character sheets aren't doing it because "God will smite us if we don't" or "I'll no longer be a Christian". It's more of a conscience thing; it makes them uncomfortable to pretend to do something they'd rather die than do in real life. Kind of like a person who refuses to play an evil character who kills babies for fun, on the grounds that it would creep him out to even pretend to do something that repugnant to him.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 02:32 PM	Yep. Exactly right. Same reason I feel wierd about playing a wizard, sorcerer, druid, or rogue.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 04:02 PM	Oda Nobunaga promoted Christianity in his domain? I did not know that, well Oda Nobunaga was planned to be bad at first, but then half-way through the campaign he becomes good. Lone-wolf type good though.. But I did not know that about Oda Nobunaga....
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 04:17 PM	Yeah, I have studied Japan since I was nine, and he is one of my role models.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 04:25 PM	That's neat to know......I feel bad for Oda Nobunaga and how he is protrayed in the Onimusha series..... I thought of a new idea for my campaign. Class based Requirements: Ex: To be able to multiclass as a Wizard, you would have to gain a book of magic and study it to learn the basics. But becareful, if the Inquisition finds out what your doing then you better hightail it outta town before they catch you. :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 04:32 PM	Nice.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 04:54 PM	if you want to be a rogue then go to a thieves guild and get trained. But then, You would have to worry about the town guards arresting you for trying to break the law and the theives guild only operates during the night(because everybody is oh so asleep) You wanna be a Cleric? Join the church and learn from its teaching. I actually plan on the campaign starting like this: You character starts out as a teenager/kid(sorta like in Fable) and basically there is no combat in this phase whatsoever. This first half is pure role play and depending how you do, your class will be determine for you (just like it is explained in the example above). Then the during the training part is when you would be introduced to the fighting and whatnot; this establish background for your training. And if your particular about a class, then there is an option to start as an adult.....But you miss some juicy background story and some things that could unlock the paladin class..... :D Also, i plan for the player characters to encounter most of the Main Npc during this growing up phase. It'll be quite some time before the actually Crusades start because the First Act is the playing character's growing up. I really think that adds to the Role playing aspect. Plus, each core class will act differently towards it's chosen path plus options for both good and bad side.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 05:00 PM	Cool.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:04 PM	Another example of this feature: Once you learn how to be a Rogue, you'll do a mission where you have to steal a valubale figurine from this old man. Turns out this "old man" is a former wizard who gaveup his powers years ago so he wouldn't be hunted down by the Inquisition. Instead of calling the guards he ends up going into a long talk about magic and give some insight about the Inquisition. When he goes off to prepare some tea, you can search in living room and find in the bookcase by the window.....A book that talks about magic and how to learn it. This unlocks the Wizard class to be used in multiclassing... Clerics unfortunately, never have this encounter..... Wanna be a bard? Go buy a lute and learn how to play...... :D
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 05:13 PM	Cool. So alot of the classes are acessable through circumstance, huh?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:32 PM	Yeah....Every standard class starts out differently. And some classes have encounters that others don't All standard classes can be accessed through this feature.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 05:33 PM	So, what do you about prestige classes?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:34 PM	I was thinking of using this idea to gain feats too. For example: If you want Weapon Specilization in a Long sword; go buy one, and practices with it during combat or military barracks and eventually you'll earn the feat. Not sure about that though.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:36 PM	Uh.....that's a real good question....... Not sure how to do prestige classes......with the amount out there in the books........that would be hard to do.... I've already made too much work for me as it is... :D lol
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:41 PM	Of course....perhaps skills could come in handy for the prestige class. I might decide to add a library in the game that contains like alotta information on various topics. As a result, A mythology book could give an example of a assassine and some of it's technique. Wanna be a Blackguard? Study about them for they are the enemy of the church, perhaps fight a couple to observe them... Then if you ever fall from grace or decide to betray the Pope, you can use the knowledge you learned about the Blackguards to become one....
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 05:43 PM	What about hexblades, or something like that? They would be evil wouldn't they? How would you start in that class?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:44 PM	Or you could always pull a "Highlander" You could be a Cleric who fell from grace and one day, as your walking away from the church you meet a mysterious warrior clad in black. you engage in this "random" fight and the foe inparts Knowledge of the Blackguard prestige class to "taint" you with their horrific secrets. Why would he do that? To drive you insane as you see evil images appear in your mind everytime you try to sleep. :D Just an idea....
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:45 PM	Good question about the Prestige classes....I don't know how I would work them out..... :confused:
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 05:52 PM	Maybe just incur a level penalty. Like they train in a certain branch of their class, and lose one level from the starting class. Say if you were a barbarian who wanted to become a bear warrior, you could become one after you meet the prerequisites, and lose 1 level in your barbarian levels or something. Just a thought.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 05:56 PM	I don't know, I don't like level penalty because.....the point of an rpg is to gain levels beside role play. Good thought though...
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 06:00 PM	Yeah.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 06:16 PM	Also the Campaign itself is divided into four views: Gunt: Just follow normal Dnd Customization and already start as an adult: You will participate in all major battles but will not be able to fight the Main Villians or the BBEG at the end. Paladin: You are able to participate in all major battles and will be able to fight the Main Villians or the BBEG at the end. Evil: Go through Role play beginning and after doing the reqs for a class, advance to second act of campaign. You will participate in all major battles and will be able to fight the GGG(Goody Goody Guy) at the end. Netrual(sp) Go through Role Play beginning and unlock classes; You can choose to be either good or bad, participate in all major battles, fight either BBEG or GGG at the end. Only path that can unlock the Paladin Class and be able to face the Main Villian. Can also to choose no side at all. What do ya think?
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 06:35 PM	Very cool.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 06:55 PM	Yup, I just made my life hard by coming up with the thought of making this campaign setting?
Garith Dragonborn 10-23-04, 06:58 PM	I guess.....I never played Archangel.... Here is the Setting. (from what i've made so far) Setting: The Crusades(Not the actually one in history, just borrowing some ideas and a little from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period) Basically it will have: -epic army vs. army battles -Some fantasy based off of actual history -And Powerful Paladins......... :D Actually the reason why the Paladins will be powerful is due to the fact that they are given a Divine Rank.......... :eek: As a result, Paladins will be a special class in the game and in order to become one, you have to go through a long and difficult process. The good news is that some of the Good Npc's helping you are paladins and will deal with certain bad Npc's that will be far more powerful than the player characters. Bad Npc's will have a Divine rank as well. Still working on it though. thats a cool campaigne setting, but pls be aware that the original crusades were faught against muslims for religeous grounds. may i suggest instead have a good vs. demon/devil war
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 06:58 PM	yeah, probably.
White rabbit 10-23-04, 07:22 PM	Metatron777- It's an ambitious project you've undertaken. But an entire world with only one religion? That's a little farfetched to me. Even if you have one religion war with and destroy all other religions, there would still be schisms within the one that's left (Martinism, Baptism, etc.) And what about racial deities? It seems to me that the elves would give up on Correlon as quickly as the orcs would Grummsh (i.e. pretty darn unlikely). So what races would be open, and would they still be able to worship the Gods that, acording to their beliefs, created them? Now as for classes, you've severely limited even the core classes available from the PHB. Barbarians were disbanded (how do you disband a nation?). Bards are just traveling minstrels (how do you reconcile THEIR magic? It is arcane after all). Clerics are one of the few open classes here (though they would still have restrictions on them due to the strict nature of religion on this world). Druids are out because they worship nature. Fighters would be the only truely free class that weren't impeded in any way., Monks could POSSIBLY get off with the same restrictions that clerics would. Rangers are out for the same reasons that Druids are. Rogues are hunted, but at least they can still hide among the populous. Sorcerers as well as Wizards would be hunted as witches (and who wants that?). So what do we have class wise? Three, possibly four classes (depending on how you rule on Bards) open and free to walk the streets with their heads held high, two classes gone due to religious "differences", one that's been "disbanded", one that must operate in total secrecy (no change there, at least for some of them). two that are actively hunted by the world, and one "favored" above all others. That's pretty darn limiting. I can't make any comment on races since you've made almost no mention of them. And if I understand you correctly from your last post, Paladin:You will be able to participate in all major battles and be able to fight the main villians or BBEGs at the end. Paladins (and only Paladins) can even take part in the final confrontation? I don't know about you, but if I went through the whole campaign and couldn't take a shot at the BBEG, I'd be mighty ticked off. Now I can understand you wanting to bring your religion into your game, but monotheism doesn't work too well game mechanics wise, nor common sense wise for this system.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 07:32 PM	Seriously dude, I just wanna kick the **** out of demons. Maybe use that good vs demons/evil thing.
Aki Warren 10-23-04, 08:03 PM	Well, let me start off by saying that your campigian setting sounds wonderful and Mad respect to any DM who goes through the trouble of creating a homebrew world. Second, let I am Christain. I am a very...knowledgable christain in that I study it. I am also a NewAge Christian. Third, I play mostly evil characters, or Lawful Neutral. I refuse to be good, because I find being good to be boring, and I'm generally a good person in real life. Let me have an outlet. I would talk to your DM about it. Most DMs are pretty cool about certain things and religions. When you think about it, a religion is just a set of beliefs and if my PC decides that Hamtaro is going to take over the world one day, who is my DM to say he doesn't? So even if he says no, just come up with a Code that matches the commandments
Thorak 10-23-04, 08:21 PM	I have refrained from posting before now, besides my one little warning about the potential locking of the thread if it gets even a little out of hand at the beginning, because I have very firm beliefs, ones which will inevitably offend someone if I voice them. And, more than beliefs, historical facts. Hence, me commenting on the mechanics earlier may have offended, so I refrained. I'll make a few comments now, on the "one God" dynamic. Really, if you take an open-minded view about it, we almost have a one-God world today. Judaism branched off into Christianity, which branched off into Islam, but the God, in theory, remains the same. And Bhuddism theology accepts Christ as a Buddha, and if you see the Bhuddist faith as metaphorical and philosophical rather than literal (as many Bhuddists do) there's very little that's contradictory to the basic tenets of Christianity. However, all these faiths have significant dogmatic differences. And certain incidental beliefs which, even if they have the same root, have significantly different modern forms. Here's my suggestion, then; allow Christian-based faiths in D&D. But allow multiple variations. Kind of like the current schismatic version of Christianity, there are many distinct churches, all with different beliefs. Some will be similar, and ally themselves against the others. It's a relatively small dogmatic change, for instance, to go from a "kill the infidel beast!" version to a "violence is abhorrent" version. Look at Medieval, compared to Modern, Catholicism. That's ~600 years of linear history; if we wanted to compare two separate faiths, it would take less time from their split to potentially differentiate them that much, because each would be following a different path. You could have a lot of fun dealing with various schisms and, to your character's view, misinterpretations of the Faith. Heck, look to the various heretical churches that have sprung up over the centuries for ideas on new churches in the campaign; the Cathars may have been heretical, but they were Christian. While everyone in the campaign world would have slightly different views, and there would be a lot of religious conflict (just as there is in 'normal' D&D, if not more), they'd all be worshipping the same God. Just disagreeing with specifically how it should be done. If you can handle it, I'd also suggest 'corrupting' your character's faith a bit away from what you, personally, consider the true faith. Not in any significant ways, of course, but a little. Because then you can consider your version of Christianity to be the real Faith everything schismed off from, and have your character decide to try and bring his, and other's, beliefs back in line with the "old" ways (your personal faith). This has the advantage of you not favouring any single society as the "best" one because they're the ones with the "right" faith; if everyone's wrong is different ways, it's more interesting, IMHO. Of course, this is all just a possible suggestion. If it feels icky, don't do it, obviously.
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 08:50 PM	That does sound pretty cool, and as long as I can go crack some demonic skulls, I am pretty much happy.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 08:57 PM	Well you can get by with all the core classes, I just have to figure out everything still. And don't worry, there won't be no muslims. The early parts of the war will involve Human vs. Humans, then at one point, In a major battle. It becomes Human vs. Demons from then on in....
Metatron777 10-23-04, 09:03 PM	I can also make the neutral path take on the BBEG as well, it'll just have to be a little different. Like those on the Neutral path will fight an alternate BBEG or, do something that could help the Paladins tip the scale itself. Okay, I won't make it all one religion. The elves will have their relgion The dwarfs will have their religions And when I meant barbarians were disbanded, I should've mentioned that it wasn't every single barbarian but just a small uprising tribe.....sorry for confusion And like I said, the core classes will be playable, there will be ways for them to get through. Like Rangers could fill the role of Game Wardens(just an example) And there is a subplot that involves a couple members of the church turning a blind eye towards magic users........ plus certain races like elves and orcs can convert too....
Rntaboy 10-23-04, 09:37 PM	From what I know of my own fellow Christian gamers, the ones who would prefer not to put down a god's name on their character sheets aren't doing it because "God will smite us if we don't" or "I'll no longer be a Christian". It's more of a conscience thing; it makes them uncomfortable to pretend to do something they'd rather die than do in real life. Kind of like a person who refuses to play an evil character who kills babies for fun, on the grounds that it would creep him out to even pretend to do something that repugnant to him. Comparing something of such a vile nature as killing babies, and roleplaying a character who believes in (he doesn't have to worship lovingly. Look at the drow, few actually worship lolth, but nearly all fear her) a different god is a very narrow minded stream of thought. It is role-playing, you are playing a role. If you cannot handle disassociating yourself from a character you play, maybe you should play games like Uno. Seriously, I have a character with intelligence of 4, but that doesn't make me feel any dumber when I'm not playing him. And I would like to know why someone would feel comfortable playing a paladin over a wizard?
Metatron777 10-23-04, 09:44 PM	I like Paladins because they have that whole "Classic Knight in Shining Armor" thing and the fact that they fight for justice and good.
Rntaboy 10-23-04, 10:15 PM	And a wizard can't fight for good and justice? Unearthed Arcana did an awesome job of making Paladin's who are not lawful good. A paldin should not be forced to be good by human standards. If you are a pure evil race, you may see good actions (by human standards) as being evil.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 10:17 PM	I didn't say that wizards couldn't fight for justice and good. I JUST REALLY LIKE KNIGHTS AND THE WHOLE MEDEIVAL THING GOING ON Plus I love Merlin from the King Arthur myths :D And we all know that Merlin and Gandalf the White would make a very good tag team of magical might.... :D
White rabbit 10-23-04, 11:05 PM	The elves will have their relgion The dwarfs will have their religions And when I meant barbarians were disbanded, I should've mentioned that it wasn't every single barbarian but just a small uprising tribe.....sorry for confusion Okay, that makes a little more sense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning what your doing, just questioning if it's even feasable to create an entire world that worships one God. There will always be different accepted interpretations as well as cultural, societal, and even moral versions from person to person.
Metatron777 10-23-04, 11:07 PM	Yeah don't mind me, this is actually the first campaign I ever created in my life so I don't yet know how everything is suppose to work out.
Callista 10-24-04, 01:23 AM	Comparing something of such a vile nature as killing babies, and roleplaying a character who believes in (he doesn't have to worship lovingly. Look at the drow, few actually worship lolth, but nearly all fear her) a different god is a very narrow minded stream of thought. The character who role-plays killing babies isn't killing babies any more than the character who role-plays worshipping Lloth is actually worshipping her. However, to some Christians, worshipping anything other than the true God is just as vile as killing babies. (If given the choice, they'd probably worship a false god... but they'd rather die than do either one). Some people are very, very uncomfortable role-playing doing something that is totally anathema to everything they believe. I don't think that means they're bad role-players. I don't have a problem RPing a non-Christian character, but then, I wouldn't have a problem RPing an evil one, either. However, some people do, and respecting their convictions is part of what it means to be a Christian. Or, if you aren't a Christian, it's part of being a decent person and good fellow player/DM. My personal thought? If it's that important, have your player play a Paladin. With the paladin's limited healing capabilities, you'd get the same effect without having him tied to a god.
willmeddis 10-24-04, 01:32 AM	I'm an atheist (with leanings towards existensialism and humanism) and frown upon the practice of killing babies. However I'd happily skewer a few in a campaign. ******* noisey pooing machines. :D sorry erm - there was an important point to this thread ... pssst: St Cuthbert is the christian archetype ... you want red crosses and crussades - King Arthur style - go for the Cuth!
The Vorpal Tribble 10-24-04, 04:27 AM	Born again christian here *cackles as the ranks of believers swell within the gaming industry, their goal, to assimulate you all into our belief system! :rolleyes:* *cough* Ermmm, where was I... oh, just thought I might point you out to my DM's website. My current campaign is christian based, set around the year 1100 A.D. and its quite interesting and has alot of the details you've been talking about. Set in a sort of alternative earth where angels and demons battle on their hgiher battlegrounds, as us mortals must deal with the lesser beings and followers of devils such as goblins, ghosts, lamtu, sorcerers and other evil folk. As well he has details for playing a christian-based paladin. Can look at the website here: http://www.geocities.com/andrew_laffin/ As for playing a paladin, I never have because I find them dull. Magic-users likewise. My prefered alternative is psionics, which is perfectly Biblical. The honing and strengthening of the innate potential within ourselves. I love the entire feel of the psionic classes, and I play a psychometabolic psion in this campaign. At frst he wasn't going to allow psionics but once I showed him how well it fit he quickly changed his tune. He's catholic christian, while I'm a born-again christian (protestant) so his beliefs are a bit different, but we're good friends and is never a factor. I even wrote up my own religion type to play since this was before even Martin Luther, a sort of purist people who instead of praying to saints and such for intervention, they went into meditative trances, listening for God's will, giving Him their full attention. While doing so they gained new insight into their inner, God-given abilities and developed psi. He loved the concept, and so Mickle of the swedish fjords came into the game :)
Rntaboy 10-24-04, 08:45 AM	I don't believe in magic, but I have no problem playing a spell caster. If you don't feel comfortable worshipping some fake god in some fantasy game, then you should learn to feel comfortable when you get stuck on the Wall of Souls, because you can't be ressurected.
Sir Neil 10-24-04, 09:58 AM	I had to get rid of my pantheistic deities when I started running for a new group of players who were uncomfortable playing characters that worshipped alien gods. I demoted the deities to archangels, archdevils, and demon princes and tjanged their religions to different sects of one church or fiend cults, as appropriate. It was quite a bit of work, but it's the DM's job to create a playable world. White rabbit ...just questioning if it's even feasable to create an entire world that worships one God. *shrugs* It worked for Tolkien. Rntaboy ...you should learn to feel comfortable when you get stuck on the Wall of Souls, because you can't be ressurected. That rule only applies to the Forgotten Realms.
Callista 10-24-04, 02:56 PM	*shrugs* It worked for Tolkien. Now there's an idea. Basically, Tolkien's world had Illuvatar/Eru (omnipotent, single deity). However, he also had the Valar, which would be on a power level with D&D gods. The Valar were not gods, but were often worshipped as gods by the less enlightened. This sort of idea--a "main", omnipotent God, plus as many as you want of extremely powerful, immortal beings who can grant spells but are nevertheless limited, and thus not true deities--could be easily adapted to work with D&D. Worship can be changed to simply be "allegiance" to the champion of your race/class/alignment. You'd need to add another stat to your character sheet, though, in addition to the alignment and allegiance, to denote how the PC feels about the "main" God.
Metatron777 10-24-04, 05:09 PM	Vorpal I looked at you site and I was interested by it. Perhaps you can help me figure how to make the all of the core classes fit in with the whole churh/crusades thing...
Blackrazorblade 10-24-04, 05:38 PM	hi, i have feelings bout this topic and decided to butt in without readin it all due to time constraints, any woo i have always felt that a world with only one god would be limited as how would you explain evil clerics, blackgaurds, any druids, rangers or even to soem degree monks. i mean no offense to anyone but christianity has had soem periods where it was very unaccepting to non-christians so i have never felt that it would work to put "God" in my worlds. one of my friends is a devout born again and she asked me about the whole gods thing and i expalined how gods were made up as it was seen fit "o lookie we need a new god of healing" and how the closeest i had seen to instructions for worshipping them was 'there is a festival on x date in y month in the FR books, and i told her just cause i played an SOB of a cleric of cyric to bane and lastly to Asmondeus i don't actually worshipp devils or anything nor do i condone tryanny or baby killing, casting light spells on peoples eyeballs or anyhting else like that, i am an extemly moral person who loves puppys.
Rntaboy 10-24-04, 07:42 PM	You could be open-minded about it and focus on the aspects you feel your diety embodies, like if you see your good as having aspects of Good, strength, and healing, go for Pelor. If you see your god as one of valor, embodying good and law, go for heironeous. Or even better, you could have your character follow the god that suits him, not you. If he is af^%&ing half-orc cleric, worship Gruumsh. I would be amazed if you find yourself thinking about poking out your left-eye because you want to be closer to this ficticous diety. Be open-minded, not ignorant.
Xavori 10-24-04, 09:04 PM	Since I played for two years or so with Christian paladins (in a campaign in which my DM made it so only christians could actually survive or you would be called "evil" and that stuff, but that's my DM's fault :cool: ) I can give you many reasons why your DM WON'T let you play one, many of them I will set them as possible reasons due to my lack of knowledge of most of the religion itself. Clarification note for the sake of not comming to beat me up after reading my post: When I say "I'm not sure" or "I can't recall pretty well this..." or anything alike, it means literally that I'm not quoting the Bible or anything I'm actually mentioning! If I make a mistake, my bad, but don't come telling me that I'm saying bad things about this religion or that because I'm human and I have the RIGHT to make mistakes! Thank you! :) 1- If you are playing an orthodox Christian, then follow along the next reasons. If not, this post is pretty much useless :D 2- "Thou shalt not kill" that's one of the commandments... you can't kill, so what are you gonna do all the time you are using this guy? Subdual damage? It's pretty hard to use a paladin that way, or actually any character. 3- If I'm not mistaken, Christians think mages/wizard/spellcasting guys are Evil, as Evil as demons! So... not good if you are playing an spellcaster heavy populated world, such as Forgotten Realms, you would hate everybody there pretty much. 4- As many people said, Christians think that worshipping some other God it's as bad as any evil act :88E: and taking into account that in most worlds even farmers believe in some God then this paladin would even hate farmers! Now how is that fair! Can't you mess with guys of your own seize, huh?! Go fight Asmodeus or one of his buddys! :D <--- Hint, smiley showing that the last comment was being sarcastic or actually intended to be funny 5- Right now I can't think of anything else, besides the possibility that you could en up any session spending countless hours trying to interpretate the meaning of a single phrase in the Bible (pretty much what happens when you play with Rule-Lawyers! :teach: ), but this one isn't a fact nor I have some statistic of sorts to tell how often could this happen, just a possibility! These are my 2 cents, 3 silver, 8 gold and 5 platinum :P
Callista 10-24-04, 10:06 PM	Well, sure, if you wanna go Crusades-kill-the-Muslims-smite-the-heathens Lawful Stupid Christian paladin. I sure don't. Logically, as a Christian paladin, you'd attempt to convert those you could, leave alone those who wouldn't, and smite those who attacked the innocent thanks to their beliefs. "Thou shalt not kill" refers to murder, not battle or execution... plenty of battle stories in the Bible... Of course, a pacifist paladin would be a very interesting character concept--Christian or not. *adds to ever-lengthening list of Character Ideas To Try*
Rntaboy 10-24-04, 10:34 PM	Logically as a Christian paladin, you'd attempt to convert those you could, leave alone those who wouldn't, and smite those who attacked the innocent thanks to their beliefs. Please explain where you can derrive logic from anything based on spirituality. "Thou shalt not kill" refers to murder, not battle or execution... plenty of battle stories in the Bible... Maybe it is just a series of contradictions?
yojimbo99 10-24-04, 10:49 PM	No, it isn't contradictions. There are things such as Righteous Indignation, and judgement. Thou shalt not kill means don't go murdering babies or something like that. It doesn't mean you aren't aloud to defend your self, or your beliefs, property, loved ones, etc.
Xavori 10-24-04, 10:52 PM	Nicely said Rntaboy, "logic" doesn't apply to religion or spiritual things alike! If the Bible says that you can't "kill people" then you simply don't! But with this stuff we could get into arguing and ranting endlessly about our interpretation of the Bible, which is one of my reasons not to mix Christianism with a world like Forgotten Realms to set an example, so let's not discuss what we think this means, this topic isn't about that ;)
The Vorpal Tribble 10-24-04, 10:59 PM	Nicely said Rntaboy, "logic" doesn't apply to religion or spiritual things alike! If the Bible says that you can't "kill people" then you simply don't! But with this stuff we could get into arguing and ranting endlessly about our interpretation of the Bible, which is one of my reasons not to mix Christianism with a world like Forgotten Realms to set an example, so let's not discuss what we think this means, this topic isn't about that Its interesting how many here make a little snide comment and then say 'But thats not what we're talking about'. Just has to come out. *leaves in disgust*
Rntaboy 10-24-04, 11:34 PM	No, it isn't contradictions. There are things such as Righteous Indignation, and judgement. Thou shalt not kill means don't go murdering babies or something like that. It doesn't mean you aren't aloud to defend your self, or your beliefs, property, loved ones, etc. Who can make this sort of distinction? Would you say you, or anyone, is truly qualified to say what the true meaning of the bible is? As far as I would think, if there is anyone who can make this distinction, that being would not be human. Seriously. I am in no way kidding. Just because the bible says (paraphrasing) "and he shall take up serpants", does not mean that you should go buy a snake. The bible is not a dictionary, its meaning is most often not apparent in such an obvious manner. Not even taking into account how many times it has been translated, and how it was so often changed to fit the whims of rulers. Believe what you believe, but blind belief is ignorance.
Thorak 10-24-04, 11:41 PM	Please explain where you can derrive logic from anything based on spirituality. It's called "theology". We've been doing it for thousands of years. And, frankly, theology has a lot going for it. At least as much as science does. People put far too much "faith" in science; scientifically speaking, we still don't understand how evolution works, even remotely, we don't understand the particles the world is made up of, heck, we don't even understand gravity. There's hordes of theories, but hardly anything is actually proven. It's been conclusively shown, for instance, that there are fewer logical flaws and hiccups in Creationist theory than there are in Evolutionary theory. Sure, that's partially because they can fall back on "God did it, because he can do anything", but their argument, by their rules, is less flawed than evolutionary theory is by scientific rules. I'm not going to try and claim one or the other holds the absolute truth. I firmly believe they both hold parts of it, and that we won't achieve the next great steps forward until we can start to merge the two. They're not incompatible; many great scientists and mathematicians were Christian priests. Rene Descartes, for instance, was a Jesuit. IMHO, it's best to see faith as answering the question "why?", and science as answering the question "how?". It's all well and good to know that God created the Earth, and faith will tell us that. But it doesn't say how he did it; for that we look to science. The assumption being that, while God might not have physically molded the Earth out of the firmament, if he created the forces that would do so, he's just as much the creator as otherwise.
Rntaboy 10-25-04, 12:07 AM	Religion by its nature is a question faith, and belief without obvious proof. Logic is based on what can be reasoned given an appropriate amount of data. These two are mutually inexclusive.
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 12:17 AM	While I would love to finish this discussion, I don't think the moderators look so kindly upon it in a D&D forum. And yes, I know I am being a forum pally, but look at my signature.
Rntaboy 10-25-04, 12:58 AM	Yojimbo99, what is your name based on? Because if it is based on the title by Akira Kurosawa, that is terribly weak to make a forum named based on such an amazing movie.
Thorak 10-25-04, 09:20 AM	Yojimbo99, what is your name based on? Because if it is based on the title by Akira Kurosawa, that is terribly weak to make a forum named based on such an amazing movie. Is there some reason you're baiting the poor boy so unmercifully? It's against the CoC, by the way. So I suggest you desist. Not to mention there's a little thing called "homage" people pay to things they like, where they name their car, their kid, their boat, or their forum identity after the subject they wish to recognize. I fail to see how paying homage to a great movie is "weak". As for your other post; the difference is only in what each field considers "an appropriate amount of data". Arguments made in either field are perfectly valid, by either side's perspective, because logical validity has nothing to do with truth or reality, only the logic's inherent mechanics. And both religion and science would disagree that the other's logic is sound, because each is basing it on principles the other disagrees with. None of this makes either one "right", though. And I remind you; while you can claim all you want that there's little to no evidence to support the claims of religion, there's plenty of evidence science does acknowledge that it doesn't have a clue about, yet. For instance, scientific studies have shown that people can sense when they're being watched. There's no scientific explanation. Plenty of religions can explain it, though. Which, then, is the weaker discipline? Like I said before; Science asks "How does this work?", while Religion asks "Why does it work like that?". The two fields aren't mutually exclusive; they deal with entirely different things. It's like debating whether chemistry makes astrophysics irrelevant.
The_Fan 10-25-04, 10:52 AM	The ultimate failure of logic: It is impossible to prove via logic that there is not a miniature pink elephant in a top hat dancing the macarena on my bed.
Callista 10-25-04, 12:51 PM	*sigh* Y'know, I thought you all were more mature than this... Really, what does it take to accept that people have different opinions, and respect them for it, rather than taking a superior, "I'm-right-you're-stupid" attitude? Religion by its nature is a question faith, and belief without obvious proof. Logic is based on what can be reasoned given an appropriate amount of data. These two are mutually inexclusive. I suppose you meant "mutually exclusive", and I'll proceed on that assumption. Logic is not the basis of faith, as it is of science; but faith need not be, and usually is not, illogical. It matters a great deal whether or not you put your faith in something that is true--and how do you determine truth? Exactly: Logic. Though something you "take on faith" is probably not completely provable, it should not be illogical, either. Now that this thread has drifted completely out of the topic of D&D altogether... ::waits for thread to be locked::
Xavori 10-25-04, 06:39 PM	I said "Let's not talk about this anymore" after posting my own point of view because clearly the other guy posted HIS point of view, I post mine, so we are "even" and that's it, no need ot go further. Now it looks like people are actually discussing about logic and religion, the thread was okay so far, but now people are arguing about things that have nothing to do with the thread, which will lead to a locked topic :embarrass I guess this is the result of trying to make a post about religion (or related to religion in any way, not the autors fault in this case IMHO), each person with its own point of view, this things should be left to those old people that have read all the versions of the bible from top to bottom :) I'm done posting in this post.
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 06:58 PM	Actually it isn't named after the movie. If you know any Japanese it is translated as "bodyguard" or "guardian of the house". I had religious reasons for naming myself this. Are you that petty to make personal attacks against a 13 year old?
Metatron777 10-25-04, 07:22 PM	I think it's a cool name
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 07:34 PM	Thanks, dude.
The_Fan 10-25-04, 07:49 PM	Some people are just jerks like that and feel like the younger crowd is invading "their" turf. The fact that you're openly Christian only increases the likelihood of drawing flames. I at least still remember what it was like to be a 13 year old on the internet and don't see it my personal mission to rag on "n00bs."
Darth K'Trava 10-25-04, 07:55 PM	Actually it isn't named after the movie. If you know any Japanese it is translated as "bodyguard" or "guardian of the house". I had religious reasons for naming myself this. Are you that petty to make personal attacks against a 13 year old? It's a cool hame. Not that I'm familiar with the anime.... Please. Let's stop the flaming before the mods come and shut this thread down. It's an interesting thread. hate for it to get locked due to flaming. Thanks. On to the topic at hand..... Personally, I'd rather not play a Christian in a game. I see the game as an outlet from the real world. And I take my faith too serious to put into a fun game where it can be taken less serious than it is. That and I have friends who don't share the same beliefs as I do. And it's easier to play a ficticious setting with ficticious deities than strain any friendships. We like to have fun and relax and it's hard to do when you might step on toes. And I see a paladin worshiping Tyr, Torm, Pelor, or Lathander as being the character doing so, not me, the player. That is the MOST aspect to the whole thing. It's a ficticious character worshiping that god, not the real me. If you, the player, can make that difference, then you're ok. And, 'Tron (can't recall your full SN, sorry), your world sounds cool! ;) It's hard to do something like a fullblown homebrew world and such! My hat off to ya, dude! :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :tiphat:
Grox 10-25-04, 08:09 PM	The ultimate failure of logic: It is impossible to prove via logic that there is not a miniature pink elephant in a top hat dancing the macarena on my bed. More succinctly, that logic's usefulness is founded upon the correctness of the user's assumption that he has ALL the useful and relevant information about the subject matter in question before he/she even begins. Logic isn't very useful for situations where you are in vastly unfamiliar territory, feeling your way along in the dark, forced to make it up as you go. I don't know if I'd call it "the ultimate failure", though . . . it's not like it renders logic absolutely useless . . .
eRaz0r 10-25-04, 08:43 PM	The original poster wasn't asking for people to approve of his choice to play a Christian Paladin. He wanted to know how to get his DM to approve his choice. In answer : You'd have to convince the DM to make some big changes to his game-world, unless he's already planning on running the game on Earth or it's parallel. Think about it. There are reasons many fantasy worlds are not set on Earth, and do not address issues of real religions. Those reasons include the fact that real people take their religions seriously, and furthermore transplanting the circumstances which led to the rise of those religions can be problematic. Tell me - how do you propose to integrate the story of Jesus into the history of Faerun (or Greyhawk, or the DM's personal game-setting)? It's a game - and like a fictional fantasy novel, internal consistency is important for the purposes of believability, or immersion. Also, the miracles of Jesus, while incredibly impressive in our own world, are easily duplicated by some simple spells in DnD. Heck, a 9th level Cleric can do most of them. Some settings have Gods which walk the land next to mortals performing their own miracles. How does the teachings of your characters faith fit in with that ? If God is the one and only and all powerful, either the DM has to eliminate these other gods, or tone everything back to a level of uncertainty with respect to the real presence of the deities (similar to the real world, where one must take the presence/absence of deities on faith, because there are no verifiable miracles to demonstrate undeniably their (His) presence). If your DM is willing to do that, (and if it's the very start of a campaign in his own home-brew game setting, he might be), then you're ok. If not, then you have a couple of choices ... You could ask to play a) a world-jumper transplanted from Earth (probably by magical accident), say a Knight from the Crusades period. It's a stretch, but it explains why you have these beliefs and knowledge of Earths history and Jesus. It requires the DM to come up with a believable reason for your transplantation, and might be a bit much to swallow. b) A lone believer in "The One True God", who has come to this belief through careful study (or divine inspiration). He believes the Gods of the game world are simply aspects of a greater being who subsumes all of their powers, projecting different aspects depending on the beliefs of those to whom He appears. Why he does this is probably a mystery. Your character would be an integrated member of the game-setting, with internally consistent memories and a faith very similar to your own. Your character wouldn't strictly be a "Christian" since that requires the Christ, but it might be the closest in-game facimile that wouldn't disrupt the game too much. c) You could drop the whole thing and play something that isn't so close to home. Your faith is very personal, and playing a Christian paladin means you're willing to make a big deal about it in the game - which might annoy some of the group. Proselytization isn't always welcome, and your character might end up hijacking things away from the game into philosophical out of character discussions. That's not always fun. Now, what I'd like to point out is that there are an awful lot of christian people in the world, and some of them are fantasy authors. Many of them use non-earth settings with or without Gods of varying types and I'd wager few of them feel that writing these stories has eroded their faith any. C.S. Lewis, for example, is a pretty famous Christian author, and his Narnia series uses an obvious Christian theme throughout it, without it being directly about Jesus. I'd advise you to take a leaf out of his book.
Rntaboy 10-25-04, 09:51 PM	Actually it isn't named after the movie. If you know any Japanese it is translated as "bodyguard" or "guardian of the house". I had religious reasons for naming myself this. Are you that petty to make personal attacks against a 13 year old? Should it matter that you are 13? Just because you are younger than someone doesn't mean they should treat you any differently. I do not speak Japanese, but if you knew anything of cinema history, you would know Yojimbo was the title of what is quite possibly one of Akira Kurosawa's, one of the all-time greatest directors, most famous films. Later remade by Sergio Leone as Fist Full of Dollars, starring Clint Eastwood. Also, why should I care why you named yourself it, I just asked if your Forum name was based off of said movie, a Yes or No answer. As far as I see it, your reason for choosing such a forum name is of no more merit than any other reason.
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 10:27 PM	No more merit? What was it you said? Oh yes, " terribly weak to make a forum name based on such an amazing movie". If you don't care what I call myself, why did you ask me and then call it "weak"?
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 11:28 PM	I already knew what Yojimbo was. It is a black and white movie about a wandering sellsword in fuedel Japan.
Thorak 10-25-04, 11:33 PM	It would have been weak had you taken the movie title, and then slapped on the 99, totally destroying any sort of reverance for such a classic. So, way to go taking two separate thoughts, and mistakenly finding and non-existance linking thread. Keep up the good work, slugger. (Oh, and your cinema history lesson will come without charge. It is enough payment to make you even slightly less ignorant than you were 5 hours ago.) I said it once, I'll say it again; harassing and/or insulting a member of the community is a violation of the CoC. Yojimbo99 did nothing to elicit either comment from you. Desist.
Kiri Sittori 10-26-04, 10:09 AM	Hey, I am a christian, but I want to make a paladin. Anybody have some ideas how I could get my DM to let me make a Christian Paladin? And, yes, it is that big of a deal. I wont even fake worshipping a false(manmade) god. \ Just going from the original post here. 1. Talk to him about a background like this: The character, or (preferrably) his father or grandfather, was a young Knight of the Round Table. During the quest of the Holy Grail, this knight was accosted by (Saxons / Vikings / the evil minions of Sir Mordred / rival knights) but God had other plans for the hero. Specifically, to be lifted into The Campaign Setting, to eventually deal with The Campaign Plot. The knight, having only Jesus with him in this strange and pagan world, got by as he always had... by questing. Ultimately, his faith gained him a small following, and even a newly converted wife. You were born of this marriage, and inspired by the faith and courage of yer forebear, have learned to take up the sword and the cross in the service of God and this adopted home... 2. Figure out exactly how yer Christian tenets would operate in a typical D&D world... such as reaction to the various churches of a polytheistic culture, or arcane magic, or the various sorts of "mythical" critters that occupy the milieu. 3. Moreover, you must also consider how you might react to the other player characters --- and their heathen-ness. This might be the DM's major concern, truth to tell: the fellow players might want their characters converted any more than they themselves would want to. Just a couple things to keep in mind.
Sir Knight 10-26-04, 01:35 PM	These threads are why I'm glad I'm an Athiest and don't like to discuss religion in public. I feel it is a private matter between you and your Deity and shouldn't be organized or part of public debate. :) It is a touch subject, people on both sides try to push their views on you (which is so hypocritical I won't even go there) and have no room that they may be wrong. There very well might be Deities out there. They might be the Christian faith only. But I don't know and no single person or religious group has proof otherwise. I have Faith in my friends and family, but not in something that I don't believe in that could be made up. The truth is that nobody really knows and only believes that they are taught as children. It's called Tradition. I really don't think having a character follow a game world deity is a violation of that Commandment. That isn't what they meant. It means in your heart don't worship anything else. Playing a game has nothing to do with it. BUT, if that is your belief, you are free to believe it. Real advice: What I would do is tell the DM that you have personal, spiritual issues with your character worshipping other deities other than the real world Christian faith and can he do something to appease you. I would also consider if this is the game for you since your inhibitions regarding certain things really place you on the fence of to game or not to game. It's tough to stay true to such abstract beliefs from a thousand years ago. I feel for ya though. I know it might look like I'm attacking/flaming but I'm really not. I do totally disagree with your stance but that isn't the issue. The issue is that YOU feel uncomfortable with an aspect of the game and the only recourse is to discuss it with your DM. I know this was touched on before, but Paladins do NOT need to worship ANY deity. Their power comes from Good/Positive energy. You can call it what you will (and in your campaign it can be directly given from a deity) but the rules do not make you choose a specific deity. Good luck with that and please don't let the man get you down! :)
Adraedan 10-26-04, 03:24 PM	*A former christian/former pagan/former satanist/now nihilistic atheist bound by the CoC to keep his mouth shut* Stupid CoC
Prachett 10-26-04, 04:14 PM	I echo Sir Knight and I understand why topics based on real-world religion are banned. It's extremely personal and should not be here. <edited myself after I cooled down> With that said, however, I think a game based on a monotheistic 'god' could be very cool without any work whatsoever. Just make a 'god' named 'God' and give him/her domains. Everybody else are varying degrees of heathens. Smite away. Now make that 'God' as the overwhelming 'god' of the campaign setting. Launch your inquisitions. Have papal decrees. Go on crusades. I don't see the fuss. I run all my religions as a bureaucratic behemoths with layers upon layers of intrigue and doublecross.
malaegoth 10-26-04, 04:19 PM	I run a game where D&D is interposed about the time of the inquisition, except with a few changes. There are sort of 3 different catholic philosophies in my game. The Catholic Church itself has been infiltrated and corrupted by various followers of the dark powers. The pope was manipulated into producing a papal decree, In Imago Dei. The church has declared that all sentient beings are possessed of souls and capable of salvation, a radical change to previous doctrine. The puritan inquisition, already outside the scope of righteous action into pure xenophobia, responded by severing themselves entirely from the church, assassinating the pope and several cardinals, before they themselves were all excommunicated and driven into hiding. They now wage a shadow war against the church, and against all 'monsters' which occasionally includes even non-humans. The third philosophy, one that doesn't really have any official front, is simply one of moderation. They concur that most creatures can attain salvation, however some creatures are inherently evil and must be killed. They steadfastly oppose the corrupt bureaucracy of the church, but are against the bloody xenophobia of the inquisition as well. The pc's adhere to this philosophy. Right now, the group is being manipulated by the crone (the one who sheltered caine) into unlocking Lucifer's prison, trying to start Parousia early. The only chance the group will have of saving the world is to find L.O.M. and combat Lucifer when he arises. L.O.M., which sounds like and is pronounced like Elohim, is actually an atlantean god-machine called the Last Order Machine. The group includes a Qabbalist on the third sephiroth who studied the legend of atlantis. (the player had no idea of my plot). The basic idea is that the party will drive lucifer back to the abyss, perhaps slay the crone, and then secret away the key until the real second coming.
Thorak 10-26-04, 08:18 PM	*A former christian/former pagan/former satanist/now nihilistic atheist bound by the CoC to keep his mouth shut* Stupid CoC As a *former Christian/former atheist/agnostic/historian/revisionist* I fail to see why you can't comment constructively, as I tried to. Just remember; you'll never convince yojimbo99 (or anyone else) of your opinions (which are likely just as baseless as any religion's), so why even try? I know I would (and do) have problems playing a PC who has a romantic interest, because I'm married and I don't want there to even be the suggestion that I'm getting anything like that out of the game (especially since we're all guys, and I don't swing that way). I imagine yojimbo99's issues with worshipping what he sees as a false god is somewhat similar. I don't have the same issues, but plenty of others here wouldn't have a problem with their character bedding every barmaid they can, when I would. Everyone's different, the only real problem is when you start assuming what you believe should affect how others act/think/believe. As distinct, of course, from provable facts. I may not like mushrooms, my wife may love them, but we at least can both agree they're fungus and edible.
Realms Walker 10-26-04, 10:52 PM	...... .. ... .. .... .... ... . . .. . ..... . . ... ... .. ... ........
Rntaboy 10-26-04, 11:36 PM	Well, I guess some people have problems disassociating their character from themselves. I mean, really, very rarely have I ever had a character who even mentioned his diety, let alone truly worship him. You could simply play the character as one whos religion is very personal, and doesn't feel the need to talk about it. This, however, is not how most people play paladins, but that is because these people are uncreative and need to fall back on arch-typical character types.
white_trash_samurai 10-27-04, 02:00 AM	Paladin. . . . . My Favorite class!!!! I had A DM Along time ago (13 Years ago :mymy: ) was running a D&D game on a School trip. There was a Female that happened to question what we was doing, She is a VERY devout Christian and she believed that we was playing an "Evil" game. Well the DM invited her to play, and for her to play a Paladin (DM Suggestion) with her strong convictions that she felt in real life. So she played and she became hooked and I mean HOOKED and she was a Great player and all she played was Rangers, Fighters, and Palidans with Close to the same beliefs. Now the DM ran a Homebrew game world, where the Gods where: R.a.G.O.G (Random God of Good) and all of the Evil people in the Game believed in the Evil aligned powers. This really worked because you don't get into specifics of the Deities, there was R.a.G.O.G. and the Evil aligned powers. He did this so EVERYONE could enjoy the game no matter what you believed in! :D He was the Best the DM I EVER GAMED WITH!!!!!!
Grox 10-27-04, 12:30 PM	These threads are why I'm glad I'm an Athiest and don't like to discuss religion in public. You most certainly do . . . you went on about it for three paragraphs after this opening sentence. If you don't want to discuss something, don't. Going on and on about why you DON'T "want to discuss it" is just a poor ruse. Real advice: What I would do is tell the DM The paragraph beginning with the above text would have been fine all by itself. It accomplishes everything you want to accomplish. I know it might look like I'm attacking/flaming but I'm really not. I do totally disagree with your stance but that isn't the issue. It's true that you AREN'T attacking/flaming, I'll give you that. But in the next sentence you go right back to something else that, you admit in the same breath, "isn't the issue". In fact, earlier in your post, you identify that subject matter as part of another, irrelevant issue that it's best to "not discuss". This reminds me of a thread on a different message board --- also devoted to gaming --- where RL politics was off-limits, but a separate board existed to just generally chat about humor and other RL things. Europe was undergoing a heat wave at the time, and one poster was all on fire to get her point across that this was caused through US corporations via "global warming". She aggressively sought opinions from everyone with a European address given in their profile about "the heat wave", while keeping up a constant drumbeat that "We mustn't discuss the cause of this heatwave, because doing so inherently involves politics!" Of course, in that particular case, the position of the American right is that such heatwaves have a purely natural cause, rather than a political one. (I happen to have no opinion whatsoever on that issue, btw). So of course, she WAS using the board to take a strong leftist, environmental position, even while seeming to cover herself with constant admonitions to all to "not discuss politics". I'm not saying that you are doing this deliberately or maliciously. Just remember that you CAN overdo it when emphasizing your opinion on the subject of "what not to talk about", and actually end up calling even more attention to what you are supposedly trying to leave out. If you do it enough, it's easy for others to assume the worst about your intentions. Look, Yojimbo has already DESCRIBED exactly how he wants to play the game. He wants advice on how to proceed with that. I understand how in certain similar message-board situations, you might consider it constructive to come up with alternatives, but Yojimbo has been pretty straightforward --- TMK he has said over and over again that he's not really interested in alternatives. Moreover, he has done so politely and succinctly.
Grox 10-27-04, 12:51 PM	With that said, however, I think a game based on a monotheistic 'god' could be very cool without any work whatsoever. Just make a 'god' named 'God' and give him/her domains. But why would a monotheistic god have domains? Shouldn't a god who claims to be the "god of everything" have ALL domains, or maybe rule over a world where the clerics simply don't have access to domain spells or powers? A monotheistic god should certainly be open to all alignments (even if the god itself has a very specific alignment). After all, a jealous monotheistic god should represent everything remotely worthy of respect to all its worshippers, right? You want to have LG paladins, LE inquisitors, and CN witch-hunter madmen all worshipping the same monotheistic god? Why not? You can have schisms, crusades, etc., to your heart's content. You could even have different, COMPETING monotheistic gods. Just say that the monotheistic gods are sort of "above the fray" of most petty human disputes about alignment, and open to all (theoretically at least).
Adraedan 10-27-04, 12:52 PM	As a *former Christian/former atheist/agnostic/historian/revisionist* I fail to see why you can't comment constructively, as I tried to. Just remember; you'll never convince yojimbo99 (or anyone else) of your opinions (which are likely just as baseless as any religion's), so why even try? Well, first off, technically as a nihilist I have NO beliefs...so they are niether baseless nor do they have a base. And as for constructive comments: It's a game, completely seperate from the real world, don't let something as inherently retarded as religion (any religion) get in the way of having fun.
Prachett 10-27-04, 02:07 PM	Heck I'm with Grox on this issue. I guess you have to decide which sect of christianity you are going to emulate. If its the all knowing, happy go lucky kind, then I don't think you have a game. If you simulate the 1200-1600 A.D. type christianity, then I think that would be interesting as heck. Then you could burn people at the stake, torture them over the rack, and go on crusades to snuff out heretics all based on human interpretation of divine right. Kinda like King Henry V screaming "By the right of God, I shall have the throne of France!" Your divine spellcasters both good and evil could just choose two domains based off the PHB method of choosing a non-denominational god. No need to worship a particular 'god'.
The_Fan 10-27-04, 02:28 PM	Or, you could take the approach of the Lupins in the latest Dragon magazine. Instead of "worshiping" a "god" you could "pay homage" to a "patron saint." Really, do you roleplay your cleric evangelizing to everyone, thanking his god at every turn, and say the prayers he does each day for spells? Probably not. So I see it as perfectly reasonable to follow a Catholic approach to the pantheon of one God and many saints, with most religious types following a patron saint's ideals but coming together on the idea of a supreme Diety.
meabolex 10-27-04, 03:13 PM	I use animism in my campaigns. Animism, if you didn't know, is the religion of worshiping the spirits of things -- and almost everything has a spirit of some sort. Most are relatively weak or barely existent. . . but some are as powerful as any deity in any other game. In order to simulate the equivalent Christian ideal in my campaign, I wouldn't have any problem with a spirit being defined that is the rough equivalent of Jesus. Of course, the whole "no other god's before me" thing would have to go since there are no gods and all the spirits are aware of each other. As a matter of fact, paladins in my campaign world worship one particular champion spirit. I let the players define the spirit almost entirely -- as long as it doesn't override the core ideas of spirits in the game.
Kainy 10-27-04, 06:36 PM	On one hand, all Gods could be consider manmade. On the other, to a believer, that doesn't really matter. On another hand, if you can't conceive of a mindset that believes in any God but your own (i.e. ROLEPLAYING a character whose beliefs are different from your own) you, sir, are likely an assbag. Assbaggery includes hating others for their beliefs, attempting to restrict others' actions based on YOUR beliefs, etc. Assbags are 90% of the reason that D&D has the stigma it does. Emphasis added because I have no undeniable reason to believe it in this case.
Thorak 10-27-04, 11:17 PM	Well, first off, technically as a nihilist I have NO beliefs...so they are niether baseless nor do they have a base. And as for constructive comments: It's a game, completely seperate from the real world, don't let something as inherently retarded as religion (any religion) get in the way of having fun. If you state you're a nihilist, you most certainly have beliefs. They may be nihilistic, but they're beliefs. You could only claim to have no beliefs if you were entirely of no opinion on anything. Yet, because you apparently consider religion (any religion) "inherently retarded", I'd say that's an incredibly strong belief. For someone who claims to have none. Be atheistic if you like. But keep your opinions and beliefs to yourself, unless asked. It's just as ugly for an atheist to be fundamentalist and preachy about their beliefs as it is for any actual religion. Grox; I agree, a monotheistic world shouldn't be limiting clerics to certain domains. Use the "pick 2" rule provided for clerics of no specific god; that covers a monotheistic omipotent God just as well.
Grox 10-28-04, 12:44 AM	Hey, I am a christian, but I want to make a paladin. Anybody have some ideas how I could get my DM to let me make a Christian Paladin? And, yes, it is that big of a deal. I wont even fake worshipping a false(manmade) god. if you can't conceive of a mindset that believes in any God but your own (i.e. ROLEPLAYING a character whose beliefs are different from your own) you, sir, are likely an assbag. Yojimbo said nothing about "conceiving of a mindset" of any kind, nor did he denigrate those who disagree with him. He wants to play a certain way, which is every bit as valid as however any of the rest of us want to play. He asked for some advice on how to do that, period. It's irritating that every few posts somebody else has to categorize how they disapprove of his personal beliefs, or of certain PEOPLE who hold beliefs like his, or whatever. So you disapprove of CERTAIN Christians whom you attach a certain profane term to, based on your interpretation of their motivations . . . ? Great, post it somewhere else where you can talk about RL religion. The thread is not about Yojimbo's RL beliefs or anyone else's.
Rntaboy 10-28-04, 01:16 AM	This sort of thread about molding a game to fit what one sees fit for one who follows his religion, is inherantly going to focus on beliefs. It is also going illicit the beliefs of other who think this concept to be silly. Your damned if you do, and you damed if you don't. And if you can't handle playing DnD without a major world change to fit around your beliefs, maybe you should play Pokemon instead.
Thorak 10-28-04, 08:10 AM	I'd just like to say I find this thread amusing, in that the fundamentalist "doing that is morally wrong, and you're a bad person if you think that" people are the atheists. Criticizing an admitted Christian for wanting to play according to his beliefs, and who in no way implied that others were wrong for not playing that way. It's just such a refreshing mirror-image of the standard portrayals, that it serves as a great reminder that unreasoning fundamentalism isn't a Christian trait, but is one that anyone with any set of beliefs can have. Whether it's Christian, Muslim, or Athiest Scientist, fundamentalist hatred is there. Especially when their chief argument against yojimbo99's idea is "being/playing monotheistic is narrow-minded and too limiting." Which is, itself, a narrow-minded and limiting opinion. Ahh hypocrisy, the idiot stepchild of fundamentalism. Regardless of the specific beliefs of the fundamentalist.
Rntaboy 10-28-04, 09:07 AM	I'd just like to say I find this thread amusing, in that the fundamentalist "doing that is morally wrong, and you're a bad person if you think that" people are the atheists. Criticizing an admitted Christian for wanting to play according to his beliefs, and who in no way implied that others were wrong for not playing that way. It's just such a refreshing mirror-image of the standard portrayals, that it serves as a great reminder that unreasoning fundamentalism isn't a Christian trait, but is one that anyone with any set of beliefs can have. Whether it's Christian, Muslim, or Athiest Scientist, fundamentalist hatred is there. Especially when their chief argument against yojimbo99's idea is "being/playing monotheistic is narrow-minded and too limiting." Which is, itself, a narrow-minded and limiting opinion. Ahh hypocrisy, the idiot stepchild of fundamentalism. Regardless of the specific beliefs of the fundamentalist. By your logic, your obvious disdain for hypocritical fundamentalists has made you a ...wait for it... hypocritcal fundamentalist. Good job.
Thorak 10-28-04, 11:29 AM	By your logic, your obvious disdain for hypocritical fundamentalists has made you a ...wait for it... hypocritcal fundamentalist. Good job. My disdain wasn't for fundamentalists. It was for hypocrisy. I only used the term 'fundamentalist' in my last point to clarify that both sides were being fundamentalist, it's not a term that's necessarily religious, and applies to atheists just as much (if not more) than Christians. But am I hypocritical for pointing out someone else's hypocrisy? I don't think so. I'd only be hypocritical if I claimed that my views were better than someone else's because of that hypocrisy. Which I'm not. As compared to statements like; "...don't let something as inherently retarded as religion (any religion) get in the way of having fun." Which is like saying "I don't believe what you believe, so your beliefs are inherently retarded, even though I can't disprove them." Which goes both ways, of course, and Christian fundies are just as hypocritical when they say that kind of stuff about atheists. My point isn't that Christians are good and Atheists are bad. My point is that fundamentalism leads to narrow-minded and hypocritical comments, regardless of what you're being fundamentalist about. And I don't see that my pointing out hypocrisy makes me, therefore, hypocritical. If I were claiming that my beliefs were 'better' or 'right', and all you guys were 'inherently retarded' for disagreeing, then yes, I'd be a hypocritical fundamentalist. Instead, I'm just noting it, and pointing it out, with amusement. I'm not judging anyone, and that's the difference.
eRaz0r 10-28-04, 12:13 PM	Just a minor point, but fundamentalism is a hard to apply to non-religious viewpoint. It literally means "going back to the fundamentals" - which, in the context of religion connotes interpretation of the sacred texts as literally correct, and rigid adherence to the principles espoused by that literal interpretation. Since atheism generally doesn't have any sacred texts - or a definitive non-sacred text, if you will - there are no fundamentals to rigidly enforce. There are no prescribed or proscribed actions for an atheist, nor any single point of reference for their belief that must be enforced or interpretted. So really, a Fundamentalist Atheist is a little hard to picture. About the only thing Atheists have in common is their lack of belief in a deity. Strong Atheists positively believe there is NO deity, but Weak Atheists just see no reason to believe in one - which is a less strident position. Now many "Strong" Atheists can feel at least as strongly about the lack of a God as Fundamentalists do about the inerrancy of the sacred texts which claim ther is one, but equating the two under the same banner muddies the issue. To summarize a really complex issue. Fundamentalist Believer : There's a Sacred Text and it tells me that there is a God and He has these attributes (list) and we must do these actions and not these other actions in order to be worthy of.... Weak Atheist/Agnostic : Hey, Wait up there.. Why do you believe that some ancient bit of propaganda penned by a bunch of nomads who thought the world was flat is correct about the existance of a Deity ? Lets talk about whether there really is one before I have to worry about doing what He supposedly says... Strong Atheist : Obviously there are NO Gods. I've never seen one, and anyone else who claims to have is either lying to dupe the masses or a dupe themselves (of someone else, or their own wishful thinking). I've had Acid trips and delusions, but I can recognize them for what they are. There are no gods. Weak Atheist : Well, that's nice, but I've never personally seen an elephant either, but I'm pretty sure they exist. I've got no reason to think that everyone else who claims to have seen one is lying or duped... your argument isn't really very strong. Besides, it's almost impossible to positively prove something doesn't exist when that something has no measurable attributes and is purportedly able to change everything in the world at will. Fundamentalist Believer : Yeah - so there. Weak Atheist : Of course, the lack of proof that something doesn't exist is in no way to be taken as a positive proof that it does. Only a wooly headed idiot would believe that. I can't prove the pink elephants are dancing on my bed, but that hardly proves that they *are*. Fundamentalist Believer , Strong Atheist : Ummm ? (edit: ok, that came out more as a joke than a serious summation - please don't take my coloring of both sides of the issue personally. People are still entitled to *believe* there is, or is not a God (or many, if that's their schtick). But no one has successfully, logically, proven anything - one way or the other. )
Thorak 10-28-04, 12:39 PM	People are still entitled to *believe* there is, or is not a God (or many, if that's their schtick). But no one has successfully, logically, proven anything - one way or the other. ) This last is why I chose to apply the term "fundamentalist" to both sides. I know it's meaning, which you clarified. And while atheism doesn't have the nice, convenient, one-stop-shopping for original texts most religions have in their sacred books, there's plenty of academic works that are considered to be seminal texts that are accepted, at least by the non-scientists who I would liken, as far as education regarding their faith, to non-priests in a religion, as a form of 'gospel'. Take Darwin's Origin of Species; many people accept it, or at least the theories of evolution that sprang from it, as proven fact. It's not. Darwin's theories were horribly flawed, though he did raise some good points. And even the modern theory doesn't explain a great deal about the process; scientists still have absolutely no idea how evolution happens, or how quickly. We can find plenty of fossils that we can see are clearly of one species or the other, lasting unchanged for in some cases millions of years. Then, in a relatively short timespan, they change significantly and then go on not changing for another million years. To take human anthropological history; the theory states we evolved from early hominids like Hom0 Erectus. Yet there's never been a skeleton found that was somewhere between Hom0 Erectus and Hom0 Sapiens, evolutionarily. The current paradigm, as far as I know, is that evolution occurs very quickly in brief, long-separated bursts. But they have no idea how, or why, or what could cause the changes if it's not gradual selection like Darwin proposed, which it can't be in the time frames specified, especially since species wouldn't remain static so long if that process existed. They just don't know. Oh yeah, back to my point. The "Athest Fundies", if I can use the term, will still, despite the above, say that Evolution is a scientific fact, and that species change due to natural selection. Even when that's been disproved scientifically, and scientists are confused about how it actually happened. Because they're being fundamentalist; they don't understand the new findings, they don't like the uncertainty, so they return to the seminal texts and beliefs and rely on those, despite recent changes. Fundamentalist. Edit: Don't take any of this as an attack of Evolution. My personal beliefs, which I shall only briefly mention, include a certainty that both science and religion are sides of the same coin. Sure, they're different. One's a head, one's a tail. But they're both parts of the same coin.
eRaz0r 10-28-04, 02:06 PM	Ahh, but the concept of evolution is only indirectly related to that of the belief in a deity, insofar as the belief in a particular God (Judeo-Christian) and the fundamentalist adherence to the Creation as literally imparted to us through the bible contradicts a long earth history. The concept of evolution itself has no bearing on whether there are any gods - merely that, if it's correct, then those who believe in a Judeo Biblical Creation are wrong. One can be a) someone who believes in a God other than the Judeo Christian God, for whom evolution poses no threat to that belief, b) a Christian who doesn't believe in the literal inerrancy of Genesis, but take it as a parable, and therefore accepts Evolution or c) an Atheist who doesn't accept Evolution as proposed by Darwin, or even in its current form as accepted by the majority of the present day scientific community.. If you were looking for a better example of something approaching a fundamentalist text for Atheists, you should have pointed at some philosophical musings, such as those of Nietzsche. Even then, there's no authoritative "fundamental" Atheist text the equivalent of a "Bible" or "Koran" or whatever. Finally, I'd like to point out that you're holding a common misconception about Evolution. In the same way that no Scientific Theory is proven, yes, Evolution is not proven. However, the general principles of evolutionary theory have withstood thousands of experiments over the last 150 years. It's as close to 'proven' as Newtons Laws of Thermodynamics. Try http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html. The process of Evolution is pretty well understood. Even Punctuated Equilibrium has been reconciled with the large body of evidence which supports the process of evolution.
Grox 10-28-04, 02:08 PM	Just a minor point, but fundamentalism is a hard to apply to non-religious viewpoint. It literally means "going back to the fundamentals" - which, in the context of religion connotes interpretation of the sacred texts as literally correct, and rigid adherence to the principles espoused by that literal interpretation. Not at all. You can "go back to the fundamentals" of any belief system. It doesn't require any "sacred text" per se, you could be a fundamenalist about the Constitution, or the writings of Karl Marx. Atheism has only been organized, as such, for a little over a century, and during that time a lot of core beliefs have been admitted as orthodoxy, cast aside as heresy, and periodically re-examined. This is not an indictment of atheism per se, but merely the result of any endeavor where a group of human beings attempt to nurture any sort of cultural movement over time. These "core beliefs" of militant atheism aren't simply a belief that there is no supreme being who created the universe. They also include specific indictments and diagnoses of all non-atheists, as either dupes or perpetrators; that all religious faith is ultimately rooted in the believers' inability to face their own mortality, and that religion is entirely an exercise in salesmanship, trading an illusionary escape from death for wealth and power. That ridicule of religion is not only a right, but a duty, to try and "de-program" or "save" the masses from the delusions that enslave them. It's related to the Marxist adages that "religion is the opium of the masses" and "the workers have nothing to lose but their chains". It is also related to the rise in self-esteem that many atheists get from seeing themselves as part of a tiny minority of humans who have the "courage to face the truth". . . the role of the underdog against tyranny is a tempting one. It is this liberal and pseudo-intellectual bias that has managed to portray some kind of right-wing monopoly on religious fundamentalism in America, despite numerous clergymen preaching the Democratic party line from the pulpit, or environmentalists protesting the logging industry by holding hands around a tree and "praying to Mother Earth". The closed-mindedness commonly associated with the word "fundamentalist" can be applied to any set of beliefs --- religious, political, intellectual, or whatever. All that's required is for the believer to dismiss all who disagree as inferior (or, perhaps, "retarded") --- just as the atheists on this thread have been doing to Yojimbo. Anyway, speaking of Yojimbo, this thread is really starting to wander away from his initial request for help. How about continuing our discussion on PM so we can spend a little time answering the kid's questions?
Prachett 10-28-04, 02:19 PM	Ah... interesting posts. Though I would only add to Thorak, although the original poster did not push his belief system on others as you said, he did categorize himself as a species a gamer, that of Christian gamer. This categorization implies exclusivity, which by definition excludes others. Perhaps some people may be offended by this? The only other categorization I have ever seen on these boards (and I could be wrong) is gamer chick. Besides those, questions are usually generic, such as "Hey I want to simulate a monotheistic god, how do I do it?" That doesn't usually draw to much fire. Anyway, I think the best fix, as a couple have people said, is to have one 'god', but just have your clerics pick 2 domains they want.
eRaz0r 10-28-04, 02:46 PM	Not at all. You can "go back to the fundamentals" of any belief system. It doesn't require any "sacred text" per se, you could be a fundamenalist about the Constitution, or the writings of Karl Marx. from dictionary.reference.com fun·da·men·tal·ism P Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm) n. 1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. a) often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture. b) Adherence to the theology of this movement. To be "fundamentalist" about something implies an authoratitive source. While many Strong Atheists act as you describe, that implies a fervour, an intensity in their beliefs which they share with fundamentalists. But it's not the same thing as fundamentalism itself. Fundamentalism isn't the same as zealotry. A Zealot isn't necessarily a fundamentalist, even if almost all fundamentalists are zealots. The terms just aren't equivalent. But you're right. This discussion isn't going to help Yojimbo with his problem. I've already contributed my suggestion earlier. Hopefully it wasn't lost in the noise :)
Thorak 10-28-04, 06:39 PM	Finally, I'd like to point out that you're holding a common misconception about Evolution. In the same way that no Scientific Theory is proven, yes, Evolution is not proven. However, the general principles of evolutionary theory have withstood thousands of experiments over the last 150 years. It's as close to 'proven' as Newtons Laws of Thermodynamics. Try http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html. The process of Evolution is pretty well understood. Even Punctuated Equilibrium has been reconciled with the large body of evidence which supports the process of evolution. A quick review of the PE link reminds me that what I said is perfectly accurate; it's a theory, it has flaws (incomplete paleontological record being a glaring one), and it doesn't explain everything expect circuitously. Basically, it comes down to (since the article is ridiculously heavy with jargon) 'parent' species having 'daughter' species. But doesn't propose any reasonable way in which this can happen reliably at random. It's pretty clear why, to paraphrase a well-known study, dark moths will suddenly become more common than light moths when industrialism covers everything with soot (because birds, instead of eating the dark moths easily visible on light surfaces, are eating the light moths on dark ones), and that this process can cause swift cosmetic changes within a species. It would be easy to, for instance, breed humans to remove the chance of redheaded people, in a few generations, if we were strict about it. The problem with PE is it does not address any higher level of change, to entirely new species. The article in question even says so itself. PE explains how the generic Wolf became Timber, Grey, and Red wolves. It doesn't explain how a rodent-like creature became an elephant. Evolution is flawed. It's probably not entirely wrong, but science doesn't have a sweet clue how it really works.
yojimbo99 10-28-04, 07:04 PM	If you don't belive in my religion, then I am not going to force it upon you, and I certainly won't call you "inherently retarded". I thank you for your suggestions, and would love to discuss religion if there is a forum fot it. If there is I would be grateful if you could show me where it is allowed. I have not tried to insult anyone, or impose my views upon anyone, and would be overjoyed if we weren't reduced to calling each other names, or implying upon others intelligence. You don't have to be a christian to believe in common courtesy, and as I have said I'm not trying to offend anyone, whether you follow my beliefs or not.
eRaz0r 10-28-04, 08:00 PM	Evolution is flawed. It's probably not entirely wrong, but science doesn't have a sweet clue how it really works. Whoa there! You should read more of talkorigins before making that blanket statement. There are numerous articles there that refute exactly that belief of yours. Although maybe you won't find them convincing. But hey - this is a forum about DnD, so I'll let it go. Back to Yojimbo - Unfortunately, there aren't really any places on this forum where discussing Religion directly is tolerated. In a way that's a shame, but since there are many forums elsewhere on the internet where such is encouraged, I think we can make the best of it here, and keep ourselves to DnD where at all possible. (note to self : Way to go, not taking your own advice, eRazor!) Have you decided on what to do in your game, yet ? I'd be interested in seeing how it goes.
yojimbo99 10-28-04, 08:33 PM	It isn't a priority to my DM, as of right now. I am still a paladin, who can't yet use divine spells, so its not that big of an issue. He isn't really concerned, just background purposes. I still have the Trinity listed as my deity, so, instead of twisting my faith to make it fit in a fantasy world, it is just established that I am a paladin of Law. Thanks for asking.
Thorak 10-28-04, 08:37 PM	Whoa there! You should read more of talkorigins before making that blanket statement. There are numerous articles there that refute exactly that belief of yours. Although maybe you won't find them convincing. And I've read other scientific articles which refute those articles. So I submit that the point is moot; it's hardly decided scientifically. But hey - this is a forum about DnD, so I'll let it go. Agreed. I'm probably exaggerating to make a point (I often do), and this isn't the place for it; this is exactly why I refrained from commenting on this thread for so long, I get sidetracked into these debates too easily and derail the thread. Enough crap. Back to yojimbo99!