Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 01-11-06, 03:12 AM	I was wondering, whats the suggested route if all the traditional roles are taken (wizard, fighter, cleric, rogue)? I'm in a bit of a strain over a class to choose and have less than a week to make my final decision.
Nerpherder 01-11-06, 03:19 AM	If those 4 are taken then you should play something that suplements and/or complements one of the other characters, A Spell Theif (C. Adventure), Swashbuckler (C. Warrior), Favored Soul (C. Divine) or the HexBlade (C. Arcane) these four classes kind of fill the gap between each of the core 4 and can round out a party nicely.
Salookanana 01-11-06, 03:28 AM	Or if you mind not being the hero of the battle, try bard. They are fun and can do just about anything, as back up. They can help heal, bard song always helps, and are great for buffing up your team. And every party needs a front man for dealing with important people, so Diplomacy is your friend. Finally, having extra gold from performing around always helps. Your team may call you useless for a while, but then when you are surrounded by angry drow and you have a high Cha score and Diplomacy and Bluff, they will love you.
CzarGarrett 01-11-06, 10:17 AM	Personally, if all 4 are set, then a melee/other type class works well. That way, you have a secondary fighter, which can spread the damage taken away from just the front line fighter, at lower levels, where casters aren't quite as powerful as others, another damage dealing character works well. The additional portion can lessen the burden off one of the other 3 classes- skills, healing, other casting, etc.
RedWizard 01-11-06, 10:59 AM	If you have enough front liners (You should never have just one) then wizards work great in pairs. You can trade spells between one another to suppliment your spell books and have a greater range of utility for the party. At low levels, a couple of spells a day get used up real fast and there is not much variety.
Paradisio 01-14-06, 02:16 AM	On an opposite note, what would be a good choice if you have no idea what anyone else is? (New campaign and we are making our characters prior to the first session.)
ressurrector 01-14-06, 02:46 AM	If you don't know what everyone is going to be yet, cleric is a good bet. Personally, in this situation, I have about 3 characters thought out to play. Last time this happened they were cleric, monk/sorc, and rogue.
Paradisio 01-14-06, 03:00 AM	Thats what I had in mind, but he is a running a campaign from dungeon magazine and needs to know what everyone will be before we start, since each class apparently has its own story arcs.
ressurrector 01-14-06, 03:07 AM	Cleric, Druid, Bard Or a hybrid of melee/caster The Cleric/Druid/Bard are the truly self-contained classes, you can heal, you can self-buff, and you have better non-magical combat potential than a wiz/sorc.
Paradisio 01-18-06, 12:36 AM	Anyone else have any input on situtation where I don't know the classes of the other players? I'm kinda running out of time and am really not up to playing a cleric or druid (again) and i'm not really a bard fan.
Minauros 01-18-06, 12:43 AM	Thought about a monk? They have some really great abilities that make them different enough to be very unique from the other characters, but in a pinch they can fill in other class roles. (Fighters and Rogues particularly.)
Paradisio 01-18-06, 01:21 AM	I've thought about it, but the campaign is going to have a lot of tough combat (considering will we be levelling up a minimum of once a session, even at higher levels) and I just don't think the monk will stand up.
Eital 01-18-06, 10:35 AM	Go for ranger...specialized in archery maybe, to help you survive a little more... or, TWF with a few lvls of Barbarian to add some more damage to the mix.
Particle 01-18-06, 11:36 AM	The perfect supplemments would either be a Bard (often called the perfect 5th man) or a Druid. Druids have spells and can Wildshape, their skills are ok. Or be a multiclassed Ranger/Fighter/Archer PRCs. Archers are usefull if you already have melee covered. What books are allowed and whats your view about multiclassing/PrCing? Maybe a Gish (Fighting mage). And if Eberron is allowed, go Artificer. If Complete Adventurer is allowed, think about Scout. Skills are good, combat abilties are ok too. You would be kind of a secondary combatant. Oh, and the Gish base class, the Psychic Warrior from the SRD. For pure and simple power go either Artificer or Druid. And what to play when you dont know what that others will be and you have no guess at all? Cleric or Druid or Artificer. Or, depending on starting lvl, some type of good melee fighter with selfhealing a abilties and utility (basically, a lot of PrCs with spellcasting). But the other 3 are generally better if you know nothing, having 4 Druids hurts the GM, having 4 meleeists hurts the whole group...
serow_#R 01-18-06, 11:56 AM	i would recommend either psychic warrior or ranger but i know i had a lot of fun with my multiclass rogue 2/cleric X :D
Elbethamore 01-18-06, 01:23 PM	If you're going in blind (don't know what everyone else is doing) then really you just have to pick something and cross your fingers. You could pick something very versatile, but could find that there are still some wholes if other people didn't happen to fall into the right classes. Given that, if you're not interested in being a divine caster, you could go for rogue or scout; fighter, barbarian, or other melee type; or arcane caster (I'd suggest warlock or sorcerer if you're going to have a lot of encounters per day. The extra spells/unlimited eldritch blast could help you last longer).
WarColonel 01-18-06, 03:29 PM	If your looking at a group of the four core, a scout compliments both the rogue (flanker) and fighter (secondary damage-taker). Though noone has mentioned it and it is one of the more hated classes, the paladin also makes an excellent fighter and secondary healer, and can make up for a missing fighter. A rogue that specializes in the opposite skills of your first (talking vrs. doing skills) can specialize, and the spellthief is great to have versus NPC spellcasters.
The Voice of Sauron 01-18-06, 11:09 PM	If all the four standard roles are covered, I've found that bards and paladins are great "5th man" characters, with one caveat: the paladin should avoid taking the same feats as the fighter as much as possible. That way, if the other side has terrain or other advantages that neutralize the fighter's most potent feat combinations, the party's not completely hosed (of course, you could do that even more easily by playing a second fighter, but the paladin's other talents make him a better 5th party member). On a related note, no paladin should be lacking the feats Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge (special mount+lance+mounted charge+smite evil=absolutely incredible killing power even at mid levels; if you really want to powergame this setup, Improved Critical (lance) is also quite potent). Leadership is also good to have, since you're likely to have at least a decent Charisma score. These are two areas where the paladin is, mechanicaly, at least the equal of the fighter (if not superior), and gives your character more of a role than simply as the backup meat shield. I've never personally played a bard or seen one played well (most bards I've seen end up looking like Elan from Order of the Stick, only dumber :rolleyes: ), from a mechanics standpoint I can see how they're useful. Since Charisma does a lot of the heavy lifting for bards, Leadership also offers the potential of bringing along another cleric or fighter-type, along with Bluff and Diplomacy for talking your way through tight spots. Another idea is to play a wizard as a 5th character, then work closely with the party's other arcanist. The Magic and Spells forum has lots of VERY powerful arcane spell combinations, and with two wizards or a wizard and a sorcerer working together, you can literally get those combinations off in half the time and use them more than once per day. :mage: Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but again, Leadership can also make having another low hit point character less of a potential liability to the party by bringing along a low(er)-level cleric with the Healing domain and Brew Potion.
Elemental_Elf 01-19-06, 12:31 AM	Go for a Halfling/Gnome Ranger who specializes in Riding a Riding Dog. It'd be pretty cool and as always with the Ranger, you can choose to either specialize as you see fit or generalize. Or you could go with a Wizard who specializes in making magical items. You'd always be useful to your group as well as having a unique way of controling the group, hehe. :P Gish is always a good idea as well.
grelna 01-19-06, 01:27 AM	Two thoughts: Bards are not even close to my most favored class (that would be wizard), but they are a lot more versatile than most people give them credit for. Give a bard the Battle Caster feat and a single level in Fighter and Spellsword (C. Warrior), and he can wear medium armor and use a light shield with no chance of spell failure. Add in self-buffing spells like Heroism and your bard can hold his own pretty well. Not that bards make better fighters than fighters, but the point is that they can do almost everything that other classes can do: cure, sneak, fight, spells, whatever. Sure, other classes are better at each of those things, but bards can do it all, plus they have Bardic Music and Bardic Lore. It's seriously handy to have someone in the party who just knows stuff and can influence people. As a bard, you probably wouldn't be the combat monster of the party, but out of combat you would likely be the one everyone looked to to be the party's public face. However, if the lure of combat runs too strong to resist, play a fighter or barbarian or paladin. Seriously, at low levels, it's a bit much to expect that a single fighter and cleric can stand toe to toe with everything the party is likely to face. The mage should never see combat close up (apologies to gish-lovers) and the rogue shouldn't be toe-to-toe, but be flanking the enemy. Rogues can't flank throughout combat unless fighter-types keep the enemies' attention riveted. Just be sure to play something completely different from the other fighter, so you're not competing to see who is best at whatever. That's a mug's game. If the other fighter is a two weapon specialist, play a grappler, or archer, or a paladin with divine feats that allow her to use that substandard turning ability in battle and can heal in a pinch.
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 01:38 AM	Well I do somewhat like this one. Fighter Feats: Improved Crit (falchion), Weapon Spec (falchion), Two-weapon fighting, Improved Two-weapon fighting, Greater Two-Weap?.. and he managed to afford 2 falchions with speed... >< This would only be if you really like 2-weapons. At level 16... Base attack of 16. Your crit range is 15-20 with x2 damage. 3 Attacks with main hand + 1 due to Speed. 3 Attacks with off hand +1 due to Speed. Two weapon penalties of only -2. It's not bad, but not the greatest build. (I'd be crazy enough to play it!) Or.. since a monks flurry of blows now stacks with two weapon fighting?....
Paradisio 01-19-06, 01:45 AM	Well I told the DM I'm going bard, It seemed necessary for the party since he said there was going to be a lot of out of combat situations. Now I need to think of a build, any ideas?
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 01:58 AM	Take up skills that no one else can really do well. Dipolmacy and definately Bardic Knowledge! (very, very important). Lower levels I'd go support magic and ranged fighter. If only using core races, I think halfling/gnome is your best bet. With varient, there is lots to look for. *Bluff and other charisma based skills as well (how can I forget them) **Yet other add on to not double post Go for a Halfling/Gnome Ranger who specializes in Riding a Riding Dog. It'd be pretty cool and as always with the Ranger, you can choose to either specialize as you see fit or generalize. Or you could go with a Wizard who specializes in making magical items. You'd always be useful to your group as well as having a unique way of controling the group, hehe. :P Gish is always a good idea as well. Could use a raptor instead :D :D Halfling riding a Deinonychus, rawr!
Paradisio 01-19-06, 02:07 AM	I was thinking half elf, for the racial substitution level and the diplomacy bonus. We also get a +1 free level adjustment if there is another good bard race/template.
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 02:15 AM	Well, I like the idea of a permanantly reduced pixie as player O.o For a 4 level adjustment, not including the good bard race/template free level adjustment. *drool* For starters, what version of DnD? Might clear up a bit. If 3.5, you'll probably have more AC than the fighters... well everyone... and more SR
Paradisio 01-19-06, 02:17 AM	No +4, we are starting at level 1 (with a free 1 LA) It's 3.5 D&D.
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 02:29 AM	*snaps* A lvl 1 campaign XD Aasimar has a favored class of Paladin, with +2 Wis and +2 Char. they have +1 level adjustment DR 5/acid 5/cold 5/electricity They are Planetouched Outsiders, plus with 1 daylight per day DR is nice for a +1 adjustment, but racial +2 to spot and listen... though favored class doesn't mean you have to be one. Charisma boost :P
grelna 01-19-06, 02:41 AM	Well I told the DM I'm going bard, It seemed necessary for the party since he said there was going to be a lot of out of combat situations. Now I need to think of a build, any ideas? Well, how about the aforementioned Bard/Fighter/Spellsword combo with levels of Dragon Disciple, and the Draconic Breath feat out of Complete Arcane. Armored, scaled, immensely strong, spell-using, fire-breathing bard. Yeah! Oh wait, that doesn't help out of combat, does it? [EDIT - My bad, forgot that Draconic Breath requires a level in sorceror. Sorry] Um, Bard/Mindbender (Complete Arcane)? Seems like a natural fit for a bard, and even a single level in Mindbender gives you telepathy and a spellcasting level. The later stuff is really nice too.
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 02:49 AM	Taking levels in Dragon Disciple would probably not help out of combat that much... Psion levels... mindbender would help if the DM allows it, but Thrallherd is also a pretty good one too. Howabout a Psion Wilder... or any Psion class for that matter
nastynate 01-19-06, 02:58 AM	A druid can be a fantastic addition to a "complete" party. Their animal companion (in time) becomes a front-line warrior in it's own right, and you can fill in as a blaster, a healer, or another melee fighter yourself. Granted druids are almost a party unto themselves, but you cannot deny that a PC who can fill in anywhere is extremely useful. Paladins are great when you expect to fight many evil or undead opponents, bards are always helpful (though not very powerful), and a good archer is nice, but druids take the cake; go with the hippie.
tak3thatback 01-19-06, 03:02 AM	...But Bards get the all-around Bardic Knowledge skill. Which seems to be one of the best.
RedWizard 01-19-06, 11:05 AM	Another idea is to play a wizard as a 5th character, then work closely with the party's other arcanist. The Magic and Spells forum has lots of VERY powerful arcane spell combinations, and with two wizards or a wizard and a sorcerer working together, you can literally get those combinations off in half the time and use them more than once per day. I totally agree. In addition to the above benefits of having two mages in the party, with 2 wizards you double the range of prepared spells per day and the two can copy spells from one another to supplement the base 2 spells per level.
Elbethamore 01-20-06, 09:40 AM	Apparently people continued talking about cool builds that didn't involve bards after you told them you were going bard... I'd take a look at the Seeker of the Song or Sublime Chord PrC's from the Complete Arcane. They're my favorite straight bard PrC's. Virtuoso from CAdv is another choice, although I'm not as big a fan of that one. There are some other good multiclass PrC's as well, notably Fochlucan Lyrist (bard/druid) from CAdv.
Moon-Lancer 01-20-06, 10:08 AM	Ok, this is a awesome bard build, if your going to be going to be playing alot of levels with it Bard 8/ *Solder of light 2/ sublime chord 2/spellsword 1/ ek 7 Why is this build awesome? It gets a 17 bab and level 9 wizard sorcerer spells via sublime chord. Use spellsword and eldritch knight to enhance the sublime chords spells, not the bards. The best race i think for this build is kilorian from races of the wild. They get a smite attack that can be used with any spell and any weapon and effects a large ranged of creatures and they don’t need to be evil. Kilorians are fey, so it goes well with a bard, and they are not humanoids. This also does not give a level adjustment, so if you want you could add a template of some kind. *edit* almost forgot, kilorians dont age past middle age, and never die of old age. Dont look at the picture in the book, it really isent truthfull. Kilorians look like half elves, and it says this in the text. Solder of light is in deities and demigods. If that doesn’t work, use a paladin and see if you cant use the paladin of freedom in complete arcana (not arcane). Basically any class that gives you divine grace will work that gets all armor and martial weapons. This will let you add cha to all your saves This is a rocking gish build, so spells that enhance your meilee is suggested, along with battle filed disruption, and a few attack spells once you start getting wizard spells. sublime chord will let you use a bardic music in increase your caster level depending on your perform check. May expand on this list but good spells in sc are Dolorous Blow and Ruin Delvers Fortune Feats could be, Combat expert dodge elusive target karmatic strike This build requires no feats, but does require some skill points. Skills needed, is a higher then average con, perhaps some strangth, and cha as high as you can push it. Maybe use a templit that adds to your cha (only dod this if its a free templit. dont do it if you will loose out on levels) Story wise, the charicter could tell stories of the fey so people dont stop beleaving in them, and thus keeping them alive.