Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ut-Napishtim 02-06-06, 02:02 PM	Do you tell your DM when you think he's railroading you? I'm just curious. In the past I've been in many a game where some railroading occured, and generally folks (myself included) went along with it. A lot of times with PnP games it seems DM's are pretty hard to come by, so usually folks will cut them some slack on such things. In a PbP game I'm in I'm begining to suspect our characters have just been loaded onto a train, and any struggling will only make it more painful to us. I thought about mentioning it to the DM (and thankfully stifled the urge to post "All Aboard - woo woo!") but I think that would probably do more harm than good in the end.
Adam Smite 02-06-06, 02:47 PM	If I tell my DM that he was railroading us, I do so well after the fact as part of a "How can we be better DM/GM's" talk. That way if they feel like venting they can point out my failings as a DM, rather than by dropping a rock on my character.
DarknessEternal 02-06-06, 04:34 PM	It depends how bad it is. But realistically, players want to be railroaded. They just want it to seem like they aren't being railroaded. Players really only want the illusion of free will. Free will is boring.
Iry 02-06-06, 04:40 PM	Keep an eye out for it happening too often, but don't worry about it happening sparsely. If it does happen too often for your likes, then take it up in a conversation with the DM. Remember, not every DM is a writhing superpower of creativity. For several DM's it is a case of "This is the adventure I planned. If you don't want to bite, we don't have to play tonight." However, most of /those/ types will try and force things on even if you don't bite, or have the wisdom to make sure the adventures they plot have modal geography that can coincidentally occur wherever you roam. Cut him some slack the first few times. Especially if that's the momentum you need to careen down the tracks of your own volition. After that, raise caine.
Piff 02-06-06, 08:42 PM	It depends how bad it is. But realistically, players want to be railroaded. They just want it to seem like they aren't being railroaded. Players really only want the illusion of free will. Free will is boring. I absolutly agree with this. As a player my DM railroads me most of the times, but in the end its my choice. For example: DM: There is rumors of a strange monster in the woods changing the lumber jacks into plants. Me: Naw sounds to hard, I dont think im up to do it, some other hero can do that job. DM: Fine but you'll miss out on a bunch of loot... And with that of course your going after the strange thing, thats railroading at its peak.
Mock26 02-06-06, 10:42 PM	You also have to take into consideration that some DM's may not be all that good at creating alternative adventures, they may have a campaign with a specific series of adventures in mind. So, they prepare this and that is all that they are prepared to run. This of itself does not make them a bad DM. DM's come with varying skill levels. Some DM's could let the group go on an adventure that has nothing to do with what they had planned and they'll have an easy time adapting this new adventure so that by the end the group will be all gung ho to go on the adventure the DM did have planned. Some DM's wouldn't have clue one on how to pull this off. Again, this doesn't mean that they are a bad DM. Some DM's may only be able to railroad. If your DM does railroad a lot, but you have a lot of fun on those adventures, then you should go with the flow. In the end, to me at least, if I have fun on an adventure I don't really care how my character got on that adventure. Lastly, if he is the only DM available then short of taking over his job there really isn't anything you can do about it. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Rathje 02-07-06, 12:35 AM	The only time I get to play is when my brother DM's. At that point, I'm also half-teaching him at the same time. I give him warnings about when things could get iffy, but that's in all aspects, not just rail-roading. There are times when I leave it and discuss it during the course of the week, if I feel it'll disrupt game-play to point it out.
Nom 02-07-06, 07:21 AM	There's an issue of game style and an issue of responsibility. For example, in games I run there's often an event driven plot, and the PCs are expected to interact with and investigate the adventure hooks (ie "play into the story"). That said, how they do it is up to them, they're allowed to fail or do something radical, and if PCs have particular interests and their players express them clearly (preferably by talking to me out-of-game) then I'll do my best to accomodate them, even interspersing side adventures as appropriate. I'm up front about this, so the players know what to expect. "Railroading" usually occurs when there is a mismatch between the players and the DM about the game style. As such, it really is appropriate to talk to the DM about it ASAP. However, I'd recommend not calling it "railroading", at least not on first sitting. More importantly, have a very clear (and concise) idea of what your character goals actually are, and why you don't feel that you're having a chance to explore / develop them. A DM is much more likely to listen if you say "I'd like for my PC to do this, but I feel that your current material only allows for this" than if you simply accuse him of "railroading". It's entirely possible that if you say "not railroaded" he'll just hear "wander aimlessly and then complain because we're bored" or even "I don't care about your preparation". I have seen groups who "I don't wanna do that", "or that", "or that", ... "why don't we ever see any action?". So yes, talk to him, but talk to him about what you specifically want to get out of the game. Don't just throw around perjorative terms like "railroading" and expect an accommodating response.
JabberWocky 02-07-06, 07:43 AM	A clever DM may never even allow PCs to know they're being railroaded. For example, if my players wind up in a bar somewhere with four rather important-looking NPCs, and they decide to speak with Elf McPointy at the private booth, he gives them a quest to go investigate a local cemetery where strange figures have been spotted at night. His relatives are buried there and he wants to make sure their graves haven't been despoiled by bandits, but he doesn't want to get caught by them, so he pays the adventurers a high sum to do it. If the players had talked to Guard LeWatcher at the bar, he would have given them a quest to investigate reports of graverobbing at the local cemetery after a few fresh graves were found uncovered. He's too shorthanded to send some of the local watch right now, and too busy to go on his own, but it pays well. Neat, huh? The only way I would bring up railroading with your DM is if he were acting your character for you. If your DM says things such as, "You go to the cemetery," without there being a very reasonable explanation as to why you just went to a cemetery, or makes your character do things he normally wouldn't do ("You put on the black suit of full plate with skulls engraved on the front." But I'm a wizard...), then you should speak with him or her about it. Your concern, though valid, may only be the DM attempting to move the plot along. Not all DMs have a completely mutable campaign idea; some may be running a module. Just because your characters seem to be going in some uniform direction the DM seems to have predetermined, don't call him on it, just go along and see if it's fun. If it isn't, then you may want to think about speaking with him about overall game enjoyment, not just railroading.
Tormsskull 02-07-06, 11:13 AM	You should definitely bring it up to the DM, but not during a session. DMs can be very defensive about their work. My definition of railroading is: Players do not have any choices, or their choices do not really mater. f/x: Using this example provided by JabberWocky: A clever DM may never even allow PCs to know they're being railroaded. For example, if my players wind up in a bar somewhere with four rather important-looking NPCs, and they decide to speak with Elf McPointy at the private booth, he gives them a quest to go investigate a local cemetery where strange figures have been spotted at night. His relatives are buried there and he wants to make sure their graves haven't been despoiled by bandits, but he doesn't want to get caught by them, so he pays the adventurers a high sum to do it. If the players had talked to Guard LeWatcher at the bar, he would have given them a quest to investigate reports of graverobbing at the local cemetery after a few fresh graves were found uncovered. He's too shorthanded to send some of the local watch right now, and too busy to go on his own, but it pays well. This doesn't qualify as railroading until the PCs say "Forget the graveyard, let's go to the forest." and then the DM says "On your way to the forest, you past by the graveyard, and..." Or if the DM says "Sorry, you HAVE to go to the graveyard." Now, as a smart DM, when you make adventure hooks you give your players an advantage to follow those hooks. Like treasure, defeating evil, yadda yadda, whatever. Likewise, as previous posters have mentioned, you use PCs motivation to further entice them to the hook. If a particular PC wants to open his own bar (for example) then make part of the adventure hook contain a secret recipe for firebreather alcohol that is bound to make the PC a good amount of coin. There's a million ways you can handle this. also, if the PCs specifically don't take your hooks time after time, then make their be some RP consequences. If the PCs ignore the church's request for aid against the undead, then perhaps the church charges the PCs more to perform clerical deeds, or perhaps the church is destroyed, or whatever :)
Twisted Puppy 02-07-06, 12:34 PM	Do you tell your DM when you think he's railroading you? It's like any other train ride. The decision to complain or not is based on the scenery and the company.
Bruunwald 02-07-06, 03:20 PM	I'm usually the DM, but I've only ever been accused of railroading by the same guy who did it to me when he DMed. Now, his accusations were entirely baseless. I wasn't railroading. There was a misunderstanding over a time travel thing and this person was being unreasonable. Basically, long story short, the party went to the top of a tower where they could look back and see themselves approaching, and look forward and see themselves leaving. This problem player then point-blank stated that their mission must be a fate accompli, since they could see themselves leaving, and that I must be simply guiding them through it with no intent on really putting them in danger. This badgering continued, despite trying to explain that future visions were only possibilities, not guarantees, and despite the fact that one of the PCs died and was carried out (contrary to the vision), until the game actually ended from this miscreant's bad behavior a few sessions later. On the other hand, he really did railroad us on one of only two attempts on his part at DMing. Actually, the problem was, he didn't know when to let go of your character and actually let you play it. Example: "You're looking through the pile of refuse when suddenly there is a gigantic crashing noise behind you. You whip around to look. It's a huge creature with three legs and three waving stalks, one with eyes on it. You're terrified. You look for a way out and spot a door. Just as you're running for the door..." That's a quote. I remember it almost exactly because that's the moment I finally said, "Actually, I think we need to decide if we want to run for the door. We have to determine our actions at some point." At this point, this guy got this dead look in his eyes and he just said, "So that's how it's going to be, eh?" And then he just quit. Now, that's not true railroading in the plot sense, because the "adventure" was merely anecdotal. But the spirit, or lack thereof, is the same.
Deacon Liadon 02-07-06, 06:04 PM	I actually had a player beg me to railroad themthe last week because two members of the party had accidently vanished through a portal to the elemental plane of air (key was a soap bubble, portal was in the bathroom, you get the picture), and no-one else in the party noticed them missing for ten days. I refused to outright tell them preferring to give them subtle hints and at this point the player shouted "For the love of Pelor, railroad us!"
Ut-Napishtim 02-08-06, 10:21 AM	Yeah, I suppose I should be a little more specific since it's kind of a matter of perception. In this particular game myself (Cleric of Ehlonna) and another player (Paladin of Pelor) were scouting out this keep. The other two players had decided to take a third slain party member back to town for raising. My inclination was to go with them and let the stubborn Paladin head off on his own like a fool, but the results of an Augury indicated I should go with him. After we split up the DM asked how we'd like him to get us back together. I told him straight up there wasn't any need. In game all the characters were planning on meeting back up after the others got things taken care of. So we go ahead to scout out the bad guys' hideout, and find a secret door into a cellar. The DM asks us which way we want to go, but we decide that we're instead going to wait there and ambush folks that come down one by one. That lasts for all of one guy, as the second one is suddenly uncannily wise to our trap (despite the fact that we had the first one unconscious and stuffed in a barrel). He takes of running and five rounds later the DM rules that we didn't make a decision to run fast enough and are now faced with six armed guards and two spellcasters. Despite the fact that I hadn't cast Detect Magic he lets us know up front they're all evil and well equipped with multiple magic weapons, items, and armor. That's when I started to smell coal smoke. Of course being a clever player I had my Cleric cast Obscurring Mist and head back for the secret door with a Move Silently. The Guards failed their opposed rolls, and I'm thinking: Sweet, now we can run back and hook up with the others. Suddenly one of the enemy spellcasters conveniently casts Gust of Wind instantly dissapating the mist, followed by Mass Hold Person (which the Paladin fails the save against - our characters are 2-4th level). Now I'm thinking: All Aboard! Woo woo! I dispute the Gust of Wind (shortly after I posted this thread) with the DM as the description for Obscurring Mist says it takes 4 rounds for Gust of Wind to disperse the fog. He points out that Gust of Wind is 50 mph, which by the table in Obscurrng Mist should disperse it in a single round. I hadn't really noticed that inconsistency before, but conceeded to and respected his ruling as the DM. Although I still felt it was somewhat cheap that the enemy had coincidentally prepared the one spell that could thwart our escape. Afterwards he came out and explained that our capture was they way he was going to get the party back together. So I was thinking: Oh okay, I guess that makes sense. Figuring that the others were going to be captured as well. Unfortunately now he's asking us if we want to try and escape and head back to hook up with the others. So what's the difference between us escaping now or back at the original encounter? Right now I'm waiting to find out, but not seeing much difference except that now our magic items and equipment have been taken, and quick thinking on the part of a player has been thwarted not rewarded. I guess it's just a style difference. When I run my PnP game the players get a few hooks each week, or can pursue something else if they like. I don't really have any "vision" of an overarching campaign or "direction" that I want them to go in. I just describe what happens when they do their thing. Normally I'll have a handful of extra encounters on hand so I can be ready to wing it if they decide to go outside the three or four adventures I had prepared for them to choose from that week. Eventually I go along behind and link the loose ends here and there and incorporate past material into some of the new options to create the illusion of a campaign. If a player can throw me for a loop with an unforseen option, I let them know and reward them - then take a quick break to figure out what should happen next.
MoogleEmpMog 02-08-06, 12:19 PM	It's like any other train ride. The decision to complain or not is based on the scenery and the company. :rofl: I'm behind this 100%. I'd rather be 'railroaded' into a good story with good characters than be left to my own devices. In the op's case, though, it sounds more like a case of a confused GM, probably less experienced than at least one of his players, trying to wing it because he's flustered by their ideas, almost certainly exacerbated by having a split party. Split parties make everything more difficult, and my guess is that this GM is working overtime to try and cope with things as is.
Archmage_Vall 02-08-06, 09:53 PM	When I DM, I have a spell which can be cast by any PC regardless of class. It's meant to provide a way for them to say, "Railroad us please, we have no idea what to do." So far, they've only had to use it once, but it's always available at the cost of 1 action point. Action points are awarded for good roleplaying and/or coming up with creative solutions to problems. Detect Plot Divination/Illusion Any PC, lv 1 Components: V Range: Close enough Casting Time: Instantaneous Duration: As long as it takes Description: A giant, transluscent black arrow falls out of the sky (or ceiling) and points in the direction the PCs should go, at an object they should investigate, or at an NPC they should talk to, in order to advance the plot. Only PCs can see the arrow.
ShadowDragon8685 02-08-06, 10:00 PM	When I DM, I have a spell which can be cast by any PC regardless of class. It's meant to provide a way for them to say, "Railroad us please, we have no idea what to do." So far, they've only had to use it once, but it's always available at the cost of 1 action point. Action points are awarded for good roleplaying and/or coming up with creative solutions to problems. Detect Plot Divination/Illusion Any PC, lv 1 Components: V Range: Close enough Casting Time: Instantaneous Duration: As long as it takes Description: A giant, transluscent black arrow falls out of the sky (or ceiling) and points in the direction the PCs should go, at an object they should investigate, or at an NPC they should talk to, in order to advance the plot. Only PCs can see the arrow. Very CRPGish, but I like it. Sometimes, you can feel stuck, and the non-creative players may not have any idea what the hell to go do with themselves.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-09-06, 10:10 AM	I find that most DMs do railroad to some extend. I person find it extreemly hard to wing an entire adventure off the seat of my but, but have and can do it. I also find it discouraging when all the hooks point to the cemetary and the PCs decide to go explore the forest. But lets look at Jabberwookies example: If the PCS decided to go to the cemetary, then all is good. But if they decided that they were going to the forest instead, i may have them pass the graveyard on the way out of town, or maybe they pass some guys who smell like dead bodies pass them with shovels. Listen checks would be called for, and the PCs would over hear them compaining about their creepy boss who has them bring him fresh corpses everynight. If the PCs decide to pass that up and continue into the forest, then they will most likely encounter undead zombies and other EL approaite undead minions. And we'll say that they continue through the forest, cuase the players at this point are trying to prove something, or are being dicks. Well then they find the road, and may be ambushed by bandits, who are doing bandit like things on the road, becuase bandit lords are easy to make up with out being stated, or can be stated while your on the can. But lets say that they continue to travel ignoring the bandits and the necromancer, and they move on to the next town. If they talk to Point ears McElf Elf McPoints second cousin), he is looking for adventures to investagate a possible necromancer, and some undead sightings. If they talk to Sherif Guards-a-Lot, he too is concerned about the possiblity of a necromancer. But he hands full with a recent bandit problem on the public highways. He would be willing to pay handsomely for the PCs to assist with either. And will say that the PCs continue to wander north. Well then they suck, and hopefully just lost their DM. In your case though it does seem like your DM is a bit of Railroader. You may want to ask him why. And maybe reasure him that you entend to fallow his plot, but you want to do it in your own way. If not decide if the game is fun enough to put up with it. If it is not, then simply stop showing up for his games, and find one of your own. Alternatively you could offer to DM once this train has reached the station. Although i suspect that you are indeed and extreemly compotent DM, and a good. And as such your DMing skills are in high demand, and you do not get to play very often. I can certainly understand that, but trust me on this one, bad DMing is the most maddening force in the universe.
Bruunwald 02-09-06, 04:26 PM	Yeah, I suppose I should be a little more specific since it's kind of a matter of perception. In this particular game myself (Cleric of Ehlonna) and another player (Paladin of Pelor) were scouting out this keep. The other two players had decided to take a third slain party member back to town for raising. My inclination was to go with them and let the stubborn Paladin head off on his own like a fool, but the results of an Augury indicated I should go with him, etc... Most of the component parts of that don't smack of railroading, not in the strictest sense. It's metagaming. He's giving his information to NPCs who shouldn't know it. He's prepared them in ways they wouldn't normally be prepared in, to deal with things with which only he as a DM should know you have equipped yourself. On the other hand, he used this metagaming to coerse a direction, which means that overall, it smacks of railroading. But on the third hand (where did that come from?), it is sometimes hard to DM a dynamic group split up. It can take you far away from the prepared adventure. There's nothing wrong with affecting the world around you; that's the whole point of the game. But some cooperation is necessary to help the DM keep the game reasonably on track. Not every DM need be expected to have hundreds of multiple outcomes prepared for in every situation. Well, I do, but I don't expect anybody else to. :cool: It looks to me like he was trying to get you all back together because that's easier to deal with (and I'm playing Devil's advocate here), possibly even fairer to the other players. Yes? He may have flubbed a bit and made a bad decision or two to accomplish this, but if this is not a common occurrence, then it's probably worth it to forgive him and move on from it.